Is it pbp time already?
One person make a wizard, and he/she chooses what bloodline the sorcerer gets.
The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school.
I think that is fair. You guys get to pick the amount of gold they can spend and the level they are(I suggest 20th level).
The power of a class in pbp does not tell its power within a group. I don't think the wizard can be defeated assuming the builders are of equal skill, just making a point.
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The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school. I think that is fair.Not if the "boost the wizards!" guy picks evocation as the school -- given that it's arguably hands-down the lamest school of magic in 3.X, by far. A 10d6+5 or 10d6+10 fireball is totally irrelevant when your enemies have 200 hp and can save for half -- but a stinking cloud still shuts them down cold. An equally good comparison could be made by picking the admittedly lame "destined" bloodline for the sorcerer, but requiring the wizard to use all his higher-level spell slots to prepare unseen servant.
My point is that the person playing the wizard we'll pick the worst bloodline(in their opinion), while the person playing the sorcerer will pick the worst wizard scool(in their opinion).
Worst vs Worst= fair fight.
It has already been shown that a Dragon Bloodline can cast much more devistating spells than an Evocer. The blood line power gives an extra point per die and the specialist power gives 1/2 levels.
Level 10 Fireball by an evocer hits for 10d6+5 and the red dragon wanabe flying over there hits for 10d6+10.
Now look at Scorching ray the evocer can hit for 8d6 +5 and the Sorcerer has been hitting for 8d6+8 since level 7 and once we go to level 11 it gets worse. 12d6+5 vs. 12d6+12
Good point. Let me illustrate the same principle by expanding your argument to include a few more evocation spells:
Magic missile: Wizard 5d4+10, "red dragon wannabe" 5d4+5
Lightning bolt: Wizard 10d6+5, "red dragon wannabe" 10d6+0
Cone of cold: Wizard 10d6+5, "red dragon wannabe" 10d6+0And now we'll take things to level 11, where, as you say, it gets worse!
Freezing Sphere: Wizard 11d6+5, "red dragon wannabe" 0
Chain lightning: Wizard 11d6+5, "red dragon wannabe" 0
Disintegrate: Wizard 22d6+0, "red dragon wannabe" 0Clearly, the wizard is unplayable and needs a boost.
I did not even notice he used only fire spells for his examples. I need to work on my sense motive check.
The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school. I think that is fair.Not if the "boost the wizards!" guy picks evocation as the school -- given that it's arguably hands-down the lamest school of magic in 3.X, by far. A 10d6+5 or 10d6+10 fireball is totally irrelevant when your enemies have 200 hp and can save for half -- but a stinking cloud still shuts them down cold. An equally good comparison could be made by picking the admittedly lame "destined" bloodline for the sorcerer, but requiring the wizard to use all his higher-level spell slots to prepare unseen servant.My point is that the person playing the wizard we'll pick the worst bloodline(in their opinion), while the person playing the sorcerer will pick the worst wizard scool(in their opinion).
Worst vs Worst= fair fight.
The people arguing for the wizard being stronger are pointing toward his ability to do it all. Therefore the generalist or universal wizard should be used. The person arguing for the sorcerer being stronger can choose any bloodline they want to use.
Levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 should be used.
My point is that the person playing the wizard we'll pick the worst bloodline(in their opinion), while the person playing the sorcerer will pick the worst wizard scool(in their opinion).
Worst vs Worst= fair fight.
Worse vs worse tells you which class has the poorest option, not which one has the strongest option. In any case generally it has less to do with which class is better and more to do with who builds better PvP characters. Incidentally, it also plays into the wizard's strengths because the wizard knows exactly the nature of the encounter ahead of him.
And for the record there are no bad wizard schools. There are a couple wizard schools you don't want to prohibit (conjuration and transmutation) but other than that there are no bad ones.
It is hard for a properly played wizard to have the wrong spells or at least have useful spells, even if they are not the best for that situation.Ok, that is true for the 1st encounter of the day. But what of the 2nd, 3rd or even 4th? Here he will most likely have bad to none spells ready.
