We playtested both classes last night, but one thing that came up was that the oracle needs a little bump at early levels.
My reccomendations, and those of the oracle player are to eaither give them more spells known than the sorcerer, cleric spells are not as powerful, thats why regular clerics know ALL of them, even doubling the number of spells known wouldn't be too outlandish, but half again could make a serious difference to the classes utility.
AND/OR give them an early offensive ability, a 1st level focus abiltiy that you get in addition to a revelation, similar to the elemental bloodline 3+Cha offensive abilities, or something that lets them cast cure/inflict spells at range. Their more caster than the cleric, and even a mere 30 ft. range would make a world of difference.
I would rather see a bump in the utility of some of the revelations, rather than an increase in spells.
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it does seem they need a boost. I would recommend increasing the number of times per day they can use most of their revelations. At the moment most of the revelations can only be used 1/day until the character reaches a much higher level. As a side note, the Oracle doesn't have to be focused on healing. They different Foci give them a variety of roles they can play. Also, we haven't seen all the Foci yet. I believe they intend to create 1 focus per cleric domain.
it does seem they need a boost. I would recommend increasing the number of times per day they can use most of their revelations. At the moment most of the revelations can only be used 1/day until the character reaches a much higher level. As a side note, the Oracle doesn't have to be focused on healing. They different Foci give them a variety of roles they can play. Also, we haven't seen all the Foci yet. I believe they intend to create 1 focus per cleric domain.
True, we will likely (hopefully?) see a "healer" Focus that will dispel some of this concern. However, any oracle is likely to be called upon to heal the party, just as the crusader build War cleric who likes to pretend he's a paladin, and the necromantic priest (in a dark party) who likes to inflict wounds and disease while his undead minions tear at the flesh of his f...{cough} "Uh, hey Lord Varthiss? Could you uh, hit me with a restoration....um..and maybe a little cure moderate....or something?...you know, just to give me a little pick-me-up....The point is, that all oracles could use more spells. Cleric spells are notoriously weak as offense compared to arcane spells, and the main use of divine magic is buff and recovery. But the neat thing about this divine class is that you don't have to take the cure spells. So, assuming Jason won't be giving them all cure spells as bonus spells, I think they could use maybe even one more spell known per spell level.
I also agree that this new "Oracle" core class needs a pick-me-up in its spellcasting choices. I think the cleric list is fine but the bonus spells awarded should be more of a choice then a "cleric domain -force this spell onto you choice". For one thing I noticed that the uber 20th level ability holds little power in some of the "Focus" areas. If you look at the Wind Focus the following are the only spells that have the air/lightning subtype that the class hands to you:
1) Gust of Wind
2) Control Winds
3) Whirlwind
From the Cleric list you could choose these spells as spell known to add to the list:
1) Wind Wall
2) Air Walk
3) Wind Walk
4) Summon Monster VI (Invisible Stalker)
And that's it. Maybe these following spells are typo's in the Pathfinder book because they have air or lightning effects but not the "subtype" so therefore are unaffected by the Final Revalation ability:
1) Control Weather
2) Storm of Vengence
3) Summon Monster I - V and VII - IX (elementals are listed as "Elemental" subtype not "Air or Lightning")
I personally suggest allowing the players access to all the following Air/Lightning spells (which are all the ones in the book" not already discussed:
1) Shocking Grasp
2) Whispering Wind
3) Call Lightning
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Call Lightning Storm
6) Chain Lightning
7) Summon Nature's Ally VIII (Cloud Giant only)
8) Elemental Swarm
I also would like to see the oracle take the role of a seer and suggest the following additions (I am not 100% about these):
1) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
2) Arcane Eye
3) Detect Scrying
4) Scrying Greater
I have not looked as deep into the other Foci but I share similar complaints about them.
Perhaps taking VedounMar's suggestion -- The Favored Soul's(Complete Divine) spell progression seems more appropriate for a divine caster...-- would be a good idea (I am not 100% sure about this but right now it sounds good) as long as you get rid of the "bonus spell idea" and add my suggested spells above to the list they get access to... maybe make the player take at least 1 air/lightning spell of their choice at each level or whatever is appropriate for their oracles Focus.
