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I don't see the Oracle as having to have faith in any particular concept. The Oracle is given access to a vast amount of power from some abstract divine entity/ideal. Then it is up to them how they use that power or even if they use it. They get better at manipulating the power by using it and figuring out how to mold it to their will. It's kind of like giving someone a toolbox. They don't have to have faith in you to use the tools to build a table. It might take quite a bit longer for them to figure out how to build a nice table or a house though.
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I don't see the Oracle as having to have faith in any particular concept. The Oracle is given access to a vast amount of power from some abstract divine entity/ideal. Then it is up to them how they use that power or even if they use it. They get better at manipulating the power by using it and figuring out how to mold it to their will. It's kind of like giving someone a toolbox. They don't have to have faith in you to use the tools to build a table. It might take quite a bit longer for them to figure out how to build a nice table or a house though.
That is something that the class can do, sure, but still what about that says Cha? In those terms, I can see Int, and if you think of that toolbox as a mystery, certainly Wis, but Cha? Not really.
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I don't see the Oracle as having to have faith in any particular concept. The Oracle is given access to a vast amount of power from some abstract divine entity/ideal. Then it is up to them how they use that power or even if they use it. They get better at manipulating the power by using it and figuring out how to mold it to their will. It's kind of like giving someone a toolbox. They don't have to have faith in you to use the tools to build a table. It might take quite a bit longer for them to figure out how to build a nice table or a house though.That is something that the class can do, sure, but still what about that says Cha? In those terms, I can see Int, and if you think of that toolbox as a mystery, certainly Wis, but Cha? Not really.
Because you are forcing the power to do what you want it to through sheer force of will. The tool box is good for explaining the non-faith aspect. But, in this case, it's more like you are given the metal to make the tools and then you have to make the tools yourself using only your force of will. Which is why it makes more sense to be Charisma.
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Which of these say force of will to you? I can see Wis and I can see a little bit of Int, but nothing about Cha says force of will. Not trying to sound mean, but I just don't see it.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.
Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.
Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
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Which of these say force of will to you? I can see Wis and I can see a little bit of Int, but nothing about Cha says force of will. Not trying to sound mean, but I just don't see it.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
I see willpower as a more resistive force than an outwardly changing force. I always thought that Sorcerers used Cha because it represented harnessing and bending their power through their force of will/force of personality. Based on your arguments so far, sorcerers should use wisdom as well...
I think the precedent to lean on is the usual d&d representation of madness: +cha, -wis. Oracles don't necessarily have to be nuts, but I think it's fairly strong justification for making cha their casting stat.
Which of these say force of will to you? I can see Wis and I can see a little bit of Int, but nothing about Cha says force of will. Not trying to sound mean, but I just don't see it.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Charisma is also "sense of self"....or self confidence, which is why some forms of undead, and most constructs have low charisma.
Having a cute butt does not allow you to lead, your strength of personality, you confidence, and faith in self allows you to lead.
That same strength of personality is what allows Sorcerers, and now Oracles...to use the magic they wield.
It makes perfect sense IMO.
This may be a rehash but...
When I first read the mechanics the first impression was where does the name fit in? There is no indication of foresight which is something a class called Oracle should be able to do as this is the first thing to spring to mind.
The name isn't going to change so for me the class needs some form of divination mechanic such as;
re-roll on the dice once per level,
DR based on the fact you know where the blow will land,
a bonus to hit because you know when the shield will be dropped.
That kind of thing.
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Which of these say force of will to you? I can see Wis and I can see a little bit of Int, but nothing about Cha says force of will. Not trying to sound mean, but I just don't see it.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character
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Which of these say force of will to you? I can see Wis and I can see a little bit of Int, but nothing about Cha says force of will. Not trying to sound mean, but I just don't see it.
Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character
Wisdom describes common sense and an understanding of the world around you. It does not describe your character.
Your character acts however you roleplay them to act. Stats can help you figure that out, but they don't pigeon hole you into any particular personality.
