So... Cheliax. I have a friend who bought the huge Golarion campaign setting book (at least partly on my advice.) He likes it, but there's one place that bothers him that I expected he'd love, (since he loves Devils as villains,) and that's Cheliax. It disrupts his suspension of disbelief, that a large country would openly worship Asmodeus and that devils would work their ways visibly instead of staying hidden and unknown to all but their conspirators.
He says, in a world where evil is a recognizable force of the cosmos, a nation which sides with cosmic manifestations of Law and Evil and is obvious about it, is just jumping up and down, waving a big flag reading, "Oy! High-level, Good-aligned Heroes! We consort with the forces of Darkness! Come destroy us! Free our repressed peasants!"
Of course, in his opinion, if players' characters can go from 1-16th level over the course of one or two years of in-game time (see the adventure paths,) there should be NPCs who do the same; and any D&D world that doesn't take 15-20th level heroes into account when describing the status quo of nations breaks down for him.
I like Cheliax. I like the idea of a tyrannical country as a story setting in a fantasy setting, and one that gets its power from devillish compacts out in the open, is an interesting texture. I've tried to argue the case to my friend, but, pointing out that most of Golarion tends more toward neutral than good is the only justification he's bought (begrudgingly,) so far.
Anyone else have any good arguements why devils & diabolists can get away with not hiding their affiliation in a world where Scry and Slay exists? Why staying on the down-low isn't the smarter option for the master manipulators of Hell?
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For the same reason the Empire ruled in Star Wars? You need large numbers of people to take on a nation. The trouble with Scry and Die on the head is that another devil props up another puppet on the throne. And killing pit fiends isn't so easy for an NPC with just the elite array.
Edit: And if he needs more, let me go real-life. What happened when the US invaded Iraq? What would happen if a SEAL team was sent into North Korea and killed Kim Jong-il? See the parallels?
The same reason self-righteous real-world nations ought not to go around vaporizing the leadership of countries they disagree with.
Cheliax is run by devils because those devils gave the nation comparative peace, wealth, and stability after a period of great turmoil. If you march in and kill all of the devils, you had best come prepared to give the people still greater peace, wealth and stability. Otherwise, watch powerlessly as the people oust you to get their devils back.
If you do a "good thing" by slaying otherworldly evil, and yet the masses cannot put food on the table or meet their previous standard of living, I would not expect them to thank you for it.
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What TriO said. In the Cheliax companion, the House of Thrune is doing a better job of regicide than any PCs ever could. Yet there is always someone to fill the gap. It's one thing for PCs or heroes to overthrow theevil ruler of a city like Korvosa. However to overthrow the largest nation in the known world is quite another. To continue the Star War analogy, even after Luke killed the Emperor, it took many years of fighting for the Rebellion to restore the Republic. Even then there are still holdouts of mperial forces throughout the galaxy.
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Well however they got there, House Thrune are the current leaders of Cheliax and have the support of the government, the armed forces, the Hellknights and more or less the nobility. I'd have to read it when I get home but the impression I got from the companion on Cheliax and Part 1 of CoT is that it's very rare for devils to just walk about town, even Egorian. Also, Cheliax has not forbid other religions as I recall, not even Iomedae. As for high level do-gooders, there aren't many. Golarion is just now stabilizing after the onset of the Age of Lost Omens and the early impression was that Player Characters are the new movers and shakers. And if there are High Level do-gooders like in the Forgotten Realms, just look to Elminster's sidebar on basically this topic from the 3rd ed FRCS.
Edit: Here's an interesting idea. What if as part of his helping jail Rovagug, Asmodeus made an agreement with the other Deities. If he ever could get an entire culture/nation to openly worship him, the other deities would not interfere...y'know just so I help you lockup this angry nihilstic god? I mean c'mon *grin* who would ever be stupid enough to openly pledge their and their country's fealty to me? :)
Why would the lawful goods be more concerned about Cheliax than Galt... or any of the places overrun by horrible monsters?
At least Cheliax is a fairly orderly place, and that's something at least.
Part of what I'm asking is for arguements for why it isn't a Bad Idea to advertise that you're Lawful Evil to anyone strong enough and Knights Templar enough to try and remove the devil perching openly in the middle of the civilized world.