For reasons Jason has stated I'm quite okay with keeping the cleric spell list as what you choose from, I would just like a little bit more selection in spells, more parity with the fact that the cleric gets way more spells known than the wizard, not loads more, just a few.
And I agree with the idea of making the revelations more frequently useful, tey can fill niches that the cleric spell list doesn't account for, like a little offensive boost.
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I have a suggestion for the oracle. Perhaps it has been made. Give it either the “spontaneous casting’ of cure spells, or simply at the cure spells to its list of spells known for free.
Automatically add cure spells to it's spells known would be my preference. they already have a mechanic for spont casting.
I have a suggestion for the oracle. Perhaps it has been made. Give it either the “spontaneous casting’ of cure spells, or simply at the cure spells to its list of spells known for free.
I think cure/inflict spells would be better yet...
I posted this on another thread but it is also relevant here.
I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.
The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.
I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.
What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.
Whatever they do, they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)
Yeah, I think the cleric list is the better fit, despite losing a little oomph, but I'm really pushing for a few more spells known.
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In my game this past weekend, the Oracle was well received. The focus and curse led to several enthusiastic discussions about combinations, but everyone agreed the class(4th level in our game) is underpowered.
I felt that the class could use a few more spells known and spells per day, but some more revelations could be useful as well.
In my game this past weekend, the Oracle was well received. The focus and curse led to several enthusiastic discussions about combinations, but everyone agreed the class(4th level in our game) is underpowered.
I felt that the class could use a few more spells known and spells per day, but some more revelations could be useful as well.
This has been my impression, as well. Of the available Foci, I tend to view Battle as the most powerful. Even so, the reason it's powerful is because it better compensates for the lack of spell casting oomph for the Oracle. Part of it is the Sorc progression, which delays each spell level. Part of it is the weakness of many of the Cleric spells, particularly spell levels 1-4.
I'm in favor of the idea of adding Cure or Inflict for spell levels 1-4 automatically. I'm up in the air about giving automatic access to the Mass spells, however. Giving an additional 1 spell known at all levels would potentially be a good idea, as well.
Most of you are over looking that unlike the sorcerer you gain a 3/4th BAB, and a d8 as well as being able to cast in armor. I don't think this class needs a huge boost, but will know more after Saturday's game
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This has been my impression, as well. Of the available Foci, I tend to view Battle as the most powerful. Even so, the reason it's powerful is because it better compensates for the lack of spell casting oomph for the Oracle. Part of it is the Sorc progression, which delays each spell level. Part of it is the weakness of many of the Cleric spells, particularly spell levels 1-4.I'm in favor of the idea of adding Cure or Inflict for spell levels 1-4 automatically. I'm up in the air about giving automatic access to the Mass spells, however. Giving an additional 1 spell known at all levels would potentially be a good idea, as well.
My group actually wanted to see a less melee oriented class. The comment I got was if they wanted a combat ready divine spellcaster they'll just play a cleric or even a druid. They wanted a more "powerful" divine spellcaster, with less of a melee focus. Which is why my group wants a spell boost of some kind(more bonus spells, spells per day, or more spells known).
Most of you are over looking that unlike the sorcerer you gain a 3/4th BAB, and a d8 as well as being able to cast in armor. I don't think this class needs a huge boost, but will know more after Saturday's game
No I took that into account, but I see it this way, I'm not asking for stronger spells for the oracle, just more known, I'm happy even with the delayed spell progression.
My point is that a cleric knows far more spells than a wizard, and an oracle should know a few more than the sorcerer, divine casters benefit from the choice of more spells, it lets them cover their bases a bit better, an arcanist is okay to pick blasting spells, but the divine caster needs some healing, some buffing and will want some direct effect spells so they can have fun and contribute in combat too.
