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Whitethrone, capital of the wintry land of Irrisen, homeland to bloodline almost as ancient as winter itself makes one of the six Cities of Golarion.
I hope one of these days James Jacobs & the crew reimagines and places Grandma Bony Legs' hut in Golarion.
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The Minstrel Wyrm and Set may very well be channeling some of Baba Yaga's divination powers because they posted on this thread a few hrs before the blog went live.
edit: My CoT PC may very well be an off shoot of the prolific hag as well : )
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I read today's blog about Whitethrone, the capital of Irrisen:
Home to the jadwiga ("children of the witch-mother"), the descendents of the witch Baba Yaga (...)
"Jadwiga" is a Polish feminine name, which originates from the German name Hedwig, which stands for battle, fight in Old German. There's nothing about witch-mothers to that name, at any rate. Now why on earth is this name used, in such context, and in singular form (plural is jadwigi) ?
(Yeah I know that Polish grammar is a b**ch, but there are more than few Polish Paizonians who would be happy to help out with that.)
As a gamer from Poland I am used to the long tradition of Western RPG designers taking random names from Slavic languages and using them entirely out of place and context (see -> White Wolf's use of the name "szlachta" in oWoD). Paizo, you really should know better ! Am I honestly supposed to tell my players that there a bunch of jadwigi ruling that place, which in Polish will sound no different than "a bunch of Josephines/Marys/insert female name here" ?
How many times more will I see somebody grab a dictionary of some slavic lanuguage, take a name at random, look up some obscure connection (some speculate that the name Baba Yaga is derived from Jadwiga) and drop it into a gaming supplement just because it sounds cool to the English-speaking audience ?
The only time I saw a Polish name used the right way was in Wolf Baur's Frostmourn, where the monster Marzanna was pretty much based correctly on the folklore and myth.
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Gorbacz
Which of course means ... 'to circumcise you'.
Ouch.
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Typos and honest-to-good accidental misuse of a word (the villain of Sonic the Hedgehog games is called Dr. Robotnik, "robotnik" means worker in Polish) are one thing, using words just because they sound cool with no regard to grammar and their real meaning is another.
Still, dear Baron, you made me laugh on a bad day, kudos !
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I read today's blog about Whitethrone, the capital of Irrisen:
Home to the jadwiga ("children of the witch-mother"), the descendents of the witch Baba Yaga (...)"Jadwiga" is a Polish feminine name, which originates from the German name Hedwig, which stands for battle, fight in Old German. There's nothing about witch-mothers to that name, at any rate. Now why on earth is this name used, in such context, and in singular form (plural is jadwigi) ?
Yeowch! I have to agree. Grabbing a slavic dictionary and throwing names around is dangerous stuff. Far better to develop some program to generate names given parameters for a given country. Oh well, you are definitely a minority. However, since you can post on these boards you are being heard as loud as bells. Thank you for keeping the faith and raising the bar for designers out there.
Polish isn't the only language under "attack" by those durn Ammericcuuns. Take our two friendly neighbourhood iconics Lem and Harsk.
Harsk is Danish for rancid, rank or stale... okay, so I guess that's fairly fitting for a dwarf outdoorsman. ;-)
Lem either means hatch or trapdoor OR member/limb - in particular, it's also used as another word for a particular male anatomy part...
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Polish isn't the only language under "attack" by those durn Ammericcuuns. Take our two friendly neighbourhood iconics Lem and Harsk.
Harsk is Danish for rancid, rank or stale... okay, so I guess that's fairly fitting for a dwarf outdoorsman. ;-)
Lem either means hatch or trapdoor OR member/limb - in particular, it's also used as another word for a particular male anatomy part...
The nose?
The nose?Polish isn't the only language under "attack" by those durn Ammericcuuns. Take our two friendly neighbourhood iconics Lem and Harsk.
Harsk is Danish for rancid, rank or stale... okay, so I guess that's fairly fitting for a dwarf outdoorsman. ;-)
Lem either means hatch or trapdoor OR member/limb - in particular, it's also used as another word for a particular male anatomy part...
Only for gnomes...
The preview rocks! It redoubles my desire to see an AP set in Irrisen someday. There's just so many fresh ideas to explore in a setting like this...
I love the Illustration, it’s totally great
We've discussed this in the past in relation to numerous different languages (the last discussion I remember being deeply involved in was the one about using "asian-sounding" names and words), but my position is essentially the same:
People in Golarion don't speak Polish (or Chinese, or German, or whatever). They speak their own languages. Hence, they are not bound by the same grammatical rules.