Plausible deniability and all that.
Maybe I should have chosen a different title, but "Impeach Asmodeus" just sort of lept out at me.
I know the Cheliax diplomats probably don't open ambassadorial conversations with "Hi, we're Lawful Evil, and we'd like to work with you to build a better world," but disguising their devils from the get-go seems like it'd help them when they say, "Evil, what do you mean? We're one of the greatest civilized nations in the world. I do hope you don't intend slander, good sir."
Edit: Here's an interesting idea. What if as part of his helping jail Rovagug, Asmodeus made an agreement with the other Deities. If he ever could get an entire culture/nation to openly worship him, the other deities would not interfere...y'know just so I help you lockup this angry nihilstic god? I mean c'mon *grin* who would ever be stupid enough to openly pledge their and their country's fealty to me? :)
That idea tickles me quite a bit, actually.
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Part of what I'm asking is for arguements for why it isn't a Bad Idea to advertise that you're Lawful Evil to anyone strong enough and Knights Templar enough to try and remove the devil perching openly in the middle of the civilized world.
Plausible deniability and all that.
Maybe I should have chosen a different title, but "Impeach Asmodeus" just sort of lept out at me.
Well, in Cheliax's case it's because they are powerful enough to fend off such an attack. Look at what happened to the Knights Templar, to use your example. Early on the rusades were a military success. However, the Crusaders never won the hearts and minds of the people and in the end the Crusader Kingdoms were wiped off the map by the very Muslims they sought to "liberate" the land from. Cheliax is the same way, the crusaders might have limited success, but unless they can stabalize things and restore prosperity pretty quick, they will end up being wiped away. Sure House hrune might be gone, but some other noble family also beholden to Asmodeus will just take their place.
On a more personal scale, it depends on where you are if it's a bad idea to advertise your alignment. Of course, in game, you don't actually say, I am Lawful Evil. You act a certain way. Behavior can be surpressed, especially if you are already self disciplined like a Lawful character. If you only indulge your darker impulses in th dark of night when no one else is around to see, unless someone is walking around with Detect Evil on all the time, the rest of your party, tiown, order, etc. may never know. Take Eberron as an example. The Church o the Silver Flame is a Lawful Good organization. However, through the judicious use of self-control and magic items, a Lawful Evil man has risen to be the second most powerful person in that organization. Many true believers even belive he should be running the whole show. I hope my ramblings help. It's what you get when you ask such questions of a social scientist.
What TriO said. In the Cheliax companion, the House of Thrune is doing a better job of regicide than any PCs ever could. Yet there is always someone to fill the gap. It's one thing for PCs or heroes to overthrow theevil ruler of a city like Korvosa. However to overthrow the largest nation in the known world is quite another. To continue the Star War analogy, even after Luke killed the Emperor, it took many years of fighting for the Rebellion to restore the Republic. Even then there are still holdouts of mperial forces throughout the galaxy.
Luke also didn't do it alone. He had a ready made govermental body that was until recently actually part of the Emperial goverment so they knew how to do some of the very basic things like get food to the people and keep the economy from collapse. If Luke, Han, and Chewy had done all this alone without the rebel alliance's help the end results could have been far greater hardships on the people then they suffered with the emperor in charge.
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[A] nation which sides with cosmic manifestations of Law and Evil and is obvious about it, is just jumping up and down, waving a big flag reading, "Oy! High-level, Good-aligned Heroes! We consort with the forces of Darkness! Come destroy us! Free our repressed peasants!"Talmandor, patron of Andoran, is an avoral celestial.
So based on your friend's argument, he should also be arguing that Andoran is just jumping up and down, waving a big flag reading, "Oy! High-level villains! We consort with the forces of Light! Come destroy us! Oppress our free citizens!"
That's exactly what I thought when I read the thread.
And I've been trying to remember Talmandor's name for ages! Do you know where he's detailed?
Talmandor, patron of Andoran, is an avoral celestial.
So based on your friend's argument, he should also be arguing that Andoran is just jumping up and down, waving a big flag reading, "Oy! High-level villains! We consort with the forces of Light! Come destroy us! Oppress our free citizens!"
Yes! Indeed! And that's what high-level module or adventure paths are for, I guess.
