Overall, I have to say, I've really liked the new classes thus far. This thread shouldn't read as an indictment of the new classes, and I'm aware it's easier to make a gripe thread than it is to make a congratulatory thread.
That being said, I don't think the right ability scores are being used for either the summoner or the Witch.
In the summoner's case, I don't think Charisma makes sense. If a summoner is shaping his eidolon out of the raw soup of creation, or even if he's simply altering an existing creature, it seems that he would be more about comprehending the creature's anatomy than he would be about using force of personality to meet his ends. More importantly, it's very mechanically boring. The game already has 2 partial casters and 1 full caster using charisma, and one of them has the exact same progression of spells/day and spells/known as the summoner. It feels a bit repetitive. Out of the published 11 classes, only 1 uses int mod for casting, and, unlike wisdom or charisma, int doesn't yet have a partial caster (and if you were going to make one, this'd probably be it).
The witch actually seems worse off. Her source of power is supposed to be a 'pact with an otherworldly power'. That bargaining sounds like charisma far more than it does int. The character is bargaining, which deals with force of personality. On the other hand, the character communes with her familiar, which sounds like it deals with focus and meditation more than it does memorization or knowledge (after all, it's the familiar's knowledge, not the witch's, that determines her spells). This could mean wisdom. It seems like int is the only not-viable casting stat for the witch. Mechanically, this isn't as boring as the summoner, since int isn't overused, but it's worth thinking about. Hell, I wouldnt' even mind seeing a spontaneous wisdom caster.
In my own game, I'm already going to be houseruling that my summoner can play int, as cha makes no sense with his concept. Has anyone else seen this problem? Does anyone agree? Politely disagree?
I personally like Charisma for the summoner, but it's more a flavor thing really. I didn't imagine the eidolon as my friend as much a planar spawned creature bent by my will forced to do my bidding. Only problem I have with it is that most of their spells are buffs or conjurations without DCs, so you're better off making a well rounded fighter to give you more to do while your pet fights. And then there's the level 20 ability that changes your stats, was happy when pathfinder did away with that for druid, would prefer not to see it come back, but again, it's a level 20 ability.
Witch I though was going to be wisdom when I saw it, was surprised by int, but it's prepared arcane spell casting, so I think either fits just fine, and would be easy to house rule either way. I know I've been playing a charisma based sorcerer and calling it a witch for a couple years now.
I'm going to have to agree with Velderan--the witch feels like a Wisdom or Charisma-based caster to me, not an Intelligence-based caster. Likewise, the summoner feels like it should be Int-based, like a wizard.
I'm going to have to agree with Velderan--the witch feels like a Wisdom or Charisma-based caster to me, not an Intelligence-based caster. Likewise, the summoner feels like it should be Int-based, like a wizard.
I second the cha for the witch. All of the ones I have ever read about did have powerful personalities. They should also have all the social skills as class abilities.
After reading the summoner again it does seem like something he figured out which would lead to intelligence
I like CHA as the summoner, he's basically negotiating with an eidelon. I don't take it as he's building the eidelon himself out of primal soup of energy. I feel like he's more convincing it to work with him, talking it into taking the shape he wants, etc. It's a partnership, so CHA is just fine.
I do agree with the Witch though, I really really feel like the witch should be wisdom based, communing with her familiar for more wisdom, etc. I think witch and wise woman are often used interchangeably, really depending on the way they act to others. A friendly 'witch' is usually called 'the village wise woman', while an unfriendly one is usually 'that evil hag'. But wisdom is still the big thing for both, not brains.
I'd like to see a bit more of the commanding eidolon nature, as it is now it's ill defined, probably intentionally to allow for more character options, but more to the point I want to feeblemind the summoner and have his eidolon go on a berserk uncontrolled killing rampage.
I like CHA as the summoner, he's basically negotiating with an eidelon. I don't take it as he's building the eidelon himself out of primal soup of energy. I feel like he's more convincing it to work with him, talking it into taking the shape he wants, etc. It's a partnership, so CHA is just fine.
