It is very possible to make a Wizard that can do everything you can skill-wise, as well as you can and still do a bunch of other stuff.Let me guess..
Like everyone else who has claimed that in this thread, you aren't going to provide an actual example that will support your assertion either, right?
Wrong! I'm working on it right now, but I need to know what attribute buy to use.
Sorcerers get more per spells per day
FWIW, I think this should be true, but in practice it isn't always. E.g. a 1st Wizard can match a 1st Sorcerer with the same casting stat if he's a specialist with a bonded item. The levels where he's a spell level ahead also kick the sorcerer in the crotch in the "more spells per day" race.
The only thing I've ever been able to figure is that the 3rd edition designers thought spontaneous casting from a very limited list of spells as implemented for sorcerers is a fair bit better than it actually is, and while I think sorcerer bloodlines are a step in the right direction, I don't think PF's bonded object and much more attractive specialization options have helped the problem.
And our disagreement comes as to if you should be able to discern this using a skill such as spellcraft.
I say yes, you say no. We await the FAQ.
It seems clear to me that the rules as currently written don't make it easy to discern which object is the bonded object, even though I think for the feature to be remotely balanced it needs to be almost trivial to discern.
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Bonded objects that are Strange
A wig.
Tongue ring.
Tattoo(maybe, thoughts?).
Earring.
Your shirt(your adventuring, how many adventurers change clothes as they slog through the swamps/forests/underground death trap?).
A luck rabbit's foot.
Your left/right shoe.
Your glass eye.
*******
For now, that is all.
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FAQ not needed. If I'm wearing, say, a ring as a bonded item but have not yet used the option to enchant it, it does not glow as a magic item. NOWHERE does it say the ring would, it is a mundane item albeit of masterwork quality, that is all. Furthermore, not being a magical item, it does not take up a ring "slot". So I can be wearing two magical rings, several mundane rings, and a mundane bonded object ring. Which one are you going to try to sunder?
The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
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The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
I believe it serves as a focus for your spellcasting abilites, even if it isn't a magical device.
Much like a holy symbol for certain cleric spells actually. The symbol isn't magical but increases your spellcasting ability by allowing to cast those spells that need it.
Awesome! Somebody is going to step up to the plate.
Alright here we go:
Bubba, Wizard level 13, Human, Enchanter School
Str 8
Dex 15+3 for Wondrous Item #1 of Dex
Con 12+2 for Wondrous Item #2 of Con
Int 21+5 for Wondrous Item#3 of Int
Wis 13+1 for Wondrous Item#4 of Wis
Cha 14+4 for Wondrous Item#5 of Cha
AC 18 (+4 for Mage Armor) Touch AC is the same
HP 90
Saves
4 (+3 for cloak/+2 for Con) +9
4 (+3 for cloak/+4 for Dex) +11
8 (+3 for cloak/+2 for Wis) +13
Feats
Improved Initiative
Improved Familiar (Imp)
Leadership (Leadership score 13 for level + 4 for Cha - 1 for Aloofness - 2 for Familiar = 14, I used the assumptions about Aloofness and such that you presented my Leadership score to 14 - he has an 10th level Cohort)
Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Combat Casting
Spell Penetration
Weapon Focus Ray
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Skills
Appraise +12
Bluff +24 (+3 for Circlet)
Diplomacy +24
Disguise +24
Fly +10
Heal +3
Intimidate +24 (+3 for Circlet)
All Knowledges (except Planes) +12
Knowledge (Planes) +20
Linguistics +15
Perception +12
Sense Motive +12
Spellcraft +24
Stealth +5
Survival +3
UMD +20 (+3 for Circlet)
Gear (It doesn’t really matter what each Wondrous item is so I just numbered them, but I did not go over the standard number of slots)
Wondrous Item #1 of Dex+3 (9,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #2 of Con +2 (4,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #3 of Int+5 (25,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #4 of Wis+1 (1,0000 GP)
Wondrous Item #5 of Cha +4 (16,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #6 of +1 Luck Bonus to AC (2,500 GP)
Wondrous Item #7 of +1 Dodge Bonus to AC (2,500 GP)
Wondrous Item #8 of +2 Deflection Bonus to AC (8,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #9 Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000 GP)
Wondrous Item #10 Circlet of Persuasion (4,500 GP)
Wand of Enervation (21,000 GP)
Total 102,500
Permanent Spells
Arcane Sight (7,500 GP)
Darkvision (5,000 GP)
See Invisibilty (5,000 GP)
Total 17,500
My spell book is worth about 14,000 (more than x2 what you estimated your spell list)
2 Gems Worth 2,500 GP Each to power Limited Wish
And 1000 GP worth of junk, will call it scrolls and potions
Spells (*indicates a spell he has up all the time)
DC is spell level + 18 (+2 if enchantment)
Spells in Spell Book
0
Ghost Sound
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Arcane Mark
Light
Detect Poison
Ray of Frost
Acid Splash
Flash
Detect Magic
1
Charm Person
Unseen Servant
Endure Elements
Ray of Enfeeblement
Identify
Mage Armor*
Magic Missile
Shield
Ventriloquism
Enlarge Person
Color Spray
2
Detect Thoughts
Darkvision
See Invis
Alter Self
Invisibility
Bull’s Strength
Cat’s Grace
Bear’s Endurance
Fox’s Cunning
Owl’s Wisdom
Eagle’s Splendor
Acid Arrow
Hideous Laughter
Glitterdust
3
Suggestion
Major Image
Haste
Dispel Magic
Nondetection*
Arcane Sight
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Deep Slumber
