Yeah, they said they're going to be releasing the rest of the foci over the next two weeks. She should get more stuff there.
I'm glad to hear that, as I would really like to see more Foci.
But as I understand the class, it's not about focus on a specific diety, but an idea.I hope the focus don't start getting to hung up on a specific diety....
that's the Clerics sandbox ;)
only issue is as a pbp this will not be done in 2 weeks. Unless its just some random encounters or something, even then it's pushing it
How about an OpenRPG game, then? (Or whatever the current cream-of-the-crop virtual table app happens to be.)
On the "flanked" thing, I don't at all see that being flanked is an overwhelming detriment. Yes, it will let rogues have an advantage. But it makes sense. If the bonus is based on the idea of a kind of tunnel vision of single purpose, then things outside that microscope will be missed.
And I like the idea of Rogues being a minor achilles heel to cavaliers. Their "dirty" fighting takes advantage of Cavalier's "code of battle" approach (be it a Sturm Brightblade lawful stupid honor, or a Chaotic Evil obsessive arrogance).
But it isn't like rogues don't do Sneak attack without this. It happens. And I'm not seeing that as a crippling unacceptable effect.
Now, I'm also not certain that the bonuses of the challenge are good enough to make up for it. It is a class feature, and should be clearly a net plus for the cavalier. In context a weaker downside may be appropriate. But don't get knee-jerk about it. It seems to be getting written off as out of the question under any circumstances. A true weakness that a character has to work around can easily be a key element for making the character a blast to play.
Give it a chance.
Already mentioned it in the "Rules" thread, but I think instead of being considered Flanked, denying the Cavalier of any Attack of Opportunity to anyone except those being challenged, until the Challenged target drops, still confers a debuff for issuing the challenge, recognizes the concentration efforts required by the cavalier, that's why he misses the AoO by other targets - yet not so overpowered of a debuff, as in Flanked.
GP
Cavalier:
Overall, I like. Implements 'classic' Cavalier very well, while enabling 'Tangents'.
Some of the abundant bonuses could be looked at in whole context, they can add up quite large in some cases: A 12th level Cavalier with Order of Cockatrice, and their Banner out, gives their allies net +7 to hit the Challenged opponent (in multiple, rarer bonus categories (morale/circumstance/the AC penalty from Challenging stacking with everything) as long as the Cavalier is running away from the Challenged opponent! (since Demanding Challenge does not work if Cav is in target's threat area - !?!?)
The "oath" terminology seem at odds with Alignment: Any... an oath is an inherently lawful thing.
I don't see the problem. First of all, non-Lawful Alignment doesn't mean you can never act Lawful. Second, for Neutral Aligned Cav's I see no issue whatsoever, for Chaotic... well, they may just not be swearing Oath's left or right (or heck, they're the Cav's who actually end up breaking their Oaths!) Seriously, nothing forces Chaotic Aligned characters to act Chaotic IN EVERY SITUATION ("what? it's THE LAW to drive on the right side of the road? /SWERVE /CRASH"), nor forces them not to follow their word or not be loyal to their comrades. Find some other outlets for your Chaotic side :-)
I especially don't like the 24hour wait period. This will keep some players from playing a cavalier in Pathfinder Society. A lot of the Scenarios are done in less than 24 hours and therefore you would never get the chance to use your bonus, you many not even get the prerequisite 24hours in to fulfill the oath.
OR... There could be a convenient PFS rule allowing Cav's to swear Oath(s) BEFORE the game starts...
Challenge:
I think a good way to balance this ability is by making it only work against foes DIRECTLY RELEVANT to the Cavalier's Order and/or Oaths. I also think using a per/day mechanic (like Smite) rather than per/encounter makes the ability easier to balance. I saw some people found the "Flanked" aspect overly penalizing, but on second thought, the fact it only works vs melee is a pretty relevant, and if the Cavalier has allies (a major part of the class) they can cover his Flanks against "hordes of Sneak Attacking Rogues ready for a Cavalier to Challenge one of them/ their leader". If Cav is worried, pick up some Fortification Armor.
Mount: just doesn't seem like ideal wording to me.