To be fair and give a bit of background, the longest-running 3rd edition game my friend ran involved us being the "Protectors of the Crown" of a holy lawful-good king. We regularly faced off against the assassins and agents of secretly evil nations and/or political powers who frequently wanted to disable the kingdom by cutting off the serpent's head, so to speak.
Let me think about this:
I'm a mortal... maybe very very powerful, but still mortal.
Asmodeus is a God. Not just a God but a God with the entrity of Hell behind him and an almost infinite amount of time to figure out how to get what he wants, how to keep what he wants, and more importantly how to punish those that might think they can take what he has. A well known temper and the ability to follow through on it, in addition to several Devil Lords (almost gods in their own right) that answer to him as well.
Yeah I don't see me "over throwing" a major deity just like that.
He says, in a world where evil is a recognizable force of the cosmos, a nation which sides with cosmic manifestations of Law and Evil and is obvious about it, is just jumping up and down, waving a big flag reading, "Oy! High-level, Good-aligned Heroes! We consort with the forces of Darkness! Come destroy us! Free our repressed peasants!"
And where are peasants not repressed? How is the situation in Cheliax that different from hundreds of other places?
Plus, the government may be largely evil, but it's evil in ways that resist an easy topple by do-gooders. The government isn't dominated by just some badass madman, it's dominated by badass guys who build structures to keep themselves in power, that keep opposition divided and minor, and that metaphorically keep the trains running. It's modeled on 20th century totalitarianism with secret informants, militant propaganda, the whole works. And, assuming you don't let a lot of internal cracks to appear or don't blatantly get yourself into trouble with a coaltion of forces that can kick your butt, that model has longevity.
High Level Lawful Evils.
Let me think about this:
I'm a mortal... maybe very very powerful, but still mortal.
Asmodeus is a God. Not just a God but a God with the entrity of Hell behind him and an almost infinite amount of time to figure out how to get what he wants, how to keep what he wants, and more importantly how to punish those that might think they can take what he has. A well known temper and the ability to follow through on it, in addition to several Devil Lords (almost gods in their own right) that answer to him as well.
Yeah I don't see me "over throwing" a major deity just like that.
Alright, I'm bad at choosing thread-titles. I admit it. I'll try to stop being cute with them. n.n;
But he's not literally sitting on the Celish throne. A mortal is... maybe very very powerful, but still mortal.
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Let me think about this:
I'm a mortal... maybe very very powerful, but still mortal.
Asmodeus is a God. Not just a God but a God with the entrity of Hell behind him and an almost infinite amount of time to figure out how to get what he wants, how to keep what he wants, and more importantly how to punish those that might think they can take what he has. A well known temper and the ability to follow through on it, in addition to several Devil Lords (almost gods in their own right) that answer to him as well.
Yeah I don't see me "over throwing" a major deity just like that.
Alright, I'm bad at choosing thread-titles. I admit it. I'll try to stop being cute with them. n.n;
But he's not literally sitting on the Celish throne. A mortal is... maybe very very powerful, but still mortal.
And Asmodeus has dozens of replacements ready when they need to be used. Some might even need to be used before the current monarch is ready to relinquish the throne.
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I like Cheliax. I like the idea of a tyrannical country as a story setting in a fantasy setting, and one that gets its power from devillish compacts out in the open, is an interesting texture. I've tried to argue the case to my friend, but, pointing out that most of Golarion tends more toward neutral than good is the only justification he's bought (begrudgingly,) so far.Anyone else have any good arguements why devils & diabolists can get away with not hiding their affiliation in a world where Scry and Slay exists? Why staying on the down-low isn't the smarter option for the master manipulators of Hell?
1. The devils made it a law... It's now illegal to kill devils (or government officials, or maybe just certain kinds of devils), punishable by public execution of the devil killer and their blood relatives... And when the lowest level minions can't find a family, they'll just grab some guy in their stockade and his family to make an example of.
2. While Scry and Slay is an option, there are ways to counter this method of assassination...
A. From the simplest non-magical way listed on page 210 of the PRGCR "Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked." Brings new meaning to lead paint, eh? Heck, Cheliax could be sitting on top of a dozen lead mines and lead sheeting can still be worth more than silk per square foot.
