Zaister |
"If he has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from his specialty school."
All these changes, and I'm already house ruling a bunch of them...
What changes? This rule was the same in 3.5.
Frostflame |
Well upon closer inspection of the sorcerer alot of the bonus feats from the bloodline make him sub-optimal. Take a look at the abyssal bloodline for example. Power attack, cleave, Improved bull rush and sunder. Yeah he might get an inherent bonus to strength due to bloodline powers, but for the Sorcerer to enter meele combat wouldbe foolish. One full attack and he is dropped. By far the only comparable Sorcerer is the arcane bloodline one who gets many powers of the wizard and feats that would make him optimal in combat.
dulsin |
Let me compare these two classes in my own way:
A group of pesky adventurers break into your tower and start towards your room.1. Sorcerer breaks out the defensive spells and goes to stop them hoping that choices of spells he did through his whole life is going to be enough (and that those pesky adventurers didn't research that sorcerer's abilities).
2. Wizard is interrupted in the middle of his experiments. As he is was not ready to defend himself he sends some magical spies to see the power of his opposition while teleporting himself to safety. After finding out all he can of his opponents, he prepares the right combination of spells and comes back to kill them with minimal danger.
That is a silly argument. Assuming that a sorcerer has no ability to plan and will rush into a fight with no knowledge while a wizard will always take time a careful planning is an argument based on stereo types. If he was a Latin sorcerer would he challenge the party to a Tango?
Yes a wizard with enough time and information can be the most formidable opponent on the planet. In your games does the wizard automatically know all the encounter types he will be facing each adventure? Do your adventurers run from every encounter rememorize spells then come back?
Each day the wizard has to pick spells that he feels are going to be useful but don't most wizards end up with a standard spell load out and just stick with it until things don't work?
How is the wizards "power" of picking spells any more powerful than the cleric's or druids?
You will never catch me playing any arcane caster but a sorcerer. Any spells I am missing can be covered by a tube full of scrolls and a few wands.
Dragon Bloodline FTW
Shadow13.com |
Let me compare these two classes in my own way:
A group of pesky adventurers break into your tower and start towards your room.2. Wizard is interrupted in the middle of his experiments. As he is was not ready to defend himself he sends some magical spies to see the power of his opposition while teleporting himself to safety. After finding out all he can of his opponents, he prepares the right combination of spells and comes back to kill them with minimal danger.
...and returns to find the rest of the party slain. D'oh! Too late!
Shadow13.com |
Here's how a wizard can equal a Sorcerer:
1) Choose a small number of spells.
2) Prepare these exact same spells every single day.
Done
As a matter of fact, this method would probably make a wizard much more powerful than a sorcerer.
A wizard focuses on his magic rather than on gimmicky bloodline abilities.
Wizards receive boosts and abilities that make their magic more potent than a Sorcerer's magic.
So if a Wizard chose the same exact spells that a Sorcerer chose, I'd bet that the Wizard would have the advantage.
Instead of loading a wizard up with wide variety of spells and watering him down, specialize in a certain type of magic and become very effective in your niche.
You don't need to have the right spell for EVERY possible situation.
You need to have the right spell for MOST situations.
For example: if you focused on evocation spells only, you could be a damage dealing monster. You might not have any invisibility or bull's strength spells, but that's why they make magic items and potions.
-Archangel- |
-Archangel- wrote:Let me compare these two classes in my own way:
A group of pesky adventurers break into your tower and start towards your room.1. Sorcerer breaks out the defensive spells and goes to stop them hoping that choices of spells he did through his whole life is going to be enough (and that those pesky adventurers didn't research that sorcerer's abilities).
2. Wizard is interrupted in the middle of his experiments. As he is was not ready to defend himself he sends some magical spies to see the power of his opposition while teleporting himself to safety. After finding out all he can of his opponents, he prepares the right combination of spells and comes back to kill them with minimal danger.
That is a silly argument. Assuming that a sorcerer has no ability to plan and will rush into a fight with no knowledge while a wizard will always take time a careful planning is an argument based on stereo types. If he was a Latin sorcerer would he challenge the party to a Tango?
Yes a wizard with enough time and information can be the most formidable opponent on the planet. In your games does the wizard automatically know all the encounter types he will be facing each adventure? Do your adventurers run from every encounter rememorize spells then come back?
Each day the wizard has to pick spells that he feels are going to be useful but don't most wizards end up with a standard spell load out and just stick with it until things don't work?
How is the wizards "power" of picking spells any more powerful than the cleric's or druids?
You will never catch me playing any arcane caster but a sorcerer. Any spells I am missing can be covered by a tube full of scrolls and a few wands.
