Since there is a Bard on your party you can use a sword&board aproach or TWF, there main disadvantages where that they have a big to hit penalty but any bard can easily over compensate that. Even more those builds extract the greatest amount of juice out of the bard.
Also ask your DM about how thematic your opponents are going to be, if they are going to be offshots you may probably want the Guide Archetype from the APG.
Wich remembers me, the trait to raise your caster level by 2 its a really great power boost at low level levels and remains decent at high levels, specially with all the cool spells in the APG.
Humbly,
Yawar
Eh, out of the weapon options I think I'll probably stick to a Mighty Composite Longbow and a Elven Curve Blade. That way I would still benefit from the higher critical range.
From what I know of opponents most of them will be the fairly common types: Magical Beasts, Humans, Dwarves, etc. So I think sticking with the favored enemy will probably benefit me more than the Guide Archetype. In fact I'm thinking of picking up the Infiltrator Archetype to benefit from different abilities. We're starting at third level, so I figured on picking magical beasts as my first favored enemy so that I can pick up darkvision 60 for 30 minutes a day right now. If we do any underground combat it would give me the ability to keep up with the dwarves, and taking advantage of my superior perception checks.
As for race traits I was actually considering trading in the Elven Magic trait. +2 to overcoming spell resistance won't be that useful as a ranger. If it effected duration on my spells it'd be another matter. But either the Eternal Grudge (If my DM allows it due to Dwarves in the party, but his campaign is very customized), or the Silent Hunter trait.
If I do a Switch Hitter or Dedicated Archer build I'm looking at...
Str 18
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 13
Cha 12
With the removal of the need for Quick Draw I could pick up Toughness to offset my reduced HP. However I might also be fine without it, as such I may wait and see for the exact type of enemies that engage us. At level 4 obviously I'll up my Wisdom to 14 so that I'll have access to all of my spells.
Can I get some advice here for legacy of fire. What should I choose for my favored enemies?
Gnoll seems so very specific?
Should I rather go for Guide instead of Favored Enemy.
Great guide!!!
I'm in a campaign and we're using this point buy system:
6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2
Add up these numbers however you want for the ability scores as long as they're all between 18 and 7. So my human switch hitter could have by 5th level:
20 (18 + 2) 14 (13 + 1) 14 14 10 7. Would I be better off lowering my strength to raise my dex and have a more well rounded character?
After re-reading the Switch-hitter I have the following question...
"Level 6: Add feats: Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Rapid Shot Dex has been increased to 14 at level 4: Equipment: Now the character is using a Greatsword and a Mighty Composite Longbow (+4 str).
The first part suggests that the Ranger can move and make 1 attack using 2 arrows [Many Shot] but Many Shot is a Full Round Action.
The second part also has me confused. How can all three "attacks" be at the same bonus [+5]?
Rapid Shot would be -2, -2, and -5 for the lower BAB attack
Many Shot would only involve 2 attacks, one at full bab with 2 arrows, and one a -5 bab.
Any ideas anyone?
Greetings, fellow travellers.
My calculation is as follows:
+6 BAB (6th lvl ranger)
+2 due to Dex 14
+1 due to mighty bow (assuming +1 at lvl 6)
nets you +9 attack bonus (as stated in TM's original post). Many shot does not come with an AB penalty. It is a full round action - so no moving, only 5-foot-step.
Maybe the feat was changed from Nov 2009 till now? It was a standard action in D&D 3.5 (see SRD: Many shot).
He is even writing it that way in his guide:
"Manyshot ****: You can now put 2 arrows into the air with a standard attack, or at least one extra on a full attack, and they all should be delivering very nice damage."
Then you add Rapid shot - one additional attack. So you apply Many shot to get an additional attack (with the same roll) at your highest AB and Rapid shot adds another attack, albeit all attacks are made at -2.
This would result in 3 arrows with two attack rolls at +7 and an additional attack at +4 (+1 BAB +2 Dex +1 mighty bow) with your iterative attack due to BAB +6.
Now to my question: has somebody a clue why the link to the ranger guide only gives me the darn google doc crap, but all other guides are accessible - and even more important: can somebody hint me in the direction how I can access the nicely color coded version again without opening an account with the data kraken?
Thanks.
Ruyan.