Fireball
Fly
4
Charm Monster
Greater Invis
Enervation
Dimn Anchor
Black Tentacles
Dimn Door
Mnemonic Enhancer
Polymorph
Scry
Phantasmal Killer
Summon Monster IV
5
Feeblemind
Telekinesis
Prying Eyes
Overland Flight*
Dominate Person
Break Enchantment
Permanency
Summon monster V
6
Planer Binding
Suggestion, Mass
True Seeing
Contingency
Flesh to Stone
Disintegrate
Summon Monster VI
7
Power Word Blind
Limited Wish
Summon Monster VII
Typically Memorized Spells
1
Charm Person x2
Mage Armor
Shield
Ventriloquism
Magic Missile (uses 2 slots)
2
Hideous Laughter
Acid Arrow
Alter Self
Bull’s Strength
Detect Thoughts
Invisibility
Glitterdust
3
Suggestion
Haste
Dispel Magic x 2
Nondetection*
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
4
Charm Monster
Dimension Door
Dimensional Anchor
Scry
Polymorph
Black Tentacles
Mneumonic Enhancer
5
Dominate Person x2
Overland Flight
Telekinesis
Summon Monster V
6
Mass Suggestion
True Seeing
Flesh to Stone
Summon Monster VI
7
Power Word Blind
Limited Wish
Summon Monster VII
Other Stuff:
Contingency (When I snap my fingers I turn Invisible)
My familiar can use the Wand of Enervation on a roll of 5 or higher
I have every skill that you do at only 1 point lower and I have Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, and a host of knowledge skills. I don't have to rely on Planar Binding, but I can use it if I want. i can actually kill something by myself and have a legitimate AC.
I just made Bubba today, with a little thought I could do better, but he is still better on paper than the character you posted.
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The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
I beleive it serves as a focus for your spellcasting abilites, even if it isn't a magical device.
Much like a holy symbol for certain cleric spells actually. The symbol isn't magical but increases your spellcasting ability by allowing to cast those spells that need it.
Maybe, and that would make it really easy to identify. I'm simply saying it isn't intended to be an indecipherable secret.
Awesome! Somebody is going to step up to the plate.
Alright here we go:
Bubba, Wizard level 13, Human, Enchanter School
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm looking over your character sheet and it's not making a whole lot of sense to me.
Explain how you got, for example, Intimidate +24. You put 13 skill points in it and you've got +4 for your Charisma. You've got +1 from Where'd the other +7 come from?
You've got a +5 Int wondrous item, but where did you get it from? A headband of vast intelligence +4 is 16,000 and you couldn't wear that anyway as your headband of alluring charisma +4 is there. Are you aware that changing the slot of an item doubles it's cost?
Honestly, your character sheet doesn't make sense. These are just -some- of the problems.
Take your time in fixing all the problems with it and I'll check it out again.
1) Intimidate +24: 13 Skill Ranks, +4 Charisma, +3 Circlet of Persuasion (just like you), and +4 bonus from Enchanting Smile (Su) from being an enchanter.
2) I have the Craft Wondrous Item feat I can make a T-Shirt of Coolness (+4 to Charisma) and a Headband of Intellect +5, I don't have to have them all be the same thing they are in the book. If you really want me to go through and tell you what slot each item takes up I will, but really it's irrelevant. I didn't do anything weird with the feat, I just bought items with bonuses straight off the chart.
3) I made the character in Hero Lab, so the math should all add up, but if there is anything else you don't understand let me know.
Are you aware that changing the slot of an item doubles it's cost?
Actually it doesn't, not taking up a slot doubles it's cost.
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I think sorcerers are superior for a one-shot dungeon delve. Or when you get dropped into something when you don't know what's going on. Or when the GM does a "fighting without weapons" segment.
But in a long game, where you have time to research stuff and put up permanent spells and scry on your enemies? Yeah, wizards rock that casbah.
No, you don't. But it doubles the cost to put the item in other than it's default slot. So, you calculated your WBL expenditures wrong.
You're wrong about that, but if it makes you feel better I'll use gear straight out of the book, and spend the two feats on something else.
FAQ not needed. If I'm wearing, say, a ring as a bonded item but have not yet used the option to enchant it, it does not glow as a magic item. NOWHERE does it say the ring would, it is a mundane item albeit of masterwork quality, that is all. Furthermore, not being a magical item, it does not take up a ring "slot". So I can be wearing two magical rings, several mundane rings, and a mundane bonded object ring. Which one are you going to try to sunder?
The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
The book says it is masterwork. It does not get any clearer than that.
Maybe, and that would make it really easy to identify. I'm simply saying it isn't intended to be an indecipherable secret.The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
I beleive it serves as a focus for your spellcasting abilites, even if it isn't a magical device.
Much like a holy symbol for certain cleric spells actually. The symbol isn't magical but increases your spellcasting ability by allowing to cast those spells that need it.
That is incorrect. I explained earlier that by the book the item only needs to be held or worn. If I am wearing 10 rings there is no way to know which one is the bonded item. I understand how you feel, but the rules do not support your opinion. All the item does is give you one free spell a day. It really is not all that great.