Why not simply spell out the requirements: i.e., larger size than the Cavalier and sufficient carrying capacity, and ditch the whole confusing issue of if these are 'examples' and exactly why boars and dogs aren't suitable until 4th level. If the guidelines are clear, you don't need examples. If examples are "needed", why not include higher-power examples, like flying Mounts, given the Cav has full Companion progression? Otherwise people might assume you're not supposed to use those types.
Is is really an Oath of Chastity if you can turn it on one week and go to the whore house the next week? Maybe this just needs a name revamp?
Cavs are not supposed to have the full restrictions of Pallys. So if they go against an Oath that they probably shouldn't have taken in the 1st place, they don't get their special bennies for a period of time. But if they decide the Life of Chastity isn't for them, they can ditch that Oath and choose another (if they like). Note the Class isn't actually Lawful-restricted, it's all about "Choose your Glorious Oath" (as long as convenient-though Cavs as strict as a Paladin also exist).
Oath of Greed: Great, but it might be clarified to say "gains possession of X wealth WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT", which I took was the general intent, to exclude spending his own gold to BUY a qualifying item. I would think acquiring wealth in whatever form (i.e. a hoard of gold coins and gems) would also qualify, but the wording indicates needing a singular item that meets the value requirement.
Mechanically this one if odd... a cavalier can simply enact this oath whenever he gains an item with the appropriate value? He doesn't need to swear the oath before hand and really dedicate himself to the greed?
Also the line "He loses this bonus if he willing gives away wealth or an object of value without receiving proper compensation..." may pose problem for some groups cause everytime the party finds a magic item they have to go through the process of compensating the other party members for the items cost rather than simply handing them out to who ever can use them (this is of course a play style choice but the mechanics sorta dictate a particular play style).
The Cav is limited to the # of Oaths they can swear by level, so they need to have an open Oath "slot" if they want to swear one. Running around with an empty oath means they aren't benefitting at all from that slot, until they swear an oath. That said, there's probably similar benefits to Wizards leaving spell slots unprepared.
I think this Oath should be clarified to not allow paying/compensating for an item, so if you have this Oath you probably WILL be out to bully/ cheat party members to get all the loot for yourself. Given the Order of Dragon, not all Cavaliers are meant to "get along and play well with others".Oath of Loyalty: Over-all concept is Great, but I wonder about the details. I don't think it should be so focused on the specific "Aid Another" action. For one, you could be eminently helpful and loyal but never find need to use the "Aid Another" action, and secondly, it seems trivial to achieve: "Oh, Rodrigo, why don't I help you open that door (STR check DC5), why don't I help you count the ABCs (Linguistics DC1), etc..." Unless every 6 seconds in an entire day is spoken for, it's trivial to think of SOMETHING you could Aid Another with: Aid Another (action) just isn't the best 'proof' of loyalty here.
Oath of Protection: This is great, very specific yet appropriate, unlike Loyalty.
This actually encourages the cavalier to protect the heavily armored fighter rather than the squishy wizard in the back. The odds are the wizard's going to get hit more often (low AC) compared to the fighter in plate mail.
Sure, if maintaing Oath benefits is his #1 concern - which is blatant metagaming to start. But seriously, yes the Mage is easier to hit (maybe, considering mirror image++) and squishier (definitely), so defending the Mage is probably the BEST thing to do for a defending-specialist.
Oath of Vengeance: I think this could be opened up to 'members of X organization'
Demanding Challenge: I honestly can't see why the AC penalty doesn't persist when the Cavalier is within their threat area... If anything it seems like it should be MORE.
Supreme Charge: Great, only thing is It should be clarified how the double/triple damage interacts with Crits. (I know Crits themselves exclude this damage multiplication, but it seems consistent with the style of the Core rules to point this out here.)
The Challenge ability seems to potentially stack with ALOT of other bonuses to allies:
At 12th level, the Cav gives net +7att vs Challenge Target to his allies (incl. AC penalty).
The Aid Another upgrade is nice and flavorful.
Re: Tactics ,
I don't believe 'immediate move action' is an actual game term, so it's better to stick to the actual game terms and just say "an immediate action that allows movement up to their Move Rate". A little more flavor for this ability might be nice to give it more of a 'visual', and perhaps restrictions (able to see/hear/communicate with Cav).
Act as One is nice.
