That's all well and good but if someone doesn't buy the AP's they get shafted in the info stakes for Gods... imo, that's plain wrong.How can an AP give more detailed info on a God than the God book does???Because the god book only has 2 pages allocated to each god (as the Chronicles line is always 64 pages, 20 major gods x 2 pages = 40 pages, plus room for info on the lesser gods), whereas the AP can devote 6, 8, or even 10 pages to a god article that is especially relevant to that AP. Iomedae and Asmodeus are particularly associated with Council of Thieves, for example, so they get big writeups that can go into more detail than Gods and Magic.
if there are particular gods you are interested in, you can always purchase that specific book
Creative Director
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That's all well and good but if someone doesn't buy the AP's they get shafted in the info stakes for Gods... imo, that's plain wrong.
To be totally mercenary... we WANT folks to buy our Adventure Paths. they're the backbone product that keeps Paizo afloat. With the advent of the bigger hardcover rulebooks, that might change, but traditionally and for now, the Adventure Path's success is very much what keeps Paizo going.
A compilation product somewhere down the line that takes the 20 god articles out of Pathfinder and puts them into one big hardcover would certainly be cool, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we did something like this... but that book can't happen until we get ALL of the articles done and that's still a year or 2 away.
In the end, the larger god articles are in the APs because our APs generally benefit from having a strong presence of a few different types of gods.
If you're a player who wants to see more of the deity your character worships, it's a relatively easy thing to just buy that single volume of the AP. If you're a GM who wants to have ALL of that material, chances are good you're already buying every volume of the AP as it stands, because there's more to each AP than adventures and god articles... they're the biggest thing we currently do to build up Golarion every month.
That's all well and good but if someone doesn't buy the AP's they get shafted in the info stakes for Gods... imo, that's plain wrong.
But on the other hand, the other option would be that there is no extra info on deities and all we had was Gods and Magic. In my opinion, that is a lot worse.
To be totally mercenary... we WANT folks to buy our Adventure Paths.
I'm still not completely sure I get what you're asking us to do...
If you're a player who wants to see more of the deity your character worships, it's a relatively easy thing to just buy that single volume of the AP.
I get what you're saying about the money, and you'll see that I sub to a lot of stuff, but others can't afford it and I was speaking on their behalf. I really don't like injustices and this kinda looks like one.
As for suggesting that players buy parts of AP's that their DM might want to run at some point because it has detailed info on their chosen God...not sure that's a good idea, speaking from a DM's point of view, but for Paizo's coffers, obviously it is ;-)
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Creative Director
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If you're a player who wants to see more of the deity your character worships, it's a relatively easy thing to just buy that single volume of the AP.
I get what you're saying about the money, and you'll see that I sub to a lot of stuff, but others can't afford it and I was speaking on their behalf. I really don't like injustices and this kinda looks like one.
As for suggesting that players buy parts of AP's that their DM might want to run at some point because it has detailed info on their chosen God...not sure that's a good idea, speaking from a DM's point of view, but for Paizo's coffers, obviously it is ;-)
Well... I'm sorry you see it as an injustice. I see it as a necessity—we have a lot of eggs in the AP basket, and that's on purpose. We don't want folks to not buy six volumes because, say, they don't like a particular AP's plot. We want to fill EVERY AP volume with a nice mix of material so that even when we're doing an AP you don't want to use or won't ever run, those volumes will still have material you can use. It's a critical part of what makes the AP line successful, I suspect.
And if you don't trust your players to stay out of adventures if there's something they want to read that's player-safe in a book, that's a different problem entirely.
To be totally mercenary... we WANT folks to buy our Adventure Paths. they're the backbone product that keeps Paizo afloat. With the advent of the bigger hardcover rulebooks, that might change, but traditionally and for now, the Adventure Path's success is very much what keeps Paizo going.
A compilation product somewhere down the line that takes the 20 god articles out of Pathfinder and puts them into one big hardcover would certainly be cool, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we did something like this... but that book can't happen until we get ALL of the articles done and that's still a year or 2 away.
In the end, the larger god articles are in the APs because our APs generally benefit from having a strong presence of a few different types of gods.
If you're a player who wants to see more of the deity your character worships, it's a relatively easy thing to just buy that single volume of the AP. If you're a GM who wants to have ALL of that material, chances are good you're already buying every volume of the AP as it stands, because there's more to each AP than adventures and god articles... they're the biggest thing we currently do to build up Golarion every month.
