The link is found here.
It was linked in the OP, but was hard to see within the light blue font :p
Ah ha, thanks, found it under Additional Rules in the PRD.
Any situation can be made impossible, designed to force something to fail.
I can hide behind bushes during the day.I can sneak past a doorway without needing shadows/cover.
I can sneak past a dog with a building between us.
In the world I live in, there do not exist creatures who just detect everyone within X feet of themselves.
I am not very sneaky, but somehow I am sneakier than Jack B. Nimble. This is designed to fail in ways that should succeed in the world where you and I keep our dice.
The rules as written work. Examples have been provided by myself and others.
My opinion is that you're greatly overcomplicating things.
The rogues total modifier is 22. The dogs is 8, 16 within scent range. The only other thing to be included would be a +1 per 10 feet of distance from the dog for the rogue, which is more good news for the rogue. It is completely within the rogue's ability to sneak past the sleeping dog. If the dog is awake it becomes 12 for the rogue and still 8 or 16 for the dog. My advice to the rogue is to stay downwind and 15' away to keep the dog from using scent. 12 vs 16 is tough, but possible. The 12 vs 6 is much more manageable, especially when you figure in the +1 per 10 feet for the rogue.
|
Knowing that Farmer John could notice you and shoot you, or his dog smell you and maul you constitutes an immediate danger in my book. As a matter of fact, I cannot off the top my head think of a time I'd ever let a player take 10 on a stealth check. Though I also dislike the concept of taking 10 (and 20 for that matter) and so I admit that I may be interpreting that in a bias manner. YMMV.First, the statement was made in regards to the animals and the farmer taking 10 on their Perception checks, not Jack taking 10 on his Stealth check.
Second, that is still completely unrelated to Opposed Tests. You can take 10 on Opposed Tests, as a rule. You're right that you probably can't take 10 on a Stealth check to set the DC for the crossbow-toting farmer to spot you trying to steal his chickens, but the farmer is still allowed to take 10 on his Perception test against the DC your Stealth check set.
Actually, you're totally correct that taking 10 does not consume more time... I just recalled it was our own houserule implemented when 3.0 came out (based on the fact that people tried to use it all the time) -- my bad!
Still, I'd argue that any "stressful" situation prevents from taking 10, and most opposed checks usually count as something which involves stress and/or danger. In any case, if I allowed 'taking 10' for a passive Perception check (after all, the farmer is not aware that Jack is out there), it would mean he'd keep concentrating the whole time on using Perception.
Not a very good example because
A lot of people use stealth wrong and the stealth rules are far from perfect but strangely most of the stuff you pointed out isn't stuff that bothers me.
As mentioned before, sneaking through the yard in broad daylight to steal chickens is about the dumbest plan ever invented. But let's be realistic here.
This may be a small town. Jack may live in this small town, and as such, doesn't want to draw too much attention to himself, nor does he want to beggar farmer Brown or more to the point make him suspicious. Going to the farm at night is a high risk proposition, since it means going through the woods at night, past the graveyard at night, and all sorts of other hazards at night that are just not worth it for a single chicken.
But Jack is a lucky rogue, so he puts his thiefly skills to bear on the problem. He's done a Diplomacy check at the pub to gather information on Farmer Brown's daily routine, mostly just getting conversations started until the farmer, who always stops by for a pint on market day, mentions that each day is pretty much the same: He goes out to milk the cows and let them out into the pasture, his daughter Lizzy puts the chickens out to scratch in the back garden then goes in to fix breakfast, then he goes out to sit on the front porch and tinker with his crossbow to guard her virtue along with Woof, his faithful old dog, who usually sleeps during the day since he keeps watch over the whole farm when they're asleep.
Jack has also used a bit of Diplomacy to find out one other interesting and salient fact: Someone in town has died and the funeral procession is going to be going by right in front of Farmer Brown's farm around noon.
Jack goes out that morning, walking through the woods and filling his pockets with a few nuts and berries. He doesn't have much Survival, but he's not looking for enough to feed himself, so it doesn't matter. He goes down a little further than the farm, then cuts across the road quickly to get to the cornfield, and sneaks along there as mentioned before. As scheduled, Farmer Brown has let the cows out, Lizzy has put the chickens out, and Woof is on the porch sunning himself. However, Lizzy in the kitchen has a good view of the back garden, so there's not much point in trying to sneak into that and catch a live chicken, especially since Handle Animal is not a class skill for Jack and he's a city boy and untrained.