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Maybe, and that would make it really easy to identify. I'm simply saying it isn't intended to be an indecipherable secret.
That is incorrect. I explained earlier that by the book the item only needs to be held or worn. If I am wearing 10 rings there is no way to know which one is the bonded item. I understand how you feel, but the rules do not support your opinion. All the item does is give you one free spell a day. It really is not all that great.
The FAQ will decide. You have an assumption that the arcane bonded weapon, despite having a magical ability, does not show as magical and I go the other way.
Yes, it has to be masterwork just like any magic item has to be masterwork in order to be imbued with arcane power. The "not made of special material" is so you don't try to get adamantine stuff for free, since your Arcane Bonded item is free.
It is an item that has a magical ability, comparable to a spell storing ring.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic-items/rings#TOC-Ring-of-S pell-Storing-Minor
Nowhere in the description of a spell storing ring does it include "Detects as magic" or "Identifies as magic by spellcraft check" because it is understood it is magical because it stores spells.
Just like an arcane bonded item.
I'm not saying you don't have an argument, but it is an assumption you are making that it does not detect as magic, or that identifying a wizards arcane bonded weapon is not something that skill checks would allow.
I feel if it had the ability to hide being the arcane object of a caster, that would be a special ability in a game where every other object, regardless of how obscure, can be identified with a proper skill check.
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The book says it is masterwork. It does not get any clearer than that.
FAQ not needed. If I'm wearing, say, a ring as a bonded item but have not yet used the option to enchant it, it does not glow as a magic item. NOWHERE does it say the ring would, it is a mundane item albeit of masterwork quality, that is all. Furthermore, not being a magical item, it does not take up a ring "slot". So I can be wearing two magical rings, several mundane rings, and a mundane bonded object ring. Which one are you going to try to sunder?
The arcane bonded item increases your spell casting abilities, including allowing you to cast an additional spell. Any other object that provided those abilities would be considered a magic item, and would function in the same way. The fact that it ceases to have these abilities when out of your possession implies it has arcane powers when you do wield it.
So I disagree with you, and a FAQ is still needed.
In order for any object to have magical abilities added to it, it must be masterwork. That means nothing.
I did a separate post, hopefully we'll get an answer there. It's somewhat off topic here anyway.
Maybe, and that would make it really easy to identify. I'm simply saying it isn't intended to be an indecipherable secret.
That is incorrect. I explained earlier that by the book the item only needs to be held or worn. If I am wearing 10 rings there is no way to know which one is the bonded item. I understand how you feel, but the rules do not support your opinion. All the item does is give you one free spell a day. It really is not all that great.The FAQ will decide. You have an assumption that the arcane bonded weapon, despite having a magical ability, does not show as magical and I go the other way.
Yes, it has to be masterwork just like any magic item has to be masterwork in order to be imbued with arcane power. The "not made of special material" is so you don't try to get adamantine stuff for free, since your Arcane Bonded item is free.
It is an item that has a magical ability, comparable to a spell storing ring.
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic-items/rings#TOC-Ring-of-S pell-Storing-Minor
Nowhere in the description of a spell storing ring does it include "Detects as magic" or "Identifies as magic by spellcraft check" because it is understood it is magical because it stores spells.
Just like an arcane bonded item.
I'm not saying you don't have an argument, but it is an assumption you are making that it does not detect as magic, or that identifying a wizards arcane bonded weapon is not something that skill checks would allow.
I feel if it had the ability to hide being the arcane object of a caster, that would be a special ability in a game where every other object, regardless of how obscure, can be identified with a proper skill check.
The item is not any more magical than a holy symbol. It does not hold the spell. My assertion is not an assumption it is a fact. A fact was a fact even before people knew it was true.
The ring of spell storing is called out as a magic item so that is a terrible comparison. Do you have a quote that shows "any" magic item has to be masterwork?It is not so much that the item is hidden. It is just the simple fact that there is not auto-detect on it.
The only reason people can pick out the holy symbol is because it is presented every time the cleric uses it.
There is no fluff or mechanical reason for you opinion.
You see how I gave a game reason as to how the holy symbol is recognized. You have to do the same for the bonded item if you wish to be taken seriously.
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The item is not any more magical than a holy symbol. It does not hold the spell. My assertion is not an assumption it is a fact. A fact was a fact even before people knew it was true.
The ring of spell storing is called out as a magic item so that is a...
You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
Again, I posted another thread, where this discussion better belongs.
The item is not any more magical than a holy symbol. It does not hold the spell. My assertion is not an assumption it is a fact. A fact was a fact even before people knew it was true.
The ring of spell storing is called out as a magic item so that is a...You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
Again, I posted another thread, where this discussion better belongs.
What about holy symbols? Like I said one is just as magical or nonmagical(as the case really is), as the other.
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What about holy symbols? Like I said one is just as magical or nonmagical(as the case really is), as the other.
The item is not any more magical than a holy symbol. It does not hold the spell. My assertion is not an assumption it is a fact. A fact was a fact even before people knew it was true.
The ring of spell storing is called out as a magic item so that is a...You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
Again, I posted another thread, where this discussion better belongs.
See the other thread. But while I'm here, from the description of bonded items.
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities" meaning the object inherently has magical abilities (casting any spell you know), and you can add additional ones to those abilities.
A holy symbol is easy to identify, if you want to say the same about a bonded item we can agree. Otherwise, waiting for the developers.