That's my big problem. I openly admit, again, that I'm not likely to be a target audience - I like to run my own adventures, not use prepublished ones, and I generally use my own homebrew.
I like Golarion as an alternative, but the adventure paths just don't do anything for me. I picked up the first volume of CotCT and have almost no use for any of the adventure. I'm not even sure I could reflavor half of it to work in my campaign, and I don't want to put forward $120 just for a campaign. I wound up with volume 2 of CoT in part because of Iomedae's article and in part because I'm curious how the adventure with a play as a central focus would run, but it already will be something I'll be using as a guide more than an actual adventure, in all likelihood. I wouldn't necessarily mind a book with flavor text about the world. I own several key Eberron books for the world flavor, even if I don't necessarily plan on running in Eberron - Secrets of Sarlona was an excellent read, and not just for the scant bits of psionic material. But would I pay out about 4 times that much for about the same amount of information and a bunch of data that I am even less likely to use? Not really, no.
I get that it's your business model, and if it's working for you, then great. But the lack of flavor books (or the greater amount of flavor in products that I have less interest in) means that my money's much more safely in my wallet. I have Classic Monsters and Dungeon Denizens because the subjects are definitely interesting to me, but I don't go around buying adventure paths just for a scant amount of data that I can glean to provide to my players. I suppose I'm in the general minority.
I'm working again.
Will resub to some of my subscriptions once I get paid, and the rest probably once the "previous month" book is the one I want to start with rather than the "next month" book. (And cards and maps after that since I can pick up missed months without worrying about losing a PDF by delaying, since those subs don't have PDFs.)
I love the rate at which the printed materials come out. Gives me plenty to read when I get my shipments. (I haven't been buying the scenarios since I don't do organized play and they're not printed.)
I don't read all the material in the Adventure Paths but I do read a fair portion of it, and with the Pathfinder Advantage, if you are subscribing to enough material, it's almost like the Adventure Path is free. (It's $14ish after the 30% off, and you might just save $7 or $10 on your other materials with the 15% off that the PF Advantage carries.) I don't see any reason not to get the Adventure Path if you're buying enough other materials. (That 15% off is also nice when shopping the Paizo store.)
Just looking at my last subscription shipment in August:
(First column is if I DID NOT subscribe to the AP, second column is if I DID have the AP subscription.)
$49.99.....$42.49 PFRPG Core
$14.99.....$12.74 Chronicles: LoF Mapfolio
$10.99.....$09.34 Companion: Cheliax
$13.99.....$11.89 Modules: Crypt of Everflame
$00.00.....$13.99 PF #25: Bastards of Erebus
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$89.96.....$90.45
So.....
That's a 49 cent difference when I subscribed to the adventure path than if I had not purchased the adventure path. Granted, most months the difference won't be that close because a lot of the money off was on the PFRPG Core Rulebook and most months won't have a big book like that, but the Chronicles books usually run $19.99, not $14.99 and they're reduced to $16.99 with the PF Advantage. That 15% off can go toward most things carried in the Paizo store too.
My favorite subs are the modules, the cards, and the chronicles, but I just can't see passing up the AP subscription when it's going to lower the price of the AP by 30% AND all the other subs by 15% AND most Paizo store purchases by 15%.
Of course I may just be an obsessive purchaser, but I've been fiending for a Pathfinder fix since my last shipment and can't wait to restart my subs.
I get what you're saying about the money, and you'll see that I sub to a lot of stuff, but others can't afford it and I was speaking on their behalf. I really don't like injustices and this kinda looks like one.
Not really. The AP is what Pathfinder is at the core. Its what it started as with everything else stemming from that due mostly to the pure popularity of the AP product.
So why mess with success?
If there is a list somewhere showing what is in each AP as far as "non-module" material, it'd go a long way to helping people pick up just those volumes that they want.
If you do not feel like subscribing to the dead-tree subscription of the AP, you might look at just picking up individual PDF's based on what you do want and then printing up those couple of pages of info for your personal use. That way you have something until 2 years from now and Paizo comes out with some compiled AP goodness.
I've found that the PDF's are great for that. As I do not currently own a laptop I can just print off the info relative to what I might need at the time to run a game. Saves carrying my whole library with me. This might be just the monsters or whatever.
