I'm thinking in particular of creating, say, a lighter effect to light a candle or a pipe. You could also use that to start a fire, though. I think it's cool to visualize a bard lighting his pipe after a performance, but what if he decides to light up the curtains while he's at it, and burn the place down?
Is the idea that it can't do damage enough? I like to think so. You can light a pipe or candle (something made to be lit), but setting fire to something in order to burn a place down shouldn't work, IMHO. You'd need a torch, and the spell won't light a torch. Would it light a flask of oil? A torch could. Maybe it just can't create a flame at all.
I'm interested in your interpretations of this spell. What creative purposes have you seen it used for?
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I have an old list of cantrips from 1st and 2nd edition. If it is on that list, and it's not a cantrip in 3.x (or pathfinder) then prestidigitation can do it for me.
This includes:
Warm/Cool (food) Flavor (food) Small noises (burp/fart/squeak), Small flashes of light (small firecrackers, sparkler sort of stuff), puffs of smoke, starting a fire, cleaning clothing, dirtying clothing, electrical arcs (no damage) pile stuff up (up to 1 Lb weight) scatter stuff, et al.
If a player has an interesting idea on how to use it to get a small (+1~+2) bonus on a skill use I'll generally allow it. typical stuff includes making their hair stand on end, possibly look like it is fire, arcing lightning between their hands, causing a blade too look very sharp -- all for intimidation checks. Keeping an area clean, erasing smudge marks, giving a nice (temporary) line to write on for straight lines for linguistics checks. Warming and flavoring food for cooking checks, and so on.
Good suggestions by the others, if you simply wanted to go with something to light a pipe/cigarette/cigar/whatever, you could have it create a small match, already lit that you can use to light one easily burned item (paper as well). You wouldn't be setting the place on fire without some time and alot of help.
It can do a lot of generally trivial things but generally nothing really earthshattering. For example it can probably be used to assemble a ship in a bottle with the bottle closed but it couldn't turn the tumblers in a lock to open a door.
As for your example of the flame. I would say it can do anything a candle can do. Unless curtains are soaked in oil it takes a bit of time to set them on fire.
It is very nice for keeping robes and such clean. It's nice when you go adventuring and everyone is covered in blood and has foul clothes but you are wearing a clean and pressed robe.
My other favorite 'trivial spell' is unseen servant. It's great for opening and closing doors or grabbing unattended objects when people don't expect it. So if the fighter disarms someone you can direct it to grab the item on your next move and carry it to you.
Unseen Servant is the fighter's second best friend.
You need someone to help you get into and out of that full plate and an unseen servant can do it, and set up camp, and possibly start a fire for you, then do your laundry (well the fighter's not that you couldn't with prestidigitation, but you know she does have a 16 charisma, and no sense in rushing things ;D), before cleaning up in the morning since you are caster level 10 and it lasts an hour per level.
Unseen servant is great because it lasts all day and is pretty open ended in what it can do.
However it has had its strength dropped down to 2, which is limiting too. Still very useful.
Based on your post I'm guessing you would dissapprove of the way it's been used in campaigns I've played in (including things I myself did.)
That little flame thing? Beautiful. Burning through rope bindings, super heating and weakening chain links, welding a steel door shut.
Yes, in my games it has been a torch. It won't deal damage to living things, but the flame is very real.
Yeah, I don't see it as a cutting torch or an arc-welder. It makes other skills and spells moot.
It would light a candle, a pipe, a sheet of paper, a pitched torch, or other things that are easy to light. Maybe a hay bale or some curtains, in 5 rounds. It's weaker than a bic lighter, for sure.
I like the "lit match" idea. A brief flame, good for lighting easy things, but it can't weld metal doors shut. It lasts a few seconds, and isn't hot enough or oxygenated enough to cause a blaze. Too strong for a 0-level spell.
You can light a pipe or candle (something made to be lit), but setting fire to something in order to burn a place down shouldn't work, IMHO.
I think that would work fine. Most things don't immediately burst into flames if put to fire; only those that are designed to. If you want to make a camp fire, you need kindling, and you need enough of it to keep the small flame going until the bigger sticks catch fire.
Prestidigitation is a great spell but you need to understand what it is and isn't.
First it can make a lesser effect of any of the other cantrips but has a range of 10'. If you want to make a noise behind the monster Prestidigitation won't work you wanted ghost sound. If you make a light it will be very faint and only illuminate you. If you want to pick something up heavier than 1 lbs this won't work.
If you want to distract an opponent you might be able to pull somthing off but all you can do is direct it at you.
This is a fund spell that will salt your food, chill your drink, turn the pages of the book you are reading, clean mud off you shoes, and keep the familiar entertained with card tricks. A cleaver mage can pull all sorts of things with this but not as much as some one with a great slight of hand.