The wizard can have the wrong spells for a battle, but he has a much better chance of having the right spells simply because he can change spells out daily, or wait until later to memorize the spell. The sorcerer can't suddenly get the correct spells unless he runs back to town, and that is not always an option.
As far as not having spells, that is not necessarily true. I have always reserved my spells as a caster, if possible. One of my players, when I am DM'ing, insist on casting spells even when the battle is well in hand. I tried to throw him hints, but he ignors it. Then when the boss fight comes up he's basically useless. That is not a fault of the class, but a fault of the player.
The above situation occurred more than one time.
The people arguing for the wizard being stronger are pointing toward his ability to do it all. Therefore the generalist or universal wizard should be used.
Now we just need the sorcerer bloodline to also be not immune to fire. Then both players can load up their spell slots with time stops and delayed blast fireballs and let the initiative roll decide things.
Why does it seem like all high-level combat degenerates into rocket tag?
The people arguing for the wizard being stronger are pointing toward his ability to do it all. Therefore the generalist or universal wizard should be used.Now we just need the sorcerer bloodline to also be not immune to fire. Then both players can load up their spell slots with time stops and delayed blast fireballs and let the initiative roll decide things.
Why does it seem like all high-level combat degenerates into rocket tag?
If the wizard tries to outblast the sorcerer I will definitely have to beleive the fight was thrown. :)
Seeing as you had to search the post and failed to see that... wouldn't you need Perception instead? ;)
I guess that would depend on whether or not was a deliberate deception or an honest mistake.
If the wizard tries to outblast the sorcerer I will definitely have to beleive the fight was thrown. :)The people arguing for the wizard being stronger are pointing toward his ability to do it all. Therefore the generalist or universal wizard should be used.Now we just need the sorcerer bloodline to also be not immune to fire. Then both players can load up their spell slots with time stops and delayed blast fireballs and let the initiative roll decide things.
Why does it seem like all high-level combat degenerates into rocket tag?
It makes sense in this case. At level 20, there are enough ways to cram so much blasting into one turn (time stop + delayed blast fireball being merely the most gratuitous one) that whoever goes second is unlikely to go at all.
Of course, the way to go if you really want to munchkin it up in 1v1 PvP is to craft as many single-use items with your favorite ninth-level spell as you possibly can. At 20th level, that's 230 (wizard) or 217 (sorcerer). Now take leadership and hand them out to your followers like they're candy.
whoever goes second is unlikely to go at all.
That seems to be the common factor in high level play, which is why I give my characters(PC's or NPC's) a lot of defensive items if possible.
Yeah, but just assume they did...
PvP:
No magic allowed! Let's give the Wizard and Sorcerer heavy armor and greatswords and watch them flail about!
PvP:
No magic allowed! Let's give the Wizard and Sorcerer heavy armor and greatswords and watch them flail about!Hm... somebody asked for a level 20 PvP, so thats +10 BAB, let's be kind and assume +1 strength, and say they took Greatsword proficiency as a feat.
Fullplate armor = 20 AC
so they'd be hitting on a 9 assuming no other AC boosters/ no armor enhancement bonuses. Could be interesting lmao
So will this be a PBP? If so, I want the Sorcer with the Abysal bloodline.
~GRINS~
I did not even notice he used only fire spells for his examples. I need to work on my sense motive check.
Naturaly the Dragon Blooded sorcerer is only going to pick his element then at level 3 he gets energy substitution. Every round you hit them with Fire and get your bonus and whenever you get a fire proof mob switch to something else.
You get your damage boost 90% of the time and you are far from helpless when the fire proof mob shows up. A full load of fire spells, dispel magic, and enervation will go along way in a fight.
Honestly guys if you have a Fire based sorcerer in your game that used one of their few spell picks for Lightning bolt. Get them some special-ed classes. That boy is heading for the short bus.
PvP:
No magic allowed! Let's give the Wizard and Sorcerer heavy armor and greatswords and watch them flail about!
Then the Sorcerer wins. Demon claws for the win!