Having the PDF's of the AP's is also going to be nice for me because I can easily "copy/paste" stat blocks from Rise of the Runelords into a notepad or whatever so that I can make changes to upgrade 3.5 material to PRPG.
Having a PDF of the Bestiary will also be nice because I can print up the individual monsters that are not listed in that AP so I will not have to keep flipping open the Bestiary.
Eventually I'll get that laptop or netbook and having everything Paizo/Pathfinder on PDF will be great.
If there is a list somewhere showing what is in each AP as far as "non-module" material, it'd go a long way to helping people pick up just those volumes that they want.
An index of articles in the Adventure Path books seems like something that could be a Wiki page.
That's all well and good but if someone doesn't buy the AP's they get shafted in the info stakes for Gods... imo, that's plain wrong.How can an AP give more detailed info on a God than the God book does???Because the god book only has 2 pages allocated to each god (as the Chronicles line is always 64 pages, 20 major gods x 2 pages = 40 pages, plus room for info on the lesser gods), whereas the AP can devote 6, 8, or even 10 pages to a god article that is especially relevant to that AP. Iomedae and Asmodeus are particularly associated with Council of Thieves, for example, so they get big writeups that can go into more detail than Gods and Magic.
Perhaps, and I can see your point. However, by the same token it would be even more wrong for someone to buy an AP and find out they didn't have everything they needed to run the game. Thats what the APs are packaged as, a complete adventure. You can run them straight out of the book. That would NOT be the case if it said, "oh, and theres this information on this diety that you need, but to get it you have to buy XX book". This way everyone has access to quite a bit of information on the deities through the gods and magic book, while the people running or playing in the AP gain access to city specific, or adventure specific deity information. You shouldn't have to buy a fluff book just to run the AP. Shouldn't need anything but the Core Rulebooks and the adventure.
I DO hope that paizo at some point does a compilation of the 20 articles when they are done, and consider releasing a compilation of the Pathfinder/Golarion specific monsters they have created.
Perhaps, and I can see your point. However, by the same token it would be even more wrong for someone to buy an AP and find out they didn't have everything they needed to run the game. Thats what the APs are packaged as, a complete adventure. You can run them straight out of the book.
I'm not certain this argument holds up. There's a detailed article on the dragons of Golarion in AP #4; okay, there are dragons at various point in the adventure. They are not a major focus of the adventure, so why do we need more information on them than, say, goblins, lamia, or barghests?
Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice article. I'm just questioning the notion that it's needed to run this particular AP any more than it would be needed to run any random AP that included a couple of dragons. GameMastery Module J2: Guardians of Dragonfall is presumably the most dragon-centric adventure yet produced by Paizo; if the dragon article from AP 4 is "needed" anywhere, it should be there. Oh, right, just an adventure module, not an adventure path.
Again, I think these articles are valuable, but I also think it's disingenuous to claim their primary value is related to a single adventure path.
I'm subscribed to enough of the lines that the wide spread of information is less an economic concern for me and more an indexing issue. If I want general information on a major deity, I know right where to go: Campaign Setting or Gods & Magic. If I want detailed information....um, let's see, I know it was in one of the ever-increasing number of AP volumes....somewhere....
I'm subscribed to enough of the lines that the wide spread of information is less an economic concern for me and more an indexing issue. If I want general information on a major deity, I know right where to go: Campaign Setting or Gods & Magic. If I want detailed information....um, let's see, I know it was in one of the ever-increasing number of AP volumes....somewhere....
Isn't that what the PDF by chapter are for?
I have several file folders with the pertinent information. So if I need info on the Shoanti, I look under my People folder. If I need info on a god, I look in my Gods folder (which has the AP longer version of the gods as well as the God & Magic book).I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just trying to figure out why you don't seem to be making the most of the PDF features.
I would say that intuitively, it would be strange that a product that was primarily about deities would have less information on any given one of them than an article in an AP that just needed enough information to run the adventure. Perhaps Gods and Magic was released a bit prematurely, and should have waiting until each deity was more fully realized? What I mean is, some have said they hope that Paizo puts out a book with all of the AP articles in it about all the deities. Shouldn't that have been what was in Gods and Magic?