I do agree with the Witch though, I really really feel like the witch should be wisdom based, communing with her familiar for more wisdom, etc. I think witch and wise woman are often used interchangeably, really depending on the way they act to others. A friendly 'witch' is usually called 'the village wise woman', while an unfriendly one is usually 'that evil hag'. But wisdom is still the big thing for both, not brains.
You are right. It does make sense with your explanation, and me having reread the fluff.
MDT stop making me change my mind :).
I like CHA as the summoner, he's basically negotiating with an eidelon. I don't take it as he's building the eidelon himself out of primal soup of energy. I feel like he's more convincing it to work with him, talking it into taking the shape he wants, etc. It's a partnership, so CHA is just fine.
I do agree with the Witch though, I really really feel like the witch should be wisdom based, communing with her familiar for more wisdom, etc. I think witch and wise woman are often used interchangeably, really depending on the way they act to others. A friendly 'witch' is usually called 'the village wise woman', while an unfriendly one is usually 'that evil hag'. But wisdom is still the big thing for both, not brains.
You are right. It does make sense with you explanation, and me having reread the fluff.
MDT stop making me change my mind :).
LOL
The only problem with having both the summoner and witch as Cha-based casters is that there are a slew of them in the PRPG already--sorcerer, bard, paladin, oracle. Both shouldn't be Cha-based, and I feel that Charisma is more the witch's domain than the summoner's, which is why I feel that the ability scores should be flip-flopped.
I like CHA as the summoner, he's basically negotiating with an eidelon. I don't take it as he's building the eidelon himself out of primal soup of energy. I feel like he's more convincing it to work with him, talking it into taking the shape he wants, etc. It's a partnership, so CHA is just fine.
Actually, according to the description Jason gave before release, he sort of is crafting it (though, that's subject to change). I don't really see how he's convincing it. There are no social skills involved (like there is for a druid to control his pet). He sort of just...makes it happen. Converting it to intelligence means, to me, that he gains a greater understanding of the eidolon's nature and capabilities and so that he is able to bend its form with greater refinement.
Actually, according to the description Jason gave before release, he sort of is crafting it (though, that's subject to change). I don't really see how he's convincing it. There are no social skills involved (like there is for a druid to control his pet). He sort of just...makes it happen. Converting it to intelligence means, to me, that he gains a greater understanding of the eidolon's nature and capabilities and so that he is able to bend its form with greater refinement.I like CHA as the summoner, he's basically negotiating with an eidelon. I don't take it as he's building the eidelon himself out of primal soup of energy. I feel like he's more convincing it to work with him, talking it into taking the shape he wants, etc. It's a partnership, so CHA is just fine.
According to the fluff the summon already exist as an outsider, and the Eidolon forms a special relationship with it that eventually allows him to bond in a way that makes it stronger.
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I'd go with Int for the summoner. IMO, he is the guy who studies the alignment of the planes and planets, searches for lost knowledge for powerful rituals and stuff.
For the witch, I think that Wis better fits the idea of communing with her familiar. But CHA is also fine, since the class description says that she "draws her magic from a pact"...
I kinda am leaning towards INT based for the Summoner and WIS or possibly CHA based for the Witch. Even if that leads the summoner to be a prepared caster.
Brian
I think that the Summoner make sense, at least to me. It just seems to go that the person controlling these powerful creatures should have an incredible presence in his own right. As for the Witch...I was a bit surprised that they were Intelligence based, since I'd probably go Wisdom or Charisma. Wisdom makes more sense to me, but I don't mind them being Intelligence based, since they're described as making pacts. *shrugs*
I like the idea of Int for the summoner and Wisdom for the witch. The witch could be a wise women drawing on folklore and common sense for her magic.
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I really like the Witch as an Int based caster. Now, part of it is that I do want some balance across the board for each of the casting stats and currently we have a heavy tilt towards Charisma. But, honestly, I really feal like Int hits the right spot on this class. I love the way this class synergies its crunch with its fluff.
I am warming to the Summoner quickly. That is the one class I could see maybe switching over to a prepared Wis caster, however then it is a Druid Variant. This way it is completely it's own thing and that I think is very important.