However, at noon, the funeral procession goes by. Woof erupts into thunderous barking, guarding his farm from these strange dour people walking slowly past with a large box. Farmer Brown goes to calm Woof down and even Lizzie goes around the front of the farm to see what all the commotion is about. At this point, Jack reaches over the low fence at the back of the kitchen garden and throws a handful of nuts and berries. This doesn't require a Handle Animal check: Chickens know food when they see it, and they happily come after the free feed. He tosses a bit more and then attempts to grab one.
Now, either he succeeds or he fails. There are various ways this can go, most of which end up with him stealing a chicken, but a possibility of things going fabulously wrong, the rooster crowing in alarm and slashing him with his spurs, Jack failing his untrained Handle Animal check and Grappling the chicken by the foot instead of the neck, and Lizzie, Farmer Brown and Woof coming around to catch him red-handed.
What then? Jack uses Diplomacy to look as plaintive and miserable and forlorn as possible, with a large circumstance bonus from being slashed by an angry rooster and scratched by a frantic chicken. He let's go of the chicken and puts his hands up as Farmer Brown trains the crossbow on him and starts ranting about "human varmints" having succeeded in his Sense Motive versus Jack's big sad-eyed waifish Diplomacy. However, Lizzie has not, due in part to Jack's circumstance bonus from being a handsome young man and her being a farmer's daughter who doesn't get out much: "Pa! You're not going to kill a man over a durned chicken! Ain't enough people died today?" Lizzie then has a Diplomacy contest with her father, and Jack uses his Aid Another to help Lizzie plead for his life.
Lizzie persuades her father, in part because killing Jack would mean a dead body to explain to the law, and marching him down to town would either mean having him hanged--which a chicken is not worth--or doing manual labor for the village council, which Farmer Brown frankly despises since they don't do anything he can see except take taxes and give nothing back. However, there's a third option of keeping this all between them and taking it out of Jack in the form of farm labor.
Jack likely sucks at farm labor--he really needs to learn Handle Animal--but a healthy young man can still do a lot of odd jobs, and the chicken that was injured in the botched Handle Animal check was probably an old stewing hen anyway, so a couple days later, Jack does get that chicken dinner, and a better one than he could have fixed himself.
Jack's happy. At least until Lizzie tells him to go bury the chicken bones in the corner of the cemetery so the chicken can come back....
stuff
You can't take 10 when in immediate danger or distracted. Sleeping = distracted, about to be kidnapped = immediate danger. As to the cover thing, if the farmer is looking the other way he can't see you, so you need to role play the situation and wait for an opportunity to move from one hiding spot to another.. he may still hear you, but probably not. If he's looking right at you when you move he will definately see you.
Rogue talent fast stealth, you can move at your normal speed and stealth with no penalty.
Of course a dog is going to get you unless you take precautions. It's a dog.. that's what they do. They don't even need to spot you they can just follow your scent and track you down that way. This is IMO very realistic.
Alternative theory:
Jack walks into the coop and the farmer looses an arrow. He probably misses the level 5 rogue. The farmer uses his move action to reload.
Jack grabs a chicken and snaps its neck.
Farmer brown runs up to the coop and looses an arrow, and probably misses(he probably has a -4 from chickens attacking Jack causing him to effectively be shooting into melee).
Jack walks out and runs into the corn with the dead chicken, provoking an attack of opportunity from the farmer that hits for 2 damage. The farmer looses one more arrow and hits for another 4 points of damage.
Jack eats a chicken and is almost completely healed overnight.
This doesn't prove anything about stealth, but neither does a scenario specifically geared towards nerfing stealth....
I can hide behind bushes during the day.
I can sneak past a doorway without needing shadows/cover.
I can sneak past a dog with a building between us.
In the world I live in, there do not exist creatures who just detect everyone within X feet of themselves.
I am not very sneaky, but somehow I am sneakier than Jack B. Nimble. This is designed to fail in ways that should succeed in the world where you and I keep our dice.
The answer is obvious, MiB is a ninja. You ruled that the hedge gives partial concealment, that bit is yours, not in the rules.
I'll just have to disagree with you on the bit about dodging between hedges in broad daylight. Likewise I disagree on the alertness of sleeping dogs. (dogs are highly sought after for their alertness... there is a reason)
Also, how many chickens have you stolen? If you were stealing ours you need to open the door to the henhouse which would wake the whole flock.