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I would say that intuitively, it would be strange that a product that was primarily about deities would have less information on any given one of them than an article in an AP that just needed enough information to run the adventure. Perhaps Gods and Magic was released a bit prematurely, and should have waiting until each deity was more fully realized? What I mean is, some have said they hope that Paizo puts out a book with all of the AP articles in it about all the deities. Shouldn't that have been what was in Gods and Magic?
but then it would have been a $60 hardcover instead of the much more manageable price it was.
The rest is my thoughts on the issue, not just at presman's entry quoted above....
G&M is already considered one of the great must have books in the chronicles line, to work as an advanced introduction to the gods..
Think of it this way (the numbers are arbitrary),the Core rules/campaign setting are the cover and spine of the book, they have enough information on them to let you know what each god is about, and narrow down which ones you want to read more about. G&M is the dust cover preview of the book, allowing you to understand where each god is coming from and going to within the space of the world in broad strokes, taking the 5 gods you like from the setting or core rules and eliminating 2-3 from your 'must read' list. The AP articles are the in-depth story actually in the pages of the book.
I'm just saying that while it may be frustrating that the God you WANT isn't in a AP yet, doesn't mean 1) G&M should have been delayed, as that would mean we'd have no deeper look at the gods thank the campaign setting for 5 years. 2)that G&M should have had the big articles, as it serves its purpose of getting us a lot of additional information and wanting to buy the AP adventure containing the big article when it comes out and 3) that the AP (as James said the bread and butter of the company, with hundreds-thousands more subscribers than other lines) shouldn't have these articles. This is where the bulk of the subscribers get their information on the world, so why deny them information on the gods of the world?
What I mean is, some have said they hope that Paizo puts out a book with all of the AP articles in it about all the deities. Shouldn't that have been what was in Gods and Magic?but then it would have been a $60 hardcover instead of the much more manageable price it was.
pres man described a book compiling the dieties articles from the APs to create a beefier Gods & Magic, not an Encyclopedia Golariona with all articles of any sort. Averaging 8 pages per major deity that's a 160-page book, which would be grossly overpriced at $60. Yes, additional information on lesser entities would increase the page count, but AFAIK only the major gods get the AP treatment.
3) that the AP (as James said the bread and butter of the company, with hundreds-thousands more subscribers than other lines) shouldn't have these articles. This is where the bulk of the subscribers get their information on the world, so why deny them information on the gods of the world?
This may be less a matter of choice and more one of necessity (at least originally; possibly a matter of habit for some by now), since the APs preceded the Core Rules release by two years. I'm not sure haw far back the Companion and Chronicles lines go, but wasn't the AP subscription the only source of information for a while? Small wonder that it was the preferred source, if so.
3) that the AP (as James said the bread and butter of the company, with hundreds-thousands more subscribers than other lines) shouldn't have these articles. This is where the bulk of the subscribers get their information on the world, so why deny them information on the gods of the world?This may be less a matter of choice and more one of necessity (at least originally; possibly a matter of habit for some by now), since the APs preceded the Core Rules release by two years. I'm not sure haw far back the Companion and Chronicles lines go, but wasn't the AP subscription the only source of information for a while? Small wonder that it was the preferred source, if so.
Yes, the AP subscription WAS the only source of information on a lot of things for a while.
Well... I'm sorry you see it as an injustice. I see it as a necessity—we have a lot of eggs in the AP basket, and that's on purpose. We don't want folks to not buy six volumes because, say, they don't like a particular AP's plot. We want to fill EVERY AP volume with a nice mix of material so that even when we're doing an AP you don't want to use or won't ever run, those volumes will still have material you can use. It's a critical part of what makes the AP line successful, I suspect.
Paizo haven't been taken over by Hasbro have they?
It seems that the way you talk about the Adventure Paths is as if you were taking about Dungeon or Dragon Magazine. It's called Pathfinder: Adventure Path, not "Golarion Monthly". If it is, as intended, to cover a wide range of material that will appeal to many different people, thats fine but it isn't suggesting any of that in it's title.
Paizo haven't been taken over by Hasbro have they?
That was childish and inflammatory!
Nice adulting there!As cpt_kristov has said, its not about exclusion, the majority of paizo business goes to the APs not the Chronicles.
So more people get the info if its in the APs, especially useful is that the diety in an AP is also relavent to the AP.