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Arguing that the Oracle isn't a melee class is kind of pointless. Depending on Foci and ability score choices it seems like they could be pretty decent at combat. Battle focus specifically has revelations that help add to the Oracle's combat effectiveness. Warsight, Weapon Mastery, Skill at arms, and Resiliency can make you fairly effective at combat. Not as good as a core melee class, but close. Then you can buff yourself with your spells or use them to heal allies without worrying as much about getting smashed by enemies. Iron Skin is decent as well, only the very limited number of times per day drops it from "great" to "decent". Not a fan of Battlecry as it gives a very minor boost and can be used a very limited amount.
The Oracle seems designed to be what you want to make of it. Taking a different Focus will allow you to tailor your Oracle to different types of roles. Are some Foci better then others? Definitely. But each can help you fill a different role in the party.
I also agree with giving the Oracle the Cure spells as spells known for free. The Cleric can spont cast into cure spells which means they don't have to memorize them. That opens them up to being a lot more of a utility spell caster than the Oracle can ever dream of being as they are likely to be responsible for at least some, if not all, of the parties' healing.
I actually think the Oracle is okay, and can be good at combat, their not a divine sorcerer, but their more like what a sorcerer is to a wizard, they are to a cleric, revelations an foci certainly allow them to be unique as a class, I just think that in using the cleric spell list, which I agree with, they need a few more spells known. I don't agree with auto cure spells, as that doesn't fit all concepts, though it will always be a logical often superior choice, I'd rather they have more spells known, to mirror that a cleric knows more than a wizard, all of its list in fact, because cleric spells do different things, and also in the oracles case, you need more of them to really shine.
So my suggestion is to either double, or give oracles half again spells known, seperate to foci, and other than that I'm actually quite happy with the oracle.
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I mentioned somewhere, I think that the Oracle should definetly use Wisdom for Spellcasting, not Charisma. For a lot of reasons. One, it makes a Orcale/Sorcerer pretty powerful, (both use pretty much identical stats). It makes a lot more sense that the Oracle be wise and fluent in the "mysteries". Also, an Oracle traditionally understands things and are very perceptive (Wis), but are typically not able to pass on that knowledge or to explain it well to others (Cha).
In 3.5, Wisdom was the source of Divine Spells, even though WotC themselves broke the rule. In PF, while the Paladin uses Cha now, Wisdom is still the norm. It makes more sense that an Oracle multiclass with a Cleric than a Sorcerer to me, but also that they compete for the same gear (even though Clerics also use Cha).
Oracle is a good way to fill in for less than priestly Cleric NPC's, like Shamans, or tribal priests, etc. . . but most savage races have a Cha penulty (moreso than Wis).
Also, Oracle's abilities ARE NOT inborn, innate bloodline powers. It is about understanding divine will or cosmic truths, which is all about Wis.
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I mentioned somewhere, I think that the Oracle should definetly use Wisdom for Spellcasting, not Charisma. For a lot of reasons. One, it makes a Orcale/Sorcerer pretty powerful, (both use pretty much identical stats). It makes a lot more sense that the Oracle be wise and fluent in the "mysteries". Also, an Oracle traditionally understands things and are very perceptive (Wis), but are typically not able to pass on that knowledge or to explain it well to others (Cha).
In 3.5, Wisdom was the source of Divine Spells, even though WotC themselves broke the rule. In PF, while the Paladin uses Cha now, Wisdom is still the norm. It makes more sense that an Oracle multiclass with a Cleric than a Sorcerer to me, but also that they compete for the same gear (even though Clerics also use Cha).
Oracle is a good way to fill in for less than priestly Cleric NPC's, like Shamans, or tribal priests, etc. . . but most savage races have a Cha penulty (moreso than Wis).
Also, Oracle's abilities ARE NOT inborn, innate bloodline powers. It is about understanding divine will or cosmic truths, which is all about Wis.
I was under the impression they were given their abilities by the gods. They didn't really have to understand anything the gods just said "Here, become the embodiment of Fire".
I was under the impression they were given their abilities by the gods. They didn't really have to understand anything the gods just said "Here, become the embodiment of Fire".I mentioned somewhere, I think that the Oracle should definetly use Wisdom for Spellcasting, not Charisma. For a lot of reasons. One, it makes a Orcale/Sorcerer pretty powerful, (both use pretty much identical stats). It makes a lot more sense that the Oracle be wise and fluent in the "mysteries". Also, an Oracle traditionally understands things and are very perceptive (Wis), but are typically not able to pass on that knowledge or to explain it well to others (Cha).