Order of Dragon:
re: CHA mod to apply vs. Intimidate, also applying it vs. Fear Saves seems reasonable.
re: Braggart, I think just saying it works like Dazzling Display is simple and also conveys the fact that a Dragon Cavalier doesn't really need to take Dazzling Display. Additional effects/limitations could be mentioned afterwards, of course.
Steal Glory, Moment of Triump: nice, auto-crit confirm @15th is heavy (and makes fighter jealous, which is always the point of course) but only 1/day keeps it reasonable.
Order of Lion:
these are the guys you want to charm to make them think you're king :-)
Shield of the Liege's swift action re-direct is good, but +2 AC Bonus seems underwhelming at this level.
Why not give the benefit of the Cavalier's ACTUAL Shield (+2 if no Shield) to adjacent allies? (which would tend to be higher AC, and maybe Fortification, Ghost Touch, other properties). I would limit it to allies adjacent or behind the Cavalier: if an ally is inbetween you and the attacker, I don't see how you're going to shield them very well.
Re: Cover/Concealment aspect, if you and your allies are in a Fog Cloud, how does lunging to defend them negate that concealment? I would say that the Cav uses whichever is the worse cover/concealment of his original position and the defended ally.
Order of Shield:
Resolute:
I think the wording on this could be alot clearer. Why not express it as DR/- that stacks with any other DR, but then applies the same amount as non-lethal damage? Otherwise, great ability and very flavorful.
Stem the Tide: Nice, and works even better vs. the big brutes!
Protect the MeeK: +++
Order of Star:
Skills: I might consider just saying they gain all Class Skills a Cleric of their Religion would, which allows for things like Know:Nature if of a Nature Deity, or Bluff/Disguise/Stealth if of a Trickster God, or Spellcraft if of a God of Magic, etc...
Otherwise, looks good, if nothing amazing compared to the others. As is, I expect many who like the flavor of this would choose others that are compatable with the 'mission' of allying with specific Church/Diety.
Order of Sword:
This could really be called Order of the Horse, but that doesn't sound as noble...
Only thing: the bonus DMG on mounted charge from Mount's STR bonus possibly shouldn't be multiplied on a Crit. Their mounted charges are dependably powerful without it, and seem good enough without crit multiplication of Big/STR Mounts' STR Bonus. Instead, maybe a Bonus Feat for the Mount/Companion itself (not just Mounted Combat Feat for Cavalier themself), or some other upgrade to the Mount (could be just applying Cav bonuses to Mount all the time or something)
On topic, and curious.
Anyone want to start a quick PbP playtest using a Paizo module? Make it a Cav/Oracle only party of 3-6 PC's.
I could/would GM if anyone wants in. I believe I have access to Demon Within and the first two parts of both Legacy of Fire and Council of Thieves AP's.
Any interested parties can email me at chaotral AT gmail DOT com.
First come first served!
Here's the beginning of an oracle; I don't know what level to make her. If we're to run a quick playtest, we ought to skip straight to some action instead of doing all the fun character-establishing stuff.
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Here's the beginning of an oracle; I don't know what level to make her. If we're to run a quick playtest, we ought to skip straight to some action instead of doing all the fun character-establishing stuff.
Awesome, thank you. And yes, I agree that straight to the chase is best.
I'll start the thread and link it after dinner.
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Hmm... I think two separate groups would be a good idea: one Cavalier, Oracle, Paladin, Sorcerer and one Cavalier, Oracle, Barbarian, Cleric. See how they synergize with, and stack up to, their closest niche competition.Either way, I wouldn't mind joining. :)
Agreed on splitting the groups, but alas I am but one woman and even this might be more than I can easily juggle between work and my wife's game.
Chargen in my games is easy enough. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, assign as you see fit. Post with the new profile in reply here and we'll get the show on the road ASAP.
Cheers!
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Thread is started for my PbP Beta Playtest. It's over here
Y'all want this party started quickly... right?
Cheers!
even as I like rolling ya might want to go point by to better judge what they can do. With rolling ya can get some powerful pc's and the mods are not geared toward someone with two 16's and a 18 and everything else 12's
just a thought
Challenge:
I think a good way to balance this ability is by making it only work against foes DIRECTLY RELEVANT to the Cavalier's Order and/or Oaths. I also think using a per/day mechanic (like Smite) rather than per/encounter (what!? isn't this 3.75?) makes the ability easier to balance.