B. Unhallow > Invisibility Purge. What's the point of an invisible scrying sensor when it only lasts 6 seconds and forewarns the guy you're about to try to assassinate?
C. After some named devil is killed, he's returned to his home plane right? Well, after that... He walks over to the Gate their followers made for them, after a lengthy interrogation and some paperwork, he returns to wrecking havoc on the material plane...
3. The devils innate lawfulness seems to provide tons of stability to Cheliax, why not the whole region? Cheliax is not just an acknowledge government, but many neighboring countries could have emissaries and embassies there. As someone that lives in one of these neighboring countries, any adventurers attacking people in Cheliax could be seen as a declaration of war. Cheliax has made their point by decimating one town bordering Cheliax every time they’ve identified some would-be assassin from one of their neighbors, dropping the assassins corpse (after a brief stint as undead) at the embassy, then marching right back to their own borders.
And then I’d combine all of those to get some really horrid things going…
Imagine the force of 100 devil set to raiding an enemy country until every one of them was dead… Just to have that force of 100 walk back out of a gate minutes later ready to rinse and repeat.
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Of course, in his opinion, if players' characters can go from 1-16th level over the course of one or two years of in-game time (see the adventure paths,) there should be NPCs who do the same; and any D&D world that doesn't take 15-20th level heroes into account when describing the status quo of nations breaks down for him.
I think this may be a critical assumption on his part, which (as far as I can tell) Golarion doesn't use. Sure, there may be a handful of high-level NPCs, but it seems to me that the designers are trying to reserve that for mostly PCs. After all, they are the heroes of the story, right? If there are too many high-level NPCs running around, it kind-of detracts from the uniqueness and accomplishment of the PCs.
I'd say, if he really thinks that some high-level good characters ought to go clear out Cheliax, let him (and probably the rest of the group 8^) play some characters up to that level, and let THEM do it!
Seriously, I think the suspension of disbelief issues that crop up with Cheliax 'can' be tied with how easily the individual can differentiate systemic evil from a more shallow interpretation of evil.
Most people in Cheliax are fed and live in relative safety. Most enjoy a life better than during the Civil War. Most are able to pay lip service to the State Religion and get away with it without any hassle. Most never see a devil (or a devil that looks like a devil) in their whole life.
Now, as the books suggest, they might not live with perfect peace of mind... But they do live in peace.
I have had it pointed out to me that Cheliax promotes slavery, so the citizens can't be happy. I replied, "Who exactly do you think owns the slaves?" The answer is the good citizens of Cheliax, that's who. As slaves are often debtors.
They don’t rise up and revolt because a large part of the population would rather accept the status quo than the violent uncertainty of revolution and civil war.
One might as well ask why the citizens of Cuba haven't overthrown Castro, or why all the Christians in Germany didn't as a whole resist the Third Reich?
(To be fair and historical, some did, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Nationalism, systemic evil..
Cheliax is quite a complex concept, to the credit of the Developers.
Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I'm not terrific at debate, and while I can see how it makes sense why an openly devil-worshipping nation would be very hard to depose, framing it well and figuring out how to express it on the cuff has been a problem.
I think impressions on what percentage of the world is or should be high level (and not neutral) might be part of the disconnect between campaign-world-views here.
It just comes down to the mentality of Cheliax. Chelish folk love power, not necessarily insatiably so, but regardless they are drawn to it. It is mentioned that they followed Aroden for this reason, he provided them power (in the form of stability, success, common welfare, etc). When Aroden died...people just sort of went crazy, there was civil war, the country was being torn apart. The House of Thrune (and consequently Asmodeus and his devils) arrived and offered Cheliax what they wanted, both the stability and power of Hell.
Furthermore, Cheliax is, largely, a LN country, not LE...Asmodeus isn't a crazy god, he doesn't just go around slaughtering, nor does he just lay waste to random countrysides...hes, all in all, probably a pretty "fair" god. Now if they followed Rovie...then you'd probably have a good basis.
But as it is, Cheliax is actually prospering, some LG guy would have to think themselves pretty righteous to think its ok to go destroy a whole country's way of life just because they don't agree with the patron deity. Yea these people exist, but not enough to wage a war.