You can't take 10 when in immediate danger or distracted. Sleeping = distracted, about to be kidnapped = immediate danger.
But what if the chicken took improved sleep or combat sleeper as a bonus feat?
But what if the chicken took improved sleep or combat sleeper as a bonus feat?
You can't take 10 when in immediate danger or distracted. Sleeping = distracted, about to be kidnapped = immediate danger.
Then you shoot the GM for making up stupid animal tricks. ;)
Farmer brown runs up to the coop and looses an arrow, and probably misses(he probably has a -4 from chickens attacking Jack causing him to effectively be shooting into melee).
Have you ever met a chicken? The animals are notoriously stupid (and delicious). I wouldn't imagine anything beyond a rowdy rooster(which Farmer John isn't likely to have many of) or a chicken being actively accosted would be attacking our dear rogue.
It also presents the somewhat bizarre idea that birds that must be what, Tiny? somehow force a sizable penalty. Rules quirk, I guess.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I know I've said this before, and I apologize if I'm repeating something someone else said, but when the chicken's are closed, you're not only in total concealment to it, but it is very dark for the chicken. Therefore, you can make stealth checks. Because it's dark. That said... yeah, if it says you need cover, not concealment to make stealth checks, that's kind of... bler.
My advice, unfortunately, since we can't rewind time, convince Paizo and/or WotC to correct this and resend their books to the printers, is to not play RAW in places where the RAW rules don't make sense in a way that disrupts the simulation.
Lobbying to have concealment allow stealth checks in later printings or in the errata is also fine.
But what if the chicken took improved sleep or combat sleeper as a bonus feat?
You can't take 10 when in immediate danger or distracted. Sleeping = distracted, about to be kidnapped = immediate danger.
*facepalm* 1d4+10... don't mess w/ me :)
If you want to stealth past a dog their Scent ability gives them a +8 bonus to detect you. So the dog would have +16 to spot person trying to stealth past them. Your rogue has a +12 stealth vs the dog's +16 perception. It's hard but you could get lucky. At level 5 if stealth was your thing you could have skill the focus Stealth and Stealthy feats. Assuming you're Half-Elf you could start with that and grab Stealthy as your 1st level feat. So you could have +17 Stealth at 5th level. Add a cloak of Eleven Kind for 2500 GP would be reasonable to give you another +5 getting you up to +22 vs a perception check of +16. So getting past the dog with cover available would be possible if stealth was you specialty.
|
Glad my thief is fine-sized, has perfect flight, greater invisibility, the Darkstalker feat, and Silence as a supernatural ability so he doesn't have to worry about any of that.
Most likely your very little thief has no interest in stealing such big chickens anyway so its a bit of a moot point. Eggs on the other hand...
If you want to stealth past a dog their Scent ability gives them a +8 bonus to detect you. So the dog would have +16 to spot person trying to stealth past them. Your rogue has a +12 stealth vs the dog's +16 perception. It's hard but you could get lucky. At level 5 if stealth was your thing you could have skill the focus Stealth and Stealthy feats. Assuming you're Half-Elf you could start with that and grab Stealthy as your 1st level feat. So you could have +17 Stealth at 5th level. Add a cloak of Eleven Kind for 2500 GP would be reasonable to give you another +5 getting you up to +22 vs a perception check of +16. So getting past the dog with cover available would be possible if stealth was you specialty.
Or take skill focus and stealthy as your level 1 and 3 feats, and be a halfling or a gnome. Small size gives you +4 to stealth, for a total of +26. If the dog takes 10, he gets 26 and he doesn't notice you even on a natural 1.
Glad my thief is fine-sized, has perfect flight, greater invisibility, the Darkstalker feat, and Silence as a supernatural ability so he doesn't have to worry about any of that.Most likely your very little thief has no interest in stealing such big chickens anyway so its a bit of a moot point. Eggs on the other hand...
Don't be daft. It's obvious she's looking for a mount.
Glad my thief is fine-sized, has perfect flight, greater invisibility, the Darkstalker feat, and Silence as a supernatural ability so he doesn't have to worry about any of that.
He does however have to worry about the hen who feels something crawl under her to steal an egg, and since it's so silent and stealthy, she thinks it's a snake. She strikes hard, grasping it behind the head with her beak and grappling it, shaking hard until the neck finally snaps or she thinks it's stunned. The other chickens, sensing the shaking and vibrations if not the noise, join the hen in a mob until they peck the horrible snaky intruder to death. Then they shred it and eat it.
|
and at no point has anyone considered the effects of distance on stealth...