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My post didn't come through. I had said that if Cha were the gauge by which Self-Confidence and Will are measures, where does that leave Dwarves? Dwarves are notably Stubburn and Bullheaded, and extremely confident about their prowess, but have a lower Cha than most other races (and now a higher Wis, to boot). However, they tend to make poor Sorcerers, because Sorcerous power has nothing to do with will or confidence. In this case, it does have to do with a sense of self, though. Same thing goes with Ogres, or similar monsters. Cha just doesn't hold water, sorry. Wisdom, however does, because most Undead and Constructs also have a low(er) Wisdom. Wisdom is both about self and outside of yourself, but it is specifically about willpower, power of will, and understanding and percieving.
Saying that stats are just stats and don't need to be followed to make your character is only partially true. It's also partially a cop out answer, because why even have them, then? If they don't mean something, good and bad, than why are you even arguing for Cha?
Saying that stats are just stats and don't need to be followed to make your character is only partially true. It's also partially a cop out answer, because why even have them, then? If they don't mean something, good and bad, than why are you even arguing for Cha?
I don't think anyone is trying to say that.
At least for my part, I don't see each stat as fitting into a neat little box.
Your Int, Wis, & Cha ALL play a role in your sense of self, your force of will, and in this case.... your ability to wield magic.
I simply don't agree that Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma in the case of the Oracle, and even if they for some reason chose to suddenly re-write the Oracle to use Wisdom, I would keep it based on Charisma because that fit's what I'm looking for better.
Of course YMMV.
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Saying that stats are just stats and don't need to be followed to make your character is only partially true. It's also partially a cop out answer, because why even have them, then? If they don't mean something, good and bad, than why are you even arguing for Cha?I don't think anyone is trying to say that.
At least for my part, I don't see each stat as fitting into a neat little box.
Your Int, Wis, & Cha ALL play a role in your sense of self, your force of will, and in this case.... your ability to wield magic.
I simply don't agree that Wisdom makes more sense than Charisma in the case of the Oracle, and even if they for some reason chose to suddenly re-write the Oracle to use Wisdom, I would keep it based on Charisma because that fit's what I'm looking for better.
Of course YMMV.
And I'm not trying to argue that my way is the only right way. Really I just want to understand why Cha is the perferred choice by so many. Ideally, the Oracle could choose to go either Wis or Cha. I think a Wis based Oracle/Monk would be awesome. I also think the class should be more like a Cleric than a Sorcerer.
I had said that if Cha were the gauge by which Self-Confidence and Will are measures, where does that leave Dwarves?... Same thing goes with Ogres, or similar monsters. Cha just doesn't hold water, sorry.
This is one of my personal Bugbears.
I feel there is a horrible double standard with Cha. Creatures 'ugly'(Ogres) or 'strange looking' (various monsters) or even those who live in a society who has a 'social stigma' (Tieflings) against them, take Cha hits.
Tieflings, for example, I could never understand the reasoning for various reasons. If you look at other human-looking demons they actually have high Charismas
The point is, they are less 'impressive' and have less 'force of personality' because of this because charisma has also been deemed the 'attractive' and 'social acceptance' stat.
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Well, that is a first with PF. Something else that was lost in my earlier post. Cha actually does mean attractivness now, where it never has before (directly). Prior, it was also only how you used what you had, but now, good looks is a part of Cha.
For Tieflings, in particular, I can easily understand the Cha hit. Tieflings are a known race of decievers, and are almost universally mistrusted. But, the problem with that is, so are Drow, Fey, and all not-good Outsiders, so they too should have a low Cha, (according to that reasoning anyway).
Well, that is a first with PF. Something else that was lost in my earlier post. Cha actually does mean attractivness now, where it never has before (directly).
False. Taken straight from the 3.5 PHB:
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.
I'm tired of this. I don't care any more.
I'll just summarise:
The class is called oracle. It uses cha. Neither will change. I like it.
Eat your hearts out, guys.
Hopefully he dosen't split casting stat (or anything else for that matter) like Favored Soul. That was a HORRIBLE class IMO.
Jason did have a hard time choosing, but the way he said it suggested that the choice was made. Sorry Beckett and co., at this point your about as likely to change that as the name.
You can of course continue arguing your case, and while I like Cha, you make some good arguments and I can see where your coming from, but your wasting your time (not meaning to sound harsh if that did).