In 3.5, Wisdom was the source of Divine Spells, even though WotC themselves broke the rule. In PF, while the Paladin uses Cha now, Wisdom is still the norm. It makes more sense that an Oracle multiclass with a Cleric than a Sorcerer to me, but also that they compete for the same gear (even though Clerics also use Cha).
Oracle is a good way to fill in for less than priestly Cleric NPC's, like Shamans, or tribal priests, etc. . . but most savage races have a Cha penulty (moreso than Wis).
Also, Oracle's abilities ARE NOT inborn, innate bloodline powers. It is about understanding divine will or cosmic truths, which is all about Wis.
This was my understanding as well. In fact, the entire point of the curse bit is that they were given these powers, whether they liked it or not.
that being said, I do think it makes sense for them to be wisdom based. Oracles of lore are wise characters. The oracle of Delphi and the oracle from Madia and Oedipus were certainly not charismatic. In fact, they were either unconcerned with convincing people that what they said was true, or terrible at it.
"These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected
by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand."
That's pretty much a calling. And you cannot choose not to heed that call.
Cha makes perfect sense. It's the spontaneous spellcaster score. They don't get their power through dedication to a cause, like clerics.
And who cares if a sorcerer/oracle is a good choice? They're two spellcasting classes, meaning they won't work well together in one person. Not even with mystic theurge.
Gestalt maybe, but if you do gestalt, you have other problems.
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This was my understanding as well. In fact, the entire point of the curse bit is that they were given these powers, whether they liked it or not.
I was under the impression they were given their abilities by the gods. They didn't really have to understand anything the gods just said "Here, become the embodiment of Fire".
True, but what I mean is that it has nothing to do with their heritage or some property of their bloodline. They are not just divine sorcerers.
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Cha makes perfect sense. It's the spontaneous spellcaster score. They don't get their power through dedication to a cause, like clerics.
Well, they kind of do, atually, though that devotion is to a Focus. As I understand it, the amount of devotion to that focus is up to the player (i.e. how many levels of Oracle they take). But I'm not really arguing that. To me, Cha makes the least sense honestly, either mechanically or thematically.
And who cares if a sorcerer/oracle is a good choice? They're two spellcasting classes, meaning they won't work well together in one person. Not even with mystic theurge. Gestalt maybe, but if you do gestalt, you have other problems.
I don't know, unlike normal, I think a Straight Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10 might work pretty well, as is. But I really do not see Sorcerer being anything like the Oracle, thematically or in game. It seems off and forced, to me, and kind of weak. But that's my opinion. Again, I think Oracle just scream Wis and not Cha.
"These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected
by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand."That's pretty much a calling. And you cannot choose not to heed that call.
Cha makes perfect sense. It's the spontaneous spellcaster score. They don't get their power through dedication to a cause, like clerics.
And who cares if a sorcerer/oracle is a good choice? They're two spellcasting classes, meaning they won't work well together in one person. Not even with mystic theurge.
Gestalt maybe, but if you do gestalt, you have other problems.
The reason why spontaneous casters used cha was because they were supposed to be learning magic through their interactions with the world, through their observances and experiences. Those things would manafest in them magical abilities at each new level.
But the Oracle is a different animal. It does get its powers from the Gods. Not one specific God, but an area of divinity determined by their focus. This is why I think wisdom makes more sense than cha. As the understand the gods of water, fire, stone, battle or death they gain power from them. They don't really choose the power (it is in effect forced on them) like a cleric does, but its still the same mechanic. As they grow in their focus (see faith) they gain power.
Look at it this way:
Cleric: Wants the power, asks for it, is granted it according to his dedication (thus, the more dedicated he is, the more powerful his spells are. Wis is the key).
Oracle: Never asked for the power, gets it anyway. They don't have to show dedication to get the power. They're never asked. But they're stuck with their power, which infuses their souls. Pretty much like a sorcerer, who gets this power not from his own studies (like a wizard does), but because he's born with it. It's not his choice.