I have to competely agree with this. As I wrote on the Dreamscarred press Forum regarding some features of the Alpha Soulknife,
"The other thing is regarding the ‘per encounter’ abilities (...) – please note, not the abilities themselves (they are very cool), but rather their ‘recharge’ method. In 4th Edition, a ‘per encounter’ ability could work. But in Pathfinder, there are no ‘Short Rests’, so how can a GM allow a character to refresh his abilities between encounters? How much time requires the ability to ‘cool down’ after the end of the encounter? What could possibly constitute a single ‘encounter’, in the first place?
My questions could seem really easy to answer, but let’s consider an assault to an inner yard of a castle, surrounded by barracks. The Soulknife uses one of his ‘per encounter’ abilities to dispatch one of the guards; however, the alarm is raised nonetheless, and what previously could have been a series of 4 encounters (each with an ECL of 4) becomes a massive combat composed of a single encounter with an ECL of 8. Now, since the encounter is still the same, the consumed ‘per encounter’ ability cannot be recharged – and this becomes a huge balancing problem.
Basically, this leads to a ‘Reverse Nova’ problem ,where a single encounter per day cripples the abilities of the Soulknife, while an endless wave of little encounters gives an endless number of the same ability – provided a ‘cooldown time’ (again, still not specified) is possible between each encounter.
So, please, give them these abilities a number of times per day, or per hour, or whatever – but not per encounter. Without the 4th Edition ‘Short Rest’ mechanics, it simply could not work."
Now, you can easily susbtitute 'Soulknife' in the above example with 'Cavalier', and all the mentioning to 'per encounter abilities' with 'Challenge', and the result would be the same.
Dreamscarred Press went for the solution of changing the 'per encounter' abilities with a recharge method involving the expenditure of Psionic Focus; obviously, such method is not feasable for the Cavalier (no Psionic Focus is present at all), but either a Per Day ability (as Quandary proposed above) or a 'recharging method' (only after his target is target is dead or unconscious) requiring a full-round action to refocus himself - maybe with a 'caster level check' using the Cavalier level against a flat DC (20 or more) - would be way better (IMHO).
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even as I like rolling ya might want to go point by to better judge what they can do. With rolling ya can get some powerful pc's and the mods are not geared toward someone with two 16's and a 18 and everything else 12's
just a thought
Good point. I'll see how the initial read comes out and then if the stats aren't stacking up then point buy it.
Gold star for bringing to my attention.
I am going to be lobbying HARD from a fairly persuasive position in the company for a new name for this. I agree that it is too confusing. Had I not been on the road constantly for the last month, I would have suggested "mystery," to riff on the idea of mystery cults of the ancient world (which is at least part of the inspiration for the oracle class), but there are plenty of other names that would also work.
I concur with Erik, the term "focus" already has a meaning in the game and should not be reused. "Mystery" is great!
Y'all want this party started quickly... right?
Play that beat, play that beat -- bang'um.
Good point. I'll see how the initial read comes out and then if the stats aren't stacking up then point buy it.
I got 16, 15, 15, 13, 11, 6. Believe that comes out to 22 points, heh.
I'd happily go to elite array if we want to keep it rigorous. (I've run whole campaigns with that as the only option, it works fine.) But really, numbers are easy; doesn't take a playtest to find stupid stacking tricks or just-plain-broken systems. We should be concentrating on rules clarity, whether there's a nice feel to each order and focus, whether abilities trip over or conflict with each other in less-obvious ways (or whether "obvious" issues are actually not a problem in real play), and various other things for which some ability variance is not a major factor.
I am going to be lobbying HARD from a fairly persuasive position in the company for a new name for this. I agree that it is too confusing. Had I not been on the road constantly for the last month, I would have suggested "mystery," to riff on the idea of mystery cults of the ancient world (which is at least part of the inspiration for the oracle class), but there are plenty of other names that would also work.
--Erik
I am all for using the term mystery, but I am coming from a biased position in that spontaneous divine casters in our setting of choice are called Mystics, and they are already called mysteries ;)
The term Spheres and Disciplines has also been used historically.
ok my entire post disappeared, weird. Now I just have to shorten it.