Dragon Bloodline FTW
No, I am saying that the sorcerer has not choice in the matter. He cannot change the outcome of the battle by running away and coming back later (at least not if the party is at least half competent and has protections from teleporting into their midst), he will have same spells and same options whatever he does.
Wizard on the other hand can try to find out the weakness of his opposition and come with just the right spells for the task at hand.
The sorcerer might have those same spells, but it is less likely to have all the needed ones.
And yes, high level adventurers can run away and come back at their leisure. Even on some time sensitive adventures this is possible.
And we are not comparing wizards to clerics or druids, but sorcerers. It not important how those classes compare.
-Archangel- |
-Archangel- wrote:...and returns to find the rest of the party slain. D'oh! Too late!Let me compare these two classes in my own way:
A group of pesky adventurers break into your tower and start towards your room.2. Wizard is interrupted in the middle of his experiments. As he is was not ready to defend himself he sends some magical spies to see the power of his opposition while teleporting himself to safety. After finding out all he can of his opponents, he prepares the right combination of spells and comes back to kill them with minimal danger.
My example was flawed in a way to present the difference in these two classes NPCs or PC with a tower out of an adventuring party.
The wizard can easily teleport the whole party with him if needed, which is even worse that my first example for the opponents. Then he can at his leisure prepare buffs that will give his party the perfect tools to defeat the pesky adventures with even more ease.
-Archangel- |
Here's how a wizard can equal a Sorcerer:
1) Choose a small number of spells.
2) Prepare these exact same spells every single day.Done
As a matter of fact, this method would probably make a wizard much more powerful than a sorcerer.
A wizard focuses on his magic rather than on gimmicky bloodline abilities.
Wizards receive boosts and abilities that make their magic more potent than a Sorcerer's magic.So if a Wizard chose the same exact spells that a Sorcerer chose, I'd bet that the Wizard would have the advantage.
Instead of loading a wizard up with wide variety of spells and watering him down, specialize in a certain type of magic and become very effective in your niche.
You don't need to have the right spell for EVERY possible situation.
You need to have the right spell for MOST situations.For example: if you focused on evocation spells only, you could be a damage dealing monster. You might not have any invisibility or bull's strength spells, but that's why they make magic items and potions.
There is one flaw in your logic. While a wizard can prepare 2 fireball spells, 2 fly spells and 2 dispel magic spells, the sorcerer has 6 (or 7) lvl 3 spells (which are Fireball, Fly and Dispel Magic) that he can portion at his leisure.
While he wizard will have same 3 spells as the sorcerer he can only ever cast 2 fireball until the next rest while the sorcerer can cast up to 6.KaptainKrunch |
"Well upon closer inspection of the sorcerer alot of the bonus feats from the bloodline make him sub-optimal. Take a look at the abyssal bloodline for example. Power attack, cleave, Improved bull rush and sunder. Yeah he might get an inherent bonus to strength due to bloodline powers, but for the Sorcerer to enter meele combat wouldbe foolish. One full attack and he is dropped. By far the only comparable Sorcerer is the arcane bloodline one who gets many powers of the wizard and feats that would make him optimal in combat."
Abyssal sucks. Look at a good Bloodline, like Abberant.
You can get Improved Initiative, Combat Casting and Silent Spell - all feats I may have taken if I was a wizard (I prefer still spell over silent spell, but there are situations when a quiet spell is good.)
On top of that Aberrant gets Extend Spell for all his polymorph spells, as well as 20' touch attacks, spell resistance, immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits, blindsight, and Damage Reduction. This bloodline would be a great choice for a Transmutation Ray Debuffer God.
Other Bloodlines are similar - Draconic can get Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, and Toughness, and Undead can get Still Spell, Spell Focus, and Combat Casting - just as a couple more examples.
Shadow13.com |
There is one flaw in your logic. While a wizard can prepare 2 fireball spells, 2 fly spells and 2 dispel magic spells, the sorcerer has 6 (or 7) lvl 3 spells (which are Fireball, Fly and Dispel Magic) that he can portion at his leisure.
While he wizard will have same 3 spells as the sorcerer he can only ever cast 2 fireball until the next rest while the sorcerer can cast up to 6.
You're correct. If you want a varied assortment of spells, you'll end up in that situation. Being versatile is a gamble because you're stuck with the spells you prepare. It sounds counterintuitive, but I think too much variety limits the Wizard's options by taking up spell slots.
Here's how I'd make my spell selection:
I'd decide how I want to play. Do I want to be offensive or do I want to focus on buffs?
If I choose to be offensive, I would select spells that do damage. Magic Missile, Fireball, Scorching Ray, Black Tentacles, Lighting Bolt, Ice Storm, etc. Prepare one of each so that you have options to choose from.
