I agree. I love some of the concepts that the Oracle can allow. I've been wanting to play a kooky, insane priest. While I pulled it off in 3E, it took a lot of mechinics to do it, and the Oracle works well.
I also love the way a Battle Oracle looks. I can think of so many concepts I want to play, (and also can't help but love how it essentually gives the finger to all the DM's that say clerics must have a deity j/k).
Just a note, if the DM is hard and fast on all cleric's needing a diety, he may either not allow the Oracle or require they have one as well. DMs can be quirky about such things.
I agree. This class just screams for it to be something of a tribal shaman type, or the kooky village seer, or the local elementalist. Another concept would be a dwarf with the speak in tongues curse and Stone 'Focus/Mystery'. Be a major earth elemental summoner, always jabbering in Terran almost as often as dwarven or common.
Good catch phase: "Never argue with the rocks, they are ALWAYS more hard headed than you can imagine. There is a reason the mountain is said to be unyielding."
In allot of circumstances, I think I would rather have oracles in my games, rather than druids. They make more sense for the druidic faiths than the wild-shaping class we have.
Just a note, if the DM is hard and fast on all cleric's needing a diety, he may either not allow the Oracle or require they have one as well. DMs can be quirky about such things.I agree. I love some of the concepts that the Oracle can allow. I've been wanting to play a kooky, insane priest. While I pulled it off in 3E, it took a lot of mechinics to do it, and the Oracle works well.
I also love the way a Battle Oracle looks. I can think of so many concepts I want to play, (and also can't help but love how it essentually gives the finger to all the DM's that say clerics must have a deity j/k).
If the DM required an Oracle to have a deity, I would say they missed a very large part of what the class is about. If my DM required it, I would honestly not play an Oracle and would rather they just ban them from their game than alter that aspect of the class.
-Weylin
My point was that the DM will look at the class and say well that doesn't fit with my ideal that all divine power must come from a defined diety and thus not allow the class, or they may simply alter the class so it must pick a diety. They get that the class screams otherwise, and they simply built their world were such a thing isn't possible.
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Just a note, if the DM is hard and fast on all cleric's needing a diety, he may either not allow the Oracle or require they have one as well. DMs can be quirky about such things.I agree. I love some of the concepts that the Oracle can allow. I've been wanting to play a kooky, insane priest. While I pulled it off in 3E, it took a lot of mechinics to do it, and the Oracle works well.
I also love the way a Battle Oracle looks. I can think of so many concepts I want to play, (and also can't help but love how it essentually gives the finger to all the DM's that say clerics must have a deity j/k).
True, but if the DM is so much of a douche that a class that specifically says no, than I wouldn't be playing with them unless they also force all rogues to join a guild that determines their skill and class feature selection, the fighter to join a merc. company that picks all feats for them, and wiz/sor that only gives specific access to spells and feats. I am really talking about the overly controlling (douche) DM's that only allow concepts they like.
Oracle:This seems to be a downgraded version of the 3.5 favored soul as many people have mentioned. It needs a bit more to tow the line with the standard base classes that saw increase in base power level rather than a decrease.
One mechanic that I like, and would like to have seen done for Bards is altering the 'spells known' from a -life long choice- to a -daily choice-.
To whit: each day the Oracle receives his 'vision' of his spells known for the day when he refreshes his spell slots.
I think this will properly address needs for 'fixes' for which parties turn to a divine caster and recompense the Oracle's small number of known spells compared to the 3.5 favored soul which was easily less powerful than 3.5 cleric.
I would also keep them on par with the cleric in terms of armor & weapon proficiencies, BAB and saves.
-James
It isnt a downgraded Favored Soul. That would require something more in common other than just spontaneous divine casting. To me I see it as more flavorful class. The Fav Soul was a little forced to me. Just getting the ability to fight with their deity's weapon. This is more the thing. I think the FS was best used when you dipped into Paladin 2 levels. The Oracle makes me want to stick with it 20 levels. Although, it has been mentioned that this would make a GREAT class to use with Sorcerer then Mystic Thuerge.
One mechanic that I like, and would like to have seen done for Bards is altering the 'spells known' from a -life long choice- to a -daily choice-.
To whit: each day the Oracle receives his 'vision' of his spells known for the day when he refreshes his spell slots.