If I was going to play a Abysal sorcerer Anti-magic shell would be at the top of my pick lists.Looking over the Abysal Sorcerer he looks good to me. Normaly the claws and extra strength would be useless but with Transformation he would be a terror.
As an Abysal Sorcerer I would be casting summon monster almost constantly with a sprinkling of Imp. Invisibility and dispel magic. When he hits level 15 summoning 2 fiendish Rocs per cast sounds pretty hot. So his powers are mostly melee based until level 15 but I could find a way to make it pay off.
Compare the powers of the weak Abysal Sorcerer to a Conjuration specialist Wizard.
The wizards summons last 1/2 his level in rounds longer.
The demon bloods gives summoned monsters DR Good equal to half his levels.
Now once that Wizy gets to level 20 he can have a permament summon monster 9 up at all times. Very cool, but is it better than all the demon resistances and traits?
So how many of you are actually playing a Wizard in a Pathfinder game?
I did not even notice he used only fire spells for his examples. I need to work on my sense motive check.Naturaly the Dragon Blooded sorcerer is only going to pick his element then at level 3 he gets energy substitution. Every round you hit them with Fire and get your bonus and whenever you get a fire proof mob switch to something else.
You get your damage boost 90% of the time and you are far from helpless when the fire proof mob shows up. A full load of fire spells, dispel magic, and enervation will go along way in a fight.
Honestly guys if you have a Fire based sorcerer in your game that used one of their few spell picks for Lightning bolt. Get them some special-ed classes. That boy is heading for the short bus.
Being able to deal more damage in one of the energy areas was not a valid comparison. I just assumed you were using that example, and had done the research on other spells also. When you use your fire spell with energy substitution the descriptor changes so it is no longer a fire spell. Energy Admixture would be a different thing however.
Since many monsters are immune/resistant to energy damage, especially fire that is the last one I would choose if I did go the blasting route.
There is no reason to pick a lot of spells that do the same thing. Pick a line spell, a cone spell, and AoE as needed. If you have Energy substitution the the feat can change them to a fire type. I almost forgot ray spells.
PvP:
No magic allowed! Let's give the Wizard and Sorcerer heavy armor and greatswords and watch them flail about!Then the Sorcerer wins. Demon claws for the win!
If I was going to play a Abysal sorcerer Anti-magic shell would be at the top of my pick lists.Looking over the Abysal Sorcerer he looks good to me. Normaly the claws and extra strength would be useless but with Transformation he would be a terror.
As an Abysal Sorcerer I would be casting summon monster almost constantly with a sprinkling of Imp. Invisibility and dispel magic. When he hits level 15 summoning 2 fiendish Rocs per cast sounds pretty hot. So his powers are mostly melee based until level 15 but I could find a way to make it pay off.
Compare the powers of the weak Abysal Sorcerer to a Conjuration specialist Wizard.
The wizards summons last 1/2 his level in rounds longer.
The demon bloods gives summoned monsters DR Good equal to half his levels.So how many of you are actually playing a Wizard in a Pathfinder game?
If you are summoning monsters you probably already lost the game. That is one of the most useless series of spells ever. DR does not save the summons from energy attacks and when you invite you new friends to the party I will AoE them back to where they came from, assuming they are worth the time. If I see you taking a full round to cast a spell all it takes is one good spell to force a high concentration check, but then again if you're summoning something I may just assume you wasted your action. Basically don't expect much from summons.
A wizard can have summon monster because he has so many spells to choose from, not that he should. A sorcerer learning summon monster needs to go back to sorcerer school. Ok so there is no sorcerer school, but if there is one he needs to be first in line.
I just looked at transformation. It is a trap spell. You are a mid to high level caster with d6 hit points and low BAB. You can step into melee if you want, but I am sure the DM will be handing you a new character sheet. Downgrading from a full caster to a meleer that probably could not do well against the warrior NPC class is not a good idea.
You are not helping your case here, and you are convincing any noobs to never play a sorcerer.