Several of the Wizard's spells are made permanent (ie. expensive when an enemy caster dispels them)
I really don't see that happening a whole lot, excepting when the enemy casters are run by GMs who are used to 3.X and don't really understand Pathfinder. The dispels are fairly terrible in Pathfinder -- if you don't have a better option in combat, you probably should be running for your life or trying to broker some kind of surrender deal.
Many of the Wizard's skills are substantially lower than mine (forex. UMD, Intimidate, Bluff, etc.). That shouldn't be surprising.
UMD- Man you just love that skill. I really only got it so my familiar could use wands. If I need to emulate the spell of another class I always have Limited Wish.
Let's look at all the social skills together- Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. And I would say that Sense Motive is also a social skill.
Bluff and Intimidate- +4 advantage LT
Diplomacy and Sense Motive- +13 and +12 advantage Bubba
In two skills you have a significant advantage. In the other two I have an overwhelming advantage- it's not even close.
On the other hand, the Wizard has several skills that my Sorcerer doesn't.
Yeah, like almost every skill in the game. You have a better score than me in three skills (by a total of +16). I have a better score than you in a dozen or more skills notably Perception, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, and every Knowledge skill.
The Wizard's save DC is lower than mine (18 vs. 19), though Enchantment DCs are the same (but that costs the Wizard a feat).
You have a better DC than me in Detect Thoughts, and Telekinesis. That's it.
Most saves are marginally better than mine (1 point better)
Yep, better saves by +1,+2, and +1. And an AC that's 7 points better (11 with a Shield up)- again an overwhelming advantage. I also bet I have more HP (You still haven't answered that question).
Several of the Wizard's spells are made permanent (ie. expensive when an enemy caster dispels them)
Yeah that would suck. I just hope that hypothetical caster has 17,500 GP worth of gear so that when I kill him and hock his stuff I can get my spells turned back on.
Seriously, the advantage of having those three spells on all the time is well worth the risk. Do you go around casting See Invisible a lot. Probably not, only when you know that their is something invisible around.
Action economy- You turn invisible, I can already see you. I turn invisible you have to spend a turn to see me, and with Contingency I can turn invisible with a snap of my fingers.
The Wizard has fewer disposable items (not surprising considering he has a -substantially- lower UMD).
I know. You just pimp the UMD. You can use scrolls, I'll just use Limited Wish if I have to.
The imp is a nice familiar and as a character above 8th level, the Wizard can get an Imp conselor. SUch an Imp can sneak almost as well as my Pseudodragon (the Imp's invis at will causes a -20 to the target's perception roll, but the Pseudodragon has a +19 to stealth and that bonus isn't vulnerable to the long list of spells which detect invisibility). Such an Imp can cast commune once a week and can cast Beast Shape II on it's self (kinda cool to turn it into a giant eagle or a horse). These are nice abilities. The Pseudodragon can fly faster and has a longer reach on it's telepathy. The imp is extraplaner and, so, vulnerable to things like protection from evil (hmm..I wonder what would happen if an enemy cast magic circle on the Wizard..? Would it force the Imp away from the Wizard and, so, make the Imp easy to kill?) On the other hand, the Imp has opposable thumbs and the Sorcerer does have a very high UMD - which the Imp could use to cast spells on his own. This deserves more thought.
Which begs the question, why don't you have any wands? Your familiar can use one 80% of the time. A wand of scorching ray would give you some much needed offense. Again action economy. you have one, I have two with the imp or three on the first turn if I use Contingency.
The Wizard has Planer Binding, but I'm not sure why. He's got a +7 (+12 if he uses the deluxe magic circle) to the opposed charisma check. Most everything he'll be trying to bind will have about an 18 Cha. So, he can make that roll, but the bound creature has a reasonably good chance of escaping. It's like playing with nitro glycerin. He should leave the binding to the professionals. My Sorcerer (again, with the...
I really don't need it. I can Summon almost anything you can Bind. I have the creature at my disposal without having the mayor of every town we go to say, "You're not bringing that thing in here." Seriously, you can't exactly take those things everywhere. It takes you 10 minutes to get a creature and if it's Banished or Dismissed you're screwed. Me, if they Banish my Summon monster VII, I still have VI and V.
Let's look at all the social skills together- Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. And I would say that Sense Motive is also a social skill.
Bluff and Intimidate- +4 advantage LT
Diplomacy and Sense Motive- +13 and +12 advantage Bubba
In two skills you have a significant advantage. In the other two I have an overwhelming advantage- it's not even close.
Strangely, LilithsThralls doesn't seem to value Sense Motive or Diplomacy in a manipulator/puppet master/master of trickery type character.
Of course, what we really need to do is outline what the Wizard/Sorcerer's role is and explain how they run their operations - assuming they're making best use of their minions/leadership to create a powerful organised system.
Note: I'm not talking about 'roles in general' but rather 'role you are building your character to perform'. ..and no, I don't just mean 'Tank' 'DPS' etc... if you want to build for whatever you believe those roles to be - go for it! I am talking about your role as you personally define it.
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Interestingly, the Wizard could take Linguistics, Fabricate and numerous Divination spells that a Sorcerer would likely avoid due to their constrained spell selection.
Well, Fabricate can be used to make things in a round. Linguistics is a class skill for Wizards. Wizards have high intelligence. Linguistics is based on intelligence.