I think this will properly address needs for 'fixes' for which parties turn to a divine caster and recompense the Oracle's small number of known spells compared to the 3.5 favored soul which was easily less powerful than 3.5 cleric.
I like this, and think it could be a very useful approach.
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Ok I playtested the oracle. The specific oracle created was a Half-orc with Battle Focus....
I played an oracle much like yours (half-orc, Battle focus - Skill At Arms) last night, however I had the Tongues curse. We ran into a couple situations that really brought out the curse aspect.
1) We were in a location that was dark and no one had a light source. Gharl with darkvision saw the approaching enemies and suddenly could only speak Ignan. He attempted to shout out the warning but the rest of the PC's had no idea what he was saying nor could they see him...
2) In another situation, he was trying to get someone to climb up a rope during combat...and had to resort to pantomiming and pointing up the rope.
Basically I found that this curse added to the role playing and I look forward to playing him some more.
I have made a cavalier NPC for my campaign, and I like him very much. They make for an extremely fun antagonist. I would like to see more orders with the final product.
As for the oracle, I liked it, but at higher levels I just don't think it matched up to other spellcasters. I liked the foci and curses but I would like to see a wider variety and perhaps some more unique concepts. Perhaps looking at the "flaws and merits system" used by White Wolf would provide some useful incite.
It isnt a downgraded Favored Soul. That would require something more in common other than just spontaneous divine casting.
It does.. it has far fewer spells known than the favored soul, which was a weak class both in flavor and mechanics.
Now the Oracle has taken strides in the flavor (though some tweaking is likely needed there), it has gone the wrong way with the mechanics.
My suggestion is simple: change the spells known from life long to a daily choice.
-James
I still don't see it. The Fav Soul was a chosen of the gods. This is not. More along the lines of a witch doctor. The concepts are not even similiar. Again, the only similarity is the spontaneous divine caster. I see nothing that would be made better for the Oracle to choose spells daily. That is the cleric. This is really a divine sorcerer.
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I still don't see it. The Fav Soul was a chosen of the gods. This is not. More along the lines of a witch doctor. The concepts are not even similiar. Again, the only similarity is the spontaneous divine caster. I see nothing that would be made better for the Oracle to choose spells daily. That is the cleric. This is really a divine sorcerer.
It isnt a downgraded Favored Soul. That would require something more in common other than just spontaneous divine casting.
It does.. it has far fewer spells known than the favored soul, which was a weak class both in flavor and mechanics.
Now the Oracle has taken strides in the flavor (though some tweaking is likely needed there), it has gone the wrong way with the mechanics.
My suggestion is simple: change the spells known from life long to a daily choice.
-James
The only thing the Favored Soul had going for it came 5-10 levels to late. The Wings and Outsider tranformation were cool, but far to late to use much. That being said, I too see nothing in common between the Oracle and Favored Soul (beyond spont. divine casters). But I wouldn't discribe the Oracle as downgraded by any stretch. The Oracle has many options to choose from besides good/evil and spells known (of which the FS ONLY got generic Cleric spells). The Oracle has ONE casting stat. The Oracle gets things at most levels (whereas FS had entire levels with nothing at all). The Oracle is not resricted to all choices made at level 1. The Oracle has skills (THAT ACTUALLY FIT THE CLASS), to do things beyond just basic survival and can do something outside combat. I just hope that the Oracle is not abandonned in later books LIKE THE FS was.
Also note that the Oracle is NOT dramatically behind the Favored Soul in spells known. A level 20 Favored Soul has 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4 spells known of 1st-9th level. A level 20 Oracle has 6/6/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 spells known. That means the Oracle knows 1 less 3rd-5th level spell, 2 less 6th-7th level spells, and 1 less 8th level spell. They know the same number of 1st, 2nd, and 9th level spells, and they have a bunch of spell-like abilities on top of that.
Also note that the Oracle is NOT dramatically behind the Favored Soul in spells known. A level 20 Favored Soul has 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4 spells known of 1st-9th level. A level 20 Oracle has 6/6/5/5/5/4/4/4/4 spells known. That means the Oracle knows 1 less 3rd-5th level spell, 2 less 6th-7th level spells, and 1 less 8th level spell. They know the same number of 1st, 2nd, and 9th level spells, and they have a bunch of spell-like abilities on top of that.
