blindsite's page

Adding in the entire Druid spell list sounds a bit excessive.

It would be more fun if each particular focus unlocked a relevant group of spells that the Oracle could then choose from in addition to the Cleric spell list. And by group, I mean something much larger than the default 9 currently given for each. As a rough example, an Oracle of Fire could choose any spell with the Fire descriptor to be a known spell. That may be a bit unbalancing in some instances, but really, it would be nice enough to be able to choose more spells having to do with your focus.

I like this idea a lot.

The thing that makes clerics the perfect "divine caster" is that they can drop a spell and make it a heal. Oracles in this sense are basically on par with druids, because while they get the various heals a spell level sooner, they have a lot fewer spells available to cast. I do not see Oracles being effective as a heal class without a focus devoted to healing.

blindsite wrote:

Whats the major benefit of, say, the wasting curse? Basically you become a lepper. People don't like to be around you. ok. But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?

As I said, the lesser drawbacks have lesser bonuses. -4 to all charisma skills isn't as big a drawback as being deaf, but it is still a significant drawback (just the penalty to Use Magic Device makes it that, but it also has a significant drawback in any political/city/detective campaign, where Diplomacy, Bluff, and Disguise are all major skills).

Quote:

Lame. You reduce your land speed. But like I said, getting a bag of holding will make encumbrance a non-issue. and they're not that expensive. At higher levels the progression isn't impressive. No armor penalty is great but you still can't move normal speed. And most Oracle builds probably won't be wearing that heavy of armor anyway. Also, max limitation is what, 10 feet? you can make up for that with items (boots of expeditious retreat for instance, which I think actually gives you a better bonus)

See above about lesser drawbacks, lesser rewards. As you state, you can somewhat counteract this curse (and it's the ONLY curse you can counteract with any real efficiency). As such, it has the least rewards.

Quote:

Blind has useful applications, but is nothing like what haunted is. Especially given the detriment of a max of 60 foot vision. That just doesn't match against the availability of reverse gravity and telekinesis.

And I question the usefulness of reverse gravity and telekinesis. You'll never win at a maneuver against anything important, because you're not full BAB, and the violent thrust ability is worse than just tossing a fireball since it's not likely to let...

How many cleric spells require specific foci and how universally useful are they that a spontaneous caster would take them. Also, combat wise its one of the easiest to get around. If your playing a full caster who cares about weapons? If you take a weapon out, you shouldn't drop it, and if you drop it for some ineffable reason why would you waste time trying to pick it back up. Cast a spell and run away.

If your a melee type, something akin to a caster rogue is how i see them playing unless your battle focus, then it could be an issue, if you make a habit of dropping stuff. But if your willingly dropping, say, hand cross bows and using the quick draw function to get around having to reload them (just drop and draw another) then your not really interested in picking them back up.

All in all I don't think that the draw back is as hefty in combat as many of the others. Out of combat, its awesome flavor. bells chiming when your trying to be stealthy or books attacking the Barron when your trying to speak with him...these things make for awesome story and roll play. I personally feel like it would be harder to get the same roll play benefit from blind, deaf, or lame. Weakened could be lots of fun too though...

"These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected

by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand."

That's pretty much a calling. And you cannot choose not to heed that call.

Cha makes perfect sense. It's the spontaneous spellcaster score. They don't get their power through dedication to a cause, like clerics.

And who cares if a sorcerer/oracle is a good choice? They're two spellcasting classes, meaning they won't work well together in one person. Not even with mystic theurge.

Gestalt maybe, but if you do gestalt, you have other problems.

The reason why spontaneous casters used cha was because they were supposed to be learning magic through their interactions with the world, through their observances and experiences. Those things would manafest in them magical abilities at each new level.

But the Oracle is a different animal. It does get its powers from the Gods. Not one specific God, but an area of divinity determined by their focus. This is why I think wisdom makes more sense than cha. As the understand the gods of water, fire, stone, battle or death they gain power from them. They don't really choose the power (it is in effect forced on them) like a cleric does, but its still the same mechanic. As they grow in their focus (see faith) they gain power.

I don't disagree that the other curses are flavorful great. I love story, and I love quirky characters. But I felt as though haunted gave both power and fun flavor.

I do admit though that there seems to be many things I hadn't taken into account, particularly with deaf, and the dunguneering aspect of blind. They do appear more balanced than my original interpretation.

I can't say that I agree with pretty much any of your points.

Every single curse has major drawbacks. Every single curse has major benefits. The curses with less-major drawbacks (tongues, for example) have less-major benefits.

Seems balanced and fun to me.

PS. Nearly as many divine spells have material components as arcane spells, and more divine spells have foci than arcane spells.

Whats the major benefit of, say, the wasting curse? Basically you become a lepper. People don't like to be around you. ok. But for what? How often will you run into diseases? By 5th and 10th level when you might start running into many of these you're probably already stacking fort for other non disease related reasons (like poisons). But again I ask now often you come into conditions where you are nauseated or sickened?

Blind has useful applications, but is nothing like what haunted is. Especially given the detriment of a max of 60 foot vision. That just doesn't match against the availability of reverse gravity and telekinesis.
And I call to question how many divine spells need spell components. I don't have the spell list in front of me, but from my experience its not even half as many as arcane. Also in so far as the focus, draw it before combat, or have it be something to the effect of a braclet or a necklace and that problem is solved.

Beckett wrote:

I mentioned somewhere, I think that the Oracle should definetly use Wisdom for Spellcasting, not Charisma. For a lot of reasons. One, it makes a Orcale/Sorcerer pretty powerful, (both use pretty much identical stats). It makes a lot more sense that the Oracle be wise and fluent in the "mysteries". Also, an Oracle traditionally understands things and are very perceptive (Wis), but are typically not able to pass on that knowledge or to explain it well to others (Cha).