Cavalier: Needs to be different from WotC's Complete Warrior Cavalier prestige class. I had suggestions for more mounted abilities, like being able to add a template to it (imagine a Fire template steed!). Make it more of a class and not a prestige class. Needs to scream out "I am not a full class version of a PrC, not a non-divine Paladin and not a non-mounted Knight (from PHB2)"
Oracle: Grant a substitute ability, like how Paladin can choose between Bonded mount or weapon, and Wizard can either choose familiar or item. Oracle should have something to choose between Channel Energy and ???. Also give it proficiency with Medium armor. Also, give it ALL good saves like the Monk. For someone born with inner divine power, it should have "Outsider-like" saving throws, not just Will while the Cleric has two good saves.
That's my paraphrase, I had more than that, but my post never posted and I don't feel like re-typing all of it again.
Oracle: Grant a substitute ability, like how Paladin can choose between Bonded mount or weapon, and Wizard can either choose familiar or item. Oracle should have something to choose between Channel Energy and ???. Also give it proficiency with Medium armor. Also, give it ALL good saves like the Monk. For someone born with inner divine power, it should have "Outsider-like" saving throws, not just Will while the Cleric has two good saves.That's my paraphrase, I had more than that, but my post never posted and I don't feel like re-typing all of it again.
Unless I completely missed it, Oracle's don't get channel energy at all.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, give it ALL good saves like the Monk. For someone born with inner divine power, it should have "Outsider-like" saving throws, not just Will while the Cleric has two good saves.
Outsiders only get 2 good saves now in Pathfinder. Only monks and dragons get all good saves.
Oracle: Grant a substitute ability, like how Paladin can choose between Bonded mount or weapon, and Wizard can either choose familiar or item. Oracle should have something to choose between Channel Energy and ???. Also give it proficiency with Medium armor. Also, give it ALL good saves like the Monk. For someone born with inner divine power, it should have "Outsider-like" saving throws, not just Will while the Cleric has two good saves.
The Oracle gets to pick 6/10 revelations from their focus (mystery, please). That's even more choices than an either/or.
The cavalier worries me with being set up all around one specific combat maneuver. I would like to see more Combat control abilities, and the ability to do different things while charging.
Charge Charge Charge, gets boring the same way "swing swing swing" does.
Perhaps instead of everything simply increasing the charge damage, critical range, and damage again, having the following being given:
Ability to perform other combat maneuvers on a successful hit (i.e. trip, bullrush or the like on a successful charge). Capstone that allows the Cavalier to full attack on a charge (now that's something no one else can do, doesn't replicate a much lower level feat, and is powerful), and possibly something that allows him to flank from a position other than where he is standing (like from adjacent squares).
Currently the Cavalier feels like a mash up of a bard, paladin and fighter without much focus on combining or integrating the abilities effectively into something different that a simple multi class character.
Outsiders only get 2 good saves now in Pathfinder. Only monks and dragons get all good saves.Also, give it ALL good saves like the Monk. For someone born with inner divine power, it should have "Outsider-like" saving throws, not just Will while the Cleric has two good saves.
Really? er, wow, makes no sense. Don't see why dragons are more perfect beings than extraplanar beings are, they are made up of otherworldly, dimensional, essence itself...weird. Thanks for the heads up on that, time for yet another Pathfinder house rule. (which I seem to have so many of now)
I'm Playtesting a 7th level Cavalier.
At first, damage from the Cavalier's Challenge appeared to be way too brutal, but in actuality it is only slightly better than the Paladin smite. If you compare the average roll at various levels to the Paladin you'll see the Cavalier's damage surge when it gets another die, and then the Paladin slowly, almost but not quite, catch up. Of course the Paladin is getting better to-hit and AC too.
The Cavalier's Challenge ability is not always being countered by Rogues because it doesn't make sense to have Rogues in every encounter. The best mitigating factor to the Cavalier's Challenge so far is to have lots of lesser opponents, rather than one obvious major opponent.
Possible alterations:
* In addition to flanking penalties, give the Cavalier a -2 Dex Save penalty, let the Calm Emotions spell suppress the ability, and end the ability if the Cavalier goes unconscious.