If this were a democracy (which we all know it isn't) I would "vote" for them to stay the same. Since it is not a voting democracy I will merely add my voice to a chorus and blindly believe that it has some influence on the final outcome.
I could see the Witch as any of the three mental stats for casting. I liked the concept in one of the speculation threads of Witches choosing between three "paths", each with their own abilities and casting stat (Crone = Int, Mother = Wis, Maiden = Cha), although I know why that wasn't done (too complicated).
Summoner works well as Cha to me, but I definitely see the "wow there's a lot of Charisma casters now!" argument, especially with Oracle and probably Inquisitor being Charisma-based. I wouldn't mind a change to Int based casting for the Summoner.
I kinda am leaning towards INT based for the Summoner and WIS or possibly CHA based for the Witch. Even if that leads the summoner to be a prepared caster.
Brian
Why not an INT based spontaneous caster? I did not know that there is a strict equation between INT and prepared caster... Just do it - and add the fluff to explain it :
"Using his uncanny intelligence to visualise complicated series of patterns, the summoner draws his power from his ability to train his mind to act as a planar compass, a special key to the other worlds, redirecting and controling magical energy"
Just because it has not bee done yet is not an argument it should never be done. Introducing a new class seems a good time for innovation.
I fully exptected the witch to cast off of Wisdom. I never would have guessed Intelligence for the casting stat. Seems off to me, Wisdom (or Charisma I guess) would fit a lot better, but I can live with it as-is.
I don't see an issue with either classes casting stat at this time, in the same way that I saw no issue with the Oracle's casting stat. I think arguments can be made for most of the classes about any casting stat if you want to make them. I find the another arcane caster based on Charsima agreeable, and another caster at all based on intelligence very agreeable.
I'll throw in my 2 coppers worth.
Witches - when I think of witches I tend to come up with two stereotypes - the old crones giving the poisoned apples to the fair maidens and cursing them to an everlasting slumber, or the old good-wife who used her knowledge of herbs and plants to help with births, fevers, and other forms of basic health care.
Now, the former is definitely Int. based, as she represents the dark side of witchcraft, using her fell knowledge to seduce, enchant, and bewitch others. (You could argue Cha. at this, but I always envision the crone with old tome at hand mixing and preparing the "spell" she uses to get her way, hence Int.)
The latter uses common sense and wisdom passed down through the ages to heal and treat the sick, as well as those occasional love potions on the side.
In either instance, both are extremely appropriate choices for predominate stat (Int. or Wis.), and it will be this way in my home game (player will choose their stat, and once chosen at first level, that will be their main stat for the duration).
As for the summoner - while they may need to know about the aspects of the cosmos to summon their eidolon, what they really get their juice from is their force of will to summon, bind and control the eidolon they choose. For that, Cha. is their main stat. You can be as intelligent as you want, but if you got the personality force of a dead turnip whatever you end up summoning will make you into a nice meal. Now, you could argue that a summoner could use their Int. to create strong magical binds rather than using raw force of will to get their will obeyed, in which case the flavor of the eidolon goes from servant serving a charismatic and dominating master to magically bound creature only serving because of the magical restraints placed on them by the summoner, who might rebel should those bonds ever slip.
I will let the player choose their main stat with the summoner as well, and how they gained their eidolon as well. One will be more fun to mess with the player for their summoned pet, but, it will not take away their abilities (narrow breakages of their bindings and the like).
Both of these are tough calls, and everyone here has made valid points. Personally, I see why Int makes sense for a Witch, but Wis or Cha would, I imagine, be equally logical.
I don't really see Charisma for the Summoner making as much sense, but it depends on the character--does he have a natural connection to this extraplanar creature, or is it something he studied and researched? Probably could be either, but my knee-jerk reaction is the latter, so maybe the Summoner should be Int.
This is related and has been touched on, but never explicitly discussed, so I'm going to go there--I don't see, off the top of my head, why the Summoner should even be a spontaneous caster. Their main magic focus is their Eidolon, and the process of summoning, augmenting, and controlling this extraplanar creature seems more "wizard" than "sorceror" to me. It seems logical to make them prepare their spells in advance like a wizard, without hearing some justification for why a Summoner should cast like a sorceror or bard. At least at my gaming table, being a spontaneous caster has always been considered a huge boon, and I'm more concerned with everyone and their brother not preparing spells than I am with how many classes are or aren't sharing the same prime requisite (pragmatically speaking, what difference does that really make anyway?).