It's not changing, we'd be way better served looking at and playtesting the mechanics, that is the point of the playtest, not giving everyone free reign to change the name or casting stat.
And hey, if its any consolation, Houserule!
Jason did have a hard time choosing, but the way he said it suggested that the choice was made. Sorry Beckett and co., at this point your about as likely to change that as the name.
You can of course continue arguing your case, and while I like Cha, you make some good arguments and I can see where your coming from, but your wasting your time (not meaning to sound harsh if that did).
It's not changing, we'd be way better served looking at and playtesting the mechanics, that is the point of the playtest, not giving everyone free reign to change the name or casting stat.
And hey, if its any consolation, Houserule!
You should really post a link if you are going to put words in Jason's mouth. Nothing in his post said he was opposed to possibly changing it from Charisma. He simply stated he had a desire to make it not be the same as a cleric, not that he was closed to making it wisdom. In fact, he specifically asked for feedback on that very subject.
Just to save everyone some time though, if you don't want to follow the link above, here's the relevant text from Jason.
As these classes are no longer going for the backwards compatibility with these classes, why does the oracle use Cha for spellcasting? It annoys me no end that almost all spontaneous casters use charisma. It doesn't fit in with the fluff given, unlike Sorcerer. Divine casters use WIS, arcane INT but all spontaneous use CHA? Sorry think a bit out of the box; to me rather than having the willpower/strength of personality that Sorcerers have to battle the power within them Wisdom.. being sensitive and open to many different powers.. makes more sense.Truth be told, I went back and forth on this issue myself. In the end, I decided it was better to have the class based on a different stat than the cleric (for the sake of diversity in divine casters, and to prevent a bit of stat stacking), but that left me with Int and Cha...
Int did not make much sense and Cha has always been used as a force of will and strength of spirit stat, making it a good fit for the oracle's flavor.
Thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Personally I'm hoping he can't be pursuaded, I want the oracle to function off of charisma.
Same here.
You should really post a link if you are going to put words in Jason's mouth. Nothing in his post said he was opposed to possibly changing it from Charisma. He simply stated he had a desire to make it not be the same as a cleric, not that he was closed to making it wisdom.
I wasn't trying to put words in his mouth, it doesn't affect me if people argue about it, I just think theres better things the time can be spent on. And he sounds pretty decided, I can't see him changing it to Int!
I'd rate it as one or two jumps more likely than the name in likelyhood to change.
I actually kind of like the either/or suggestion, personally. I'd prefer Cha if we have to have only one, which is more likely, but getting to pick could be sort of cool.
Doubt it'll be implemented though.
It would be a nice idea - if it was done system-wide, not just for one class. Stuff like that should not be a class feature, it should be a game feature.
I've read through most of the thread, though admittedly not all of it.
AFA the debate about Cha vs Wis, I say, who cares? It seems a pretty trivial difference to me, and something easily houseruled the other way if you don't like the way it ends up. Personally, I prefer Wis, but if the class ends up with Cha, that won't bother me a whit.
But to return to the original point of the thread, many people were saying that the class felt a bit underpowered; that seems like a bigger issue that's more difficult to houserule around. (As it happens, I also agree with this criticism.) The suggested fixes have primarily been around giving more spells known, which is certainly one way to do it.
Alternatively, what about being able to pick two foci? Not sure entirely how it would work, but I'm pondering something like this:
- At first level, choose one focus, which is your primary focus.
- At second level, choose another focus, which is your secondary focus.
- Whenever you receive focus spells, you get spells from both foci.
- Choose a revelation from your primary focus at 1st, 3rd, and every 4th level beyond that (exactly as it is now).
- Choose a revelation from your secondary focus at 2nd, 4th, and every 4th level beyond that (except 20th).
- Final revelation is from your primary focus.
In this way, it's similar to Clerics getting two domains, except you don't get them both at first level, which I think is necessary to discourage single-dipping. It adds more spells known, which is good, and gives the class more flexibility.
The only real downside I see is that while some of the foci go together pretty well (e.g. Battle and Stone), others don't go together at all (e.g. Flame and Waves). That would be less of a problem once we have more foci, and you could always houserule that certain combinations are taboo.