It seems like it was just kind of a lazy attempt to not have to come up with more spells.
Saying 'use your imagination', with a few specific stipulations in what the spell can do mechanics wise is lazy game design? I would argue the other way and say that it fosters originality and creativity.
It seems like it was just kind of a lazy attempt to not have to come up with more spells.Saying 'use your imagination', with a few specific stipulations in what the spell can do mechanics wise is lazy game design? I would argue the other way and say that it fosters originality and creativity.
I'm with Riatin here. We don't need an all inclusive list, which by its nature excludes a lot of flexibility. Maybe I'm just an old first edition curmudgeon who doesn't like when additional mechanics get in the way of interactive storytelling.
At my table, prestidigitation can no pretty much anything that is roleplaying flavor. Lighting a pipe sure no problem. Doing something that would normally require a skill check or duplicates another spell won't work. The example of welding a door shut would be a no go--that duplicates hold portal.
Sure, that can be fine line some time but your players have to recognize it is a 0-level spell.
It seems like it was just kind of a lazy attempt to not have to come up with more spells.Saying 'use your imagination', with a few specific stipulations in what the spell can do mechanics wise is lazy game design? I would argue the other way and say that it fosters originality and creativity.I'm with Riatin here. We don't need an all inclusive list, which by its nature excludes a lot of flexibility. Maybe I'm just an old first edition curmudgeon who doesn't like when additional mechanics get in the way of interactive storytelling.
At my table, prestidigitation can no pretty much anything that is roleplaying flavor. Lighting a pipe sure no problem. Doing something that would normally require a skill check or duplicates another spell won't work. The example of welding a door shut would be a no go--that duplicates hold portal.
Sure, that can be fine line some time but your players have to recognize it is a 0-level spell.
+1
I like that you have the cantrip that does all the trivial stuff, then all the other cantrips that can actually be used for something.
Prestidigitation can do pretty much what a candle can do. So if you think a candle could weld a door shut, then it's all good. I'd probably shoot that one down. Actually welding requires serious heat, way beyond what ...
hmmm
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
I could have sword it said it 'produced a small flame' but it doesn't even list that in the spell (nor did 3.5). So ultimately any sort of flames you do with it is pure GM kindness.
Regardless, my characters would have better luck welding with a torch which is to say... not much.
Edit: I'd like to add that the prestidigitation torch sealing the door is a rather rare circumstance. More often than not doors are wood. Is it that bad to let the little 'do everything minor' spell be occasionally useful as a tool?
If a player is too lazy to figure out a simple solution I'm not going to bend the rules to help them. If they didn't memorize hold portal, and they didn't bring a rogue to jam the lock, and they didn't bring an iron spike or a dagger, or any of a bunch of other ways to jam the doorway shut... then I'm sure not going to let them use prestidigitation to do it.
If they are in a genuine bind through no fault of their own and someone comes up with a reasonably creative fix then I bend the rules.
In other words, prestidigitation is not the new 'sonic screwdriver?'
No, but if there's a sonic screwdriver out there, I'd like to see it!
Or maybe hear it...
A list of the 1.5e cantrips can be found here
As mentioned in another thread, I've added in some cantrips that Gygax did for Relics & Rituals. One of theme is "Spark" which is the 3.X update of the 1.5 Firefinger. Spark lets you light candles, torches, and yes, small combustibles like paper or drapes. Basically, if you could light it with a match, then spark can set it on fire. If not, then not.
I generally rule that Prestidigitation can do what other cantrips can't, or can do it less well. Most of my characters use it for cleaning. Last night, before presenting the magical trident to the queen, they used prestidigitation to clean it, because a legendary chimera had been sitting on it for 600 years and it had been grimed with goat-lion-dragon scat. There's a specific Clean cantrip in Relics & Rituals, but I was willing to grandfather in Prestidigitation on this one since they'd been using it for that before, though I'll probably get them the ruling in downtime.
I think letting Prestidigitation do a half-assed job of any other cantrip is probably a good one. Light and Dancing Lights will give actual light. Prestidigitation can make something glow briefly then flicker out. It can give something a cursory dusting but not a real deep cleaning. It can light a pipe, but not a full candelabra. Etc.
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Cleaning things seems to be the number one use of Prestidigitation, in play. But I've also used it to make candle-intensity light, or to start small fires (again, candle-intensity).
I also use Sean Reynolds Energy Cantrips, and some from Monte Cook's Books of Eldritch Might.
Could it be used to create a small holographic image of, say, a monster you're describing to someone who's never seen it?
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Could it be used to create a small holographic image of, say, a monster you're describing to someone who's never seen it?