If I choose to focus on buffs, I would select spells that have utility and can be used both inside and outside of battle. Enlarge person, greater invisibility, fly, heroism, protection from energy.
It's probably best if you only choose one of each spell so that you don't waste too many spell slots if you can't find a use for a spell.
I'm playing a Sorcerer right now and I constantly get into situations where I find myself saying "Damn! if only I had that spell..." Makes me wish I was a wizard. I'm telling you, the grass is always greener.
Dennis da Ogre |
Here's how a wizard can equal a Sorcerer:
1) Choose a small number of spells.
2) Prepare these exact same spells every single day.Done
Looks to me like "Erect straw man, knock it down". You don't even begin to look at the effects the new bloodline powers, somehow wizards just cast better!!
For example: if you focused on evocation spells only, you could be a damage dealing monster. You might not have any invisibility or bull's strength spells, but that's why they make magic items and potions.
Lets look at your example for a second.
Lets look at spell performance tough using your "Wizard picks X spells per level" theory.
Evoker gets bonus damage of +4/ spell due to specialist power (8th level). Draconic sorceer gets a bonus of +1/ die. So the evoker's fireball does 8d6+4, sorcerer's does 8d6+8... hmm, I'm failing to see how this is a better strategy.
Elementalists get no damage bonus, however they can substitute energy on any spell for free. So while the earth elementalist doesn't do any bonus damage on his fireball his fireball does full damage against creatures with fire resistance. His cone of cold does full damage against ice dragons, his lightning bolts do full damage against air elementals...
If you want to look at 15 level stuff there is things like +2 DC to the school of your choice (arcana bloodline). 2 for 1 summoning (and all summons have DR 8/ good also note the updated summoning lists mean summoning doesn't suck as much at 15th level).
Wizards kick ass in 2 ways, first due to the faster spell progression and second better spell selection. When you start talking about limiting the wizards spell lists their advantage rapidly vaporizes. Bloodline arcana and bloodline powers make sorcerers all around better at the stuff they do cast.
Dennis da Ogre |
Well upon closer inspection of the sorcerer alot of the bonus feats from the bloodline make him sub-optimal. Take a look at the abyssal bloodline for example. Power attack, cleave, Improved bull rush and sunder. Yeah he might get an inherent bonus to strength due to bloodline powers, but for the Sorcerer to enter meele combat wouldbe foolish. One full attack and he is dropped. By far the only comparable Sorcerer is the arcane bloodline one who gets many powers of the wizard and feats that would make him optimal in combat.
Please... don't use silly examples to make a point it makes you look silly rather than making a point.
#1 Abyssal doesn't have the best feat selection
#2 You picked the worst feats in the Abyssal blood lines choices
Abyssal has the following bonus feats
Bonus Feats: Augment Summoning, Cleave, Empower Spell, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge [planes]).
So Abyssal gives you four decent bonus feats, three of which help you be good at what the abyssal bloodline already boosts, summoning. Considering you don't see your third bonus feat until 19th level most characters will only use 2 of the 4.
Also, some folks do make martial sorcerers and the abyssal bloodline does have a melee attack as it's first level power. I'm not saying it's a optimal choice... just that it does happen.
Mirror, Mirror |
I do find some of the arguments here strange...
1) Wizards have a huge number of spells at their disposal
Isn't this assuming things? From their class, they only have, past 1st, 4 spells per level. Really, about the same as the Sorcerer. They can get more, but from where? Will the DM really hand out scrolls for spells you want? Will you really kill an enemy wizard and collect his library? Will you find another wizard and pay him for the privilege to copy from his book? Certain campaigns are more amenable to this than others. And you are still paying to scribe the spell into the book, though much less than in 3.5. That was a good change, at least. And if you have a HUGE spellbook, it can't be very portable, considering the number of pages needed for some spells. Yes, magic item, but that, again, is something external to the class itself. You would have to build the book, take the item creation feat, spend the cash, etc. All this adds to the Wizard having a built-in money sink. The Sorcerer gets no such sink.
2) Wizards have the right spell for the right occasion
Someone else addressed this by asking why the players know what they are about to face? I can't recall a game since 1994 when we knew the abilities and weaknesses of the creature we were about to face. There are always twists, complications, unexpected turns, etc. And I have never, ever, seen a party just back away and attack again without some incredible penalty, calamity, etc. Having played a number of Wizards, I tend to choose spells based on expected uses, and if I leave a slot open, it's usually for a knock spell, breaking a prismatic wall, or some other out-of-combat use. It is useful, mind you, but that disintegrate was supposed to be for the BBEG, not his prismatic shell. OTOH, my sorcerers have chosen their spells very carefully. I may not have the optimal spell, but I likely have at least one good spell that will work, and I spam it. And if something unexpected happens, I can try another spell. It's not like I committed all my spell slots to Lightning Bolt or anything like that. Stuck with a 7th level spell and need something lower? Lucky I took Limited Wish! Ooh, another strange spell needed? Didn't expect that. Limited Wish again! What do you mean the Wizard only memorized it once?