The human mouth makes a limited number of sounds, and there are countless examples of phonetically identical words that have different meanings (and totally unrelated origins) in separate languages. In fact, you don't even have to have different languages to end up with weird and awkward word similarities. (I'm reminded of the British politician who recently riled people by properly using the word "niggardly," which despite sounding similar to a racial epithet in fact is 100% distinct etymologically.)
We frequently take inspiration from real-world languages, in terms of sounds and construction, but we often try to mix things up and intentionally change sounds/conjugations/etc. (This is in fact the same policy we take with any cultural trope - I frankly think a fantasy nation is MORE fun if it's not a straight-up analogue of Earth, but rather mixes and matches elements that evolved in very different regions in our world.) While we try to make sure the words we invent aren't provocatively close to a hilarious or offensive word in another language (neither of which, I note, apply to jadwiga), we're an English-language publication and honestly don't have the time or inclination to foresee every possible issue in every language. And in fact, having names and words that sound realistic (perhaps because they HAVE been used in some culture) add a certain verisimilitude to the world that you don't get if every dragon or peasant is named Var'axytrax'tyxlkrtyn.
If you don't like a name or a word we've created - change it. These books and everything contained within them become your sole property once you purchase them, and far be it from us to tell you how to name things. But the idea that we're somehow oppressing someone or "ought to know better" seems a bit ludicrous to me.
We've discussed this in the past in relation to numerous different languages (the last discussion I remember being deeply involved in was the one about using "asian-sounding" names and words), but my position is essentially the same:
People in Golarion don't speak Polish (or Chinese, or German, or whatever). They speak their own languages. Hence, they are not bound by the same grammatical rules.
The human mouth makes a limited number of sounds, and there are countless examples of phonetically identical words that have different meanings (and totally unrelated origins) in separate languages. In fact, you don't even have to have different languages to end up with weird and awkward word similarities. (I'm reminded of the British politician who recently riled people by properly using the word "niggardly," which despite sounding similar to a racial epithet in fact is 100% distinct etymologically.)
We frequently take inspiration from real-world languages, in terms of sounds and construction, but we often try to mix things up and intentionally change sounds/conjugations/etc. (This is in fact the same policy we take with any cultural trope - I frankly think a fantasy nation is MORE fun if it's not a straight-up analogue of Earth, but rather mixes and matches elements that evolved in very different regions in our world.) While we try to make sure the words we invent aren't provocatively close to a hilarious or offensive word in another language (neither of which, I note, apply to jadwiga), we're an English-language publication and honestly don't have the time or inclination to foresee every possible issue in every language. And in fact, having names and words that sound realistic (perhaps because they HAVE been used in some culture) add a certain verisimilitude to the world that you don't get if every dragon or peasant is named Var'axytrax'tyxlkrtyn.
If you don't like a name or a word we've created - change it. These books and everything contained within them become your sole property once you...
I agree, James. Not all laguages are the same.
Edit - Ya beat me to the punch, ye dratted Editor! ~GRINS~
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Heheh, I believe Mr. Sutter has closed the case on this thread. Speculate if you will, but that seems like a firm stance and well put. As a native english speaker, I think the names sound real cool, even though I have no idea what they mean. I would just hate to be playing this game at the United Nations, and that only happens....eer....it never happens.
James Stutter: Lot of good points but I will tag along to one thing. I may be wrong because of having other language as my native language but...
And in fact, having names and words that sound realistic (perhaps because they HAVE been used in some culture)
Words sound realistic when used in similar environment. For me Irrisen, Whitethrone and jadwiga sounds like words from 3 different stories.
We have Whitethrone made from combining 2 words. Its understandable and have meaning without translation.
Another word jadwiga witch also mean to have a meaning that was necessary to explain (for me its not consequent).
Perhaps I cling but this 3 mentioned words just sounds just to different to be part of one language.
Nevertheless in fantasy important is mood and ideas... names... like you said everyone can invent their owns with minimum work.
PS. I wonder if anyone ever made fantasy world with such particulars like Tolkien did for Middle Earth. It isn't my favourite fantasy world but its AFAIK the best fantasy world ever made.
If Jadwiga means fight in Polish, find an English or Russian female name that means the same.
I suggest Ailith, english female name meaning battle aswell, sounds good for a group of witches, summons negative supernatural connotations with the -lith part.
For the record, this is why I chose "jadwiga" rather than the designer's original suggested name:
And if you really have a problem with the name, is it so hard to change it? I'm sure there are many common English words and names that sound silly or even obscene to a native Polish speaker, and you'd change them if you encountered them....