Both need to be sure about themselves and explore their powers, get enough confidence in them, to let them use it.
Both use Cha.
Sure, on a meta-gaming perspective, it's not like that: Nobody is forced to have those abilities, because it's a conscious choice by the player to play an oracle. They also choose the focus, the spells, and how many levels they take, and when, but that's out of game. If you count that as being able to choose the power, you can also choose your parents and race and everything, because that's choices a player makes.
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Oracle: Never asked for the power, gets it anyway. They don't have to show dedication to get the power. They're never asked. But they're stuck with their power, which infuses their souls. Pretty much like a sorcerer, who gets this power not from his own studies (like a wizard does), but because he's born with it. It's not his choice.
Both need to be sure about themselves and explore their powers, get enough confidence in them, to let them use it.
Both use Cha.
My problem is that experienceing and understanding the world is all Wis. I'm not saying Devotion to a deity, but rather devotion to whatever their focus is. War, Death, etc. . . In a non-metagaming way, the less devoted would take levels in other things.
[Off topic]To be honest, I think realisticly, Sorcerers should be Wis, too, especially with what you just said, because there is nothing Charsmatic about how a Sorcerer uses/advances their power.[end off topic]
My two cents.....
My innitial reaction to using Charisma as casting stat was "WHAT".
But at this point it has grown on me, and I actually like that it allows for a divine caster that has a different casting stat than the Cleric.
I won't have the opportunity to actually play test for at least a few weeks....but I'm more inclined to think that what the Oracle needs is a bump to the mysteries, both power and utility.
I think I would rather see that than an increase in spells known.
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[Off topic]To be honest, I think realisticly, Sorcerers should be Wis, too, especially with what you just said, because there is nothing Charsmatic about how a Sorcerer uses/advances their power.[end off topic]
As long as Charisma was being repositioned as 'force of personality,' I sometimes wonder if Will saves should have been moved over to Charisma, and Wisdom left as primarily geared around perception and insight. Sorcerers would have become the 'king of the will save,' with a strong Will save and Charisma as their primary stat, but I think that would have fit their arrogant, self-assertive description, turning sheer domineering will into arcane power.
A moot point at this late, late date, but a decade or so ago, it might have made sense, in the rollout of 3.0.
As long as Charisma was being repositioned as 'force of personality,' I sometimes wonder if Will saves should have been moved over to Charisma, and Wisdom left as primarily geared around perception and insight. Sorcerers would have become the 'king of the will save,' with a strong Will save and Charisma as their primary stat, but I think that would have fit their arrogant, self-assertive description, turning sheer domineering will into arcane power.
A moot point at this late, late date, but a decade or so ago, it might have made sense, in the rollout of 3.0.
I've long wished for just that, but, as you say, it's too late to change now.
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I think you just proved my point. Wisdom is about understanding, perception, and insight. I don't see Oracles being particularly forceful of personality. People come to them looking for council, interpretaion, and insight, they don't go to them with flowery speech (and most definetly not social grace).
Mechanically, the Oracle using Cha makes no sense other than to keep it as a "divine sorcerer". But that is not what they are. They are people that are forced to understand (and thereby harness) something that the universe has done to them. Insight into those mysteries is the key, and that is pure Wis.
Also, Wizards and Sorcerers tend to be arrogant not because of their advanced Int or Cha, but for a noted lack of Wis. :) Sad but true. Will Saves are about mental defense, not social offense, so it makes perfect sense that it be Wisdom based rather than Cha or Int.
I disagree about what ability scores should mean, but I totally see what you're saying about the oracle archetype being associated with wisdom.
It seems like they wanted oracles to seem mechanically distinct from clerics; i.e, you don't build a cleric the same way you would an oracle. However, if oracles were wisdom-based they would still be built different from clerics because of their lack of wisdom (clerics need CHA for church functions, diplomacy, and channel energy. Meanwhile oracles can be as rude, vacant, or downright antisocial as they want to be). Which would be quite iconic.
I rather like them charisma-based but it's hard for me to explain why.