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One of my players just pointed out that there's no starting gold listed for the new classes.
My thoughts are that a Cavalier equips similarly to a Paladin and an Oracle similar to a Cleric. By which I mean that Cavaliers have armor and weapons to worry about as a Fighter or Paladin and Oracles like a Cleric. (Yes, I know I just said the same thing twice, it's that kind of day here at work)
My 2cp, just for you!
just popping in but I would give the Oracle the starting gold of a Sorcerer,druid and wizard or the bard's as they only can have simple weapons, and light armor and they are not a class dependent upon gear nor heavy armor. . But myself I would give em 2d6x10
just a thought
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just popping in but I would give the Oracle the starting gold of a Sorcerer,druid and wizard or the bard's as they only can have simple weapons, and light armor and they are not a class dependent upon gear nor heavy armor. . But myself I would give em 2d6x10
just a thought
... Well, that'll teach me to GLANCE rather than READ. Agreed, sorc/druid/wiz starting cash makes more sense.
Another +1 from me for "Mystery" instead of Foci.
That must put Mystery at... +539 by now, give or take :-)
Hmmm...the Order of the Cockatrice doesn't seem to measure up with a knight who protects the ones whom he calls friends and comrades. How about this as a replacement:
Cavaliers belonging to the order of the silver dragon dedicate themselves to protecting those they cherish as friends, comrades, and loved ones. They may swear to a spouse, their family, or even a small band of adventurers with whom they travel. These cavaliers believe in loyalty and friendship and are willing to lay down their lives to protect the ones they care about.
Edicts: The cavalier must remain loyal to his allies and must always work to further the aims of the group. He must protect his allies from harm and defend their honor when called into doubt.
Challenge: Whenever an order of the silver dragon cavalier issues a challenge, his allies receive a +1 circumstance bonus on melee attack rolls against the target of his challenge whenever he is threatening the target. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: An order of the silver dragon cavalier adds Perception (Wis) and Survival (Wis) to his list of class skills. In addition, whenever an order of the silver dragon cavalier uses Survival to provide food and water for his allies or to protect his allies from harsh weather, he receives a bonus on the
Order Abilities: A cavalier that belongs to the order of the silver dragon gains the following abilities as he increases in level.
Call to Battle (Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier can, as a free action, grant all allies within 10 feet an additional saving throw against fear effects. At 8th level, and every six levels thereafter, the saving through attempted by any of the cavalier’s allies affected by this ability may be made at a +1 bonus. This bonus increases by an additional +1 for every six levels thereafter.
Bond of Loyalty (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can, as a free action, grant all allies within 10 feet an additional saving throw against a charm or mind affecting spell or ability. At 14th level, the saving through attempted by any of the cavalier’s allies affected by this ability may be made at a +1 bonus. This bonus increases by an additional +1 for every six levels thereafter.
None Shall Pass (Ex): At 14th level, the cavalier can, once per day, as a free action, apply his challenge to all enemies within 10 feet. This lasts until the end of combat.
Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): At 20th level, if the cavalier are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves the cavalier’s body intact, instead of dying, the cavalier remains conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. The cavalier can use this ability even if the cavalier’s hit point total is -10 or lower. f your body is somehow destroyed before your next action (such as by disintegrate), then you cannot act. If you receive healing that leaves you with more than -10 hit points, you survive (or fall unconscious, as appropriate to your new hit point total) when the extra round is over. Otherwise, death overtakes you when the extra round ends.
No chance to playtest yet but I have to say, I haven't WANTED to play two classes as badly as I do the Cavalier and Oracle in ages!
We've got a character in our Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign who is almost certainly going to get converted into a Cavalier. Will post up reports when that player switches out from DMing (we're almost done with his module in the rotation; we're headed into A History of Ashes, so there'll actually be a lot of good open area encounters for mounted combat, too!).
... Well, that'll teach me to GLANCE rather than READ. Agreed, sorc/druid/wiz starting cash makes more sense.
I think bard-equivalent 3d6 is more appropriate. They wear light armor and shields, and can use metal ones unlike a druid.
Voting with the change of Focus/foci
Mysteries is swell.
Does the Cavalier really need 4+int skill points? If it is closest to Paladins, they don't seem to need the the two more skill points.