This would result in 3 arrows with two attack rolls at +7 and an additional attack at +4 (+1 BAB +2 Dex +1 mighty bow) with your iterative attack due to BAB +6.
You forgot the -2 from Rapid Shot in your calculation. Should be +7/+7/+2
Now to my question: has somebody a clue why the link to the ranger guide only gives me the darn google doc crap, but all other guides are accessible - and even more important: can somebody hint me in the direction how I can access the nicely color coded version again without opening an account with the data kraken?
Thanks.Ruyan.
If you mail me at tricky.bob @ Sky.com I'll send you a full colour Ranger guide pdf!
Thanks for your offer, Stuart Haffenden, but I colour coded it myself in the meantime.
Ruyan.
Greetings all,
I've received several email requests for access to my Ranger guide over the past 3 days.
When I accessed my google doc account there was a message that there had been unusual activity and it had been shut down.
Once I got it going again, my Ranger guide had a message that it had been flagged for inappropriate content.
I've submitted for google to review the doc, not sure whether there's a picture on there I'm not allowed or something, there's no message as to why it's been flagged.
Apparently I cannot share the doc until the review is done, so I'll message here when I know more. Until then, I guess consider the guide temporarily down.
I love your guide, and have gained a fair amount of mileage out of it, however I'd still like to see it updated for Bestiary companions and APG options :)
The PFSRD still has a copy of the guide i'll post a link to it
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This version appears to work fine: Treantmonk's Ranger Guide. I'm not sure it's the most current version, it's the same version that's on the d20 site but without the frame.
Just wanted to thank Treantmonk!
Yesterday I've been using the switch-hitter (with a few changes since we have the APG).
It was a two player game at level 12, so I picked the Switch-hitter for his versatility (my buddy was playing a Mystic theurge)
I actually made him a Guide. Hurts to give up evasion, but all the new powers are solid.
Ranger's luck and Inspired moment basically saved my life twice during the game, and Ranger focus made sure I was the Boss killer I wanted to be.
And at 4 times a day, not only the boss got to cry upon activation!
All non ambushed fights started with impressive archery (helped by the APG spell Eagle Aspect) especially since the Mystic Theurge had a love for haste. And since most fights were in forest (my ranger's favorite field) plant growth made it even smoother.
When ennemies finally closed in, a keen +2 Falchion quickdrawed in their face 4 times with Furious Focus making sure the first hit landed with full power attack and huge chance of landing a critical.
The amount of damage I've dealt during the game was really absurd, and i almost had one critic strike per round, sometimes even more!
As expected the defense was the only "weakness" of the character, but Stoneskin and Shield other made sure I could stay up front and not worry too much.
Everybody around the table praised the build, so once again thanks Treantmonk, I really had a blast with this character!
I notice that the guide suggest skipping precise shot and going to improved precise shot, but one feat affects shooting into melee, and the other affects the soft cover AC bonus. That means you need both by RAW to avoid all the penalties. That makes the switch hitter a little harder to pull off.
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I notice that the guide suggest skipping precise shot and going to improved precise shot, but one feat affects shooting into melee, and the other affects the soft cover AC bonus. That means you need both by RAW to avoid all the penalties. That makes the switch hitter a little harder to pull off.
The idea is that once combat closes to melee range you won't be shooting the bow anymore anyway. As such you won't need precise shot.
Why would I close into melee if I can kill you from a safe distance? If I intend to close into melee then why am I bothering with Archery feats?
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Why would I close into melee if I can kill you from a safe distance? If I intend to close into melee then why am I bothering with Archery feats?
You...uh, didn't read the switch hitter build description, I guess. I mean, the Archer Ranger is a separate build entirely. Both have their ups and downs, but the point of a Switch Hitter is to be able to do well and effectively in both melee and at range.
Why would I close into melee if I can kill you from a safe distance? If I intend to close into melee then why am I bothering with Archery feats?
The idea of the switch hitter is that you are building a melee character that get enough 'free' archery feats to also be 'good enough' at range.
I'm wondering what people think of the viability of a two-handed weapon Ranger, using the Two-Handed Weapon style from the APG. The feats available seem somewhat less than stellar, and with focusing on STR rather than DEX, I wonder how hampered I will end up in terms of AC.