Since many monsters are immune/resistant to energy damage, especially fire that is the last one I would choose if I did go the blasting route.
If I were to go the blaster route I think I would go for Earth. Then you can load up on Cone of Cold, Fireball, scorching Ray, etc, and substitute in acid damage (Elemental bloodlines get free substitution). Very few creatures have resistance to that many types of energy. The draconic bloodlines are good to a point but the elementals get to switch out at will which is nice.
20th level Rocket Tag
I'm playing the diviner!!
[
Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
To be honest... this is pretty damned sweet at any level. So the question is at 20th level do you assume your roll was 20 AND add 1/2 your level so your base initiative roll is 30? Even just the +10 is pretty awesome. Heck, grab improved initiative and we'll call this the "Always goes first" School of Magic.
Too bad wizards suck, it would be grand...
Always nice to see an individual telegraph the fact that they've not a shred of relevant play experience.
If you are summoning monsters you probably already lost the game. That is one of the most useless series of spells ever. DR does not save the summons from energy attacks and when you invite you new friends to the party I will AoE them back to where they came from, assuming they are worth the time. If I see you taking a full round to cast a spell all it takes is one good spell to force a high concentration check, but then again if you're summoning something I may just assume you wasted your action. Basically don't expect much from summons.
Since this is a debate how about you try doing that instead of hurling insults. I listed reasons why I did not beleive in summon monster. Can you tell me why my opinion was wrong. From my experience as a DM and player less than 20% of the list is worth summoning, making it a bad choice for a sorcerer or a wizard. Do you care to counter the point?
Always nice to see an individual dismiss someone out of hand without a shred of counter argument.Quite right. If you're really interested in such tangential information - here ya go:
Summon monster spells
1) Are not subject to spell resistance
2) Can be effectively cast preemptively (e.g. summoned before knocking the door down)
3) Can choose targets on a battlefield mixed in with allies
4) Are effective over multiple rounds
5) Present alternate targets to the opposition
6) Can be used to block areas of the battlefield (e.g. guard allies)
7) Provide a range of utility benefits - scouting through walls, use of spell-like abilities, etcAs for specific refutations of the above:
1) Typically have energy resistances / spell resistance, although low. Not horrifically vulnerable to AoEs.
2) May be swapped out by the sorcerer when/if they become obsolete.They are not hugely effective in a 1v1 caster duel where each individual has both awareness and sequential turns. To claim they are useless in play as compared with other spells, however, is very simply never to have used them.
They are however subject to dispel magic and dismissal. They normally are not level appropriate creatures so barring a lucky high roll, can't hit the enemy. If they can't hit me they are not a threat. If they are not a threat I will ignore them and try to kill the caster before he does something useful.
I have yet to see any them effective over multiple rounds on a consistent enough manner enough to justify a sorcerer wasting a spell slot on them.Almost every spell is useful at some point. That does not make it a legitimate pick over other spells.
I ran some maths on this at the beta stage.
The sorcerer without bloodline abilities was able to out damage the Invoker with school powers. Sorcerers are undoubtedly more powerful than they were.
That doesn't mean they are better than wizards. Both classes are very good.
I think more than anything this argument stems from the fact that different player find one class or the other, more in tune with their play style.
However, a particularly clever wizard when battling a Sorcerer will use .....
The intelligence and creativity of a player is always the most important factor in how effective that character is.
We have gotten away from the differences in the sorcerer vs a wizard and gotten into the phalas waving I can beet you in a duel stage. Anyone can be beaten. Everyone has a weakness.
I have said that the wizy is at a disadvantage over the sorcerer. He is a better caster in any chosen field with special abilities to boot.
Compair the
Evoker to the Dragon, Dragon does more damage and gets wings, elemental resistance and DR.
Conjuror vs Abysal, Abysals summons have serious advantages over the wizards summons.
Universalist vs Arcane --
The Diviner has a great power but they has a disadvantage that 1/5 of all their spells must be divinations.
I will be glad to stack that against the aberants powers of a free 20' reach, imunity to critical hits, blind sight and DR 5/-
I ask again. Are you going to run a wizard?