Er, try crawling your way through all those levels like a normal person. The difference between getting 1 spell at level 4 or 6 instead of 3 is... staggering.
The difference between getting 1 spell at level 4 or 6 instead of 3 is... staggering.
And what's the difference between having a bunch of spell-like abilities and not?
The difference between getting 1 spell at level 4 or 6 instead of 3 is... staggering.And what's the difference between having a bunch of spell-like abilities and not?
If by "a bunch" you mean 2 or 3. The oracle's spell-likes are generally cleric-strength (weak) offensive options given far fewer uses per day than their spells. There's no argument for a weak fire breath 2-4x/day when the favored soul can learn Searing Light or Blade Barrier in addition to the essential healing spells, at the very moment they become available.
The noncombat utility revelations are better than the favored soul's extras (energy resistance, DR, weapon skills), but the margin is awfully narrow. On the other hand, the favored soul scored monk saves, heavier armor, and overall more spells per day.
What I'm saying is, a 3.5 favored soul could kick the butt of a PF oracle, while we all know this should be the other way around.
All of which is perhaps besides the point. Favored soul was a mediocre class from an earlier era of d20; our time is better spent comparing oracles to PF clerics and sorcerers.
What I'm saying is, a 3.5 favored soul could kick the butt of a PF oracle
From what I've seen of the two classes in action, that is very much not the case.
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I only have one issue so far, and that's as a proofreader.
Shouldn't that be Fortitude? You try dodging the sun on a hot summer's day.Heat Aura (Su): As a swift action, you can cause waves
of heat to radiate from your body. This heat deals 1d4
points of fire damage per two oracle levels (minimum
1d4) to all creatures within 10 feet. A Reflex save halves
this damage.
it's reflex. They feel the heat start rolling off you and dodge backward or whatever to get out of range.
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Hm, a oracle/sorc/mystic theurge could actually be pretty terrifying with them focusing on just one casting stat.
In fact I am playtesting that specific build right now. Sorcerer 4/Oracle 3 currently but at that level it seems pretty interesting. Sorcerer has the elemental water focus, and I am playing an Oracle of the waves.
One thing I am slightly concerned with is the Oracle's Freezing Spells focus paired up with the sorcerer's water elemental bloodline ability. As most of us should already know the Sorcerers with the elemental bloodline have the bloodline arcana to change all their damage dealing spells to the type of what element they chose. IE Cold for water elemental bloodline. That paired up with Freezing Spells Focus from the Oracle: All damaging dealing spells that require a saving throw, and the target(s) fail, are automatically slowed for 1 round, 1d4 rounds at 11th level.
Combat example:
My playtest character took flaming sphere, which is subbed for cold damage, as I am a Water Elemental Bloodline from sorcerer. Since it is a move action to direct the spell, I was using two for the duration of combat. Greater Spell Focus: Evocation allowed me to add +2 to the DC of my spells, on top of my 20 CHA since I did not really need to focus on different ability stats because of the spellcasting ability of both classes is the same, I was effectively slowing two creatures a round. That is just using a spell that requires a reflex saving throw.
I would say that maybe to balance this out it would be best to limit it only to oracle damage dealing spells with the cold subtype. However, since the oracle is only granted the cleric spell list, there is not that many spells that deal any cold damage. I would also say that redoing the spell list for the Oracle of the waves, in terms of focus spell progression would help out this limitation, by adding some spells that do more cold damage. Or even giving the player the choice on what kind of spells to choose, in my next example.
To even add a role-play spin to it, water is the element of life according to many myths. Tian’s being asian themed would definitely use oracles as a class all their own. So I would say that adding a healing element to this class would be interesting in itself.
Here’s a hypothetical spell list that gives players the choice between a destructive oracle of the waves, and an oracle of the waves that is based around the life sustaining nature of water.
Bonus Spells:
03rd – Obscuring Mist or Endure Elements
05th – Chill Metal or Lesser Restoration
07th – Sleet Storm or Water Breathing (or keep Quench)
09th – Control Water or Restoration
11th – Cone of Cold or Breath of Life
13th – Freezing Sphere or Heal
15th – Delayed Blast Fireball (Cold Subbed) or Mass Cure Serious
17th – Fire Storm (Cold Subbed and can be reworded to instead of catching fire, creatures that fail their save are stuck to the ground DC 25 to break) or Mass Cure Critical
19th – Elemental Swarm or Mass Heal
This is primarily for the Oracle of the Waves, since this is what I play tested.