I'm kind of intrinsically opposed to the idea that a build relies on mithral full plate, and it seems just... out of character for a ranger in general, I guess, so if we were to take that off the table, is this a viable option?
I'm wondering what people think of the viability of a two-handed weapon Ranger, using the Two-Handed Weapon style from the APG. The feats available seem somewhat less than stellar, and with focusing on STR rather than DEX, I wonder how hampered I will end up in terms of AC.
I'm kind of intrinsically opposed to the idea that a build relies on mithral full plate, and it seems just... out of character for a ranger in general, I guess, so if we were to take that off the table, is this a viable option?
Minsc was a two handed ranger.
'Butt Kicking! For Goodness!
Go for the eyes, Boo! GO FOR THE EYES! YAARRGH!
It's been so long since I played any Baldur's Gate games that I had completely forgotten him.
But it doesn't really answer my question :)
Is a greatsword wielding ranger going to be effective as a melee combatant, or is he quickly going to find himself reduced to a corpse? I'm going to be playing in a game starting at level 1 and eventually going to going through the Castle Ravenloft campaign.
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Heavy Armor Proficiency ***: A good expenditure of a feat so you can wear Mithril Full Plate
I seriously question the validity of this in the switch-hit build -- while DEX is (slightly) less important than STR in this build, it's probably going to eventually be higher than 16 (because you probably started with a 14 or a 16 already) -- which remember MFP suboptimal. MFP is also hideously expensive compared to medium armors -- or a plain vanila non-mithril chainshirt (adequate for the DEX 18 ranger), thereby saving a feat and 16,000gp.
-- For the same 16K devoted to heavy armor special materials, he could buy a +2 melee weapon, a +2 chainshirt and a +2 AmNA, and have better AC and two decent magical weapons (assuming he's already throwing a lot of cash at his bow).
So, * star, and "red" to that idea.
Is a greatsword wielding ranger going to be effective as a melee combatant
Any critter who is ful-BAB d10 and PAs with a two-hander is going to clobber the crap out of things. Maybe he'll be suboptimal versus the 600hp dragon, but anything else will be cut to ribbons -- and it beats standing around uselessly with your now in the back of a crooked corridor. Mix in one or two levels of barbarian, and you're first-caliber asskicker.
[q]Heavy Armor Proficiency ***: A good expenditure of a feat so you can wear Mithril Full Plate[/q]I seriously question the validity of this in the switch-hit build -- while DEX is (slightly) less important than STR in this build, it's probably going to eventually be higher than 16 (because you probably started with a 14 or a 16 already) -- which remember MFP suboptimal. MFP is also hideously expensive compared to medium armors -- or a plain vanila non-mithril chainshirt (adequate for the DEX 18 ranger), thereby saving a feat and 16,000gp.
-- For the same 16K devoted to heavy armor special materials, he could buy a +2 melee weapon, a +2 chainshirt and a +2 AmNA, and have better AC and two decent magical weapons (assuming he's already throwing a lot of cash at his bow).
I am not sure i agree with you, the switch hitter has mainly a high STR, so i guess that you might be right if you have high stats, for example i am playing a switch hitter now in Kingmaker but due to high rolled stats i started with a DEX of 18 so for that character yes the heavy armor proficiency isn't needed.
All that said i think that green is the right ranking for a switch hitter build.|
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-- For the same 16K devoted to heavy armor special materials, he could buy a +2 melee weapon, a +2 chainshirt and a +2 AmNA, and have better AC and two decent magical weapons (assuming he's already throwing a lot of cash at his bow).I am not sure i agree with you, the switch hitter has mainly a high STR, so i guess that you might be right if you have high stats, for example i am playing a switch hitter now in Kingmaker but due to high rolled stats i started with a DEX of 18 so for that character yes the heavy armor proficiency isn't needed.
All that said i think that green is the right ranking for a switch hitter build.
IMO the only way MFP is going to be better is if you rolled lousy stats in a home game where the DM is stingy with stat-boosting items (i.e., no belts or iouns laying around). (In PFS you'll retire at 12th long before you have a spare 16K; and if you did, you'd buy BoS first.)
IMO MFP is a "munchkin trap" that tempts a player into starting with crappy DEX and blowing all of his money on armor that touch-attacks go right through anyway. For the same cash, you could upgrade four or five of your +1 items to +2 (and not cry like a little girl if one of them gets sundered).