How far is Jack from the farmer, dog, chicken? +1 per 10 ft.
For arguments sake lets assume jack is 60 ft from the farmhouse and 40 ft from the coop (and dog)
Well, first he needs to find a good hiding place ...
Much of the terrain that actually allows you to use Stealth also cuts your movement in half. It's cut in half again to keep from suffering a -5 penalty to your Stealth skill. Even 30' movers will be moving 7.5' a round, which is rounded down to 5'.
Correct - It also provides a -2 penalty to stealth due to obstructions.
Eventually, Jack makes it to the edge ...
It's outdoors with the sun shining, ... Our master rogue was spotted by a take 10.
This is where you start to go wrong;
Firstly the hedges provide cover or even total cover...Hedgerows: Common in moors, hedgerows are tangles of stones, soil, and thorny bushes. Narrow hedgerows function as low walls, and it takes 3 squares of movement to cross them. Wide hedgerows are more than 5 feet tall and take up entire squares. They provide total cover, just as a wall does. It takes 4 squares of movement to move through a square with a wide hedgerow; creatures that succeed on a DC 10 Climb check need only 2 squares of movement to move through the square.
Second, assuming only cover and not total cover jack can still use stealth in bright light (-2 condition) +5 because the farmer is distracted (not +3 as you quote) making the DC to spot the rogue equal to his stealth check +3 (plus +1 per 10 ft distance the rogue is from the house). Assuming a take 10 thats a DC of 31.
You quote you cant use concealment in bright light from the vision and light section of the rules, however this is a very badly worded paragraph and I personally believe that concealment from terrain (such as light undergrowth) or smoke would allow stealth checks.
Hunger is a powerful motivator, ...
Oops...
The DC to notice Jacks movement is his stealth check +9 just like before; Stealth is a part of movement and you use the creatures current condition to determine results. However, If jack does not make it to a new source of cover on the next round, the farmer will gain a second perception check against a base DC of 0, +5 for distraction, -2 for favorable condition (bright light) +6 for distance total DC 9, taking a 10 the farmer will easily notice him.
As a side note I dont like the approach implicated by the Complete Adventurer ruling. In the SRD it states that you cannot use stealth while being observed yet since the farmer is not aware of jack and he is distracted he may move freely from cover to cover without any worry of being spotted. The complete adventurer ruling is confusing and would kind of assume you where being observed (or at the least traveling through an area being watched over).
Jack makes his way back to the edge of the cornfield and, what luck! ...
Actually, a sleeping chicken should spot him. ...
Don't be daft! a sleeping chicken cannot spot, it can however, still hear...
The DC to hear someone walking is 10, the chicken is asleep so the DC is now 20. since he would have to be more than 5 ft away to be moving well assume at the start of jacks turn he was 10ft away from the chicken (-1) meaning the chicken would need a natural 20 to hear the rogue. we could argue that jacks stealth would still apply here since it now implies both hide and move silently which further increases the DC.He creeps forward to grab it and...
Scent, as well as more-powerful abilities ...
Scent is an (Ex) ability and although the rules dont state it a DM should be well in their rights to rule that a sleeping creature cannot use any (Ex) ability.
Having said that I would still allow the dog a chance to detect the passing rogue with a bonus to his perception from scent equal to that granted to survival (in the case of the dog +4).
|
The dog just wins if Scent isn't defeated. He gets take 10 +8 Perception +8 Scent -10 sleeping against a DC of 0 to "Notice a visible creature". Alternately, there is no DC to detect a creature with Scent, and "The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell" so Jack is just screwed.
CAN detect; it must make a perception check, with a +8 bonus to do so. Nothing in the rules says this is automatically successful.
The DC to notice a creature using Stealth is their stealth check plus applicable modifiers. +10 if you're asleep. +1/10' of distance, etc.
To put a fine point on it: Where are the rules separating hearing Perception checks from visual ones?
No GM with two brain cells is going to let the chicken roll Perception against the DC 0 Spot target on the rogue there. That's silly. However, the rules do a bad job of separating rules for seeing from rules for hearing from rules for sensing in other ways and it leads to confusion like "You can't Perceive someone when you're asleep" (as you're seeing all through this thread, and which is plainly false) or "I guess the rules mean for you to spot people while sleeping?"