What does Lingusitics allow us to do?
Create or Detect Forgeries: Forgery requires writing materials appropriate to the document being forged. To forge a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person, you need only to have seen a similar document before, and you gain a +8 bonus on your check. To forge a signature, you need an autograph of that person to copy, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. To forge a longer document written in the hand of some particular person, a large sample of that person's handwriting is needed.
Now, lets have a look at Bluff..
..under modifiers to the Bluff check we find that if you possess convincing proof you can gain up to a +10 bonus on the check.
So, with a few divination spells (if needed), some knowledge checks (if needed) and the use of Fabricate (if needed) to convert materials when needed (say, a fresh parchment into an ancient parchment, a book into a stack of royal proclamations, one house's signet ring into another..) the Wizard can easily gain a significant bonus to their bluff check.
However, note: Creating a Forgery takes anywhere from 1 minute per page to 1d4 minutes per page. So, the Wizard will need to be clever and plan ahead.
Of course, this kind of tactic would be best used on key figures, targeted for their position and influence. It would seem unlikely that the Wizard would bother with such steps to dupe a guard or minion.
::
Really tho, this brings up the key difference in general between Wizards and Sorcerers.
Briefly:
Wizards favour preparation, planning and carefully orchestrated operations. They have the intelligence to develop, initiate and execute complex strategies.
Wizards adapt slowly to immediate changes within their favored scenario. However, they adapt quickly to actual changes of scenario. Overall, a Wizard can be built to dominate in a wider range of scenarios.
Sorcerers Sorcerers specialising for a scenario can dominate within that scenario. The more a Sorcerer focuses their limited resource on a specialising for a scenario the greater the level of their domination within that scenario. However, over specialization leaves the Sorcerer vulnerable to changes in the immediate scenario. Changes of scenario can devastate a Sorcerer to a much greater degree than a Wizard.
Incident and Extended Scenarios: So, we have a class that's great at dealing with Extended Scenarios: Scenarios that are ongoing and connected to form a complex whole - for example, setting up an organised force, subverting power within a nation, researching the breeding habits of goblins or taking out a key target/enemy.
..and we have a class that excels at Incident Scenarios: Short, on-the-fly scenarios that typically exist as a series of individual events rather than an extended, connected chain of events.
Now, as a series of Incident Scenarios can form an Extended Scenario and an Extended Scenario can quickly be broken into Incident Scenarios, you can see that things are rarely static. Ideally, both classes should always be attempting to change events to create their favoured Scenario.
Finally, this is not to say a Sorcerer cannot be built and played to deal with Extended Scenarios nor does this mean a Wizard cannot be built to deal with Incident Scenarios, simply that each class's design favours one of the two.
::
In other words: You can't be a specialist in everything.
With specialisation comes domination - within your specialty. The price you pay is in adaptability. Hence the need for a balance or resources to compensate.
Typically, within a campaign, these extra compensating resources are called 'The rest of the adventuring party'.
Interestingly, the Wizard could take Linguistics, Fabricate and numerous Divination spells that a Sorcerer would likely avoid due to their constrained spell selection.
An interesting point. Wizard's can use several spells that a Sorcerer probably has to pass on, like:
Permanency- As a Sorcerer I'm certainly not wasting a slot on this spell
Contingency- I've heard people argue for Sorcerer's to take it, but really as a Sorcerer do I want one of my 6th Level Spells to be one I only need to cast every 12 days.
Personally I think that the real strength of the Sorcerer lies in repetitive combination.
Round #1 - Summon Monster X
Round #2 - Haste
Round #3- Best Attack Spell (I like Scorching Ray and Enervation)
A Sorcerer can do this in every encounter, a Wizard once maybe twice.
Strangely, LilithsThralls doesn't seem to value Sense Motive or Diplomacy in a manipulator/puppet master/master of trickery type character.
The sense motive is the strange part to me. How would her character know that the NPC is only pretending to believe her without sense motive? I can only assume the NPC tells here she is lying if she fails a bluff check as opposed to playing along to set her up later. Even as one of her binded captives I would play along if it were to my convenience.
Interestingly, the Wizard could take Linguistics, Fabricate and numerous Divination spells that a Sorcerer would likely avoid due to their constrained spell selection.
An interesting point. Wizard's can use several spells that a Sorcerer probably has to pass on, like:
Permanency- As a Sorcerer I'm certainly not wasting a slot on this spell
Contingency- I've heard people argue for Sorcerer's to take it, but really as a Sorcerer do I want one of my 6th Level Spells to be one I only need to cast every 12 days.
Personally I think that the real strength of the Sorcerer lies in repetitive combination.
Round #1 - Summon Monster X
Round #2 - Haste
Round #3- Best Attack Spell (I like Scorching Ray and Enervation)A Sorcerer can do this in every encounter, a Wizard once maybe twice.
My sorcerers have always had a basic attack plan for lack of better terms also.
I've posted this character before in an old wiz vs. sorcerer thread, but here she is again. It is a wizard character I play, and our playstyle is very much the same (though I rely more on Diplomacy than Bluff). This is her at level 13 with WBL, assuming about 12 encounters per level, 4 encounters per day, hence 3 days per level or 36 adventuring days worth of crafting. I think that's a fair amount of "mobile downtime" to craft without making outlandish assumptions about doubling the wizard's WBL. To be fair she is also a Loremaster, which some will no doubt leap upon as cheating as this is an assessment of the wizard. Too bad, that's what she is :P. Also using some options in the APG such as alternate racials and traits. I couldn't precisely tell what point buy you (LT) were using. We use 25.