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Also, while Cheliax is a problem, it's not actively trying to unmake the world, unlike, say the Wordlwound. The high-level forces of Good will get around to Cheliax, right after they've stopped Golariun plunging into the Abyss. Ironically, Asmodeus and Cheliax are supporting them in this endeavour. And what sort of Lawful Good person would turn so quickly on his allies?
Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I'm not terrific at debate, and while I can see how it makes sense why an openly devil-worshipping nation would be very hard to depose, framing it well and figuring out how to express it on the cuff has been a problem.
I think impressions on what percentage of the world is or should be high level (and not neutral) might be part of the disconnect between campaign-world-views here.
Just show him this thread. Don't make the argument yourself when you got several different viewpoints available here for your use.
Why didn't all the super-powerful good forces of Greyhawk just step in one day and wipe out Iuz? Mainly because there weren't all that many super-powerful good forces in Greyhawk.
Didn't Iuz get wiped out accidentally by a poorly-written barbarian with a hangover? Or is that not canon?
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I think impressions on what percentage of the world is or should be high level (and not neutral) might be part of the disconnect between campaign-world-views here.
Yup... James has said in the "populations of countries" thread that (paraphrased)while the absolute cap for PCs is 20... the normal cap for most NPCs is 9. The PCs are made to represent those top 5-10% that achieve greater than normal deed and abilities. While there are NPCs higher than 9, they are spread pretty thinly, mostly retired adventurers that are now king's advisers or hermits or the like
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It's also worth remembering (as referenced obliquely earlier in the thread) that Asmodeus, while evil, really isn't considered a threat on the same scale that Rovagug or even Lamashtu are, even by the good gods. You might not like him, but you can deal with Asmodeus, and know he'll keep his word - you also know that, unlike those insane demons and daemons, the devils actually kinda like the world and want to keep it around. In the case of the Lord of Hell, it really is a matter of "better the devil you know..."
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Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I'm not terrific at debate, and while I can see how it makes sense why an openly devil-worshipping nation would be very hard to depose, framing it well and figuring out how to express it on the cuff has been a problem.
I think impressions on what percentage of the world is or should be high level (and not neutral) might be part of the disconnect between campaign-world-views here.
The best way to frame it is that the ruling classes of Cheliax believe they are the ones in control of all the devils. They bind and control devils and even have the upper hand in most deals with them.
People might say that the Chelaxians are eeeeevil, but the Chelaxians would respond:
"Devils are evil, and we bind them, control them and give them purpose for a greater social good. Because of this people can farm, have families, trade and live in peace and prosperity. Would you let these innocent people go to war just because you disagree with our choice of beast of burden?"
The implication of course is that the government of Cheliax has at its disposal the entire population of a nation as hostages in any conflict. Hostages who have been paying lip service to Asmodeus, if those people die you don't send farmer joe to some just reward. You send him to the infernal levels of hell where he can spend centuries being tortured and turned into a pathetic lemure.
To overthrow Cheliax means you have to win the hearts, minds and souls of the people first. War won't do it, only rebellion, the shackles of tyranny can only be overthrown by the opporessed. At this moment the oppressed don't feel all that bad about the way things are.
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Cheliax is totally plausible. Elminster and the Chosen Lingerie Brigade don't exist in this world to pop over and wipe them off the map.
The movers and shakers of surrounding or competing nations tend to be embroiled in their own affairs, and the most militarily powerful and active good characters of the setting are likely up in Mendev, busy trying to stop armies of demons from pouring into our world and destroying it, and the leader of that noble effort? A *Chelaxian* duchess, Queen Galfrey, Sword of Iomedae.
So really, Cheliax is not even on their 'to do' list, right now.
While I don't see a specific mention of this, it wouldn't be at all out of character for there to be a lesser Order of Hellknights that has been assigned to the Mendevian campaign. Cheliax was one of the three founding nations of the first Crusade (alongside Isger and Andoran), and it would serve their interests to send would-be Hellknights (and, particularly, would-be Signifiers with their eye on promotion to the Order of the Gate) to get some valuable experience (and weeding out the less competent) working against the fiends of the Worldwound. Call them the Order of the Shield, or something.
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At this moment the oppressed don't feel all that bad about the way things are.