Oddly enough, given my previous paragraph, there's a case to be made that a witch shouldn't have to prepare her spells, though the FamiliarBook gives an explanation for why it is the way it is. It may be a case of balance, since the witch has a pretty impressive spell list overall, without even counting the spares from the familiar.
I don't see an issue with either classes casting stat at this time, in the same way that I saw no issue with the Oracle's casting stat. I think arguments can be made for most of the classes about any casting stat if you want to make them. I find the another arcane caster based on Charsima agreeable, and another caster at all based on intelligence very agreeable.
Arguments for most classes can be made, but I think it's pertinent in this case. The summoner, for example, is going to seem like an odd duck if he knows nothing about the planes or, even, chooses to use int as a dump stat. Then his competence with social skills will seem strange. A witch is largely about influence and personality, or intuition. She does not, to me, seem to be about book learning and study.
And, if we switch them, won't that be equally agreeable (or even go wis for witch)? From a mechanics perspective, I find another character with charisma based bard-level casting a bit redundant.
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I am another for the Summoner and Witch having their casting stat switched.
The Summoner is described as studying the nature of his eidolon. He learns more about the eidolon he has chosen to bond. He doesn't cajole, threaten, or implore his eidolon to grow anoter set of arms. He studies various creatures of the planes and determines his eidolon would be more effective with four arms. There is nothing charismatic about what he does.
The witch is very charismatic. He makes pacts with powerful forces, cajoles, threatens or implores them to grant him power through his familiar. He uses spells and hexes to compel and enchant others. He works with other witches (or hags) to form a coven. He can disguise himself. All of these suggest (okay, scream) Charisma. I agree that Wisdom is also a better choice than Intelligence, but I feel that Charisma most closely represents the concept of the Witch.
All this being said, the Summoner and Witch are great class concepts. I look forward to playing both of them.
I don't see an issue with either classes casting stat at this time, in the same way that I saw no issue with the Oracle's casting stat. I think arguments can be made for most of the classes about any casting stat if you want to make them. I find the another arcane caster based on Charsima agreeable, and another caster at all based on intelligence very agreeable.Arguments for most classes can be made, but I think it's pertinent in this case. The summoner, for example, is going to seem like an odd duck if he knows nothing about the planes or, even, chooses to use int as a dump stat. Then his competence with social skills will seem strange. A witch is largely about influence and personality, or intuition. She does not, to me, seem to be about book learning and study.
And, if we switch them, won't that be equally agreeable (or even go wis for witch)? From a mechanics perspective, I find another character with charisma based bard-level casting a bit redundant.
I can see witch as wisdom from a fluff angle. However there is no way from a game balance angle. Mystic Theurge with one casting stat? That would be pretty wobbly. Plus, that adds to the witch's high will, and that doesn't fit with the sorcerer and wizard having good will but no wisdom casting stat.
Witch with charisma and summoner with intelligence I could see. But witch with wisdom? Then the class would be a step closer to druid.
I can see witch as wisdom from a fluff angle. However there is no way from a game balance angle. Mystic Theurge with one casting stat? That would be pretty wobbly. Plus, that adds to the witch's high will, and that doesn't fit with the sorcerer and wizard having good will but no wisdom casting stat.Witch with charisma and summoner with intelligence I could see. But witch with wisdom? Then the class would be a step closer to druid.
Why would the witch want to go to mystic theurge anyway...she'd lose her class features which would mean her familiar would not advance and she wouldn't gain her hexes...its a pointless exercise.
And a witch should have a tie to nature so yes wisdom would work and she would be the viable alternative to the druid.
and with reference to the post below..I'd have no problem with that...in fact it would make the witch unique amongst casters and that would be a good thing
Personally, i dont have any issue with the Summoner, charisma is the stat used to force your will on other beings, supernatural or mundane.