It's unlikely to change because it works well for paizo and many of their customers, not to say that the majority is more important and if you don't tow line then you aren't a good customer, far from it.
BUT, paizo have limited resources, they have to spread the information out so that it doesn't make them a loss so they can keep producing stuff and so that their team can manage it.
Big books already disrupt the product outflow, and a big once of a kind book like that would certainly do so, also because of printing sizes they couldn't just do a 160page+intro book, it's likely be closer to the campaign setting in size, and that prize.
So maybe that will be released in future, giving Sean and whoever else writes the diety articles to spread out the workload, but its not realisitic for them to have done it early in terms of workload and costs and so on. It's not greedy or evilly corporate for a business to want to stay afloat, just like they'd like to do box-sets, but don't want to bankrupt like TSR.
For me, more paizo success means continued high-quality products from a company with amazing transparency who try to explain all of the process that they can to their customers, which is fantastic service.
So really, there's no way what you want could have been made already, its not greed or anything of the sort and Gods and Magic is still a great book that really has all of the basic ideas you'd need to use a god, you could happily play a cleric of a diety without ever reading its AP article.
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Creative Director
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The Adventure Path line has been FAR AND ABOVE the MOST successful part of our publishing business; the core rulebooks are the first thing we've done that have eclipsed the adventure path books in popularity. What I'm saying is that we're obviously doing SOMETHING right with the Adventure Path, and I'm not interested in changing that formula. We found something that works, and minor adjustments are always happening to that formula, but huge changes like removing all of the back matter and making each volume one huge adventure installment are not going to happen.
And no... Hasbro has not bought out Paizo. My bank account is proof enough of that.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I only cost $52,000 a year plus benefits.Heh heh heh indeed... I believe at that cost you're looking at the exact wrong industry to jump ship into.
Indeed. I thought about applying for the editorial assistant position since I their offices are just across the lake, and they're great peeps and it would be a good time and, cmon, it's WORKING DOING D&D/PF, but... I decided that it was probably a better plan to just stay as a regular "Contributor"! :)
P.S. I was somewhat amused at PaizoCon seeing how totally up to date some of the Paizo Superfans are. My hat's off to you and glad you enjoy, but that is a pretty brisk pace to keep current with everything Paizo.
Paizo haven't been taken over by Hasbro have they?
Do you see Pathfinder Clue? Pathfinder Risk? Pathfinder Monopoly?
No? Then no. :P
If it is, as intended, to cover a wide range of material that will appeal to many different people, thats fine but it isn't suggesting any of that in it's title.
What is it suggesting in its title?
For me, an Adventure Path means more than just adventures. It's a complete campaign, with a whole storyline as well as supportive material.
They don't randomly throw in material in there, you know: The articles support the adventure, and the path. It's not "Adventure in Irrisen, Mwangi Gazetteer, Native's Guide to the People of Ustalav, and the Thouseand Gods of Vudra."
the APs preceded the Core Rules release by two years
And the Core Rules do not offer any setting information.
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pres man described a book compiling the dieties articles from the APs to create a beefier Gods & Magic, not an Encyclopedia Golariona with all articles of any sort. Averaging 8 pages per major deity that's a 160-page book, which would be grossly overpriced at $60. Yes, additional information on lesser entities would increase the page count, but AFAIK only the major gods get the AP treatment.What I mean is, some have said they hope that Paizo puts out a book with all of the AP articles in it about all the deities. Shouldn't that have been what was in Gods and Magic?but then it would have been a $60 hardcover instead of the much more manageable price it was.
8pages per major diety = 160 pages
2 pages per minor diety (as the red mantis god got) = 30 pagethe archdevils article (since people worship them too) = 8 pages
introduction = 2 pages
index = 1-2 pages
ads = 2-4 pages
title page = 2 pages
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205-208 pages
This doesn't include the 2 pages per major diety for their 'spokesman' monster (I know thats not what they're called I'm just at work) that puts us 245-248 which would need to be expanded to 256 because they print in 16 pages sections. This puts it at the same exact size as the campaign setting which is a 49.99 book. As this expanded Gods book would most likly have a smaller print run, the price would go up...
The Adventure Path line has been FAR AND ABOVE the MOST successful part of our publishing business; the core rulebooks are the first thing we've done that have eclipsed the adventure path books in popularity. What I'm saying is that we're obviously doing SOMETHING right with the Adventure Path, and I'm not interested in changing that formula.