As long as it comes nowhere near Minor Image in utility (and remains flickering, translucent, two-dimensional, less than a meter across and / or otherwise utterly incapable of fooling someone into thinking that it's a real thing), sure.
Might need a craft or profession (artist) check to depict something you've never really seen (such as a imaginary beast you are describing in a story) or an appropriate knowledge check (arcana for dragons, nature for animals, engineering for constructs, religion for undead, etc) if you haven't personally seen such a critter.
Could it be used to create a small holographic image of, say, a monster you're describing to someone who's never seen it?
Yes but it only works for about 30 seconds, then stops and repeats itself "obi wan kenobi you are my only hope"
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Could it be used to create a small holographic image of, say, a monster you're describing to someone who's never seen it?Yes but it only works for about 30 seconds, then stops and repeats itself "obi wan kenobi you are my only hope"
Still, it could change the fate of a galaxy! (And also kick off a creepy incestuous infatuation between a brother and sister, but the less said about that, the better.)
Actually, the 1st ed 2-D'llusion was a wonderful cantrip for exactly this reason. My Illusionist used it for Power Point presentations to explain the answer to riddles to sphinxes, to change the images seen reflected in mirrors ("He's a vampire! Look, he has no reflection!"), and occasionally to open amazing magical gateways to other planes (or at least that's what people thought).
Prestidigitation is less good than this, but can still do it in a cheesy fashion.
Something the characters in my game kept threatening to do: Prestidigitation used to color (more specifically uncolor) the gnome bard's hair during the night. Instant Bleach! Of course (1) they never did it, he was a little too crazy to mess around with like that; and (2) it would only have lasted an hour, and then all hades would have broken out.
Actually, the 1st ed 2-D'llusion was a wonderful cantrip for exactly this reason. My Illusionist used it for Power Point presentations to explain the answer to riddles to sphinxes, to change the images seen reflected in mirrors ("He's a vampire! Look, he has no reflection!"), and occasionally to open amazing magical gateways to other planes (or at least that's what people thought).
Prestidigitation is less good than this, but can still do it in a cheesy fashion.
Not even in a cheesy fashion, AFAIC. It can't help a caster to explain a sphinx's riddle (other than repeating it), reveal a vampire through an illusionary mirror, or make anyone believe that you just opened a portal. That's auto-fail, IMHO.
2e was different (cantrips took 1st level slots), but the prestidigitation of 3.5 and PF is a really weak spell, if you're trying to fool anyone and make them believe your 0-level illusion.
Even the Star Wars hologram would be too specific. You might show a human female, repeating something you wrote down, but you wouldn't get a recognizeable face from the spell, even if you have seen her. To show your viewer what Leia actually looks like, you'd need a much stronger spell that relies on your memory of her image, and it would still be imperfect without a very strong spell.
My 2 cp.
I've got a dual class sorc/rogue who's chalky white skin is an issue with hiding. Prestidigitation can act as a quick skin dye, turning my mighty-whitey to jet black. (not directly adding to stealth, but better than spending ten minutes applying camo paint.)
The other slightly more atrocious application was a Vanara (I'm looking for a boon to play this in PFS) Alchemist. He keeps his bombs in pouches running down the backs of his thighs, and uses presti to coat his bombs in a slimy, foul-smelling, brown, gooey.....you get the picture. He's an exploding monkey poop thrower.
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To me, the most important use of Prestidigitation has always been fluff. You're a wizard in a high-magic seeing; you should be able to have sparkly bits fly about your head, smoke rings in the shape of ships, vague impressive sounding echoes behind your voice, etc. All that, plus a cleaning service, has been what I always wanted Prestidigitation for.
My son asked me this very question in the game last night. Now I can direct him here.
Also, Shadowmage, you are a god. An icky, smelly god.
Prestidgitation's effects with fire have to be in principle weaker than the cantrip Spark which is specifically for setting flammable things on fire. Lighting a pipe is pretty much the upper end for that spell.
I don't, however, think that we have reached the upper end of poop applications yet...
We had a guy playing a Gnome with Prestidigitation follow around the Half-Orc Barbarian and every time they ate he changed the flavor of the food to chicken, and the flavor of the drink to milk.
Everything tasted like milk and chicken.
Barb rage on the serving girls is really a sight to see.
I can't wait to do this.
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Am I the only one who has noticed with some players when you say something like "That isn't described as a use" for something they want to do, they scream "THAT IS JUST THE FLUFF, DON'T NERF ME!" while when they come to you with readings of uses of spells far beyond mechanical description, if you say "fluff" they scream "DON'T STIFLE MY CREATIVITY!"
It is almost as if there is no logical center in their argument, and they are just trying to find was to rationalize getting exactly what they want, how they want it.