If Jadwiga means fight in Polish, find an English or Russian female name that means the same.
I suggest Ailith, english female name meaning battle aswell, sounds good for a group of witches, summons negative supernatural connotations with the -lith part.
In Polish it means nothing (like most of now used Polish names witch have origins in other languages - mainly Latin, Greek, Hebrew and German). I'll quote Wikipedia:
"Jadwiga ... It originated from the old German Hedwig (compounded from hadu, "battle", and wig, "fight").".Hedwig can have any meaning in German or old German.
We have Whitethrone made from combining 2 words. Its understandable and have meaning without translation.
Another word jadwiga witch also mean to have a meaning that was necessary to explain (for me its not consequent).
Perhaps I cling but this 3 mentioned words just sounds just to different to be part of one language.
Given that Common isn't English any more than Hallit or Skald is English, the name "Whitethrone" is probably the English equivalent of the words "white" and "throne" in Common, Hallit, or Skald.
And remember that Irrisen existed as part of the Land of the Linnorm Kings before Baba Yaga arrived. Is Irrisen the name of that territory? The last Linnorm King to rule it? Who knows.
And as you're mentioned Tolkien, remember that he created linguistic origins for all of his character names... and then translated them from Quenya or Westron or whatever into English. So good old Samwise Gamgee's actual name is Banazîr Galbasi, and Bilbo Baggins' actual name is Bilba Labingi.
So be careful when you start looking too closely at names in fictional languages "translated" into the reader's language.
And remember that Irrisen existed as part of the Land of the Linnorm Kings before Baba Yaga arrived. Is Irrisen the name of that territory? The last Linnorm King to rule it? Who knows.
Good point. I have no more arguments against this names.
Fact that in one place some words/names have different origins and come from different sources is worth to remember when describing place for players. It brings more realism :)BTW. AFAIK Tolkien left notes for translators and suggested making hobbits as domestic as each translator can. Banazîr Galbasi, Bilba Labingi... :) I'll try to remember this forms :)
every dragon or peasant is named Var'axytrax'tyxlkrtyn.
This name means "Mairkurion sucks eggs" in Kangorian, and I am very offended that you would use it.
Seriously though, the point about verisimilitude is one I heartily agree with, and unless you are a linguistic-nut-genius like Tolkien, it's to Earth cultures that you naturally turn for inspiration.
Which brings me to SKR's post. I thought it was impossible for me to love SKR more, and after his post in this thread, I now see what an utter fool I was. FOOL.
If you don't like a name or a word we've created - change it. These books and everything contained within them become your sole property once you purchase them, and far be it from us to tell you how to name things. But the idea that we're somehow oppressing someone or "ought to know better" seems a bit ludicrous to me.
Let me head off any misconceptions regarding my post above, it was in no way intended as a valid criticism.
I, and the people I play with, have at most found the names of Harsk and Lem chuckleworthy, especially Lem, in an entirely sophomorically (is that a word?) way.So, let me reiterate, carry on with using whatever naming convention you find most relevant, we'll either use it, chuckle at it or change it if it's too weird or unpronouncable to us. :-)
Hey mon, me gonna sue your old grandmama ifn she don't change her name which I have undeh dee mo bettah legal protection, mon!
Look me up, mon. I'm an American company.
It still doesn't get to the level of amusement of the "Black Lore of Moil" feat.
Evil necromancers who gain extra power via circumcision? Who knew?
The only time I saw a Polish name used the right way was in Wolf Baur's Frostmourn, where the monster Marzanna was pretty much based correctly on the folklore and myth.
Gorbacz, I recently wrote a trickster story entitled "The Princess and the Psotnik" that's set during the reign of Wladislaw the Short (whose queen was--wait for it--Jadwiga.)* It incorporates several elements of Polish folklore. A friend who's a professional editor suggested that I expand it to a novel, and the idea stuck. I've got a couple of projects currently in the pipeline, but once those manuscripts are finished I'll be heading back into medieval Poland.
My goal is to have the novel completed and, gods willing, published by June 2011. I hope to attend Miêdzynarodowy Festiwal Fantastyki (XVIII Festival of Fantasy & Science Fiction) in Nidzica, which is a few miles from the town where my father was born. By then, I also hope to be reasonably fluent.
So. Needless to say, I'll be very interested to see how Irrisen shapes up. :)
*(This Queen Jadwiga was the great-grandmother of "King Jadwiga," the queen regnant whom Sean Reynolds referenced as inspiration for the term "jadwiga" as the ruling class of Irrisen.)