With the Witch though, i think you should make the caster stat something you choose when creating the character, as it just has too many different concepts, from the old wise (wo)man to the young, charismatic witch-in-traning.
This would also give us a more flexible caster, that can suit both the need of the players and that of the GM.
Why would the witch want to go to mystic theurge anyway...she'd lose her class features which would mean her familiar would not advance and she wouldn't gain her hexes...its a pointless exercise.
And a witch should have a tie to nature so yes wisdom would work and she would be the viable alternative to the druid.
and with reference to the post below..I'd have no problem with that...in fact it would make the witch unique amongst casters and that would be a good thing
What does the witch lose if her familiar doesn't advance? A couple more points of AC and bonus spells? You might as well make that argument for the wizard's familiar. The witch's familiar gives her two more spells per level gained, and if that didn't carry over to prestige classes it would be a very poor design decision.
The hexes, yes, would be a loss. But the witch when combined with a cleric as a MT could be a healer with an amazing control scene as well, and all with just one stat? The hexes are awesome, but they're not the only thing the witch can do, she IS a complete caster. A witch/druid would be just as scary.
How are witches nature-inclined by the way? They communicate with mysterious powers for their spells, not nature. Since they don't even know what the heck they're using for gaining their spells, I have a lot of trouble seeing them as "wise". Charismatic, or even studious would be a better fit.
Ok lets look at the practicalities.
The requirements to become a mystic theurge are...
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion)3 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
So the Witch would qualify for that at third level and go into the class at 4th.
now where does that leave her.
Firstly it reduces her class skills from 11 to 4.
then as she goes through the ten levels of MT her familiar is stuck on Int 7 and +2 to natural AC..so when she is facing 13th level creatures she still has a 3rd level familiar who will generally be toast on round one.
any levels of another spell casing class she takes before entering MT only makes things worse for the familiar...
then off course she would lose 3 normal and two major hexes and never get the levels to have the grand hexes at all even if she put all her levels into witch after finishing MT..in addition her familiar would never progress past +7ac and 12 INT...
so 20 levels including MT and what do you end up with..a witch casting as 20th level but with a nerfed familiar and hexes and one other class at level 11..or alternatively a witch 13 with only two hexes/other class 17 but only with the powers of a 7th level character in that class...in otherwords a classic glass cannon
No, the witch does not cast divine spells. She casts arcane spells, some of which can be found in divine spellcaster lists (just like the Bard). You still need to multiclass to take levels in Mystic Theurge.
I agree that the Witch should be CHA based, even WIS makes sense.
I don't really see Charisma + Summoner either, INT would be a better option.
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After re-reading the fluff I have to go with int for the summoner. It sounds to me like his knowledge and understand of summoning magic is what is causing the increase in his eidolon's ability. The eidolon has chosen to bond with the wizard for reasons of his own, probably more power and access to the material plane, but it is the summoners knowledge and understanding of the arcane principles behind summoning magics that allow him to bring more and more of the eidolon onto the material plane.
While many who dabble in the arcane become adept at beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes, none are more skilled at it than the summoner. This practitioner of the arcane arts forms a close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolon, who gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning. Over time, the two become linked, eventually even sharing a shard of the same soul. But this power does not come without a price: the summoner’s spells and powers are limited due to his time spent enhancing the power and exploring the nature of his eidolon.
Role: Summoners spend much of their time exploring the arcane arts, be it while traveling the world or spending months studying the nature of their eidolons. While their power comes from within, summoners rely heavily on their eidolon companions whenever they find themselves in dangerous situations. While a summoner and his eidolon function as individuals, their true power lies in what they can accomplish together.
I bolded the sections that specifically stood out to me. The summoner becomes more powerful through study and understand of both arcane principles( knowledge(arcana) ) or the nature of eidolons( knowledge( planes ) ). Seems like a pretty clear cut case of an intelligence based spellcaster to me, despite it being a spontaneous caster.
Anyone who doesn't think Charisma works for Summoners needs to go read The Demon Prince of Karanada (one of the later Belgariad books), specifically the chapter where Belgarath is posing as a demon summoner and gets into a summoned monster duel with a real demon summoner.