Speaking only for myself, I wasn't expecting a change, just speculating about (a) whether the huge success enjoyed but the APs is due mainly to that line being the only game in town at the start (yes, we gamers do vote with our dollars, but at the outset, there was only the one candidate); and (b) the validity of the argument some posters have made that the detailed articles in the APs are there primarily because that level of detail is needed for those APs.
I'd like to have seen similar information consolidated rather than spread out, but that's not how it started out and I can't see it changing midstream. Also, I have no idea whether my preference in that regard puts me in the majority or not. I've been gaming for 30 years and as a rule I've bought core rules and sourcebooks of all kinds for many systems, but largely eschewed adventure modules of any kind. With some initial reluctance, I became a charter subscriber to the Adventure Paths because I saw them as the only available point of entry to Pathfinder/Golarion, and because I'm a sucker for discounts. :)
I guess the drive behind the content design, and the reason for the APs continued success -- presuming little to no dropoff now that the Core Rules line is established -- is simply "something for everyone." It's not Corporate Evil behavior to design a product with as wide appeal as possible, it's just good business and common sense. The more narrowly focused a product is, the smaller the demand for it, so it goes out of print early and perhaps loses money for the publisher. No one wants that. But the down side is that people who don't want it all can easily end up buying a larger number of products than they'd counted on, in pursuit of the body of information they do care about.
I certainly have no solution for this. Perhaps, with apologies to Winston Churchill, "Paizo's is the worst gaming-business model in the world, except for all the others."
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The Adventure Path line has been FAR AND ABOVE the MOST successful part of our publishing business; the core rulebooks are the first thing we've done that have eclipsed the adventure path books in popularity. What I'm saying is that we're obviously doing SOMETHING right with the Adventure Path, and I'm not interested in changing that formula. We found something that works, and minor adjustments are always happening to that formula, but huge changes like removing all of the back matter and making each volume one huge adventure installment are not going to happen.
And no... Hasbro has not bought out Paizo. My bank account is proof enough of that.
While I would love to see more in-depth articles on minor gods (Achaechek!) I'm happy with the current format. I get a great deal on the APs for content and quality. If a Companion or Chronicles product comes along that I am interested in, I pick it up. No worries.
Maybe somewhere along the line we could see a Deities & Demigods style book? One can hope. But that doesn't mean I don't want the APs to change format.
The structure works. The books are a good size, organized, and have a bit of everything.
Seriously, we should be happy the material is published at all. This seems a bit like biting the hand that feeds.
PS. Have I mentioned how ecstatic I was with the Tiefling options in CoT? Fantastic. I love d% charts!
pres man described a book compiling the dieties articles from the APs to create a beefier Gods & Magic, not an Encyclopedia Golariona with all articles of any sort. Averaging 8 pages per major deity that's a 160-page book, which would be grossly overpriced at $60. Yes, additional information on lesser entities would increase the page count, but AFAIK only the major gods get the AP treatment.What I mean is, some have said they hope that Paizo puts out a book with all of the AP articles in it about all the deities. Shouldn't that have been what was in Gods and Magic?but then it would have been a $60 hardcover instead of the much more manageable price it was.8pages per major diety = 160 pages
2 pages per minor diety (as the red mantis god got) = 30 page
the archdevils article (since people worship them too) = 8 pages
introduction = 2 pages
index = 1-2 pages
ads = 2-4 pages
title page = 2 pages--------------
205-208 pages
This doesn't include the 2 pages per major diety for their 'spokesman' monster (I know thats not what they're called I'm just at work) that puts us 245-248 which would need to be expanded to 256 because they print in 16 pages sections. This puts it at the same exact size as the campaign setting which is a 49.99 book. As this expanded Gods book would most likly have a smaller print run, the price would go up...
So the current format is:
$20 (cost of an issue of PF for a single deity) for 8 pages, 20 deities = $400 to get the informationI might be wrong, but $400 > $40 to $60, isn't it?
So the current format is:
$20 (cost of an issue of PF for a single deity) for 8 pages, 20 deities = $400 to get the information
Yeah. And a German Three-Pointed Throwing Star costs over 20000 Euros (can cost more than ten times that much). But they're throwing in a car for every star you buy.