I do like Devotions being switched for Foci.
Curses I feel need to be adapted for a better role play fluff, and for combat situations. And should have a more consistent level progression for when they can get better, but also end up getting worse at the same time.
For instance
I'd prefer the Curse Clouded Vision, to be complete blindness. But as level progressions go you eventually gain a better version of blindsight and the curse has an added effect negatively.
I'd also say to do away with Wasting and Lame curses.
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Hey Jason, (or James), could I get an answer on some questions I had on the Oracle.
1.) Are they limited to casting spells based on alignment, (such as a Good Oracle casting or even Knowing something like Animate Dead)?
2.) How do Oracles interact with spells that either need a deity, or offer a benefit based on a deity, (such as Hallow or Spiritual Weapon)?
My playtest will be very impacted by these, particularly #1. If they can cast spells that a Clerics alignment/deity/philosophy wouldn't allow, that could be powerful (and I'm all for it), but I can also see it being broken with a few overoptimized choices. If not, that can really cut down on a lot of possibilities for play.
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I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.
Considering their highest level spells will be 5th level and depending on how you build the class you won't even have those till around level 15, I wouldn't worry too much about them. They'll be able to pull off some neat tricks, but the enemies will make saves most of the time and they'll have an easy time countering the limited bag of tricks (immune to cold/fire/whatever?)
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I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.Considering their highest level spells will be 5th level and depending on how you build the class you won't even have those till around level 15, I wouldn't worry too much about them. They'll be able to pull off some neat tricks, but the enemies will make saves most of the time and they'll have an easy time countering the limited bag of tricks (immune to cold/fire/whatever?)
That is possible, but I can also see them getting some rediculous abilities (spell comboes). Unlike the normal Mystic Theurge, their DC will not be that bad, (and maybe better actually), because they can focus on one casting stat, and feats like Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, etc. . . will have double the benefit for them. While their spellcasting will hurt, they will recieve a lot of class features that a Mystic Theurge will not.
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Curses I feel need to be adapted for a better role play fluff, and for combat situations. And should have a more consistent level progression for when they can get better, but also end up getting worse at the same time.
Have you checked out this thread, around page 3 I actually propose something similar to this, you should take a look
That is possible, but I can also see them getting some rediculous abilities (spell comboes). Unlike the normal Mystic Theurge, their DC will not be that bad, (and maybe better actually), because they can focus on one casting stat, and feats like Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, etc. . . will have double the benefit for them. While their spellcasting will hurt, they will recieve a lot of class features that a Mystic Theurge will not.I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.Considering their highest level spells will be 5th level and depending on how you build the class you won't even have those till around level 15, I wouldn't worry too much about them. They'll be able to pull off some neat tricks, but the enemies will make saves most of the time and they'll have an easy time countering the limited bag of tricks (immune to cold/fire/whatever?)
I'll have to take a look.
The mystic theurge build will be just as good as at 10th level they get the ability to simultaneously cast a spell from each list as a standard action.
And since you get to cherry pick your spells being a spontaneous caster it could get just as deadly as the non theurge build.
But I will check both of them out and see.
I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.
This...this is going to be less powerful than a fighter. What, in particular, are you worried it will do? Most of the Oracle/sorc abilities are based on class level, or just aren't that good. And, frankly, even WITH mystic theurge, it's a pretty sucky combo. You're talking about being 4 levels behind in each casting class, which are already a level behind the prepared casters. Casting 3 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a theurge or 4-5 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a non-theurge is going to make your shared casting stat kind of unimportant. If anything, Sorcs and Oracles barely synergize at all.
I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.This...this is going to be less powerful than a fighter. What, in particular, are you worried it will do? Most of the Oracle/sorc abilities are based on class level, or just aren't that good. And, frankly, even WITH mystic theurge, it's a pretty sucky combo. You're talking about being 4 levels behind in each casting class, which are already a level behind the prepared casters. Casting 3 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a theurge or 4-5 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a non-theurge is going to make your shared casting stat kind of unimportant. If anything, Sorcs and Oracles barely synergize at all.