Full BAB is nice, but if a switch-hit ranger dumps his DEX and gorks attack-bonus even further with Deadly Shot and Rapid Shot, he's beginning to sacrifice more and more of his archery ability than he reasonably ought (in particular he's going to bawl every time a x3 arrow crit doesn't confirm). IMO melee is not something you should be deliberately courting in switch build, but it's a "surprise" that awaits enemies who force you into melee assuming the "archer" will then be nerfed.
(In 3.5 I had a wood-elf barb1/rangX/wildrunner that was all archery feats but also very deadly in melee with his "dusty" greatsword and PA. He started with less-than-max-possible DEX, but with bumps and Cat's Grace he eventually was at the limit for Celestial Armor. MFP? Uh, dwarf? You buy that.)
Best Pathfinder melee weapon for switcher? Adamantine Lucerne Hammer -- it's a d12 martial-prof bludgeon with reach, meaning it covers some of an archer's serious weaknesses: high-DR opponents who laugh off piercing/slashing. If you took Vital Strike, make it count with +d12s; and, with a bonus to sunder, make your opponent regret blowing his bales of cash on MFP.
Very often an archer-ranger has the usually unpleasant task of stepping into melee to offer himself up as a voluntary Meatwall in order to protect a spellcaster about to go down. Decent STR + two-hander + PA simply let's him dish out as-good or almost-as-good as he takes, versus no-PA and lame STR = worthless.
Looking over the UM spells for Ranger, and they get nothing great like they did in APG. The best spell, from an optimization standpoint, seems to be Fickle Winds.
Web Shelter could be useful if you're on your own, but other than that...I'm not seeing anything great from the spell list.
And the Trapper archetype doesn't mesh with optimisation, from what I can tell.
Just a repost from the Rogue Eidolon Fighter Thread:
"@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).
Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.
Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.
works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit."
I figure it may have more relevance here- Duelist Gloves do nothing for a Ranger-
Since TWF IS a Core Ranger Style, the glove of Storing might be worth adding to the guide- It has you doing just as much damage when you move/AOO as a 2hander and outdo him on a full attack.
Dotting. Also, hoping treantmonk find's the time/motivation to start working on an update to include the APG/UM stuff; although with UC coming out early in August, you may want to hold off until we can see what it does to the ranger.
Hi,
had a re-read of Treantmonk's guide. Looked at the archer combat style feats and thought 'why can't a Ranger be a viable Thower/TWF?'
Premise is the same. Take archery as your combat style for preq free feats and TWF with your regular. Be aware- this is still feat intensive and human is the only way I see getting it going fast enough.
Why Throw/TWF vs Bow/Sword: By TWF when you throw you are effectively getting rapidshot/manyshot from the extra iteratives and can apply TWRend once you get it. Well you can TWF Throw with Chackrams at 30ft range. Taking a penalty to throw to 60ft. This range handles 90% of ecounters. Concept is the same. You Throw/TWF and wait for foes to close, then quickdraw your blades and full attack.
Now- you'll make do with regular Chakrams for a fair few levels. An efficient quiver (re done as a bandolieer) for endless magic chakrams will sort it at high levels. This is easily do-able, like a arrow efficient quiver. They dissappear after hitting.
1-Favored Enemy 1, Track, Wild Empathy, Power Attack, H-TWF
2-Precise Shot
3-Endurance, Favored Terrain 1 (forest), Quickdraw
4-Hunter's Bond (Wolf)
5-Favored Enemy 2, Deadly Aim
6-Improved Precise Shot
7-Woodland Stride, ITWF
8-Swift Tracker, Favored Terrain 2 (underground)
9-Evasion, Doubleslice
10-Favored Enemy 3, Farshot
11-Quarry, Dazing Assault
12-Camouflage
13-3rd Favored Terrain (urban), Two Weapon Rend
14-Shot on the Run
15-Favored Enemy 4, Favored Defense
16-Improved Evasion
17-Hide in Plain Sight, Outflank
18-Favored Terrain 4 (mountains), Pinpoint Targeting
19-Improved Quarry, GTWF
20-Favored Enemy 5, Master Hunter
Main Advantages:
1. You only need a Efficient Quiver vs a Efficent Quiver and Bow
2. You don't need Rapidshot/Manyshot. You can afford Precise Shot/Improved Precise Shot earlier, negating cover issues. TWF suffers -2, just like Manyshot so that's a wash.