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Yeah. And a German Three-Pointed Throwing Star costs over 20000 Euros (can cost more than ten times that much). But they're throwing in a car for every star you buy.
So the current format is:
$20 (cost of an issue of PF for a single deity) for 8 pages, 20 deities = $400 to get the information
Lol I got the reference pretty quick, but just might be because I was almost hit by one of those stars this morning.
Yeah. And a German Three-Pointed Throwing Star costs over 20000 Euros (can cost more than ten times that much). But they're throwing in a car for every star you buy.
So the current format is:
$20 (cost of an issue of PF for a single deity) for 8 pages, 20 deities = $400 to get the information
So you are suggesting that the article has as much relative value as a hood ornament? What a low view of these people's work you have.
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Creative Director
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Speaking only for myself, I wasn't expecting a change, just speculating about (a) whether the huge success enjoyed but the APs is due mainly to that line being the only game in town at the start (yes, we gamers do vote with our dollars, but at the outset, there was only the one candidate); and (b) the validity of the argument some posters have made that the detailed articles in the APs are there primarily because that level of detail is needed for those APs.
The adventure paths still continue to do much better business than most other lines... and the other lines are doing pretty well, so that means that the APs are doing QUITE well. And we didn't idly decide to focus the backbone of Paizo's Pathfinder plans on Adventure Paths—we had, after all, already done three of them in Dungeon. Customer feedback and response and market data told us even at that point that Adventure Paths were a strong business model. Heck; they basically saved Dungeon from going away at around issue #95 or #100... that magazine was struggling to find its voice and long-time readers might remember the various things we were trying to keep it relavent and profitable (Polyhedron section, subscriber only content, switching to a monthly schedule from a bimonthly one, etc.). The adventure path concept basically saved Dungeon's life... and with Pathifnder, it's actually saved PAIZO'S life.
I can't say I am thrilled with the SIZE of a number of the subscription books (companions/chronicles.)Meaning... you'd want them to increase in page count?
I can't speak for James, but I'd rather see fewer, larger books than a steady supply of 32- or 64-page books.
Heck; they basically saved Dungeon from going away at around issue #95 or #100... that magazine was struggling to find its voice and long-time readers might remember the various things we were trying to keep it relavent and profitable (Polyhedron section, subscriber only content, switching to a monthly schedule from a bimonthly one, etc.). The adventure path concept basically saved Dungeon's life... and with Pathifnder, it's actually saved PAIZO'S life.
Huh, interesting, I did not know that about Dungeon. In keeping with my long standing avoidance of adventure modules, I was never a Dungeon subscriber; I just have those issues that were (from my perspective) the flipside of Polyhedron. No idea whether those combined Poly/Dungeon issues contain a complete Adventure Path. Let's see...
Shackled City = Dungeon 97-116, off and on; reprinted in HC
Age of Worms = Dungeon #124-135
Savage Tide = Dungeon #139-150
Combined issues began with Dungeon #90, but apparently split again beginning with #114, so I don't have any of the Paths in my back issue magazines. I did buy Shackled City (as a possible setting book) at a deep discount during my FLGS's inventory reduction sale a couple of years ago, for either 75% or 90% off. I think I heard that contractually the two later paths cannot be reprinted?
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Creative Director
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I can't speak for James, but I'd rather see fewer, larger books than a steady supply of 32- or 64-page books.I can't say I am thrilled with the SIZE of a number of the subscription books (companions/chronicles.)Meaning... you'd want them to increase in page count?
I kind of would too... but the problem is that fewer, larger books means that cash flow into the company is spottier. It's better to have 120 clams of income come in over the course of 12 months in 10-clam installments than it is to have one single 120 clam payment every year, or even three 40 clam payments three times a year.
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Creative Director
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Combined issues began with Dungeon #90, but apparently split again beginning with #114, so I don't have any of the Paths in my back issue magazines. I did buy Shackled City (as a possible setting book) at a deep discount during my FLGS's inventory reduction sale a couple of years ago, for either 75% or 90% off. I think I heard that contractually the two later paths cannot be reprinted?
All of the contents of Dungeon are owned by WotC. We had to arrange a special licensing deal with them to reprint the Shackled City adventures as a hardcover book, and although we asked many times for permission to do the same for Age of Worms and Savage Tide, they never gave us that permission.