25 point buy. Female Elven Wizard 10(Diviner)/Loremaster 3.
S-8 (-2)
D-12 (2) +2 Racial 14
C-14 (5) -2 Racial +2 Belt 14
I-17 (13) +2 Racial +3 Level +4 Headband 26
W-10 (0)
Ch-15 (7)
Initiative-+13 Perception +20 Darkvision, Arcane Sight
Traits-Suspicious, Reactionary
Racial-Dream 1/day, +1 DC Divination (Dreamspeaker-APG)
Feats-Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Agument Summoning, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Penetration, Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana), Quicken Spell, Magical Aptitude, Skill Focus (Diplomacy).
Class Features-Bonded Item: Ring (1/day cast spell from spellbook), Forewarned (+5 Initiative, act on surprise round), Diviner's Fortune, Scrying Adept (effective permanent Detect Scrying). Secret of Inner Strength (+2 Will), Applicable Knowledge (Leadership maybe? Maybe Iron Will?)
Skills-Appraise 1 (+12) Bluff (+18) Diplomacy 13 (+27) Fly 4 (+15*) Heal 4 (+7) Knowledges: Arcana 13 (+31) Dungeoneering 7 (+19) Engineering 1 (+13) Geography 7 (+19) History 13*(Headband) (+25) Local 7 (+19) Nature 4 (+16) Nobility 4 (+16) Planes 13 (+25) Religion 7 (+19) Linguistics 13 (+24) Perception 13 (+20) Sense Motive (+17), Spellcraft 13 (+28) UMD 6 (+19)
Spellbook-Note: Spells beyond 2/level assume purchase from another wizard, not from a scroll. Much cheaper :)
0th-all but Necro and Evocation
1st-Alarm, Identify, Charm Person, Mage Armor, Color Spray, Comprehend Language, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Identify, Magic Missile, Mount, Shield, Summon Monster I, True Strike
2nd-Glitterdust, Invisibility, Knock, Hideous Laughter, Rope Trick, SM II, Web, See Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Darkvision, Resist Energy, Eagle's Splendor
3rd-Haste, Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Arcane Sight, Fly, Slow, SM III, Heroism, Wind Wall
4th-Scrying, Enervation, Wall of Ice, Black Tentacles, Shadow Conjuration, SM IV, Rainbow Pattern, Locate Creature
5th-Dominate Person, Prying Eyes, Overland Flight, Permanency, Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Prying Eyes, Dismissal, Permanency, Lesser Planar Binding
6th-Repulsion, Planar Binding, SM VI, Wall of Iron, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Contingency
7th-SM VII, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Control Weather, Limited Wish, Reverse Gravity
Gear: Handy Haversack, Metamagic Rods-Extend, Lesser, Silent, Lesser, Focused Spell, Lesser, Reach Spell, Lesser, Quicken, Lesser, Circlet of Persuasion, Headband of Vast Intellect +4 (Sense Motive + Bluff), Belt of Con +2, Eyes of the Eagle. Pearl of Power 1st x 3, 2nd x1. Hat of Disguise. Various scrolls, most 1st and 2nd level spells in spellbook, just in case. Wand of CLW x2. Wand of Enlarge Person. Wand of Silent Image. Wand of Protection from Evil. Homunculus-crafted by another but subservient to me. Several thousand in spell Foci and expensive components, including enough for 2 castings of Limited Wish.
Spell Effects: Continuous-Overland Flight, Mage Armor, Darkvision-already last pretty much all day. Can extend if need be. Permanent Arcane Sight and See Invisibility.
Typical Spells Memorized-
1st(6+D)-Grease, Mage Armor (Cast), Color Spray, Mount, Charm Person,Identify, EMPTY
2nd(6+D)-Glitterdust, Invisibility, Darkvision (Cast), Web, Detect Thoughts, EMPTY
3rd(6+D)-Haste, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, SM III, Clairvoyance, EMPTY
4th(6+D)-Scrying, Black Tentacles, SM IV, Rainbow Pattern EMPTYx2
5th(4+D)-Prying Eyes, Teleport, Overland Flight (Cast),Lesser Planar Binding, EMPTY
6th(3+D)-True Seeing, Repulsion, SM VI EMPTY
7th(2+D) Reverse Gravity, Limited Wish, Vision
In all practical applications you won't need more than getting a DC 20 UMD. In combat healing I'll give the nod to the Sorcerer, but that's sort of an oh crap moment for a party anyway when the arcanist is healing by scroll. In this application a limited wish for Breath of Life or mass CLW is nearly as cheap as a divine scroll of such, but can be so many other things as well if need be.
I like summoning more than binding to tell the truth. They just obey. But binding has its uses, for more long-term things. Ulaeniir will typically have one creature dominated as a meat shield, and charm is for the emergency OOPS when negotiations don't go as planned.
Permanent flight and arcane sight are just game winners in a lot of places. Surveying the battlefield and seeing every magical aura present is immensely useful. Ulaeniir will just never be surprised, and she has a decent chance to not be fooled.
Every one tell me that sorcerers connot be adaptable as a wizards..
I really like your spell list.