3. You can apply TWRend to a throwing full attack.
4. You can use Chakrams in melee, thus can threaten with them.
5. Build gets the important feats sorted by level 10. Throwing out to 60ft at -1 to attack or 90ft at -2.
6. No need to get composite bows as your STR increases.
How are you getting the endless magic chakrams?
My main concern with thrown weapons is how to get enough supply of properly enhanced weapons. With a bow it's easy since you can just use the enhancement bonus of the bow on normal arrows.
How are you getting the endless magic chakrams?
My main concern with thrown weapons is how to get enough supply of properly enhanced weapons. With a bow it's easy since you can just use the enhancement bonus of the bow on normal arrows.
Well 3 methods.
1. At low levels normal chackrams can be carried. They're light and cost bugger all. Given their size, it would not be unreasonable to carry 10 (enough for 2 full attacks- which in my experience is all you'll get in before somebody closes with you)
2.A regular efficient quiver could hold 60 'normal chackrams', Taking up space as an arrow. They're certainly closer in size (but not shape) to arrows than the javelins or bow sections of the quiver
3. Custom Magic Item rules. You'd have to make a custom Efficient Bandolier that fits 60 Chakrams (much like a efficient quiver) at same cost.
Then using the magic item cost table you could have it be able to cast BLESS on the thrown ammo or bestow an enhancement bonus upon the ammo as they're thrown (in which case it would probably cost the same as an equivilent magical bow- ammo would lose it's enchantment after striking the target)
I know none of these items exist in the Core Book but we have rules for Magic item creation to accomplish this.
EVEN if you're dm doesn't allow the efficent bandolieer to bestow enhancement bonuses, (I've had one that does, one that wouldn't) simply getting a few pearls and spamming instant enemy can add a +8 to +10 to hit and damage vs an instant enemy, if your focused your FE.
EVEN if you're dm doesn't allow the efficent bandolieer to bestow enhancement bonuses, (I've had one that does, one that wouldn't) simply getting a few pearls and spamming instant enemy can add a +8 to +10 to hit and damage vs an instant enemy, if your focused your FE.
I guess first off, let's not assume GM's will houserule in order to fit your optimized build idea. Any builds that require houserules need a BIG warning, because players who like the build idea and build the character, will be called for cheating when they assumed everything was legit. We don't want that. Optimization is about what can be done within the rules, not what can be done if we bend the rules.
The second point I would make is that your "pearl of power" solution isn't really a solution. It's an idea that would work equally with any weapon, so it doesn't really solve the problem (that the chakrams will have lower enhancement than arrows).
The third point I would make, is suggesting "spamming" of any item worth 16,000 gp makes me cringe. At 10th level, the earliest this strategy could work, you are looking at total character wealth estimated at 62,000. A single 3rd level pearl of power is over 1/4 of your total, and is not unlikely to be the most valuable item you own. "getting a few" will bankrupt you.
Don't get me wrong, pearls of power are very useful, especially with casters who have lower spell levels like the Ranger, but their cost elevates exponentially, so although "spamming" first level pearls of power is very achievable (and even a pretty good idea for some classes), you just don't "spam" higher level pearls.
So to sum up:
Interesting character idea, BIG warning to those reading is that this build will require house rules by your GM to stay relevant. If you are interested, talk to your GM first, and if they are willing to incorporate the appropriate house rules, then enjoy. If not, just understand that as levels increase the enchantment levels will fall behind which will hinder both your hit %, damage rolls, and ability to bypass DR (so basically, lots of damage reductions piled on top of each other)
The second point I would make is that your "pearl of power" solution isn't really a solution. It's an idea that would work equally with any weapon, so it doesn't really solve the problem (that the chakrams will have lower enhancement than arrows).
I agree on all your other points bar this.
Now, the DM I had who would allow said echanted sheath still had us do it via the item creation guideline.
Flavor said it was a endless bandolieer. Mush like the one Jarlaxle uses to throw endless daggers in the Drizzt novels.
The Chakrams hit the target with and enhancement bonus and then dissapate.
Obviously such an item won't fly in PFS rules.