This isn't really true; there are a lot of people in Cheliax who really don't enjoy life in a police state modeled on Hell itself. The catch, though, is that most of them don't really have any idea about how they would change it, don't really even imagine that such change is possible, and are fairly certain (and rightly so) that trying to change it would only wind up getting them and their immediate families roasted alive or forced to watch while bearded devils visited unspeakable atrocities on their daughters.
The order of Cheliax really does come at a high price; what is really, really, really worth remembering, though, is that, ultimately, it is a human evil, not a supernatural one. The Chelish nobility sought out the infernal lash as a means of control; in the end, they are willing to do whatever is necessary to maintain power, and dealing with devils is only the most visible element of a megalomania that runs very deep in the Chelish cultural psyche.
This last is not an effective argument. A Good person playing the meta conflict will note that you've made Cheliax into a Engine For Hell, providing them thousands of free souls for nothing every generation, and all they have to do is swallow their pride for bouts of irrelevant service to mortals whose lifespans are measured in motes of dust.
Killing the entire nation deprives Hell of an endless stream of souls. That is an EXTREMELY good thing to do, and more then enough justification for warfare. Of course, what you really want to do is invade and convert and deny Hell all those souls completely.
As for the 100 Devils, if Cheliax does that, you just counter with 100 Devas who always pop up wherever the Devils go. Also, only Named devils return to Hell. Gated Devils are really here, and they die if summoned, permanently. A Named Devil slain on the prime can't leave its home plane for a century, Gate or no Gate. Leaving the old home plane and getting killed is not just dangerous, it's a freaking embarassment if a bunch of mortals pops you off.
==Aelryinth
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Killing the entire nation deprives Hell of an endless stream of souls. That is an EXTREMELY good thing to do,
I really don't want to turn this into a debate about alignment or morality, but when your argument posits genocide as a good thing, you can generally be pretty sure you've gone off track somewhere.
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If someone else has already pointed this out, I apologize in advance.
Keep in mind that Cheliax is NOT Lawful Evil as a nation. There are in fact Lawful Neutral. This combined with the fact that most people just pay lip service to "church" of Asmodeous means that other nations, while indeed worried, will not openly oppose Cheliax.
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Killing the entire nation deprives Hell of an endless stream of souls. That is an EXTREMELY good thing to do,
There is no game mechanical benefit (or penalty) from Hell gaining a single soul, or every soul on Golarion, and therefore it's not worth a single act of murder, let alone a genocide, to stop that from happening.
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Killing the entire nation deprives Hell of an endless stream of souls. That is an EXTREMELY good thing to do,There is no game mechanical benefit (or penalty) from Hell gaining a single soul, or every soul on Golarion, and therefore it's not worth a single act of murder, let alone a genocide, to stop that from happening.
Bahahaha! Hilarious Set ^_^
@ Aelrynth: Anyone that pays "lip service" to Asmodeus is in for a rude awakening in the afterlife. Like I said above, anybody that dies who pays lip service to Asmodeus is likely going to end up in Hell, Azzy isn't one to give up what's his after all.
@ Aelrynth: Anyone that pays "lip service" to Asmodeus is in for a rude awakening in the afterlife. Like I said above, anybody that dies who pays lip service to Asmodeus is likely going to end up in Hell, Azzy isn't one to give up what's his after all.
So what you're saying is, if a neutral person pays lip service to an evil god, the evil god gets their soul after death, but if they pay lip service to a good god, the good god somehow does not get their soul, either from not wanting it or that's not the way the metaphysics work?
What if I pay lip service to a whole bunch of evil gods? Do they thumb wrestle? Go with seniority? Check to see which evil god got my lip service first, or most often, or some other silliness?
What do the gods do with people who change religion like they change their socks, with fanatical devotion to the god du jour and more Atonements than birthdays? Does the soul go to whoever currently has the worship of the fanatic?
And what exactly happens with the souls of the preverbal? Can Azzy get any of them, and if so, what exactly do the legions of hell do with babies anyway? Put them into soulgems and wear them as jewelry? Grind them up and snort them? What?
Creative Director
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Yup... James has said in the "populations of countries" thread that (paraphrased)while the absolute cap for PCs is 20... the normal cap for most NPCs is 9. The PCs are made to represent those top 5-10% that achieve greater than normal deed and abilities. While there are NPCs higher than 9, they are spread pretty thinly, mostly retired adventurers that are now king's advisers or hermits or the like
I think impressions on what percentage of the world is or should be high level (and not neutral) might be part of the disconnect between campaign-world-views here.