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My point is that the person playing the wizard we'll pick the worst bloodline(in their opinion), while the person playing the sorcerer will pick the worst wizard scool(in their opinion).
Worst vs Worst= fair fight.
Worse vs worse tells you which class has the poorest option, not which one has the strongest option. In any case generally it has less to do with which class is better and more to do with who builds better PvP characters. Incidentally, it also plays into the wizard's strengths because the wizard knows exactly the nature of the encounter ahead of him.
And for the record there are no bad wizard schools. There are a couple wizard schools you don't want to prohibit (conjuration and transmutation) but other than that there are no bad ones.
How does this play to a wizard's strength? He knows the sorcerer's bloodline, not his spell or feats, or even how they will be used. By bad schools, I was talking about other peoples opinions(I share your, there are no bad schools) based on the powers given by specializing.
Ill still runa a wizard. Lets see Evoker vs dragon, Evoker will rely upon fly and invisibilty and then take him out with energy spells that the draconic sorcerer has no resistance against.
Diviner vs aberrant sorcerer. The diviner has the excellent ability to spy on his enemy from a far away position. Lets see Diviner scrys upon said sorcerer with arcane eye or scry spell, and learns weakness and defenses. He then takes the proper precautions and measures and enters combat accordignly. And he will not enter the 20ft reach of such an opponent.
Conjuror vs Abyssal. The conjuror wont rely upon his summons but on the various cloud spells and battlefield control spells granted to him by his class to succesfully neutralize such an opponent.
Once again we have prick waving on who can kill whom. I am very impressed that you can come up with a way to kill an opponent that you know everything about. I really am. So what spell will you cast to determine your opponents powers and weaknesses when you meet them for the first time?
The Dragon gets wings for free and there is nothing stopping him from taking improved invisibility and resist elements also.
A sorcerer learning summon monster needs to go back to sorcerer school. Ok so there is no sorcerer school, but if there is one he needs to be first in line.
Summoning spells, silent spell metamagic feat, invisibility. Can have fun with that one.
I just looked at transformation. It is a trap spell.
This dates back to 1e with Tenser's Transformation. Didn't see much use for it then, don't see much use for it now. I figure it worked with a particular PC's character back in the day, Gygax liked it, threw it in.
The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school. I think that is fair.Not if the "boost the wizards!" guy picks evocation as the school -- given that it's arguably hands-down the lamest school of magic in 3.X, by far. A 10d6+5 or 10d6+10 fireball is totally irrelevant when your enemies have 200 hp and can save for half -- but a stinking cloud still shuts them down cold. An equally good comparison could be made by picking the admittedly lame "destined" bloodline for the sorcerer, but requiring the wizard to use all his higher-level spell slots to prepare unseen servant.
Please. Show me the monster with 200 hp that is going to fail a DC 20 fortitude save against stinking cloud. This spell was talked up like crazy, but every time I've seen it in use it fails, because the high hit point monsters almost always have high fortitude saves, while the low hit point monsters are almost always better off just being fried.
I think in the entirety of 3.5/Pathfinder I've had it work for me once against a bunch of gargoyles. Every other time I found myself wishing I'd prepared something else.
Save or die / Save or suck proponents love to talk down to direct damage - and in some ways they are right, but they (you) also need to get a grip with the fact that against higher level/HD foes with good saves they become all but worthless. My conjurer has almost become an evocation specialist in my most recent campaign, given the inability of most save or sucks to take out high hit die animals and the inefficiency of using a save or suck on a 2 HD pirate (currently playing through the STAP).
Claiming that summoned monsters are going to melee as well as the fighter or barbarian is absurd. At best they are 3-6 CR points lower than the caster's level. If your fighter is being out damaged by a monster 4 levels lower than him the problem isn't with the wizard, it's with the fighter player. That isn't to say that summons aren't useful (despite their despicable casting time) - I've used them with mighty effect recently, but you're getting a little absurd.