Personally, as I indicated last post, I believe that a sorcerer can be built for adaptation. However, many people build them to specialise in one role.
However, as your spell lists demonstrates, a sorcerer with a flexible, varied spell list can be very effective.
Still, generally speaking, the sorcerer is still constrained by their spells known and the inability to pick up/swap in possibly more appropriate spells for the extended scenarios.
For example, the campaign starts of with a heavy social theme. The Sorcerer is built to charm and control targets. After a few levels the campaign starts turning towards a more undead related theme - the Sorcerer must now either generalise or take spells that favour the new scenario.
Contrast this with the Wizard - he simply stops using so many charm spells and starts collecting other spells that suit the new scenario.
Granted, the Wizard is not going to suddenly dominate as they will still be lacking in appropriate spells. However, the change doesn't effect the Wizard so adversely compared to the Sorcerer who cannot easily adapt their spell selection.
This what I mean by when I say that Wizards find is easier to adapt.
In two skills you have a significant advantage. In the other two I have an overwhelming advantage- it's not even close.
Intimidate and Diplomacy are largely redundant. Intimidate can be used when the target is about to kill you and can be used to demoralize. Diplomacy has lasting effects. Other than that, they are the same. Note that for every 5 points by which you succeed, the target's attitude improves by a full step. So, having 4 points over you is significant as it almost guarantees a full step improvement in attitude.
So, other than their key differences they are the same?
[QUOTE="
Demigorgon 8 My Baby
"]You have a better DC than me in Detect Thoughts, and Telekinesis. That's it.
And Disintegrate and Baleful Polymorph (off the staff), but the thing is, I didn't spend an expensive feat slot in order to do it.
A wizard's feat slots are less expensive because..
..they get more feats.
Which is another advantage.
[QUOTE="
Demigorgon 8 My Baby
"]And an AC that's 7 points better
Don't kid yourself. Your AC still sucks. On the other hand, it's really easy for me to get a pretty hefty meat shield (rather than the comparative paper mache that Monster Summoning offers). Sucks to be you.
It's still better than yours. Which is an advantage. Highlighting advantages is rather important when comparing the advantages one class may or may not have over another.
[QUOTE="
Demigorgon 8 My Baby
"]
Action economy- You turn invisible, I can already see you. I turn invisible you have to spend a turn to see me, and with Contingency I can turn invisible with a snap of my fingers.
Since it'll cost you 17,500 gp per every other encounter or so, I'll let you have that advantage in action economy. It's not very cost effective.
It's an advantage - the cost is dependent on how much you value the advantage.
[QUOTE="Demigorgon 8 My Baby
"]I can Summon almost anything you can Bind
I can bind a Cuoatl....
As the poster makes clear, he can summon something in a round. Binding takes time. If we insist on assuming the best possible scenario for the Sorcerer then we must assume the best possible scenario for the Wizard, specifically time to prepare a specialised spell list and access to lots of spells best suited to the scenario.
What I've said is, "Sense Motive, also, would be nice. I did admit early on in this discussion that lack of skill points is the Sorcerer's fundamental weakness.
BenignFascist wrote:
The Sorcerer has Linguistics. He has access to the divinations cast by the creatures he binds (such as the cleric divinations cast by the Cuoatl) and he has the ability to cast illusions spontaneously. In addition, he's got a ton of followers who can spy for him and a very high Bluff score. I think he's got his bases covered for what you're talking about
As you imply, the Sorcerer lacks skill points. The Wizard has an easier time picking up Linguistics. The advantage of actual items/forgeries over illusions is obvious: They don't show up to the many methods of magical detection, methods that any smart key figure of power/influence will use to detect trickery. Of course there are other ways of detect forgeries but there are less of them than the number of ways to magically detect magic/pierce illusions/suppress magic etc
::
So far I see you trying to downplay several key advantages possessed by the Wizard while attempting to make the most of an idealised scenario that favours the Sorcerer.
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Still, generally speaking, the sorcerer is still constrained by their spells known and the inability to pick up/swap in possibly more appropriate spells for the extended scenarios.
Ah, but he can always use his high charisma to convince the party rogue to steal the wizard's scroll case of whatever spell I need at the moment and give it to him. :P
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So I can be wearing two magical rings, several mundane rings, and a mundane bonded object ring. Which one are you going to try to sunder?Your neck.. it's easier to get through.
By the time it's not the DC20+level check isn't hard to pull off,
James
Too bad PFRPG doesn't have rules specifically for severing limbs, etc. Because if the wizard is wearing five rings on each hand, I'm not gonna use 10 sunder attempts to get each ring, I'm gonna sunder his *insert favorite dirty word here* wrists.
Hell, even if they were just a distraction, I've removed his ability to cast any spell with a somatic component. (I'm assuming that not many somatic components consist of waving around a spurting stub while screaming in pain...unless you're playing Call of Cthulhu. Probably semi-common with Mythos spells.) And unless he's damn good at manipulating material components with stubs, those as well.
But, if they are so important, then why not leave it to the class which trumps all others in knowledge - the Bard?
Because, in my experience, a party is much more likely to have a wizard than a bard. (Even if, in the long run, the bard does pull ahead in the knowledge skills by no small amount.)