3) Delayed spell progression is insurmountable
Annoying, yes. Beneficial to the Wizards, absolutly. Crippling? No fireball, but I get Scorching Ray for days. No disintegrate, but my Orb spells have no SR! Yeah, yeah, he fly's and teleports before I do. Let him! I hit the Wizard with Enervation until he stops casting! Bottom line, if there is really just that one spell you need, and you can't cast it because you are at an odd level, you can cast it next level. Until then, just cast something else.
4) Wizard specialist powers are good, too
?? Have you actually read them? 3+int single magic missiles that do some bonus damage? Um, I'll cast a 1st level spell, thanks. Half my level in bonus damage to my evocation spells! Hey, great. At 5th level that a plus...2...to my fireball. 5d6 vs 5d6+2. But it's +3 next level! Color me underwhelmed. But 8th level, Wall of Energy, # of rounds equal to my level. That's a whole 4th level spell I don't have to waste on a Wall spell, possibly more. And at 9th, the sorcerer breaths a cone of fire as a supernatural sbility. That's a whole 5th level spell! Not saying the abilities are nothing, they jusy don't measure up.
5) Wizards have magic items to fall back on
Assuming you have the time and money, sure. No argument there. OTOH, the Wizard spends money to scribe a scroll into his spellbook, then money to scribe the spell into a scroll. Looks like you just blew some change to do what you could have done in the first place. But you do it again! The Sorcerer buys the second scroll. Now, he has 2 scrolls, you have 2 scrolls, both cost the same overall, but the Wizard is down the time to create and the money spent to put it into the spellbook. Wizard has a favorite spell and crafts a wand. Pretty cool. Sorcerer casts his favorite spell over and over again. Wizard just paid for more versitility, but the more he uses the very wand that gives him that versitility, the more he is like the Sorcerer. In other words, the less you use your versitility, the less the return on investment. Here, it is important to remember that the single most valuable thing any character has in a fight is his standard action, which you only get one of, and that limitation ofted dictates what you are going to do. Cast, or let the fighter get curb-stomped next round?
6) Sorcerers will have lower CHA due to Multiple Attribute Dependency
I never, ever, failed to max out my caster's casting stat. I suffered low CON, no WIS, suck-tacular DEX, etc., and never failed to max that casting stat. I MAXED THAT STAT ON 25 POINT BUY! An extra skill point or 4 just ain't all that when what you really need is a few more HP's! And I love playing characters with decent social skills. Anybody who plays with my casters know's the story: High stat, low WIS. Always makes hilarious suggestions.
Sorcerers had their problems (snicker) in 3.5, and got some nice kudos in PFRPG. I played both a Sorcerer and a Wizard, and I never felt that one was just so much more uber than the other. I do tend to prefer the Wizards, but for the PrC's rather than for the base class (another issue entirely, which PFRPG had done a good job of covering!).
Dennis da Ogre |
I do find some of the arguments here strange...
1) Wizards have a huge number of spells at their disposal
Isn't this assuming things? From their class, they only have, past 1st, 4 spells per level. Really, about the same as the Sorcerer. They can get more, but from where? Will the DM really hand out scrolls for spells you want? Will you really kill an enemy wizard and collect his library? Will you find another wizard and pay him for the privilege to copy from his book? Certain campaigns are more amenable to this than others.
This is pretty much assumed in any discussion that involves the wizard. I completely agree with you but it ultimately depends on the GM. It's also pointless arguing about it because ultimately everyone is right.
Even in published material the number of spells available to wizards varies greatly. Council of Thieves takes place entirely in the city of Westcrown so you can assume a fairly significant amount of magic and spells are available most of the time (though some spells/ items are likely not available at all or are extremely rare). One of the other APs the players advance 6-7 levels starting around 8th level and don't have access to any purchasable items or spells.
Red Hand of Doom has a fairly limited set of purchasable magic and very few wizards who are willing to share spells. There are a few spellbooks you come across though.
But many GMs give their players carte blanche and there is really no limits and few guidelines in the rules on purchasing spells. So *shrug* it's something you can't really debate because everyone is right.