This is strictly off the top of my head and almost certainly needs more thought (would you get to use class skills from both foci, or only from your primary focus? maybe you have to choose both foci at 1st level, but the secondary one doesn't really do anything until 2nd?), but I think it has possibilities.
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I can see it having possibilites if the secondary focus was downgraded a lot. Maybe you only get half the powers, at specific levels, (rather than pick and choose). I like the idea, but also think it would bring complication, so not sure I'd actually want it for the Oracle. One thing I do sort of want, is to slightly open up the Spell list a bit. Allow an oracle of flame to take Burning Hands, if they want, or something like that.
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It would be a nice idea - if it was done system-wide, not just for one class. Stuff like that should not be a class feature, it should be a game feature.I actually kind of like the either/or suggestion, personally. I'd prefer Cha if we have to have only one, which is more likely, but getting to pick could be sort of cool.
Doubt it'll be implemented though.
While that would be nice, I don't really think it fits for all classes. I can see a Cleric going off of Int (very rare), Wis, or Cha, but not so for a Wizards. Likewise with Druid Int and Cha, no not really. I could see a Ranger going off Int, and a paladin either Wis or Cha. For the Oracle though, at least to me, it makes perfect sense because there are two good ways to take the class from the start.
Also, (everyone in general), I'm less arguing and more trying to understand why people think Cha is a better choice.
The existing foci would have to be downgraded some if two where going to be available, and somehow that makes no sense to me.
I would rather see them toughen up the base line for foci, so that they are a bit stronger, and possibly address more “off list” spells that fit the foci for bonus spells.
Example: Add Heroism & Greater heroism to the Battle foci's bonus spell list.
I've really enjoyed reading this. i will be playing my first pathfinder game this weekend, and will be playing an oracle.
I have a few thoughts i'd like to share...
1) i wouldn't worry too much about the oracle/sorcerer dual class. the game favors single classing (with possibly a prestige class). an oracle/sorcerer dual class will be able to cast a lot of low-level spells, but that isn't going to cut it when a oracle7/sorc7 fighting anything with a CR14 and higher.
2) I like to think of the Oracle as a force of divine nature, depending on the foci. The oracle is the divine embodiment of a concept or aspect of life. An oracle of the hunter aspect/focus enjoys the trill of the hunt, maybe the selection of the prey, and possibly the kill, but the trill of the hunt is the important and primary part. Once a hunt has begun an oracle of the hunt would never give up the prey. Rem just cause a character hunts doen't mean he kills. The oracle of the Hunt could also be a finder of lost people/items/whatever. this is, as always, ... imho ;)
3) i can't wait to play.
Overall the Oracle class is awesome! I think it is a great concept and does things quite well with its own unique feel. One thing... the Lame curse: I think the second ability you get (the fact that armor doesn't inhibit movement) is kind of not useful to this curse. Since the Oracle only gets the Light Armor Proficiency this is kind of useless for the character, barring taking extra Armor Proficiencies. But for a primarily caster class, I think this is a waste of feats. Just a thought! :)
Well, the oracle of battle can already get warrior proficiencies as a revelation, and I'm sure more stuff like that will follow, so it's not completely wasted, even without multiclassing or taking extra feats (which is always a possibility)
+1Personally I'm hoping he can't be persuaded, I want the oracle to function off of charisma.Same here.
Same here, but the weak will saves is a problem.
If Jason sticks with char I hope the oracle gets good will saves.
[...]
Now, let's look at our old friend the Favored Soul. The oracle seems to be an attempt at an analogous evolution of that class. Comparing the oracle to the FS, the oracle has a similar BAB progression, fewer weapon proficiencies, fewer armor proficiencies, weaker save progression (full caster instead of monk), and weaker spells known progression. These changes seem to nurf the class concept across the board.
If the Oracle is intended to be a magical melee class, as evidenced by the BAB and HD, why remove armor and weapon proficiencies? Clerics lost their proficiencies from 3.5, but still maintained Medium armor. This, along with the strong will save progression, tells me they are intended as primary casters who can enter melee if need be.