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Combined issues began with Dungeon #90, but apparently split again beginning with #114, so I don't have any of the Paths in my back issue magazines. I did buy Shackled City (as a possible setting book) at a deep discount during my FLGS's inventory reduction sale a couple of years ago, for either 75% or 90% off. I think I heard that contractually the two later paths cannot be reprinted?All of the contents of Dungeon are owned by WotC. We had to arrange a special licensing deal with them to reprint the Shackled City adventures as a hardcover book, and although we asked many times for permission to do the same for Age of Worms and Savage Tide, they never gave us that permission.
But can Wizards print them on their own or would they need a deal with Paizo?
Not that they ever would now, but maybe in the future?
The Adventure Path line has been FAR AND ABOVE the MOST successful part of our publishing business; the core rulebooks are the first thing we've done that have eclipsed the adventure path books in popularity. What I'm saying is that we're obviously doing SOMETHING right with the Adventure Path, and I'm not interested in changing that formula. We found something that works, and minor adjustments are always happening to that formula, but huge changes like removing all of the back matter and making each volume one huge adventure installment are not going to happen.
And no... Hasbro has not bought out Paizo. My bank account is proof enough of that.
Trust me, I really do understand what you're saying. But things are changing. You are now a stand-alone product, no longer slave to WotC [Hasbro] core products.
You aren't "just making adventures" any more. You're a blossoming company with an amazingly good product. PFRPG is going to be very successful. Books, not soft covers, but books will follow although slowly at first.Maybe I'm looking at Paizo from an angle that you can't. The Hasbro comment was obviously a joke [although some missed that] but I think Paizo is no longer the little side company it once was, I can see that.
As I'm the DM, you can put whatever you like in the AP's, I'm still buying them. For players though, I think a clearer defined product line that allows players to access the stuff they need without getting involved with the AP material would be better imo.
Thanks for being so frank with your replies, it is appreciated.
I kind of would too... but the problem is that fewer, larger books means that cash flow into the company is spottier. It's better to have 120 clams of income come in over the course of 12 months in 10-clam installments than it is to have one single 120 clam payment every year, or even three 40 clam payments three times a year.
I could have paid for all of these books in clams?! Dammit!!
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But can Wizards print them on their own or would they need a deal with Paizo? Not that they ever would now, but maybe in the future?With or without Paizo they are never going to. They're done with 3rd edition.
Never say never. If there is money to be made they will do it. They just can't now without damaging 4th Edition.
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Never say never. If there is money to be made they will do it. They just can't now without damaging 4th Edition.But can Wizards print them on their own or would they need a deal with Paizo? Not that they ever would now, but maybe in the future?With or without Paizo they are never going to. They're done with 3rd edition.
No offense Jal but the never say never attitude in this case is just being ignorant.
Forgotten Realms fans have been waiting close to 10 years for Wizards to ALLOW Profantasy to release the 4th and final patch (that's been finished for close to 8 years now) to the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas. Guess what came out today, Windows 7. It'll be interesting to see if the Atlas works.
They've also gone from promising compiled versions of their initial online pre-4E issues of Dungeon and Dragon to completely ignoring the issue whenever someone asks about them. Don't expect them to do anything, ever that could possibly be construed as promoting previous versions of the game. :-(
Let's try to keep the hate to a minimum shall we guys. It doesn't belong here, or so I've been told.
They don't randomly throw in material in there, you know: The articles support the adventure, and the path. It's not "Adventure in Irrisen, Mwangi Gazetteer, Native's Guide to the People of Ustalav, and the Thouseand Gods of Vudra."
Incorrect. Nowadays they are much better about it, but for quite some time there was a fair amount of extraneous material not germane to the given AP.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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They don't randomly throw in material in there, you know: The articles support the adventure, and the path. It's not "Adventure in Irrisen, Mwangi Gazetteer, Native's Guide to the People of Ustalav, and the Thouseand Gods of Vudra."Incorrect. Nowadays they are much better about it, but for quite some time there was a fair amount of extraneous material not germane to the given AP.
For example?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I kind of would too... but the problem is that fewer, larger books means that cash flow into the company is spottier. It's better to have 120 clams of income come in over the course of 12 months in 10-clam installments than it is to have one single 120 clam payment every year, or even three 40 clam payments three times a year.
Strangely enough, my wallet feels the same about debts. :-)