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Am I the only one who has noticed with some players when you say something like "That isn't described as a use" for something they want to do, they scream "THAT IS JUST THE FLUFF, DON'T NERF ME!" while when they come to you with readings of uses of spells far beyond mechanical description, if you say "fluff" they scream "DON'T STIFLE MY CREATIVITY!"
It is almost as if there is no logical center in their argument, and they are just trying to find was to rationalize getting exactly what they want, how they want it.
I agree with you here. Being creative with defined effects and b#&~#&%!ting the effects are not the same thing. One of those things disregards the fact that you are playing a game and moves to mother-may-I. The other is just awesome.
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The last mission I was on (Masks of the Living God), I used it to tell time. Changing something's color and it lasts for an hour? Cast it every time the color changes back for a clock. As good as an hourglass. The guards were not pleased with the Gnome's sparkly purble robes (formerly plain white) with "Razmir!" spelled in multible languages across it.
The gnome also used it herself to turn the Rok she was flying on pink earlier. Just to mess with some boat pirates. Distracted them well enough.
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One of my favourite uses is to use the 'dirty an object' part, combined with the skill: craft(sketching), to make 'charcoal' sketches!
As well as being a cool RP thing to do, and earning some coin, it's a great way to make friends with an NPC; by drawing a flattering portrait and giving it to them as a gift! Also, 'Have you seen this man?'
This was inspired by a real life meeting. When I was eight I went to Cub Scouts. One week a guy turned up with a lined notepad and a ball-point pen. We thought he was a reporter or something. He asked me to sit still for a moment, and he would draw a picture of me. In less than one minute he showed me a picture of myself! I was amazed and awestruck! I've never been able to draw like that, and I thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen!
Prestidgitation's effects with fire have to be in principle weaker than the cantrip Spark which is specifically for setting flammable things on fire. Lighting a pipe is pretty much the upper end for that spell.
Given the OP is from September 2009, which I believe pre-dates the Advanced Player's Guide, spark wasn't an option back then. It is of course the solution to all your pipe-lighting and firestarting needs now.
However, I am confused as to why people think prestidigitation can do anything with fire anyway, then or now. I don't see anything in its description that says it can light a pipe or anything to that effect:
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
The closest it seems to get to anything to do with light or fire is that it can "warm" something, which doesn't say "ignite" to me. And actually, now that spark exists, it definitely CAN'T light anything, because "prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects" and being able to ignite a pipe or other small bit of tinder would essentially duplicate spark, even if at a less powerful level.
Now of course, were it not for spark, I can see someone deciding that such a thing could be included in "simple magical effects" but that's entirely up for interpretation.
ANYWAY.
As to creative uses of prestidigitation, I think my favorite use was in a scenario where some evil cultists were using magic arrows to herd a bulette toward a town, to try to force the enraged bulette to attack the villagers.
Player: What is a bulette's favorite food?
GM: Uh, everything, really, but I guess what it likes best is sheep.
Player: I use prestidigitation to make the cultist smell like a sheep.
((Note: technically I think they did it to his cloak, since you have to affect 1lb of nonliving material.))
Later, ghost sound was added to have a baaaing noise emit from the cultist as well.
This makes me want a cantrip named "Ghost Smell"...Player: I use prestidigitation to make the cultist smell like a sheep.
Later, ghost sound was added to have a baaaing noise emit from the cultist as well.
That and create beer I believe are the hallmarks of Magic Academy frat houses. ;)
A Paladin shouldn't fall for using prestidigitation i mean...oh wait wrong thread!
As a 2e player I've pretty much settled on the idea that prestidigitation covers all cantrips from 2e unearthed arcana that arent already layed out as cantrips in pathfinder.
So thats... Uh...
Clean, color, freshen, gather, polish, shine, warm, chill, hairy, dilapatory (unhairy), dry, flavor, spice, salt, and firefinger. Between clean color shine polish hairy and dilapitory our party stays clean and lookin sharp when there's no bath house nearby or coin is short. Firefinger takes care of the torch lighting. Flavor spice dry and salt takes care of turning that elk or rabbit into travel rations. Warm and chill are good at the dinner table...
At least those are the ones that I care about using... Most games I'm in now are less about such flavor, but I keep these at the ready in case I get a chance for the group to care (haha, freudian slipped and spelled that 'chare') about flavor instead of just haste spells.
There are ones like burp and tickle that I never much cared about... Maybe if my mage had more chances to amuse the local village children... Of course if having fun with the local kids does come up theres still plenty of fun to be had with hairy, dilapitory and firefinger. And the locals might love you if you spent a few more clean cantrips on their kids.
But yeah. Based on this model I love letting prestidigitation take up one of my cantrip slots. Some gms might even call it an 'overpowered cantrip' but as long as its clear you cant abuse firefinger or hairy in combat it's pretty harmless and quite colorful.