If the Oracle is intended to be a full caster, why reduce the spells known? Yeah, the focus spells are provided at odd levels, but the sorcs get that too from their bloodline. Bottom line on this branch of the thought tree, divine spells are generally less powerful than arcane spells, so WotC gave the Favored Soul more spells known to compensate. Removing these spells weakens the class as a full caster.
So, what's left? A mediocre melee combatant with a few buff...
Agree on all.
Jason dosn't need to boost the Oracle on all account but I like to see1) More spells known - especially at lower levels
2) More divination stuff. I'd like to see all Oracles get Augury as a spell like ability etc. Perhaps once per day and more at higher levels.
3) Give it boost to healing and the like. Stuff like lesser resturation
4) A boost at lower levels
5) More Foci not focused of Battle and the elenemts
6) A healing Foci / Aid Foci.
7) Give the Oracle good will saves as well as good fort saves.
Fix casting spells and the Elemental Form. The Oracle can use this
ability once per day, but the duration is 1 hour/level. Sure, but how is the oracle going to cast spells in this form? Is the Oracle going to be a melee class?
Don't give it medium armor. Focus on spells and tone down melee.
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I have a suggestion for the Oracle of Bones, specifically the Raise the Dead ability.
As written the ability is thematic and could be a strong role playing aspect of the class. Unfortunately the ability seems pretty useless except at level 1 to maybe 3.
I would propose possibly changing the ability completely save the name.
Instead of raising a generic zombie or skeleton from out of nowhere, you instead may attempt to raise an existing corpse as a standard action. Create a DC and use the corpses previous Will save. If it fails the save its type changes to undead, it loses all spellcasting ability, loses all supernatural abilities, and loses all special abilities that are con based. The creature remains under your control for a number of turns equal to your charisma modifier and then returns to a corpse state.
This ability seems like it would stay effective throughout the game. It is thematic of Raising the Dead rather than generic zombie/skeleton summoning. If the DC was correctly tiered it should create a situation where common enemies can be raised but elite or boss type enemies would be hard if not near impossible to raise.
I have a suggestion for the Oracle of Bones, specifically the Raise the Dead ability.
As written the ability is thematic and could be a strong role playing aspect of the class. Unfortunately the ability seems pretty useless except at level 1 to maybe 3.
I would propose possibly changing the ability completely save the name.
Instead of raising a generic zombie or skeleton from out of nowhere, you instead may attempt to raise an existing corpse as a standard action. Create a DC and use the corpses previous Will save. If it fails the save its type changes to undead, it loses all spellcasting ability, loses all supernatural abilities, and loses all special abilities that are con based. The creature remains under your control for a number of turns equal to your charisma modifier and then returns to a corpse state.This ability seems like it would stay effective throughout the game. It is thematic of Raising the Dead rather than generic zombie/skeleton summoning. If the DC was correctly tiered it should create a situation where common enemies can be raised but elite or boss type enemies would be hard if not near impossible to raise.
I agree. When I first saw the Oracle of Bones, I thought that it would make an excellent necromancer type character, but Raise the Dead seems really pointless, and it feels the same as summoning dead rather than really raising anything.
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I've posted these suggestions in other places, but thought I might as well get my thoughts in here.
After playing with the oracle for a few sessions, I'm pretty sure that she has some good potential, especially with the flavor. The problem stems from the fact that her spell progression and foci progression (related to spells) seems to be a carbon copy of the sorcerer. While this works for arcane spells, it simply doesn't work for divine spells.
At low levels an arcane caster could only have 1 spell known for 1st level and be perfectly fine. She could just cast sleep or color spray or burning hands all day and feel like her casting is useful. For an Oracle though, there aren't any "I win" spells that can be used. Most are utility that are used once or twice in a day. Even cure light wounds can have limited/no use if no one is hurt, or if you have a cleric in the party.
My suggestion would be to give Oracles their foci spell when they gain the spell level (1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, etc.) not the level before. This would give a good useful, powerful (sometimes even arcane) spell that they can use in addition to their other spells. I would also suggest that they get an extra spell known later on so that the maxed spells known would be something like: 10 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 (0th to 9th level spells). As said before this is mainly to allow the PC to choose more utility/buff spells that may never be used in a day, let alone an entire dungeon, but still feel like knowing the spell is a valid choice.