caffeinated's page

A few comments to make.

First off, to the guy who mentioned the Dread Necromancer as OP: What are you talking about? DN is easily tier 3 in 3.5 at best. They have a lot of dudes and know death magic, yes. But outside of that, what good are they? Zero utility in their spell list. Even with their potential 600+ HD of minions (yes, I've seen it done), they still can't hold a candle to a Druid, Cleric, or Wizard.

The Summoner seems to fill a similar niche. He's a low power character with some stronger friends. I don't see how a Summoner with one big friend and a bunch of temporary small friends is more powerful than a Dread Necro with 20+ permanent medium friends. The Summoner as originally written seemed to be well done to me.

Secondly, in regard to the potential Nova ability: If your play group is one that throws few combats in per day, then yes, I can see this being a problem. My group is one that is like this. 1-3 Combats per day is normal for us. However, this is the same argument used against 3.5 Psions. Sure, you can waste every resource you have fighting the first wolf pack you see... or you can play smart and conserve your resources for the other combats, social situations, or puzzles that you might face before you can take a nap. If the DM is worried about someone going nova on his BBEG, then put some contingencies in place. One would assume that the BBEG would know a little bit about the group that he's been fighting for the entire campaign and knows what they're capable of. Throw some stuff in the way to cause the summoner to burn some summons before the party gets there.

In the same vein, what's to stop a high level wizard from using Time Stop as his first action in the first combat of the day? One high level spell and a handfull of lower level slots just won him the combat 4 rounds before anyone else in the party could move. What stops this? THOUGHT AND PLANNING. Why waste this incredible resource when it may not be needed? Why not hold your big guns until they are required? It's poor strategy, that's why. You don't deploy your entire military on offence at the start of a war because you leave your home defenseless for the counter attack. Maybe it's my history playing strategy games and CCGs, but I learned long ago that it's best to hold your cards until the time is right and not rush in balls-out with nothing in reserve. This dead horse is probably beaten sufficiently in other threads, so I'll drop it there.

Another thought: Why are we comparing the Summoner to a Wizard? Let's look at him for a sec. Has a pet. D8 HD. Casts summons multiple times per day at will if he likes. This sounds very Druid to me.

As I see it in its present state, the summoner is a modified, and weakened, druid. What advantages over a druid does a summoner have? The eidolon is stronger than the pet. This is typically true, but not necessarily accurate.

Look at it the other way, how is a druid better than a summoner? 9-lvl spell progression. Wildshape. Spontaneous casting of summon spells.

Taking it from this perspective, I'll take a druid over the summoner any day. Many abilities that the Eidolon can have are available to an Animal Companion by investing gold instead of Evo points. This is in addition to being able to Wildshape and become a second melee powerhouse if need be. All on top of some solid Battlefield Control spells, damage spells, and more summons per day.

If the community as a whole feels that this fairly balanced class should be weakened, then that's cool. Removing armor from the Eidolon, a very good idea. That was broken and is now much better. Nerfing the summoner's ability to summon? Maybe take it down a step, but don't remove every incentive to play the class. I would personally like to see something like the following if the nurf does remain: Summon as an SLA 3+cha times per day. Duration = CL + Cha or something to make it longer than the other summoning classes. Standard action so the PC can actually finish a summon instead of being interrupted by whatever ranger/rogue/caster decides to throw some damage his way. And maybe limit the summons active to 1-3 at a time to keep those paranoid about players going nova happy.

Rezdave wrote:

ZappoHisbane wrote:

So, my Illusionist used Silent Image to make the entrance of the cave appear about 20' off to one side.

Would have to be one heck of an illusion. I imagine a dragon, particularly one that comes and goes often enough, would know the look and feel and "landing approach" of his lair pretty well, being able to do it almost blind. The sheer AoE needed to pull this off is mind-boggling.

Otherwise, way to go, Wile E.

FWIW,

Rez

Thanks. Yeah, the Illusionist was 12th level or so at the time, so lots of 10' cubes to work with. The entrance was just big enough for the dragon and no more. I specifically put the illusionary entrance to the side rather than above or below because I figured it would be easier to notice the change since the ocean or the top of the cliff provides a frame of reference. That's also why I had my raven familiar coaching me from the outside while I refined the illusion, to make sure I got it right. Even with all of that, the DM did make a couple of rolls behind the screen (I assume they were Spot or Intelligence checks, something along those lines), and the dragon fell for it regardless. Maybe I was lucky, I dunno. It was still cool though. :)

As for hallucinatory terrain... yeah I can see your point there. I might not even allow this if I were the DM. This particular DM was a little loosey-goosey with Illusions when he used them against us (illusory fireballs, not Shadow Evocation ones either, doing non-lethal damage that we didn't know was non-lethal until we woke up), so I figured it was fair game. :P

Rule of Awesome, basically. Prolly rolled some perceptions, etc to see if the dragon hit a "skill crit" then when it didn't he let it happen. As a DM, I totally would. The situation is too cool and creative to not reward.

I'll second a request for this, if anyone would oblige. I've been looking at the spellbook master app for a while, but I don't have a Mac, so the spellbook creation software won't run for me.

If anyone knows of a way to get PF spell lists into this app without using a Mac locally, I'd really appreciate the heads up.

So, the analog that I see is Cleric -> Oracle = Wizard -> Sorcerer. I think we can all agree to this.

Let's harken back to 3.5 for a second. In the land of WotC, Cleric -> Favored Soul = Wizard -> Sorcerer.

Now, flash back forward to present day. Wizards and Sorcerers have evolved into two distinct creatures, but there are still connections reminiscent of 3.5. Sorcs have a slower spell progression, fewer spells known, and more spells per day. These charts line up precisely with the Wiz/Sorc charts from 3.5. The Sorcerer got a few extra spells known from Bloodlines, which expanded their options a lot.

Following this logic train, the 3.5 Cleric has evolved into the PF Cleric. Losing turning attempts, gaining energy bursts, etc. But the Cleric kept the spell progression he had in 3.5.

Now, let's look at our old friend the Favored Soul. The oracle seems to be an attempt at an analogous evolution of that class. Comparing the oracle to the FS, the oracle has a similar BAB progression, fewer weapon proficiencies, fewer armor proficiencies, weaker save progression (full caster instead of monk), and weaker spells known progression. These changes seem to nurf the class concept across the board.

If the Oracle is intended to be a magical melee class, as evidenced by the BAB and HD, why remove armor and weapon proficiencies? Clerics lost their proficiencies from 3.5, but still maintained Medium armor. This, along with the strong will save progression, tells me they are intended as primary casters who can enter melee if need be.

If the Oracle is intended to be a full caster, why reduce the spells known? Yeah, the focus spells are provided at odd levels, but the sorcs get that too from their bloodline. Bottom line on this branch of the thought tree, divine spells are generally less powerful than arcane spells, so WotC gave the Favored Soul more spells known to compensate. Removing these spells weakens the class as a full caster.

So, what's left? A mediocre melee combatant with a few buff spells? Seems like a flavorfully fun class, but a mechanically lackluster one.

My suggestion, make a class that has a functional use, rather than a will save focused divine rogue. Take the Favored Soul as a base, convert the saves to that of the PF Cleric, or leave them as a caster. Keep the Favored Soul spell progression. Reduce the armor and weapon proficiencies to simple and light. This gives you a viable full caster with the ability to enter melee if the need arises. Also, with the Battle Focus, this gets a melee fighter that is only slightly worse off than a straight Cleric. This, at least to me, seems to be an evolution of the 3.5 class that resembles the evolution that the sorcerer went through.