It still doesn't get to the level of amusement of the "Black Lore of Moil" feat.
Evil necromancers who gain extra power via circumcision? Who knew?
Oy gevalt.
Also, as a Polish-American I was vastly amused by SciFi Network's decision to change their name to "Syfy."
Speaking of which, it's a never a waste of time to run a made-up fantasy name though Google. A quick perusal of the Urban Dictionary would not be amiss, either.
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Contributor
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Speaking of which, it's a never a waste of time to run a made-up fantasy name though Google. A quick perusal of the Urban Dictionary would not be amiss, either.
The #1 most likely redundancy of your completely original fantasy name is a pharmaceutical. Seriously.
And now I'll also always check the Urban Dictionary, although I tend to pick historical names and change the spelling. Or not.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Along these lines...
According to him, 'pooka' in Russian is akin to 'fart' in English. Now try watching Anastasia knowing this...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[The #1 most likely redundancy of your completely original fantasy name is a pharmaceutical. Seriously.
Two bits from my own games/writing.
We were playing Sunless Citadel, and the DM wanted to replace Shaterspike with something more fitting our Paladin. So when asked it's name, he stammered and came up with 'Nardil'.
Since we'd been named 'kobold friends' by the kobolds, we'd announce the Paladin as 'Heron Kobold-friend. Wielder of the ledgendary sword Nardil. No, not Narsil, that's the other guy.'
Then we found out Nardil is a sedative...
Also my Morph rogue I write about is named Tis'neva (Tis for short), it actually is from a Pharmaceutical company, Aventis. :-)
The #1 most likely redundancy of your completely original fantasy name is a pharmaceutical. Seriously.
::nods:: Not just in fantasy, either. I loved the scene from "The Sopranos" in which Christopher Maltesanti weighs in on the upcoming wedding of a rival don's daughter, Allegra*. "Who names their kid after an allergy medicine?"
*(Meaning: Bright, happy. In music, "allegro" is a tempo marking signifying quick and cheerful.)
I just want to draw to your attention that we continue to get new threads like this one, plus the resurrection of old ones, a fact which is a sign unto Chief Jacobs.
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I just want to draw to your attention that we continue to get new threads like this one, plus the resurrection of old ones, a fact which is a sign unto Chief Jacobs.
+1
More Grandma Boneylegs!!!
I don't know the authenticity of this, as it is in fact from wikipedia, but here is a bit of wikipedia's entry on the etymology of the name Baba Yaga:
The name of Baba Yaga is composed of two elements. Baba means "old woman, grandmother" used in most Slavic languages; it derives from child language and often has pejorative connotations. The second element, yaga, is from Proto-Slavic ;, which is probably related to Lithuanian ingis 'lazybones, sluggard', Old Norse ekki 'pain', and Old English inca 'question, scruple, doubt; grievance, quarrel'. It has also been suggested that Yaga may be a diminutive of the feminine name Jadwiga.
Read the last line? It implies Baba Yaga translates roughly to "Grandma Hedwig" so, making it more likely for the associated followers of the Baba herself to refer to themselves as "Jadwiga"
I don't know if this is what the writers had in mind or if wikipedia's etymology is up to snuff- but there is an explaination.
For me Irrisen, Whitethrone and jadwiga sounds like words from 3 different stories.
This happens in real life all the time. I live in Rhode Island, so named because the coastline reminded a Dutch sea captain of the Greek island of Rhodes. Towns around here tend to reflect English place names--Bristol, Portsmouth, Greenwich--but a lot of places in Rhode Island and southern Massachusetts retain (or at least reflect) names given them by the Narragansett and Wampanoag nations: Pawtucket, Aquidneck, Chappaquiddick, Nantucket, Seekonk. On the face of things, there isn't much linguistic logic to Rhode Island, but the answers to these seeming contradictions are easily found in the pages of history.
Few fantasy writers or world-builders have Tolkien's background in linguistics, and few worlds have a linguistic logic in their deep structure to rival Middle Earth. That said, I think Irrisen nomenclature will make more sense as we learn more about the history and culture of this corner of Golarion.
As SKR pointed out, Irrisen might have been named after the last Linnorm chieftain to rule that area before Baba Yaga seized it. The Land of the Linnorm Kings is based on a "viking" culture, and Scandinavian names are frequently patronymic: Johnson, Erikson, and so on. "Irrisen" could very well be an adaptation of "Irrik's Son," or some such. This sort of thing happens all the time. Place names tend to mellow out and blend together. Boston, for example, is a shortened form of "Saint Botolph's Town."