Oh, and as a player I am a skill point wh... um fiend. But I like the "idea" of balance between classes. :)
I would just like to say, in general, I'm very pleased with both of these classes.
The Oracle is great, and very mechanically clean (doesn't have too many things going on at once).
The Cavalier isn't perfect, but it's still quite good, and, more importantly, it's not really much like the paladin at all. I can see a huge difference between a knight templar and a courtly romantic knight, and both of those things are cool.
As for skills, I think the cavalier needs 4. They're more skill dependent than either a paladin or a fighter. It doesn't hurt the Oracle either, since they're a bit more hodgepodge than your standard cleric, and may need to know how to do stranger things.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Comments:
Cavalier's Mount should gain link/evasion/etc after 1 level OR 1 month of dedicated "training" otherwise the penalty for death is very strong. Did I miss something and Druids have this restriction as well?
Cavalier Cockatrice Act as One "This movement and attack can be made as a charge." The meaning of this isn't clear. Does this mean you can charge as a standard? Or does it mean you can Charge as a Standard only when you normally can Charge as a Standard (like on a surprise round?)
Cavalier Dragon Skills "adds his Cha modifier to ... Intimidate in addition to his Wis modifier as normal." I think this is backwards? Cha is normal, does this allow Wis also?
Cavalier Shield Protect the Meek "single melee attack" has the same issue as Vital Strike on a Spring Attack has. If/when FAQ comes out to clarify what "single melee attack" means (like if it allows Vital Strike) then nothing needs to change in this wording.
Oracle Battle Iron Skin (Su) should list the action if it is not using the default of Standard Action for Su abilities.
Oracle Battle Skill at Arms (Ex), so an Oracle gets Heavy Armour but not a Cleric ;-) Couldn't resists the jab, does that make me a bad person?
Oracle Battle Surprising Charge (Ex) should probably not be named "Charge" to differentiate between the Charge ability and this Ex. In other words naming it something like "Surprising Surge" or adding "This does not count as a Charge" would eliminate confusion.
Oracle Bones Armour of Bones (Su) should list the action if it is not using the default of Standard Action for Su abilities.
Oracle Soul Siphon (Su) this uses the same wording as CMage Acidic Splatter "as a ranged touch attack" and people endless debate whether or not that means multiple attacks on a full attack action. You need to clarify this is a Standard Action, despite the ) This clarification could just as easily go in a FAQ that says "whenever something says 'as a ranged touch attack' it is a standard action.) If done in FAQ, please make the FAQ considered Errata.
Oracle Flame Gaze of Flames (Su), the rounds limitation is on the clairvoyance ability? Is the first sentence "flavor text" and not a rule? So the only rule is the one beginning with "At 7th level"?
Oracle All FInal Revelation needs to make it clear these can be used without needing to have these feats.
Oracle Waves Punitive Transformation (Su) should list the action if it is not using the default of Standard Action for Su abilities.
Focus, not loving that the wordI would have suggested "mystery,"
I prefer Mystery also for the same reasons (confusion and flavor.)
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The cavalier worries me with being set up all around one specific combat maneuver. I would like to see more Combat control abilities, and the ability to do different things while charging.
Charge Charge Charge, gets boring the same way "swing swing swing" does.
Perhaps instead of everything simply increasing the charge damage, critical range, and damage again, having the following being given:
Ability to perform other combat maneuvers on a successful hit (i.e. trip, bullrush or the like on a successful charge). Capstone that allows the Cavalier to full attack on a charge (now that's something no one else can do, doesn't replicate a much lower level feat, and is powerful), and possibly something that allows him to flank from a position other than where he is standing (like from adjacent squares).
Currently the Cavalier feels like a mash up of a bard, paladin and fighter without much focus on combining or integrating the abilities effectively into something different that a simple multi class character.
Interesting points... indeed, it may be that Oaths and the Order are not enough to differentiate the Cavalier from Fighter, Knight or Paladin (esp. if you're using Vows from BoED).
Full attack with Charge would be a good suggestion for their capstone ability (I also like your suggestion about combat maneuvers, Abraham).
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+1 more for Mysteries.
As one of our local PFS judges I looked at teh classes from that POV.