Here's a poser for you. Are you meant to be able to spot people who aren't sneaking while you're asleep? Why or why not?
I think it's fairly clear the rules expect the GM to adjudicate precisely which sense or combination of senses the perception roll is using. Most of the examples listed on the Perception DC table refer to a specific sense. The "favorable" and "unfavorable" conditions specifically refer to perception checks DCs as "involving" specific senses (hearing, sight, and scent are ALL listed, also demonstrating that scent is not an automatic win vs. stealth, and it only has limited range anyway).
The bit about not being able to stealth in bright light is a little overly specific, yeah. You're absolutely right. It's a terrible rule that breaks logic. RAW you can't even try to use stealth to get past a blind person in bright light, but could if you were invisible. So maybe that description should be fixed in errata to indicate a very severe DC penalty or something instead. Or just change it to say that vision-based perception checks will always succeed against stealth attempts in bright light unless cover, concealment, or invisibility is used. Whatever, any GM that follows that too literally fails your 2 brain cell test.
Regarding the rules that don't pertain specifically to bright light, though, they're fine. The book shouldn't have to say "the GM figures out what sense is being used" because, well, the GM should figure that out.
"The GM is not a robot." --Monte Cook
He mentioned that in a thread complaining that "line of sight" wasn't defined, so it seems kind of relevant. I don't want to derail this, since that thread was a little crazy, but it seems like the game's developers felt that people could adjudicate senses using the most relevant one of all, that common one.
As for your "poser" for us, no, you're not meant to "spot" people while you're asleep, because your eyes are closed and "spot" implies a vision sense. Maybe hear, maybe smell, maybe feel them shaking the ground if they had tremorsense, but not "spot."
And given your comment about GMs with 2 (or more...you didn't specifically say that, but I'll go ahead and assume you include them as well) brain cells...I think you realized that. You just don't like that it's not spelled out.
Edit: Fixed plurality agreement (removed an "s")
and at no point has anyone considered the effects of distance on stealth...
How far is Jack from the farmer, dog, chicken? +1 per 10 ft.
Good point.
Oh, and for everyone complaining that the scenario is dumb because the rogue is there during the day...it's only dumb if the rogue doesn't at least add up every favorable bonus. Sometimes you have to steal that chicken during the day. Maybe the farmer releases the hounds at night and the rogue would have to sneak past 50 dogs or something. That'd be crazier than sneaking during the day.
That +1/10 feet helps a lot. So too would +Stealth magic items, camouflage, clever roleplaying to possibly garner "favorable circumstances" bonuses, whatever.
My take- and this is a houserule though it harkens back to the Beta somewhat- is that you get a perception check for each sense that applies in a given situation.
You don't get sound-based checks unless the subject is moving.
You don't get sight-based checks if they have full cover (or if you're distracted- DM adjudication)
You don't get tactile checks unless you're being touched or have tremmorsense; you don't get scent-based checks unless the target is within a certain range (the scent ability increases this range); and you basically never get taste-based checks.
There are automatic successes sometimes too- a creature with scent might automatically succeed if you stink and don't do anything about it (though I see no reason why the Stealth skill shouldn't cover masking odors and staying downwind). You automatically succeed at sight-based checks if someone walks out in front of you without concealment, and you automatically succeed at sound-based checks if they take take an action that can't possibly be completed quietly (like firing a gun).
Stealth checks only apply in situations where it is possible for someone to perceive you yet also possible for them to not notice your or to mistake you for something else.
And yes, if you try to sneak past an alert guard dog, they get three checks to notice you- one for sight, one for sound, one for scent.
If you are hidden but visible and a dog moves past you (you aren't moving), he gets two checks- sight and scent.
If you are hidden with full cover and he's sniffing you out, then he only gets one.
Pathfinder's overhaul mostly eliminated the concept of different senses because the multiple rolls stacked things against the sneaker, but as a consequence you have residual rules which are supposed to refer to one sense and don't make sense when applied to others (i.e, automatically hearing you if you're in bright light, or automatically smelling you if you attack).
As others have already said, though, I think there are reasons why these issues are so often overlooked in play: it's a very easy topic for DMs to handle on the fly, based on what makes sense and what doesn't, rules-be-damned.
To everyone saying that stealing chickens in daylight is dumb: what level do you need to be to do it? Because without magic, you have a ton of DC 0 checks no matter what.