So, yeah. I don't see a problem with Irrisen names.
Ah, Rhode Island, the home of TAPS
Ah, Rhode Island, the home of TAPS
::nods:: There are a surprising number of ghost-hunting organizations in RI. A gal in my book group invited one of them to speak at our October meeting last year, just to mix things up a bit. The older of the two men who came was a cop who started out with TAPS and left before they went to video, and the younger guy was . . . very enthusiastic. :)
For me Irrisen, Whitethrone and jadwiga sounds like words from 3 different stories.This happens in real life all the time. I live in Rhode Island, so named because the coastline reminded a Dutch sea captain of the Greek island of Rhodes. Towns around here tend to reflect English place names--Bristol, Portsmouth, Greenwich--but a lot of places in Rhode Island and southern Massachusetts retain (or at least reflect) names given them by the Narragansett and Wampanoag nations: Pawtucket, Aquidneck, Chappaquiddick, Nantucket, Seekonk. On the face of things, there isn't much linguistic logic to Rhode Island, but the answers to these seeming contradictions are easily found in the pages of history.
Louisiana is the same way. We have a strang mix of place names, traditions, and local legends thanks the mix of Native American, German, Spanish, French, Cajun, English (American), African, and Haitian cultures.
I actually like the mix of different names. Considering what I grew up with, it sounds right.
Sound reasoning.
Of course, the only way for Paizo to really settle this chronic linguistic discontent over Irrisen is to give us more names to put the ones already revealed into the sort of context to which you allude. The sooner they do this, and the more sizable the content, the more quickly the looming threat of linguistic-inspired rioting will subside. ;P
Sound reasoning.Of course, the only way for Paizo to really settle this chronic linguistic discontent over Irrisen is to give us more names to put the ones already revealed into the sort of context to which you allude. The sooner they do this, and the more sizable the content, the more quickly the looming threat of linguistic-inspired rioting will subside. ;P
Linguistic-inspired rioting can be ugly; one side throws to-MAY-toes, the other side lobs to-MAH-toes....
Linguistic-inspired rioting can be ugly; one side throws to-MAY-toes, the other side lobs to-MAH-toes....Sound reasoning.Of course, the only way for Paizo to really settle this chronic linguistic discontent over Irrisen is to give us more names to put the ones already revealed into the sort of context to which you allude. The sooner they do this, and the more sizable the content, the more quickly the looming threat of linguistic-inspired rioting will subside. ;P
LOL - Just as long as the riot does not scale up to the throwing of po-tay-toes and the lobbing of po-tah-toes. Those spuds hurt... I'd rather they call the whole thing off!
Linguistic-inspired rioting can be ugly; one side throws to-MAY-toes, the other side lobs to-MAH-toes....Sound reasoning.Of course, the only way for Paizo to really settle this chronic linguistic discontent over Irrisen is to give us more names to put the ones already revealed into the sort of context to which you allude. The sooner they do this, and the more sizable the content, the more quickly the looming threat of linguistic-inspired rioting will subside. ;P
Unbaked potatoes are worse than tomatoes, but oysters can cut!
Real fun is when one of your German teachers is a Berliner and the other is Bavarian. I will silently say "reesh teesh" in my brain for the rest of my life, while seeing an old, grim and gaunt German professor scowling and shaking his head.
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The only time I saw a Polish name used the right way was in Wolf Baur's Frostmourn, where the monster Marzanna was pretty much based correctly on the folklore and myth.Gorbacz, I recently wrote a trickster story entitled "The Princess and the Psotnik" that's set during the reign of Wladislaw the Short (whose queen was--wait for it--Jadwiga.)* It incorporates several elements of Polish folklore. A friend who's a professional editor suggested that I expand it to a novel, and the idea stuck. I've got a couple of projects currently in the pipeline, but once those manuscripts are finished I'll be heading back into medieval Poland.
My goal is to have the novel completed and, gods willing, published by June 2011. I hope to attend Miêdzynarodowy Festiwal Fantastyki (XVIII Festival of Fantasy & Science Fiction) in Nidzica, which is a few miles from the town where my father was born. By then, I also hope to be reasonably fluent.
So. Needless to say, I'll be very interested to see how Irrisen shapes up. :)
Holy moly, how did I miss this reply ? Great ! Elaine, I am very interested in this novel. Usually when fantasy authors target Eastern Europe as a source of inspiration they head east towards Russia and overlook us (and the Czech, the Balkan nations, heck even the Baltics states). So yeah, more love for our folklore never hurts.
And it would be great to meet you in person at the MFF !