By 'spam' instant enemy, I simply meant 1 pearl and another (much)later another when you can afford it. I pretty much use ALL 3rd level slots for that spell (you can get it on a wand, but the casting time is no longer swift- only use if stealth scouting. Not a problem for a ranger)
Yes, Instant Enemy works equally well with any weapon. MY point was that despite how good the guide is- it discourages TWF, which like it or not IS a Iconic theme for rangers (Legolas did it well before 'that' dark elf, when he wasn't shooting). Sadly I can't make BOW and TWF work. Too many feats needed. TWF/Throwing in this manner seems the 'optimal' way if you want to TWF and not suck at ranged.
The instant enemy solution can make throwing viable with mundane chackrams and would be legal for PFS play. Needs no houserules.
AND despite the chakrams having less enhancement magic than you sword, do the math on a full attack vs instant/favored enemy+ two weapon rend, using mundane chakrams. Then compare that to a move +single attack with your magic sword. Full attack wins. Wasn't your concept of a switch hitter to ranged full attack and make them come to you? (Great tactic!!)
This merely achieves a switch hit build for TWF's.
I agree on all your other points bar this.The second point I would make is that your "pearl of power" solution isn't really a solution. It's an idea that would work equally with any weapon, so it doesn't really solve the problem (that the chakrams will have lower enhancement than arrows).
Normally, you would follow this immediately with why you don't agree with this point.
Make a claim, then back it up.
Now, the DM I had who would allow...Obviously such an item won't fly in PFS rules.
Not sure why this is even in there. We're in agreement here, a GM could just houserule it. Whether a GM should houserule it really isn't something that is off topic. Optimization is what can be done within the rules.
By 'spam' instant enemy, I simply meant 1 pearl and another (much)later another when you can afford it.
You said to buy a "few" pearls to spam instant enemy. You can understand why I thought that meant more than one pearl that can recover that spell.
I pretty much use ALL 3rd level slots for that spell
Didn't refute the usefulness of the spell. You are preaching to the converted.
Yes, Instant Enemy works equally well with any weapon.
FINALLY You are now going to explain why you disagree with this point, as hinted at in the beginning of your post.
MY point was that despite how good the guide is- it discourages TWF
WTF??? That has nothing to do with the point you are supposed to be supporting.
Yes the guide discourages TWF. It's not like that's some secret, I'm pretty blunt in the guide. Correction: I'm REALLY blunt.
which like it or not IS a Iconic theme for rangers
Start a thread then on "Is TWF Iconic for Rangers". You do understand that has nothing to do with optimization though right?
(Legolas did it well before 'that' dark elf, when he wasn't shooting)
Name the page #. I'm a LOTR geek, and Legolas uses a knife (not plural) when not using his bow. Really.
You can't watch the movies and not read the books, then go on a fantasy RPG site and start talking about the books using the movies as your only reference, or this will happen.
Sadly I can't make BOW and TWF work. Too many feats needed. TWF/Throwing in this manner seems the 'optimal' way if you want to TWF and not suck at ranged.
"suck" is a relative term. If you are saying this build does not "suck" at ranged compared to other TWF Ranger builds, I'll give you that.
If you are saying this build does not "suck" at ranged compared to a Ranged combat Ranger with a Bow, as long as your GM brings in some houserules in your favor, I'll give you that too.
If you are saying this build does not "suck" at ranged combat compared to a Ranged combat ranger with a bow while playing by the rules, then we are in disagreement as to what "suck" means.
The instant enemy solution can make throwing viable with mundane chackrams and would be legal for PFS play. Needs no houserules.
It's still not a solution, for the reason I mentioned above which you at first said you disagree with, and then repeated as something you do agree with.
Nonmagical Chakram + FE is often going to be better than a magical arrow without FE, but that comparison isn't relevant because your strategy isn't exclusive to non-bow users.
I agree on all your other points bar this.The second point I would make is that your "pearl of power" solution isn't really a solution. It's an idea that would work equally with any weapon, so it doesn't really solve the problem (that the chakrams will have lower enhancement than arrows).
Normally, you would follow this immediately with why you don't agree with this point.
Make a claim, then back it up.
Now, the DM I had who would allow...Obviously such an item won't fly in PFS rules.Apologies, my reply was all over the place.