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Anyone who doesn't think Charisma works for Summoners needs to go read The Demon Prince of Karanada (one of the later Belgariad books), specifically the chapter where Belgarath is posing as a demon summoner and gets into a summoned monster duel with a real demon summoner.
That depends entirely on how the summoning is described. Summoners work differently in a variety of settings and if you tried to hold to all of them, you'd end up with each stat being a valid candidate for the summoner. Please try to keep it to the information released on summoners in the released PFRPG material rather than pulling things from your other favorite fiction sources. It doesn't really help as I could name a few books with summoners that hit different stats as well.
Ah I was wondering when Belgarath would come up...The Word and The Way is more sorcery than book magic..you either have it or you dont..so yes Belgaraths power comes from his Charisma definitely..and I've had no problems with the summoners stat.
I just feel the variable stat for witches would make them unique.. I'll probably house rule it as such anyway.I'm all for giving players choices..and my Table top group don't like prestige classes so the MT problem should not come up
For all the talk about the Summoner making pacts, etc. it seems odd that for such a CHA based caster it has no class skill for Bluff, Diplomacy or Sense Motive.
I for one would like these included as class skills (it fits the fluff) and a rise of 4 ranks per level.
And I haven't a problem with the driving stat being INT, especially if the class has no interpersonal skills!
No, the witch does not cast divine spells. She casts arcane spells, some of which can be found in divine spellcaster lists (just like the Bard). You still need to multiclass to take levels in Mystic Theurge.
If that is truely the case then going the MT rout is even more suspect..but I'd like to see someone give me a build that disproves it..I'm always open to persuasion
Please try to keep it to the information released on summoners in the released PFRPG material rather than pulling things from your other favorite fiction sources.
Fine. I'll nitpick your selected quote to death instead.
skilled
Are only int-based casters skilled? Someone please tell the Rogue and Bard that.
who gains power as the summoner becomes more proficient at his summoning
...
exploring
...
exploring the arcane arts
These have nothing to do with intelligence.
spending months studying the nature of their eidolons
This could be done via either intelligence (scientific method) or charisma (eidolons can speak, after all).
Now, some sections you didn't highlight:
beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes
Beckoning implies being persuasive or having some sort of positive reinforcement to the call, which implies charisma rather than intelligence.
their power comes from within
"Power from within" has always been charisma-based in 3rd edition.
their true power lies in what they can accomplish together
This implies cooperation which, again, implies charisma rather than intelligence.
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Interesting. If I want a skilled bard or rogue I always have a high intelligence. I suppose you're saying it's your dump stat when you are going for a skillful rogue or bard? For some reason saying "bard" or "rogue" does not remind me of a dullard. In fact it entirely depends on your character concept.
"Beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes"
beckoning
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
1. to signal, summon, or direct by a gesture of the head or hand.
2. to lure; entice.
–noun
3. a nod, gesture, etc., that signals, directs, summons, indicates agreement, or the like.
Wow... that doesn't really support your charisma argument much. #2 to lure; entice might. But you could simply say you are offering something the creature wants as saying you are whispering sweet nothings in the creatures ear. Sounds more like the summoner is using his power to invite an interested creature into aiding him, not holding a 4 day long negotiation.( I am not saying that you couldn't run a summoner that way, just saying that it is not implied by the term "beckoning". )
I'll give you eidolons can speak. However, with a 7 intelligence, it is highly unlikely they know much about the inner workings of eidolon physiology/existence. Ask your below average human the intricate details of how he exists and what causes him to be capable of living. I bet you won't get a very helpful answer.
I'll give you "power from within" has always been cha based. Is that enough to lock it into cha? I'd hope not. Otherwise we'd never have evolved to 3.p.
'What they can accomplish together' does imply cooperation. Are you saying that no one will cooperate with the dwarven barbarian with the 6 cha? We have one of those in our group. While he sucks at diplomacy and we have to tolerate his more belligerent moments, the group doesn't just kick him to the curb and go their separate way. You don't have to have a high cha to cooperate with people. The eidolon has already agreed to cooperate with you for it's own reasons so i see no reason you should have to continuously make "handle animal" or "diplomacy" checks to have him continue helping you.
