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It has been ecleared up! Thanks for the input, folks.

And I am sure he'd explain further if asked. He's simply used to dealing with more seasoned players I suppose. That and I can't reach him at the moment, so I thought would throw it out here.

CR 17. Any race from the Core Rulebook or Advanced Race Guide, any class, Mythic or no.

That was actually his full response. Sorry. Does that make a difference?

So I asked a locl dm about what level and build points we had for a new character and was told CR 17. I'm kind of new in a way, so could anyone...translate that for me?

Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier.

Ok. I've got that, but...

Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank.

Now, is the possible + 1 skill rank for a level in one's favored class in addition to the previously mentioned level/Intelligence modifier skill ranks? If that IS the case, then I could feasibly pick Fighter at 1st level as my favored class, never pick another class except fighter, and I could still get that additional skill rank each time I gained a level of Fighter? Also, would that favored class + 1 skill rank apply at 1st level?

For example, say I've got a human first level Fighter with an Intelligence score of 12, and I pick Fighter at first level as my favored class, I could feasibly get 5 skill points per level, correct?

2 for Fighter base.
1 for Intelligence bonus
1 for Human bonus
1 for favored class bonus

Sorry for repeating myself. I'm getting back into the game after at least a two year absence and I just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

From the Core Rulebook...

"Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels
thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose
to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has
already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus
feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot
be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat,
prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change
one feat at any given level and must choose whether or
not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level."

So by my reading this means that a fighter can choose to replace a previously learned BONUS feat in exchange for a bonus feat being gained at levels 4, 8, 12 and so on. Now the fighter doesn't replace and old bonus feat AND learn a new one for that level as well, correct?

So if I was to take the Two-Wepon Fighter in the APG and not restrict myself to simply the bonus fighter feats but instead every feat sly was available, what would you suggest taking for feats?

Also, only using the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide.

Human Fighter. Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8. Without using the Two-Handed Fighter from the APG, and ONLY using the fighter's bonus feats (so 12 total), what's the best feat array you can come up with for a fighter fighter using two-handed weapons?

@Zark: As far as the Charisma goes, I'm playing this guy more or less as one step out of the Orc tribe that raised him, and not much more charismatic than a beast himself. I'll check with my GM on Manyshot.

@ Mysterious Stranger: Ah! That's what it was. I didn't know where you had put the +2 so I didn't include that in my figuring. As far as your final statement aboux Dexterity, if I didn't have a Dexterity booting item though, I would still have that bonus. Even if I did, anything above a +1 item would be useless much the same, correct?

@Father Dale: So what do you think would be an acceptable WIsdom score? You comment about Intelligence is exactly the reason I took a 12! :) We're starting at 3rd, so the timing of my choosing Power Attack and Quickdraw doesn't really matter. That's just the order I wrote them in. I haven't looked at the Spirit Ranger, but that does sound interesting. Primary melee weapon? Most likely either Greataxe (for flavor) or Falchion (for the crits). Honestly, I hadn't thought about carrying a shield/one hander. Thanks for pointing that out. Remember, Intimidation is a social skill! :)

@Mysterious Stranger: The order of those first three Feat choices isn't really relevant with us actually starting at 3rd level, so my selections at this point are basically simultaaneous. The Quickdraw would enable me to ready my melee weapon as a free action once enemies close, the basic intent of a switch hitter.

Your ability scores suggest concentrating on Strength much like an earlier post, and I see both of your points. However, unless I've added my numbers wrong, yours is a 31 point build.

I've pretty much settled on leaving the spell casting ability intact for the reasons listed above.

The wolf is most definitely my choice for an animal companion. Iconic on it's own, and especially so with a half-orc.

@Kenderkin: In regards to Precise Strike, I may look into that for a later feat selection once the group gets going and I can plan it out with one of our melee players.

@Deadmanwalking: So you're suggesting starting out with something more like Strength: 18, Dexterity: 14, Constitution: 15, Intelligence: 12, Wisdom: 14, Charisma: 7, boosting Constitution at 4th and then putting the rest into Strength? (I was going to raise Dexterity at 4, Constitution at 8, Wisdom at 12 [still keeping up with spell access], and Strength at 16 and 20.).

I'm looking at playing a half-orc switch hitter ranger (as per Treantmonk's Guide). I realize a human is perhaps the optimal race for this build, but I simply have a love of half-orcs.

25pt build, starting at 3rd level

Strength 18 (includes +2)
Dexterity 15
Constitution 15
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 13
Charisma 7

Feats (starting at 3rd, so order for 1 & 3 don't really matter)
1 - Quickdraw
2 (bonus) - Rapid Shot
3 - Power Attack

Opinions? Suggestions? Everything else will pretty well follow Treantmonk's guide. I was looking at maybe taking the Skirmisher from the APG, but I've never played a caster before, and figured that even what little spell ability a ranger has could be fun.

First and foremost, thank you Treantmonk for the excellent work on the guide.

I'm looking at playing a half-orc switch hitter ranger. I realize a human is perhaps the optimal race for this build, but I simply have a love of half-orcs.