As an Aside. . . when deciding bonus spells and what not, it would be better to avoid spells that have special material components. Such as the Animate/Create Undead type spells. These spells may seem potent, however, when actually attempting to use them it is quickly apparent that Onyx Gems are some of the rarest of all things. Its funny how elusive they become when a player is seeking to create an undead entourage. Essentially any spell with a special component cost is really a special DM permission, or NPC ability.
Not according to the core rules. Any worst (i.e. for components so rare or exotic that they must be treated as magic items), communities still have a 75% chance of carrying any given item up to its GP base value. That means that even a thorp probably carries a few 50 gp onyx gems, and if you need a big fat 500-gp gem to raise that dragon skeleton, it's probably as close as the nearest village or small town.
These things are always and absolutely the prerogative of the GM- if he wants to make them absurdly rare, that's his call, but you shouldn't assume such shenanigans when designing a new class.
The thing that makes clerics the perfect "divine caster" is that they can drop a spell and make it a heal. Oracles in this sense are basically on par with druids, because while they get the various heals a spell level sooner, they have a lot fewer spells available to cast. I do not see Oracles being effective as a heal class without a focus devoted to healing.
Maybe this is a bit far "out there" - but I thought that Oracle spell casting should work as follows:
Oracle's automatically know all divine spells (as a cleric), but their spell progression is like that of a bard (meaning they only gain upto level 6 cleric spells, and then only at high levels). Though probably increase the spells-per-day a compared to the bard. However, more focus on the foci/revelations (and more uses per day) would allow the Oracle to be more than just a "divine sorceror".
Maybe this is a bit far "out there" - but I thought that Oracle spell casting should work as follows:
Oracle's automatically know all divine spells (as a cleric), but their spell progression is like that of a bard (meaning they only gain upto level 6 cleric spells, and then only at high levels). Though probably increase the spells-per-day a compared to the bard. However, more focus on the foci/revelations (and more uses per day) would allow the Oracle to be more than just a "divine sorceror".
It is a bit far out, their supposed to a full spellcasting class, and being the divine equivalent of a sorceror isn't neccesarily a bad thing, they have some similarities, thier not the same class with the different spell lists by any means.
It's just my firm beleive that as clerics have (and need) more spells known, oracles should likewise have more spells known than the sorceror. Because of their party role and the manner of divine spells.
Oracle: Never asked for the power, gets it anyway. They don't have to show dedication to get the power. They're never asked. But they're stuck with their power, which infuses their souls. Pretty much like a sorcerer, who gets this power not from his own studies (like a wizard does), but because he's born with it. It's not his choice.
Both need to be sure about themselves and explore their powers, get enough confidence in them, to let them use it.
Both use Cha.
My problem is that experienceing and understanding the world is all Wis. I'm not saying Devotion to a deity, but rather devotion to whatever their focus is. War, Death, etc. . . In a non-metagaming way, the less devoted would take levels in other things.
[Off topic]To be honest, I think realisticly, Sorcerers should be Wis, too, especially with what you just said, because there is nothing Charsmatic about how a Sorcerer uses/advances their power.[end off topic]
I love the idea of Cha as the primary casting stat of any class, I have a wizard's guild/school/group and i have a sorcerer's guild/school/group/whatever. the sorcerers who don't have to study, spend most of the time drunk in taverns having parties. the most powerful of them are going to be incredibly liked through out the town they are in. it amuses me to no end.
A couple examples why Cha makes sense for Oracles are:
1. People went to Oracles in droves. You can argue all you want about the validity of the information they gave and that their ties to gods have always been represented as Wisdom. Fact of the matter is influencing people (whether valid or not) has always been Charisma not Wisdom. Also, people flock to highly Charismatic characters by nature.
2. They pointed out in the movie 300 that the Oracles were beautiful young girls. Whether this is historically founded in truth is not is irrelevant.
The fact is that this is that in popular culture this is the disposition. This is true if looking at modern movies like "Conan the Barbarian" (who had a HUGE impact on how the barbarian was created in Unearthed Arcana) or in classical literature like Charlemagne’s Paladins who were the template for Paladins.
...Good looks are Charisma (unless they decide to bring Comeliness back)