Buffs are great - haste was my staple start of combat spell for a long time, but after a point they are not worth stacking anymore. Further, I would point out that while playing a buffer might be effective, it isn't always enjoyable to be the guy who never actually does anything himself. There are also problems that come up with buffing, where many combats are over before the buffs meaningfully affect it. Please don't make a smart remark about how the wizard getting surprised is a sign of a bad player - not everyone plays the game as a miniatures war game - sometimes people do actually want to have characters that aren't automated killing machines committed throughout their lives to efficiency.
As for the wizard vs. sorcerer argument. They aren't the same thing. In my experience I've found wizards to be superior for my playstyle, but I do think it is important to avoid discounting the fact that if the PC's can't get to Civilization for a while the wizard doesn't have any more spells known really than the sorcerer. The STAP has like 3-4 levels where you can't get to anywhere with a sizable GP limit, and as such are limited to your 2/level, so this isn't just some randomly drawn up contrived campaign I'm speaking of.
Granted, that once you get teleport that problem begins to fade until you reach higher levels and have to find archmagi willing to share their 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells...
Arguing which would win against the other in a duel or some such nonsense proves nothing except that you can throw huge red herrings into the discussion of their relative merits in play (Congrats!).
Classes are not balanced against each other in combat, and assuming that they are is stupid. This isn't WoW where we are all PVPing each other. This is a role playing game that involves teams working together to achieve objectives. Each brings their own merits to the table. \
The sorcerer brings lot of spells per day and the potential for continuous blasting and the ability to repeatedly cast the same spells - and make no mistake such is useful in many circumstances. Talk it down if you want, but when fighting off a pirate fleet I'll take 6 fireballs over dispel magic, fly, and stinking cloud every day. I won't go into the relative merits of a high charisma to the group - because in many ways these aren't strictly codified within the rules.
The wizard on the other hand can - given time and resources - usually adopt to most threats. He provides diversity (assuming he's able to add spells to his spellbook freely) and access to spells a level faster than the sorcerer. He almost certainly has more skill points - and can thus afford to be a knowledge junky.
Arguing which would win against the other in a duel or some such nonsense proves nothing except that you can throw huge red herrings into the discussion of their relative merits in play (Congrats!).
Yeah, I agree. Can we drop the PvP BS and grow up a little here?
Unless you know your DM is going to be handing out spells and letting you know what you are about to encounter, taking a Wizard is like gimping yourself for RP reasons. Maybe it won't matter, and you'll be just as cool, or you could have a fear of water where the last part of the adventure involves fighting at the bottom of the sea!
Or, you could play a wizard for the challenge of using the spells you've picked to their utmost. I've managed quite well with wizards even when spellbooks are rare and civilization is distant by finding ways to maximize the effectiveness of my spells. Certains spells are great for both wizards and sorcerers to know, but there's something to be said for the challenge of using what you've got. Nothing beats casting a spell and having the DM's eyes grow wide as he realizes what you're up to.
Let me also point out that play styles differ. In campaigns I'm used to, the benefit of all those spells per day a sorcerer gets is wasted, as we tend to pick one fight a day. So superior ammunition quantities given to the sorcerer are useless when you're not in battle in our group.
And finally, you don't need to know what's coming to play a wizard. Just prepare for what you think is coming and be quick on your feet. If you're wrong, improvisation is a useful skill.
Now, let's all take a deep breath and step back from the thread for a few moments.
Please. Show me the monster with 200 hp that is going to fail a DC 20 fortitude save against stinking cloud.
Sorry; I was insufficiently clear. Let me put it this way:
Big, tough monster --> use hold monster instead.
Super-caster BBEG --> use baleful polymorph instead.
Army of mooks you don't want to fight through --> use stinking cloud.
The point is that there's a "save or lose the fight" spell for every type of opponent. Damage does nothing to impede the enemy's fighting ability. We feel like it should, so we have a tendency to act like it does, but no game mechanic exists in Pathfinder for it to do so. If loss of hp led to fatigue and exhaustion, then direct-damage would suddenly become a very good strategy for a caster.