I found very little about the Oracle that would limit them in PFS play.
Cavalier on the other hand...
Few PFS modules give you the chance or ability for mounted combat.
The Oaths, most needing a 24hr period before activating, don't work well. Justice, Loyalty, and Vengeance stand out as the few that can.
Demanding Challenge: Let me get this straight, A Cavalier specializes in Melee weapons and is a greater threat to his target at a distance than right beside him? And if the target has reach, then the Cavalier has to stay farther away to use this ability.
As for the Orders:(flavor wise)
Cockatrice - works well with the ideals of the Pathfinder society. I can see this being a popular one.
Dragon - Anyone esle see this as the supreme order for Chelaxian characters?
Lion - doesn't fit with the society as it is a meta-national org.
Shield - As Chels to the Dragon I see Andorans flocking to this order.
Star - I'm not getting a definite feel either for or against how it's flavor works with PFS.
Sword - can work well in PFS play.
Cavalier Dragon Skills "adds his Cha modifier to ... Intimidate in addition to his Wis modifier as normal." I think this is backwards? Cha is normal, does this allow Wis also?
Directly the PDF says:
"In addition, an order of thedragon cavalier adds his Charisma modifier to the
DC on attempts to demoralize him through Intimidate
(in addition to his Wisdom modifier, as normal)."
You missed the part about it being "adds Cha mod to DCs on attempts to...", I believe. Hopes this should clarify it.
Maybe the Oracle's [suggested] bond could be called 'Mystic Bond' or something?
I like the idea of calling the "Foci" Mysteries as well, as do I believe does all of m players. We debated a few other names, but found none as flavourful and at the same time hitting the point as Mysteries.
In that idea, I believe that a "Mystic Bond" could be quite interesting, although, the Oracle having some similarities to the Sorcerer in spellcasting type and the Cleric in spells, I might find a "Bond" to make it far more (in lack of a better wording) druidistic/shamanistic. I could see the idea in making it "object only" to avoid more of the companion/familiar classes and add to the "strange and exotic" feeling of the Oracle. I can perfectly visualize Oracles carying some weird item related to their "Mystery/Focus".
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Cavalier Dragon Skills "adds his Cha modifier to ... Intimidate in addition to his Wis modifier as normal." I think this is backwards? Cha is normal, does this allow Wis also?
The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier.
Charisma is added to skill checks to intimidate normally. Wisdom is added to the DC to resist intimidation. The Cavalier gets his charisma modifier there as well. (He loves himself so much, no one else matters.)
+1 more for Mysteries.
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A player of mine couldn´t help making an oracle, so here are a few obsrvations from our game on Saturday.
He chose to make a lvl 7 Gnome Wind Oracle with the tongues curse.
- First of all he had a blast with his curse, he chose to use it ouside of battle as well whenever he got nervious.
- Second, the choice of race seemed like a no brainer, Cha and Con plus some spell like abilities worked great for his buffer/healer concept.
- The flight and Invisibility the Wind oracles can get is amazing, minute per level duration makes it so he can first round invisibility plus flight every time every fight. It really makes up for the lack of spells known (not having to learn flight or invisibility is huge).
- After becoming invisible and flyin on that first round he focused on using wands for battlefield control (bless you UMD and high charisma) and healing whenever necesary.
- Al and all the stealth capabilities of this Focus were very impressive (he was the wind)
In order to better reflect the Cavaliers devotion I think the class should have access to ONE Knowledge skill. Religion, nobility and history being obvious choices, but depending on the object of devotion any one might probably be justifiable.
Okay Oracle... liked it but one big BIG thing that turned me off the whole thing flat out... Why isn't the Harrow Deck a Focus?! I mean Paizo makes the deck, they make a prestige class involving it, why the heck not have it as atleast an option when it comes to the focuses. You can read waves, bones, fire, the wind or even the earth but not cards?! Really now?!
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In order to better reflect the Cavaliers devotion I think the class should have access to ONE Knowledge skill. Religion, nobility and history being obvious choices, but depending on the object of devotion any one might probably be justifiable.Concur
I like the fact that your order adds knowledge skills. It makes sense that whatever your focus was would influence your skills.( Sword gets knowledge( Nobility, Religion ) for example )