1° level identify enlarge person protection for evil grease charme magic armor silent image feather fall
2° level invisibility web glitter dust mirror image scorcing ray hideous laughter resist energy gust of wind
3° level dispel magic slow haste tiny hut fireball stinking cloud wind wall
4° level dimensional door confusion scrying black tentacles invis. Greater enervation resilient sphere dimensional anchor
5° level overland flight feeblemind wall of force telekinesis trasmute rock to mud summon monster 5 seeming
6° level true seeing dispell magic greater disintegration chain lightning contingency programmed image anti magic field
7° level teleportation greater arcane sight greater spell turning mage's magnificent . summon monster 7 reverse gravity project image
8° level power word stun moment of prescience maze mind blank horrid wilting polimorph any object prying eyes greater
9° level wish mage's disjunction summon monster 9 time stop prismatic sphere
Thanks for posting that; it's interesting to me to see what kinds of spells people think are good for sorcerers.
That being said, the biggest problem (IMHO) isn't what the sorcerer looks like at level 20, it's what he looks like at lower levels. In terms of versatility, compare the sorcerer vs. the wizard at, say, level 3 or 5 and I think the wizard clearly pulls far ahead there even if he only has the spells he gets for free.
(Again, I'm not here nor have I ever said that the Pathfinder Sorcerer is a weak or bad class, or that it doesn't have its strengths; I just think, overall, it's a half-step behind the Wizard.)
A wizard's feat slots are less expensive because....they get more feats.
Which is another advantage.
He gets two more feats. That's not enough to make feats cheap.
Cheaper. I don't think anyone would claim that feats are ever cheap.
This is still an advantage.
It's still better than yours. Which is an advantage. Highlighting advantages is rather important when comparing the advantages one class may or may not have over another.
Having a meat shield is better than having a sucky AC.
This is still an advantage over the Sorcerer.
It's an advantage - the cost is dependent on how much you value the advantage.
It's an option. It's only an advantage if you think that paying a crazy high price every other encounter or so for something of moderate worth is worth it. I don't
Why would it be every encounter? Are we assuming that every encounter involves enemies dispelling the Wizard's permanent spells?
Why would we assume this?
As the poster makes clear, he can summon something in a round.
A combat round. You know combat? It's that time when you want to get the most value out of each round available to you. Taking a combat round to cast something isn't as good as having that done before combat starts.
It's easier than binding a Cuoatl during combat. You're assuming, once again, an idealised scenario that favours the Sorcerer.
If the Sorcerer can bind a Cuotal before combat then the Wizard can cast Summon Monster a round or two before combat.
If we insist on assuming the best possible scenario for the Sorcerer then we must assume the best possible scenario for the Wizard, specifically time to prepare a specialised spell list and access to lots of spells best suited to the scenario.
bind a Cuoatl.Except, we aren't assuming the best possible scenario for the Sorcerer. We're assuming that he makes a regular practice of binding creatures. And, considering his +17 to his charisma contest, that's a valid assumption.
Unfortunately, it's an assumption that utterly skews the discussion, moving it into the realm of 'What's typical for your campaign.'
If we make this assumption about the Sorcerer we can make the assumption that the Wizard makes frequent uses of Banishment/also succesfully casts Planar Binding/has a Dominate Halfling Ninja who brandishes twin Rods of Negation etc..
The advantage of actual items/forgeries over illusions is obvious
They each have their respective advantages. But where it comes to needing an actual item, the Sorcerer has a cohort who can provide it for him.
..and the Wizard can cast Illusions without needing a cohort.
Once again we see Leadership being desperately used to compensate for the Sorcerer's lack of ability.
So far I see you *continuing* to downplay several key advantages possessed by the Wizard while attempting to make the most of an idealised scenario that favours the Sorcerer.
::
I also think that it goes to playstyle. With a fixed group of players or at least a fixed core group you will fall into routines. You will then begin to think that this is the only way things work, or the only proper way.
This. Well said.
Bard vs. Wizard knowledge skill comparison
In terms of the actual ranks/modifiers I absolutely agree with you -- but don't forget that at 5th level, the bard can take 20 on a knowledge check every day. Although his theoretical knowledge skill rolls/totals are still behind the wizard at that point, in practice, I think being able to take 20 on a check when it really counts pulls the bard ahead at that point in practical if not absolute terms.
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet that I think is sort of interesting (and I'm wondering if it's just my play style or not) is that, spell-use-wise (and assuming an adventure/day in which the SWAT-style 15 minute adventuring day is not possible), the wizard plays more conservatively and the sorcerer plays more aggressively.
Conservatively/aggressively doesn't exactly capture my meaning, so I will illustrate with an example:
I'm a level 2 wizard, and I've prepared a variety of spells, including one sleep spell. When a fight comes up in which I could use sleep, I'm hesitant to do so -- does the party seem to have this covered pretty well without my casting sleep? If so, I'll tend to save it for a possible future fight in which I think they really need the help. I'll spend a lot of fights doing almost nothing because I'm jealously hoarding my limited resources for the moment they'll make the biggest impact.
I'm a level 2 sorcerer, and one of the two spells I know is sleep. When a fight comes up in which I could use sleep, I do so immediately -- because at that moment, I'm in a fight where I know one of my limited selection of spells will be helpful and can help conserve other party resources, whereas I don't know if every fight thereafter will involve huge centipedes that can't be slept.
Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing in the way they play the two classes?
Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing in the way they play the two classes?
Yes! Nicely expressed!
I'll need to ponder over it to contribute further..
Nice one.. something to think about..