I disagree with you because, I feel Instant Enemy DOES present a RAW solution to getting decent DPR out of non-magic chakrams, even though as you point out it would be just as effective on anything else.
AS IN: Problem- 'my non-magic chakrams do poor damage.' Add Instant Enemy. 'Now my non-magic chakrams do good damage'
You said to buy a "few" pearls to spam instant enemy. You can understand why I thought that meant more than one pearl that can recover that spell.Absolutely. Sorry.
MY point was that despite how good the guide is- it discourages TWF.I'll rephrase. I feel that TWF is viable for an optimised Ranger, (or fighter or cavalier, but I digress) and hoped my build example could go aways to giving others (who like TWF but may be discouraged from doing so from the guide. Not to blow too much smoke your way, but your probably aware your guides are generally the first advice given whenever a new poster asks 'how do I build a good ranger?')
a method for creating a decent TWF/Thrower if they were so inclined.Didn't mean to come off as disrepectful, if I appeared that way.
I use the guides and reccomend them. I'd simply hoped that highlighting this method of taking archery combat style and applying it to a TWF/Thrower, could make TWF'ing seen as a viable method, perhaps worth noting in the guide, if you were so inclined as to re-avaluate it's worth.TWF is not as bad as alot of people make out. There are RAW methods to fix it's weaknesses:
1. When I move my damage sucks cause I can't full attack (Like the glove of storing trick I mentioned awhile back that allows TWF's to 2hand thier primary blade when they move2. If I take TWF that doesn't leave enough feats to be decent at ranged. (Take archery combat style and throw instead)
BTW- you got me on the LOTR call. I read alot of Fantasy, but put Tolkien down after I read Fellowship. Great plotline but too longwinded for me (he went on and on and on about the design of the bed Frodo wakes in after being stabbed.) in most sections.
My reference was based on the movie scene at helm's deep, where Legolas is TWF'ing with knives and rides a shield down the stairs.
Apologies. My book knowledge is much better on FR or Dragonlance.
Apologies, my reply was all over the place.
That's OK, it does make it harder to have a reasonable discussion though.
I disagree with you because, I feel Instant Enemy DOES present a RAW solution to getting decent DPR out of non-magic chakrams, even though as you point out it would be just as effective on anything else.
Just to be clear, we are in agreement that non-magical chakrams plus Favored enemy are inferior to arrows fired from a magic bow plus favored enemy right?
If so, then why am I going with TWF?
AS IN: Problem- 'my non-magic chakrams do poor damage.' Add Instant Enemy. 'Now my non-magic chakrams do good damage'
"good" and "poor" have no meaning if you aren't using a proper frame of reference.
Here's an analogy: You have a Str 16 Ranger. You are wondering if Longbow is an optimized option. I tell you that it isn't because a mighty composite longbow is going to do more damage.
Telling me that you can use FE to make the longbow more effective doesn't make it an optimized option. The mighty composite longbow is better because FE can apply to it too.
So here's my point, the Chakrams aren't an optimized option because bows are better. Adding a method to use FE that would apply to bows as well does nothing to refute my point. You may close the ratio of the difference in damage, but you aren't closing the amount of the difference in damage.
Absolutely. Sorry.
No problem, let's move on.
I'll rephrase. I feel that TWF is viable for an optimised Ranger, (or fighter or cavalier, but I digress) and hoped my build example could go aways to giving others (who like TWF but may be discouraged from doing so from the guide. Not to blow too much smoke your way, but your probably aware your guides are generally the first advice given whenever a new poster asks 'how do I build a good ranger?')
a method for creating a decent TWF/Thrower if they were so inclined.
Here's my situation. Your build is a good example of "optimizing a TWF Ranger for ranged and melee"
The problem is that TWF Rangers are not being compared to other TWF Rangers in this guide, they are being compared to other Ranger builds. Other Ranger builds use bows. This is not a comparison which is going to flatter the TWF Ranger.
If other posters get sent here because they've asked "how do I build a good Ranger" hopefully by "good" they meant optimized. If not, then they've been sent to the wrong place. I put (Optimization) in the titles of all these threads specifically to avoid misunderstanding.