In 3.5, Wisdom was the source of Divine Spells, even though WotC themselves broke the rule. In PF, while the Paladin uses Cha now, Wisdom is still the norm. It makes more sense that an Oracle multiclass with a Cleric than a Sorcerer to me, but also that they compete for the same gear (even though Clerics also use Cha).

Oracle is a good way to fill in for less than priestly Cleric NPC's, like Shamans, or tribal priests, etc. . . but most savage races have a Cha penulty (moreso than Wis).

Also, Oracle's abilities ARE NOT inborn, innate bloodline powers. It is about understanding divine will or cosmic truths, which is all about Wis.

I was under the impression they were given their abilities by the gods. They didn't really have to understand anything the gods just said "Here, become the embodiment of Fire".

This was my understanding as well. In fact, the entire point of the curse bit is that they were given these powers, whether they liked it or not.

So I'm not going to copy and paste the curse content, as I believe most everyone here has read it or can at any point read it again. I've been looking over it for a number of days, and there is a big problem I see: From a position of usefulness, not even meta-gaming, Why would anyone ever pick anything except the haunted curse.
The other curses are neat, but not particularly useful. Many of them are totally DM dependent for if they even come into effect. Deaf and blind operate basically like daredevil; "I was born blind, but through some fantastic circumstances, I can now operate like a slightly strange normal person". Great for flavor but like I said not particularly useful. Same for lame. Buy a bag of holding and voila, no more encumbrance. And tongues will only ever be useful if the DM make languages a focus point.
Haunted on the other hand allows the Oracle to dip into arcane casting without even using extra spell slots. And for what detriment? takes a full round to draw things. Ok, most divine spells don't have material components, so all that means is that I can't draw a weapon and attack the same round. Shouldn't matter for a caster. It might make stealth a bit harder as clanging bells and books falling might occur, but at least the spells you get are worth it.

How can we make these better? And by better I mean, more balanced while still being flavorful and fun.

What if it were to take the place of an enhancement bonus. When looking at full plate the bone armor bonus is just useless. Theres no real reason for a caster Oracle to worry about speed, unless they're mele caster, in which they should be battle focus.
However, if you were to say that there was 'extra' armor in the form of a materializing bone cage, effectively something else that an opponent must break through, it would make sense to add the +2 (and scaling for level) to whatever additional armor you may or may not be wearing.
The drawback to this would be that you couldn't not put any other magical enhancement on your armor. Or, rather, treat it as a magical enhancement and you take the greater one. They don't stack. This means that if you want to buy +5 armor you're welcome to, but bone armor becomes a wasted revelation.

The curse Tongues itself is sorely underpowered. I mean, so what if you can speak any language at 15? Its a flavor curse at best. Unless the DM creates a campaign world where languages are paramount I can't see how this is going to help. And the hindrance for a divine caster is that some of the most useful spells to know as a spontaneous caster are language dependent, such as hold person. Suggestion and dominate would be hindered too, though I can't remember if those are divine spells as well as arcane. And by the time you can speak enough languages through the bonus for it to matter, there are better, more powerful spells than the ones that have the language limitation.

Ok, so I spent the better part of last night talking to a friend of mine that is basically a rule sponge, The general consensus is that the Oracle isn't very balanced with itself (though a lot of classes aren't) but is sorely lacking in spells per day too, particularly if you are limiting it to cleric divine spells. Less spell power at low levels than a sorcerer as there is a lack of diversely applicable spells like magic missile. The cleric undoubtedly has a lot of useful spells, but the power of the cleric is that he can tailor his spell list in any given day, to be ready for the situation. The power of the sorcerer is that it has a few spells that it can cast a lot of times at any time. The Oracle either needs more known spells (though not necessarily more spells per day) to compensate for the lower power level of divine spells in this format, or the ability to dip into druid spells to give it the power and diversity. Otherwise your just running a bad rogue or a bad sorcerer.

I was thinking just now that I would prefer the cleric spell list that they have with the addition of all Air/Lightning spells for the Wind Focus... All Acid/Earth spells to the Stone Foci... All Fire spells to the Flame Focus... All Necromancy spells to the Bones Focus... All ??? (not sure what) to the Battle Focus... and All Cold/Water spells to the Wave Focus.

The reason I don't favor the druid spell list is then you could see the Flame Focus with control winds or whirlwind which should be only for the Wind Focus or some other such nonsense.

I also do not favor a unique spell list because I always find them annoying when new product comes out. Think of the Hexblades spell list from 3.5, it hardly ever got new spells when new product came out.

What about the Assassin... that was even worse in 3.5... maybe 1 book added 2 spells to their list.

Whatever they do they need the spells to match the Focus. Nothing is more annoying then saying that you have the Wind Focus and can cast only 4-5 wind/lightning spells at level 20. The Druid/Sorceror/Wizard gets more than that by then ;)

I agree that the foci need to match the available spells. This can be handled in a similar way that specialization does for wizards. Only rather than getting bonuses to the casting ability, you get bonus spell of that type (fire for fire spells, and I would suggest buffing spells for the battle focus, bulls strength and the like)

You can take these spells through general spell progression but its slower, and you naturally have to give up other choices to do so. I see the focus spells as supplemental.

Flavorfully, allowing them access to druid spells makes a lot of sense. They are polytheistic, and from my perspective there is nothing that would limit them to non-nature gods. Nature as a whole tends to be rather impartial so there is no reason its gods would only give its power to druids.
Also if the which class does indeed have arcane/cleric casting, it would make a nice spectrum for the oracle to have cleric/druid casting. That way all the bases are covered and it gives more versatility not only to the oracle, but also to players who can play a wide spectrum of types, histories, and personalities with the variations.