I have to disagree. As I mentioned in an earlier post under the Alias Juro Zhuang, I am playtesting an Oracle of the Waves and Sorcerer right now.
He has Freezing Spell Revelation and the Water Elemental Arcana. Since metamagic feats are almost a moot point with spontaneous casting I focused on Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus to up the DC's of the energy based spells that Evocation obviously gives.
At 7th level 3 Oracle/4 Sorcerer I am using 2 Flaming Spheres subbed for cold damage that slows everyone failing their save.
The shared casting ability allowed me to get Charisma as high as I needed it to be in order to ensure that they fail their saves.
So there is a possibility that this class combo can get pretty nasty.
Being a 10 Oracle/10 Sorcerer will never compete with a fighter because neither were built for fighting up in the front line.
Oracle of Battle is as best as it can get for a combat oriented oracle.
And The Draconic Bloodline has better uses being specifically out of combat.
At 7th level, flaming sphere is a really bad option.
Hell, at 3rd level it's a bad option. It's an awful spell.
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I am more worried about a 10 Oracle/ 10 Sorcerer (without Mystic Theurge). Could you see about playtesting your character with two builds? One with and one without Mystic Theurge.This...this is going to be less powerful than a fighter. What, in particular, are you worried it will do? Most of the Oracle/sorc abilities are based on class level, or just aren't that good. And, frankly, even WITH mystic theurge, it's a pretty sucky combo. You're talking about being 4 levels behind in each casting class, which are already a level behind the prepared casters. Casting 3 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a theurge or 4-5 spell levels behind a wizard/cleric with a non-theurge is going to make your shared casting stat kind of unimportant. If anything, Sorcs and Oracles barely synergize at all.I have to disagree. As I mentioned in an earlier post under the Alias Juro Zhuang, I am playtesting an Oracle of the Waves and Sorcerer right now.
He has Freezing Spell Revelation and the Water Elemental Arcana. Since metamagic feats are almost a moot point with spontaneous casting I focused on Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus to up the DC's of the energy based spells that Evocation obviously gives.
At 7th level 3 Oracle/4 Sorcerer I am using 2 Flaming Spheres subbed for cold damage that slows everyone failing their save.
The shared casting ability allowed me to get Charisma as high as I needed it to be in order to ensure that they fail their saves.
So there is a possibility that this class combo can get pretty nasty.
Being a 10 Oracle/10 Sorcerer will never compete with a fighter because neither were built for fighting up in the front line.
Oracle of Battle is as best as it can get for a combat oriented oracle.
And The Draconic Bloodline has better uses being specifically out of combat.
You're using it effectively because you aren't fighting many creatures with resistance to cold yet, it will loose power as you go higher in level. Unless you have a nice DM who intentionally looks for creatures without elemental resistance. Don't get me wrong it's an effective combo But its not game breaking or overpowered by any means. And the higher you go the less effective it gets.
Infact I've come up against creatures with Resistance to cold, it was just as effective because all I had to do was do enough damage to get over the resistance and boom slow demon.
Sure at higher levels immunity and spell resistance are going to be a problem, but at higher levels I'll have different spells to choose from.
Provided this is just one example of the Oracle too.
A Bard/Oracle of Battle can get pretty deadly if they choose the right spells and revelations.
Battle cry for instance grants a +1 to Attack, Skill checks, and Saves for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. All you need is the bard's ability to add to damage and you've pretty much helped the party across the board.
Spell Focus Enchantment and Greater Spell Focus Enchantment will later help you keep control of the battlefield.
A Fighter/Oracle of Stone probably does not need further explaination.
Let's even look at a Straight Oracle class.
Oracle of Winds - Grants the ability to protect the party as well as themself in combat situation. While allowing the oracle to stay out of harms way.
Invisibility revelation added with non attack spells keeps you out of the fight.
Vortex Spells adds better offence because a staggered creature is limited to only a move action. And this is for all attack spells so energy damage is not a limitation.
I have to disagree. As I mentioned in an earlier post under the Alias Juro Zhuang, I am playtesting an Oracle of the Waves and Sorcerer right now.
He has Freezing Spell Revelation and the Water Elemental Arcana. Since metamagic feats are almost a moot point with spontaneous casting I focused on Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus to up the DC's of the energy based spells that Evocation obviously gives.