Of course, this doesn't mean that we won't have characters above 20th level now and then... but yeah, for the most part characters above 9th level are going to be relatively rare overall, even if they "feel" more common in high level adventures (remember that a high-level adventure gives a skewed perspective).
As for why a team of high-level good guy NPCs don't just swoop into Cheliax and "fix it..." the answer basically boils down to the fact that there ARE none in Golarion who can fix it. That's the job of a band of high level PCs. There are good guy nations... but not many. We specifically built Golarion so that there wouldn't be a pre-built set of heroes or a super powerful good guy nation, so that there'd be more adventure and, honestly, more room for nations like Cheliax or Nidal or Nex or Irisen to exist in the first place. A good guy nation COULD challenge Cheliax, but a lot of good people in both nations would suffer, victory over Cheliax would by no means be ensured, and while the good guy nation was doing its thing in Cheliax, it would be exposing its own nation to trouble or invasion or whatever from other directions.
Also... no one's going in to ruin Cheliax because we at Paizo really like the nation, and we decide in the world's storyline what happens. :-P
As for the gods themselves... they don't take an active role in events in Golarion really, so they've got their own reasons to not get directly involved.
The same reason Lawful Evil Cheliax doesnt spread throughout the world dominating everyone and converting them to the worship of Asmodeus. I think it makes sense to presume a rough 'balance of power' between the various inner sea nations. It might be a dynamic set of relationships, but overall there is no nation or other faction strong enough to eradicate any of the others without serious risk of exposing themselves to attack by third parties.
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Somehow in the Forgotten Realms, Thay manages to chug along happily without meddling do-gooders stopping them. Cheliax is a lot more subtle than that.
Devils serve as a means to an end for those who rule. The powers wrested from them are used to stave off anarchy and maintain the status quo. The only problem is that the status is *NOT* quo.
Bad Things(tm) are happening in the name of order, and the taint of hell is spreading. Normal people are scared and beginning to have doubts about the royal managerial style, so to speak.
IIRC this is the general theme explored in the newest AP Council of Thieves. :)
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Anyone else have any good arguements why devils & diabolists can get away with not hiding their affiliation in a world where Scry and Slay exists? Why staying on the down-low isn't the smarter option for the master manipulators of Hell?
Per the Cheliax book, the majority beleive that the devils serve Cheliax. Devils do not control Cheliax.
With that in mind, even if a few Goody-goody type say "Hang on a minute, that's not right" the majority is going to protect the agreement that grants them the service of devils to protect Cheliax.
Anyone else have any good arguements why devils & diabolists can get away with not hiding their affiliation in a world where Scry and Slay exists? Why staying on the down-low isn't the smarter option for the master manipulators of Hell?Per the Cheliax book, the majority beleive that the devils serve Cheliax. Devils do not control Cheliax.
With that in mind, even if a few Goody-goody type say "Hang on a minute, that's not right" the majority is going to protect the agreement that grants them the service of devils to protect Cheliax.
Also scry and die doesn't work nearly as well as suggested, and is an excellent way to get yourself killed. If I had a situation where I was in charge of Cheliax there would always be *something* just at 20 feet away from me ready to kill a teleport special.
OR a continuous anti magic field could be nice, if my castle doesn't have lead built into it everywhere (and you think it wouldn't? I own one of the biggest kingdoms in the world for crying out loud!).
Not to mention that scrying doesn't give that good of a chance on teleporting.
Of course, in his opinion, if players' characters can go from 1-16th level over the course of one or two years of in-game time (see the adventure paths,) there should be NPCs who do the same; and any D&D world that doesn't take 15-20th level heroes into account when describing the status quo of nations breaks down for him.
Sounds like he is assuming that only good NPCs can get to level 15-20. They could just as easily be a lot of high level NPCs that dealing with these Devils and keeping Cheliax the way it is. As well 15-20 level NPC with Devil backing them would be much more powerful to deal with. Add to that the relative stability brought to the nation after 30 year of civil war where population might be thinking that the current regime is the lesser of two evils.