25pt build, starting at 3rd level

Strength 18 (includes +2)
Dexterity 15
Constitution 15
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 13
Charisma 7

1 - Quickdraw
2 (bonus) - Rapid Shot
3 - Power Attack

Opinions? Suggestions? Everything else will pretty well follow the guide. I was possibly going to take the Skirmisher, but I've never played a caster before, and figured that even what little spell ability a ranger has could be fun.

Anyone have an opinion on the Oracle? FOr some reason, I'm finding myself strangely drawn to it...

Definitely best as in easiest to learn how to play.

I've noticed that almost every cleric build I've seen on these messageboards has a Charisma of 14. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have one as high as possible for channeling?

Our party make-up so far: rogue, paladin, urban ranger. There is also SUPPoSED to be a goblin wizard/cleric, but I'm not sure how steady their attendance may be.

I'd really like to go ahead and take the plunge and play a full on caster, but do you think one of the "hybrid" casters (ranger...paladin...inquisitor...etc come to mind) first? Seems like if I'm going to play a caster, it would be easier/better to go ahead and go full caster and not have to worry about feats, etc. to try to keep my melee ability up. Seems simpler that way.

I would have other players who could help me out with spell selection, yes.

As the thread names implies, I'd like to get opinions on what everyone thinks is the best caster class for a first time caster player to take? All I've ever really played are the melee classes, and I just want to do something new.

25 point build. He'll either be human or half-orc, so there's the + 2 to deal with. I would very much appreciate suggestions on how to place the stats for both a melee build and a caster build. I think I MAY have it down ok for a caster build...

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 18 (includes the +2 racial)
Cha 15

If you think this needs tweaking for a caster cleric, please let me know, and how you'd suggest going about it. Melee builds...I just can't make up my mind how to place them for an effective melee cleric. Any help you could give me will be very much appreciated. Only one other time have I played a character that wasn't a fighter or barbarian (All D&D. I'm new to Pathfinder). I just felt it was time to branch out a bit and I want to get it right. I'd ask for help with the feats as well, but my GM has his own home brew pantheon of gods and has yet to tell me what their domains are (I expect that to be done tomorrow when we actually get together). Thanks in advance!

"Let's put it this way- if you could take a feat that would have you casting as a PC a character level higher would you take it?"

Isn't that what the Magical Knack trait does?

Ah! I see that now! Still doesn't seem like a bad trade,

Ok folks. Looking at the Holy Vindicator prestige class, and I see this...

"At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the
prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased effective level of spellcasting."


"The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability."

So if I am a cleric and I take ONE level of Holy Vindicator, am I really losing a whole lot? As far as I can tell, the only things I may be losing are some granted domain powers that would require 20 levels of cleric, and even that would depend on which domain I took.

Looking at the Holy Vindicator now. Looks like I'd be a LOT better off dipping into a single level of that than I would taking a single level of fighter.

Starting to lean towards the human cleric now. First, there's the bonus feat...'Nuff said. Then of course the Skilled racial trait and/or the Favored Class bonus could help me with skill points and allow me to lover Intelligence to apply the point to other things. With a more support oriented cleric, I'd use that last set of ability scores I posted...

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 (includes racial modifier)
Cha 15

Put one ability increase into Charisma and the other four into Wisdom.

Any other suggestons on this part? Also, anyone have any suggestions for feats?

Thanks! Keep the suggestions/opinions coming!

Ok, so maybe for the more support oriented cleric...

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 (includes racial modifier)
Cha 15

Put one ability increase into Charisma and the other four into Wisdom.

The level of fighter isn't a deal breaker for me I suppose. The weapons proficiencies...I can do without. I would like to have Heavy Armor Proficiency, but I guess I can do that by actually taking the feat, and if I go human, not as big of a deal.

The one definite constant regardless of how I go with him is a full on hatred of undead in all their forms.

Not arguing here, but simply offering my explanations.

He wouldn't fall behined the curve as far as gaining access to the higher level spells. With the starting Wisdom of 15, he'd be able to cast everything up to 5th level spells. By the time he got to 11th level and had access to 6th level spells, he's had two ability increases, taking his Wisdom to 17, giving him acess to up to 7th level spells. Following this same pattern of putting all his ability increases into Wisdom, he stays ahead of the spell access curve. He DOES fall behind a bit in bonus spells per level, and ultimately without 20 full levels of cleric misses out on two slots to his spell total, and some of the other assorted increases that come with that final level.

I see the character mostly as a support character, primarily with spells. I know he can't do everything, but I also don't want him to take a full fledged hit to anything he does, so taking an ability below 10 is not something I want to do.

Our GM uses a home brewed list of deities. The closest Pathfinder versions of the gods I'm considering are Torag, Desna, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma. Wide variation there I know, but still deciding. Personality...I suppose that would largely be influenced by which god I decide on, his personality more or less fitting the god.

Healer or rogue maybe?

He's going to be either a human, half-elf or a half-orc, adding the +2 ability score bonus to Wisdom [already figured in] regardless. 25 point build, starting at 2nd level.

Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 15 (all ability increases will be pumped into this)
Charisma 14

I was likely going to start him out with a level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies and the feats (especially with a human) and then going straight cleric from there. Would this be a wise choice? I'm new to clerics so would not getting that 20th level of cleric be a big loss overall?

Then there's the weakness that they ALL have. They're monsters. Just being in the vicinity of the right town could spell trouble for them.

Honestly, except for perhaps the drow and drow noble, I don't see a big jump in balance between those races I previously listed and the "core" races. Almost all of them have some sort of darwback/weakness that helps offset any sort of power spike, and the ones that don't REALLY aren't all that much more than your standard races.

Looked the books over since then, and I THINK I have them all. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or if I left something off the list...

Drow (including Drow Noble)

And of course I realize that GM permission would be required to play one of these monsters regardless. Hell, GM permission is required to play anything actually.

Perhaps I could have worded my question better. Has anyone already compiled a list of monsters from the Bestiary books that do not have racial hit dice and specifically have a section detailing them as player characters?

...if this is already somewhere out there, why not ask? Does anyone know of a compiled list of monsters with no hit dice (and therefore supposedly ok for pc's) out there?

I haven't seen anyone pick up on this quote from the op...

"In addition he takes a -2 to charisma b/c he is a half orc."

So you obviously have a house rule that gives this penalty to a half-orc (It's not in the Core Rulebook), and yet tou're kind of complaining about a half-orc taking a low Charisma? I don't know, maybe...don't give them this hit to their Charisma right off the bat?

Why the Intelligence boost? Not arguing, just wondering your reasoning.

Thanks for the advice so far, folks! As silly as it may seem, what I'm wanting to do is strictly use the fighter bonus feats for his combat skill and use the standard feat selections for the more...mundane things, like skill bonuses...saving throw bonuses...etc. Seems kind of silly and I know I will be behind the curve in some respects with combat, but I just wanted to do something a little different and make this fighter more than just "Hulk smash!". Keep 'em comin'! :)

Also, he is a half-orc (+2 was put towards his strength, 25 point build). Eventually, I'll be adding his ability increases until he'd have (at lvl 20) Str: 22, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 10.

Starting with the fighter class presented in the Core Rulebook and using only the bonus fighter feats (not using the standard lvl 1,3,5, etc. ones that everyone gets) could you suggest some builds for both a two-handed weapon fighter and a sword and board fighter? Starting stats are as follows: Str: 19, Dex: 13, Con: 15, Int: 10, Wis: 12, Cha: 10.

I was thinking that a good comparison to what I see him as is Jake Busey's character Ace Levy in Starship Troopers. Far from the Casper Van Diem looks, but overall not a bad guy.

Getting ready to play a half-orc character. Charisma-wise, I'm playing him as a generally friendly person. Not someone who would inspire you enough that he could lead you through the gates of Hell or anything like that, but someone you probably wouldn't mind having a beer and making friends with. Number-wise, somewhere in the 10-11 range, so not really special, but not a pariah either. Now that's all related to his personality. Then there's his looks... I'm going to be taking the Beastial trait from the Advanced Player’s Guide (p. 19). Should that have enough of an effect on his Charisma to knock him below that 10-11 range? I know there's no rule covering it, but since the book definition of Charisma mentions a character's appearance, I thought I'd ask for opinions.

If you have a min/max player in the group, he's going to have one or more dump stats, period. His roleplay should reflect this, as should his combat role. The mental stats are obvious. If the min/max bottoms out charisma like so many seem to do, then he shouldn't be good in social situations no matter how well the player could potentially roleplay. If a character bottoms out strength, he shouldn't be able to hit as hard. If they bottom out, dex, the shouldn't be able to hit as skillfully. Power gamers shouldn't be rewarded in rp situations.

There is plenty of leeway in how to make one of a class different from another. Feats. Alternate class types aside from the core ones. Certain classes are going to be able to do certain things better than other classes as well. A player has plenty of choices to find a fit for what he wants to play.

I don't think that orcs would be very tolerant of homosexuality at all. Male orc + female mate = offspring = more offspring = more status, power and prestige. I would think that in a same sex relationship between two male orcs that the less dominant of the pairing would be seen as weak anyway, perhaps even seen a "property", the same way female orcs are seen, and the more dominant male, since his sex with his partner wouldn't produce offspring, would be seen as dishonoring his people since he wasn't producing more warriors or breeding stock. And before everyone starts flaming me, please remember that these are NOT my opinions, but the way I see orcs thinking!

This sounds far too much like Book of Ten Swords for my comfort...

Funny thing is, there are many of us who don't see the issue here. There was actually a time when you'd sit at a gaming table and not see a single laptop plugged in. Well...because there WEREN'T any laptops, but... Buy from your local brick and mortar store if you have one in your area. These are the people who gave this hobby we enjoy life to begin with AND it's money into your local economy. Paizo will make their money too. Having a PDF file of a book is a luxury. For those who just HAVE to have one, perhaps some sort of one use only unique redmption code provided by Paizo that the retailer gives you when you purchase the actual book. I'm not big on the idea of the PDF'S anyway. I have to wonder how much money has been lost to Paizo AND local hobby shops because people have simply made copies for their friends.

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