At 7th level 3 Oracle/4 Sorcerer I am using 2 Flaming Spheres subbed for cold damage that slows everyone failing their save.
At 7th level a wizard or a cleric is throwing around 4th level spells. You have at best 2nd level spell slots (and only 1 2nd level spell, all the rest are 1st level spells!).
You spent 2 feats to increase your DCs that a pure caster will get by simply getting spells 2 levels higher.
You get to slow someone who fails a reflex save with your top level spell.
Compare it to a decent 4th level spell that can do far worse, realize it's the same DC without spending 2 feats towards DCs, and start to understand that you are working to keep your head above water here.
One thing that PF did NOT do was mitigate multiclassing a pure spell caster. It's still a bad idea and it is in no way a 'broken' combination.
-James
Why would I want to keep my Head above water as an Oracle of the waves?
I just cast water breathing and let them come into my element. :p
Why would I want to keep my Head above water as an Oracle of the waves?
I just cast water breathing and let them come into my element. :p
Cute, but you're really failing to demonstrate any especially broken power to the class combination. Your thesis (I thought) was that oracle and sorcerer made for a particularly sick mystic theurge or even a straight 50/50 level split.
Instead, you're presenting a homebrewed 2nd level spell doing 3d6 damage per round (reflex none!) as your primary offensive tool on a 7th level character. A pure sorcerer of your level would have 8d6 Scorching Ray damage per round on that spell slot (+5 ranged touch, no save), never mind a good crowd control spell like a 7d6 Fireball 5x/day at 3rd level. Plus something useful like Fly, to get away from angry ogres and freezing spheres.
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Single class pure wizard will win everytime. Remember they have intelligences of 18 or 20 versus 12 or 14 for everybody else... :P
(not bragging, but with a 5th level wizard I can kick any other equal-level class out there about 2 times out of 3... with a 7th level I can do so 100% of the time... and that was in 3.5, when the wizard had d4 and no "school powers")
Why would I want to keep my Head above water as an Oracle of the waves?
I just cast water breathing and let them come into my element. :p
Cute, but you're really failing to demonstrate any especially broken power to the class combination. Your thesis (I thought) was that oracle and sorcerer made for a particularly sick mystic theurge or even a straight 50/50 level split.
Instead, you're presenting a homebrewed 2nd level spell doing 3d6 damage per round (reflex none!) as your primary offensive tool on a 7th level character. A pure sorcerer of your level would have 8d6 Scorching Ray damage per round on that spell slot (+5 ranged touch, no save), never mind a good crowd control spell like a 7d6 Fireball 5x/day at 3rd level. Plus something useful like Fly, to get away from angry ogres and freezing spheres.
Yes it is a necessary sacrifice for the time being, but the same things about spell resistance and immunities can be said for Fireball.
My experience for both organized play and home play has been that few monsters I've fought had at most a resistance to cold. Minus the occasional skeleton here and there.
The strength I am presenting here is that you get double your worth on a spell meant only to damage by giving them the ability to effectively slow your opponent.
Against a rogue anything with a reflex save can basically go out the window.
But against a fighter of the same level you severly limit their prowess in the fight.
Even against things with multiple attacks being slowed has them choose between a move action or a standard action.
Now here's the counter arguement. Why not just get the Slow Spell?
Sure slow adds the entire strength for a will save but I argue that the other half of that strength is the damage output as part of it.
Most things I've encountered had above average will saves, but not that great of a reflex save.
When I eventually reach the higher levels for casting, I get the awe inspiring Fireball, flame strike, freezing sphere, or cone of cold.
Add those with the ability to slow any opponent caught in the AoE and you have slowed the enemy party to allow your team to buff up if necessary.
Fireball and freezing sphere with long ranges could even be great at attacking from a distance and remaining hidden.
Skizzy: You're presenting finicky, corner-case arguments that have nothing to do with my basic point. I made no mention of energy or spell resistance, fights with specific classes, or the specific value of the slow spell.
The issue I'm trying to get you to address is the essential one of combat, the ability to deal damage. Based on the usual fire attack spells, I estimate your highly specialized hybrid does roughly *half* as much damage as a conventional, zero-specialty sorcerer. I'd do the math but there's little reason to go into it - most of us can just agree that higher level spells are better at killing things.