Not true. I've skimmed the thread... has anyone mentioned some ranks in Disguise? Maybe Stealth could incorporate your ranks in Disguise? The ole tip-toeing bush trick! No one ever suspects a randomly appearing bush that keeps changing location. A broad-daylight heist is a bit silly, I would make the attempt match... seems Jack got sapped one too many times during his training.
...Otherwise you should probably just drop down on Farmer John from the roof, catch him flatfooted and shank his sorry butt... Club the dog, keep the pups to raise one for your own selling the rest, forge the deed to the farm, no more hunger issues and you have a base of operations. Report back to the Theives' Guild with your ridiculous success. :P
To everyone saying that stealing chickens in daylight is dumb: what level do you need to be to do it? Because without magic, you have a ton of DC 0 checks no matter what.Not true. I've skimmed the thread... has anyone mentioned some ranks in Disguise? Maybe Stealth could incorporate your ranks in Disguise? The ole tip-toeing bush trick! No one ever suspects a randomly appearing bush that keeps changing location. A broad-daylight heist is a bit silly, I would make the attempt match... seems Jack got sapped one too many times during his training.
...Otherwise you should probably just drop down on Farmer John from the roof, catch him flatfooted and shank his sorry butt... Club the dog, keep the pups to raise one for your own selling the rest, forge the deed to the farm, no more hunger issues and you have a base of operations. Report back to the Theives' Guild with your ridiculous success. :P
Ha!
I was thinking about snipers and ghillie suits at the time, which isn't far off from ranks in Disguise and/or the ol' tip-toeing bush trick...or just killing everyone and taking the chicken.
But yeah, by level 5 the rogue had better have become capable of thinking of clever tricks if they want to steal a chicken in broad daylight.
To everyone saying that stealing chickens in daylight is dumb: what level do you need to be to do it? Because without magic, you have a ton of DC 0 checks no matter what.
Well, trying to steal a chicken by sneaking about in right near the farmer and his dog in broad daylight is dumb. It's blatantly taking the worst possible situation for sneaking around and then complaining when the sneaking rightly becomes extremely difficult.
Theft in broad daylight, via stealth, makes more sense if you've set up a distraction somewhere. Perhaps setting a brush fire or having an accomplice make noise around the other side of the farmhouse (thus giving you cover). Then the chicken thief can get in without being observed.
Alternatively, you do what other people do committing theft in broad daylight - you scare the farmer into not doing anything to oppose you. Then, the sneaking doesn't matter.
I know I've said this before, and I apologize if I'm repeating something someone else said, but when the chicken's [eyes] are closed, you're not only in total concealment to it, but it is very dark for the chicken.
...
Interesting question: what does a creature with darkvision see when it closes its eyes???
The inside of its eyelids, like every other creature with eyes?
I think I couldn't sleep very well if I had darkvision...
Darkvision is black-and-white only. I think that when you closed your eyes you would just see black.
Darkvision is black-and-white only. I think that when you closed your eyes you would just see black.
Or veiny, gray-scale eyelids.
Ya know how the pro's steal chickens? One comes to the farmer engaging him in a conversation and attracting the dog with a piece of meat He'll come anyway to examine the stranger, just to keep him occupied (Probably a bluff check and not too tough). Then your assistant walks to the yard, not that stealthily at all, just avoiding notice and snatches the chicken, guting it and hiding it under the skirt on a hook.
An old Varisian trick.
Oh, the piece of raw meat trick works for luring dogs too, Mythbusters proved that one on a trained police dog.
If he had a friend willing to give up a piece of raw meat he probably wouldn't be so hungry.
If he had a friend willing to give up a piece of raw meat he probably wouldn't be so hungry.
LOL, good point!
If he didn't have amnesia, he'd realize he was a 12th level sorcerer not a 5th level rogue and that he could just summon the Invisible Swordsman to get the chicken for him. :D
Regarding using Stealth with cover and/or concealment:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. (page 106, PFRPG Core Rules book, description of the Stealth skill)
Sounds like concealment (like the hedge) would allow Stealth. In addition, Farmer John is distracted, Stealth is allowed again. In which case, the roll becomes an opposed roll, Stealth vs. Perception, for Farmer John (or the dog, for that matter) to notice Jack sneaking around the yard.
From PFRPG Core Rule book, page 102
Notice a creature using Stealth Opposed by Stealth
It states 'to notice', not 'to see' or 'to hear', just 'to notice', which implies (but does not state specifically) that you are 'noticing' the creature using stealth by means of whatever your best, or most commonly used, sense is.