EDIT: I forgot the "Exploring the Arcane Arts" comment. Hmm... seems we have a skill for that... what was it? Oh yeah, Knowledge( Arcana ). What stat is it based on? Int. Oh, the summoner has all knowledge skills? Handy that.
My two cents.....
I think I would prefer Int for the Summoner, it makes more sense that knowledge of what he is creating plays the primary role.
I think I would go with Wis for the Witch (although Cha makes sense as well). My reasoning for going with Wis over Cha is more a mechanics issue than anything.....I think it's a good counter balance to the Mystic.
Lose the hostility, dude.
I never said you had to have high charisma to do any of that. I said it was charisma based, and you've done nothing to disprove that. Cooperation, enticement, communion, signaling, directing, and internal power are all generally charisma-based.
The Summoner doesn't get his spells by poring over arcane formulas day and night for weeks on end, he gets them from some internal wellspring of power. He doesn't gain his Eidolon by carefully constructing a trap and binding it, he gains his Eidolon by enticing it into his service.
Charisma, in other words.
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Lose the hostility, dude.
I never said you had to have high charisma to do any of that. I said it was charisma based, and you've done nothing to disprove that. Cooperation, enticement, communion, signaling, directing, and internal power are all generally charisma-based.
The Summoner doesn't get his spells by poring over arcane formulas day and night for weeks on end, he gets them from some internal wellspring of power. He doesn't gain his Eidolon by carefully constructing a trap and binding it, he gains his Eidolon by enticing it into his service.
Charisma, in other words.
Sorry if you interpreted my post as hostile. I was trying to emulate the snarky and sarcastic feel of your post. If I went over the top I apologize. It was not my intention to be hostile, and I had no ill will for you. But, I have noticed you and other posters trying to trivialize other peoples ideas by being sarcastic/mocking/snarky and I get a little tired of it. Guess it just built up.
We can agree to disagree. I think that either stat could work depending on how you envisioned the summoner and what exactly he is doing. Personally, I feel intelligence is a better stat for the class and Jason only went with cha because he felt he had to with a spontaneous caster. If it changes, great. If it doesn't, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It can always be house ruled if people feel strongly enough about it in their game.
It also seems like a penalty to the class since only 2 of his skills are cha based( and those don't include bluff, intimidate, or diplomacy ) and 4 ( if you lump all craft/knowledge skills together which isn't really representative ) are int based.
Keep in mind that there's not much reason to increase a Summoner's Charisma past 16. You need 16 for 6th level spells, but only a very, very few have any saves, and with only 6 spell levels you lose a lot of potential extra spells for higher stats. The only non-spell class feature that involves Charisma at all is the summon monster SLA, and that's 3+Cha, so having a couple points less Cha isn't as big a deal.
In other words, there's no mechanical reason you can't build a high-int, moderate-cha Summoner.
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Keep in mind that there's not much reason to increase a Summoner's Charisma past 16. You need 16 for 6th level spells, but only a very, very few have any saves, and with only 6 spell levels you lose a lot of potential extra spells for higher stats. The only non-spell class feature that involves Charisma at all is the summon monster SLA, and that's 3+Cha, so having a couple points less Cha isn't as big a deal.
In other words, there's no mechanical reason you can't build a high-int, moderate-cha Summoner.
Yeah, I thought about that too :) And it is, in fact, what I will be doing with the summoner character I am going to be play testing.
Lose the hostility, dude.
Let's all do this. All he was saying is that pointing to a fantasy novel as a source for how mechanics should work isn't entirely helpful, as people can simply reference sources pointing the other way.
There are multiple opinions on this matter, and most of them make some kind of sense. Nobody but Jason should write (or attempt to write) as if they have the definitive answer.
That being said, there must be valid arguments if a large portion of the posters (potentially a majority, though one thread isn't an exact barometer) feel that the ability scores don't work or make sense as they're currently used.
I did not say "it should be charisma because of this book". I said "if you think charisma cannot apply, you should read this". What's the difference? The first statement (the one I did not say) is attempting to be a definitive answer, as you put it. The second statement (the one I did not say) is attempting to refute a definitive answer.