Your only point, as I see it, is that the Freezing Spells revelation is too powerful in conjunction with a cold-specialty sorcerer. It's the only combination you mention, and you mention it often.
A better line of argument for you to use, and a possibly sustainable one, is that it's dangerous to let a sorcerer (or a wizard) dip into oracle for one level to get the Freezing Spells revelation. I will totally grant you it's a potent add-on to make all of your attack spells also slow your opponents for a round. Of course, you'd have the Curse to contend with, but a clever caster finds ways around those.
Just please, leave off telling us an 18th level caster with a Slow-ing Freezing Spheres and Cones of Cold is anywhere near the league of someone who can toss Power Word Kill.
I take no offense at this. Yes I am having my fun.
However I was arguing that case because it was being argued against me.
I know that is not the only thing available to play an oracle.
Another example I was looking into was an oracle of flame with the gaze of flames ability. Being able to see through fog, fire, and flames without penalty can be pretty lethal when you eventually get solid fog, and still have the ability to target opponents with ray spells. Or even see where to place your fireball to give you a maximum of creatures caught in the area. Even casting wall of fire in front of the party while you can see through it gives everyone the benefit of cover but you still unleash a multitude of spells against your opponents from autohit magic missiles, to Mass Inflict Light Wounds. By taking the Fey bloodline with sorcerer, you can eventually ignore the effects of difficult terrain caused by any sort of undergrowth. So add that with the Oracle of Flame's cinder dance and potentially you're the fastest one on the field, and that does not include wings of fire which can be gained at later levels.
A sorcerer with the undead bloodline gets the ability to affect corporeal undead with mind affecting spells, provided that the undead being targeted were in some way humanoid during life. Which isn't that bad considering that alot of the cleric spells are mind affecting spells, so it adds a little bit of versatility, and playing an Oracle of bones has it's own bonuses as well. Bleeding Wounds and Death's Touch synergize well together but the inflict wounds spells, and chill touch go well enough with Bleeding Wounds.
Abyssal Bloodline gives some combat abilities that can go interestingly enough with the Oracle of Battle. I.E. Growing claws as a free action then moving your speed as an immediate action at early levels, then being given a +2 to strength and the ability to use all martial weapons along with all armor.
An Oracle of Winds with the Celestial Sorcerer bloodline has the ability to resist cold 5, acid 5, and electricity 5 early on then 10 for each at later levels. Or when possible the ability to fly with a 50% miss chance against all incoming ranged attacks.
But like Draeke stated before it just comes down to if you are having fun or not.
And we've probably argued this to death anyways.
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Hear hear! thank you! sooooo much bandwith has been wasted on that ridiculous freezing sphere character concept!Be nice. If the player is having fun playing the character there is no need to ridicule him about it.
I am not ridiculing the player, but the concept. It's like that archer ranger guy I once knew... who prefered to use his flaming greatsword up front and coming near death in 50% of the fights. Fun yes, player ridicule no, concept ridicule yes. :)
D&D is a numbers game, whether you like it or not. Yet, there are a lot of people out there trying to create "coolness" concepts that are indubitably mechanically inferior than what the normal game intends in terms of balance (i.e. inferior to single classed PCs). That's fine... as long as you're aware of it and a) don't complain when the DM tells you to roll yet another character and b) don't try to convince the gaming population that your "cool" concept can go toe-to-toe vs a regular PC.
I had a "method actor" leave my campaign once because it wasn't close enough to LARPing... :P
We don't use the "L" word here man. :P
And I am fully aware that D&D is a numbers game when thought of mathematically, and I know that my character is at best just letters and numbers scratched onto a piece of paper.
I was merely stating that my example can potentially get lethal.
Right now I am just a mediocre PC at best with a one trick up my sleeve.
But what about when I get Shout that will do 5d6 cold damage deafen the target on a failed fortitude save and slow them for a round, because of the Oracle of Waves freezing spell ability does not specify a save?
As a 10th level Mystic Theurge with the ability to cast two spells in a standard action just add flame strike to that and you've practically slowed everyone you intend to unless the dice are against you that day.
That could make for an interesting villain to fight as well especially with the fluid travel ability to walk on acid or lava. All he needs is Resist Energy and he takes no damage from the environment, while the party has to traverse on a ledge or immerse themselves in the pool and take so much damage per round.