If he had a friend willing to give up a piece of raw meat he probably wouldn't be so hungry.
To lure a dog you can use bones and refuse you won't eat of course ;)
And you may also try to lure the chicken to the corn field by a few well thrown grains...
|
|
To everyone saying that stealing chickens in daylight is dumb: what level do you need to be to do it? Because without magic, you have a ton of DC 0 checks no matter what.
To everyone saying that no GM runs it that way: well duh. The RAW suck. Unfortunately, you end up with alternate interpretations/houserules being different at every table. The rules are vague enough that I couldn't even really call an alternate interpretation of Scent a houserule.
Also, I totally <3 the Diplomacy story.
Running the rules as RAW is about as dumb as stealing a chicken in daylight, especially when it comes to skills. :)
This section describes each skill, including common uses and typical modifiers. Characters can sometimes use skills for purposes other than those noted here, at the GM’s discretion. For a complete summary of all of the skills, see Table 4–3.
Skill descriptions adhere to the following guidelines.Description: The skill name line is followed by a general description of what using the skill represents.
I see your point as to why you brought up this post as I agree there could be much more expansion on the skills sections to help GMs better interpret the rules, but saying the rules fail because of X or Y scenario is not very constructive especially when assumptions of rules outside the skill section are made.
I'll highlight the flaws again;
A hedgerow does provide cover, (by RAW)
You can make a stealth check with concealment in bright daylight (Assumed)
Distance makes an impact on Perception, (RAW)
Movement while stealthed against a distracted opponent uses stealth skill for that entire movement for the round, (RAW, Assumed from start of movement during the round)
A sleeping creature cannot make perception checks reliant on sight, (RAW)
A sleeping creature cannot use (Ex) abilities like scent, (Assumed)
From this breakdown you have 4 RAW rulings and only 3 Assumed rulings based on common sence. That should be enough to rule that the skill works almost identically regardless of the table its played at.
|
|
In addition, Farmer John is distracted, Stealth is allowed again.
Exactly!
If farmer John were standing on his porch constantly staring at the yard (he is observing) then as soon as the rogue breaks cover yes he should be spotted.
However Farmer John is tinkering with his crossbow on his porch, fiddling with something or another and muttering about coyotes. That sounds like he is distracted to me.
So basically the rogue selects his moment when Farmer John is particularly intent on his crossbow and darts across the open ground and back into cover. By RAW this would be at a -10 to the Stealth check (see quote below), however if the distance is only 5 feet or so, some GMs may allow the check unmodifed.
While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Ditto for the dog, unless he is actively sat observing the yard (and not playing with a toy, or gnawing on an old bone) the rogue would get a Stealth check.
|
|
So basically the rogue selects his moment when Farmer John is particularly intent on his crossbow and darts across the open ground and back into cover.
Sorry, but as I pointed out above, in the example given in the OP, the hedges only provide concealment, not cover. And since it is bright light out, the rules state that using stealth requires Invisibility or Cover, and only those two. So unless you can get the farmer to be distracted the entire time you are near the porch, and anytime you are approaching it, your stealth checks are meaningless. (quotes of the pfsrd are included in my original post)
Ditto for the dog, unless he is actively sat observing the yard (and not playing with a toy, or gnawing on an old bone) the rogue would get a Stealth check.
This also might not be true. As the OP was pointing out, the rules on Stealth vs Scent are not clear. It seems to imply that Scent wins regardless of your stealth roll. This is silly and probably not the intent, but with a lack of official rules, allowing stealth to work with scent is a house rule (unless I am mistaken, and someone can show me where the rules discuss this. I agree with the OP that this doesn't make sense, and should be different).
Just wait until the chicken crosses the road and grab it then.
|
|
Sorry, but as I pointed out above, in the example given in the OP, the hedges only provide concealment, not cover. And since it is bright light out, the rules state that using stealth requires Invisibility or Cover, and only those two.
Ah, I see! My point still stands in regards to:
...sky clouds up. Farmer John is back to puttering with his crossbow (with a vengeance, now) and Woof is still fast asleep. Jack tries to chance his same route again, creeping up to the hedges, with Farmer John none the wiser. Then, as Jack tries to zip past the entrance to the porch, the farmer spots him again, [...]
Oops. You need cover or concealment to use Stealth. Once you step out of your cover/concealment, the DC to spot him is 0 again.