I'm not telling people how to make an interesting Ranger, or saying that this is the only way to build a Ranger, or attempting to attack other Ranger builds. These guides represent my opinion on how to make an optimized Ranger. If you read the comments on this thread, you'll see that many don't share my opinions as well.
a method for creating a decent TWF/Thrower if they were so inclined.
This is a general guide to Rangers. If someone specifically asked for my opinion on optimizing a TWF/Thrower, my first response would be the warning that this isn't mechanically the best option.
Once that was clear, then we could discuss the best options within the guidelines set. That wouldn't be a build I would generally recommend for Rangers though, it would be recommendations within specific parameters.
If you envision your Ranger as a TWF that throws, then by all means make that character, and optimize it within those parameters, but understand that's not something I'll recommend to players who aren't interested in those parameters.
Didn't mean to come off as disrepectful, if I appeared that way.
It's not an issue of respect. I don't care about respect. We don't even know each other, neither of us has earned the other's respect in any meaningful way.
This is about why I point out flaws in a build posted here. I'm not trying to put someone down, nor am I trying to suggest that if they want to build a Ranger that uses TWF that they are wrong, or stupid, or anything like that. I'm doing it because this topic is a guide for optimization of Rangers, so I'm looking for the best mechanics for Rangers in general, not the best TWF Rangers.
If I see a TWF style Ranger build that I think compares to an Archery style Ranger (either the Archer or Switch hitter style) mechanically, then I'm going to have to change the guide. Therefore, I'm going to treat such build skeptically and pull them apart to see if they meet the criteria. I'm not trying to be mean or anything.
I use the guides and reccomend them.
Thank you
I'd simply hoped that highlighting this method of taking archery combat style and applying it to a TWF/Thrower, could make TWF'ing seen as a viable method, perhaps worth noting in
It really depends what you mean by "viable"
I would consider your build "viable" in that you could use the build to make a Ranger with TWF that could contribute meaningfully to combat.
I would not, however, consider your build "viable" in that it compares favorably to Rangers that use a bow. That's the opinion that would need to change for me to consider adding it to the guide, or recommending it as a general optimization strategy for Rangers.
Now granted, I do make some recommendations for TWF Rangers in the guide, but they are really just a footnote. Again, it's just working within the parameters if the player has their heart set on TWF. I consider the suggestions I made "viable" within the first example as well.
Just to be clear, we are in agreement that non-magical chakrams plus Favored enemy are inferior to arrows fired from a magic bow plus favored enemy right?If so, then why am I going with TWF?
Because a player wants MORE DPR when the enemy does close?
The reason I like TWF is because, (depending on class) they outdamage 2handers on thier melee full attacks.
This is true for any class that gets significant damage bonuses which benefits MORE attacks. Smite, Challenge, FE+6 or better, SA, Wpn Train+gloves+Gtr Wpn Spl.
For example- your switch hitter may do (just pulling numbers here)
100dpr at range and 120 by 2handing when the enemy closes.
A thrower/TWF is MORE melee focused. Doing 80 dpr at range, but making up the difference with 150dpr by TWF'ing when the enemy closes. He also has MORE chances to crit.
I can see at upper levels if you can IE fairly regularly how this build is doing more melee damage than the switch hitter build.
It looks to me that he is doing less damage with both melee and range from levels 1-9 unless he is fighting a FE (luck)
At level 10 the option opens to use IE once per day (if your Ranger has a Wis of 16 or higher), MAYBE twice if he can get his hand on a 3rd level pearl of power. The one/two enemies he uses this tactic on, he does more damage in melee than a 2H/Bow build, though still less at range. The rest of the time, he's doing less in both melee and range.
At level 11 now he can definitely use IE at least once per day. Here's the first point I'm seeing any measurable advantage here. Now, the Ranger can (against one enemy, once per day - maybe twice per day) have a higher melee damage output than the switch hitter (still lower at range).
Assuming 4 combats/day, some of which the Ranger will fight more than one enemy, this tactic still is not applying to most combats (though you could always get lucky and be fighting FE)
At levels 15+ you can now expect to use the IE tactic a minimum of twice per day. I would guesstimate 4 times per day if you focus. Now I'm seeing a balance, more damage in melee regularly, and less damage at range. A fair trade off.
Am I missing something? Seems to me that the advantage of using FE with TWF for more melee attacks isn't really going to pay off until very high levels unless you get lucky and fight lots of favored enemies.