In regards to the earlier point about doing this in broad daylight I think this is because the GM says the hedge only provide Concealment not Cover (capitalised as these are games terms) and therefore by RAW Stealth isn't allowed.
Presumably though these hedges are quite sparse, probably leafless as well, otherwise they would provide Cover as:
Hedgerows: Common in moors, hedgerows are tangles of stones, soil, and thorny bushes. [...] They provide total cover, just as a wall does.
So, if the GM had just said they were hedges then the Rogue should be allowed his Stealth check.
I'll highlight the flaws again;
A hedgerow does provide cover, (by RAW)
You can make a stealth check with concealment in bright daylight (Assumed)
Distance makes an impact on Perception, (RAW)
Movement while stealthed against a distracted opponent uses stealth skill for that entire movement for the round, (RAW, Assumed from start of movement during the round)
A sleeping creature cannot make perception checks reliant on sight, (RAW)
A sleeping creature cannot use (Ex) abilities like scent, (Assumed)
Nice summary.
But the last assumption is wrong. There is no valid reason in the RAW to disallow use of extraordinary abilities while sleeping and there is no reason to automatically assume that Scent requires some kind of active effort.
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching
enemies
Detecting approaching enemies. Now, if we were a human and didn't have the Scent ability, how would we detect approaching enemies? We would use our eyes or our ears. What is the game mechanic for that? Perception. What is the action required for a Perception check?
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in
response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching
for stimulus is a move action.
Scent is no different. It's just a different way for some creatures to make their Perception checks, but the action is still the same.
This is further confirmed by:
Noting the direction of the scent is a
move action.
Note how similar that is to the line about Perception actions that says "intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action." Very similar situations, very similar actions.
And final confirmation:
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar
odors just as humans do familiar sights.
There you have it. Using Scent to identify an odor, say, of a stranger skulking around the chicken coop, is done "just as humans do" to visually or audibly identify a stranger skulking around the chicken coop.
Ergo, it's just a Perception check, and therefore uses the Perception check rules, including the fact that it's a reaction to stimulus and can be used while sleeping at a -10 penalty.
QED
|
|
What I think that this thread highlights is not just a gap in the rules regarding stealth but perhaps a larger issue.
Why are there not counters to other forms of detection? Whether they be mundane (ie odor masking oils) or magical (ie a ring of underwater movement that counters tremorsense or spells that make one immune to scent detection or echo location)?
It is pretty obvious that sight and hearing are king within the rules, but the rest of senses need more adequate addressing IMO.
Actually I'd define stealth like moving without attracting attention. You can do that even while observed, but it's hardly an easy task.
I'd leave it alone, as the thought of human sneaking upon a chicken is a rather dumb thing to do. Chickens do have much more to spot than +1. They are actually just as perceptive as the dog, if not more. Especially if there is a flock of them. Actually one of every 6 or so is coninually looking around for danger and with something like 200+ degrees field of vision it's pretty hard to assume that they don't spot the rogue. It's like an elephant trying to sneak upon two humans standing back to back and looking around on an airfield. Add that poultry is quite noisy when alarmed and you have a sure way to get a crossbow bolt between your ribs if you try this scenario. The trick is, that the chicken don't care and that they don't mind humans moving about. They are used to that and wouldn't bother to react in any way even if there was a fox (clear danger) unless it got within 7 or so mters, then they would simply cluck a little more and slowly walk away. They usually don't waste the energy for alarm unless directly threatened. Otherwise you would't get near enough to catch them without a net or some ranged weapon, hence I suggest using bluff, rather thank stealth.
EDIT: Wohoo! Such a nitpick post and no 100. I must be soooo evil :P
To everyone saying that stealing chickens in daylight is dumb: what level do you need to be to do it? Because without magic, you have a ton of DC 0 checks no matter what.
Thanks for a great thread. It's fascinating to see how many different ways folks have interpreted the rules for your scenario.
To everyone saying that no GM runs it that way: well duh. The RAW suck. Unfortunately, you end up with alternate interpretations/houserules being different at every table. The rules are vague enough that I couldn't even really call an alternate interpretation of Scent a houserule.
To me the fact that it's interpreted differently at every table isn't a horrible thing. It doesn't make the game less fun, it just means you have to get used to different GMs. For the typical group you just get used to your GM.
For tournament play and pickup games it's a bigger issue but I've never really had any issues with it. I don't have a huge amount of experience with that though.