5) Wizards have magic items to fall back on
I find this argument funny. Perhpas the folks that make it neglect to notice that sorcerers are now the Use Magic Device kings and can reliable use UMD for out of class wands and scrolls at fairly low levels. My sorcerer character of carries druid and cleric items which he uses on a fairly regular basis. Sure the wizard can craft stuff that he can already do, but my 1st level sorcerer is using the wand of cure light wounds and a scroll of entangle.
Shadow13.com |
Lets look at spell performance tough using your "Wizard picks X spells per level" theory.
Evoker gets bonus damage of +4/ spell due to specialist power (8th level). Draconic sorceer gets a bonus of +1/ die. So the evoker's fireball does 8d6+4, sorcerer's does 8d6+8... hmm, I'm failing to see how this is a better strategy.
You sir, have bested me with your number crunching skills.
I am currently playing an elemental (air) sorcerer and I enjoy it very much. I can't wait to wreck shop with the elemental body spells.
Dennis da Ogre |
Dennis da Ogre wrote:Lets look at spell performance tough using your "Wizard picks X spells per level" theory.
Evoker gets bonus damage of +4/ spell due to specialist power (8th level). Draconic sorceer gets a bonus of +1/ die. So the evoker's fireball does 8d6+4, sorcerer's does 8d6+8... hmm, I'm failing to see how this is a better strategy.
You sir, have bested me with your number crunching skills.
I am currently playing an elemental (air) sorcerer and I enjoy it very much. I can't wait to wreck shop with the elemental body spells.
I love the elemental bloodline powers.
Mirror, Mirror |
Shadow13.com wrote:I love the elemental bloodline powers.Dennis da Ogre wrote:Lets look at spell performance tough using your "Wizard picks X spells per level" theory.
Evoker gets bonus damage of +4/ spell due to specialist power (8th level). Draconic sorceer gets a bonus of +1/ die. So the evoker's fireball does 8d6+4, sorcerer's does 8d6+8... hmm, I'm failing to see how this is a better strategy.
You sir, have bested me with your number crunching skills.
I am currently playing an elemental (air) sorcerer and I enjoy it very much. I can't wait to wreck shop with the elemental body spells.
Yes, the Sorcer Bloodlines are all pretty neat, with the draconic, Arcane, and Elemental ones standing tall.
What buggs me about the Wizard specialist powers is how weak they are compared to the powers in the Beta. Was the 8HD per level necromancer power so tremendous that they had to hit it with the nerf stick until it became a turning/controling ability?
meatrace |
Okay for all you people crunching numbers to show that OMG sorcerers can blast better than a wizard. I say this: so freaking what?
If you're playing a wizard and all you're doing is casting fireball you should crumple up your character sheet right now.
A wizard should be doing things that the other classes can't. Rogues, fighters, rangers, barbarians, paladins all do damage. Don't do that. In the end, unless you have a perfectly clumped group of mooks to AoE and they all have bad saves you will underperform. Buff your friends, debuff your opponents, and control the battlefield. All while flying and invisible if at all possible. In combat that is.
Out of combat you're relied upon to dispel magical wards, help the party get across that chasm, sneak into the enemy camp, scry on the evil wizard, teleport to his lair, polymorph him into a toad, open the chest the rogue just can't get, help everyone breathe underwater, reshape the stone wall to get to the next room, etc etc.
IMO every class should concentrate on what it can do that other classes cannot. Fortunately for the wizard he can do SO MUCH that no one else can he should never be bored.
If you want to compare a BLASTER sorcerer to a BLASTER wizard I will concede that the sorcerer will likely win. However, it is my contention that that role is not in fact what the wizard is best suited for, so that comparison is sort of silly.
Dennis da Ogre |
However, it is my contention that that role is not in fact what the wizard is best suited for, so that comparison is sort of silly.
The comparison was made in reference to a specific post, not meant as a general concept. I quoted to original post in my post, maybe you have some specific issue with what I said? I didn't contrive the example I was just demonstrating that it was flawed.
Edit: This post shortened because I kind of missed the point.
And hey FWIW a lot of folks like playing blasters because it's FUN. And now thanks to Pathfinder sorcerers are actually better at something than wizards. I like that. There are also other concepts that match up well with the sorcerer's class abilities. And as you say, use the classes for what they are best suited for. If you want batman/ utility/ does anything guy then wizard is your man, if you want someone who does one thing all day long but well then sorcerer is it.
Dennis da Ogre |
Mirror Mirror sums it up pretty well.
I think the Wizard needs a buff. A minor one, but it could probably use it to compete with Bloodline powers.
Okay for all you people crunching numbers to show that OMG sorcerers can blast better than a wizard. I say this: so freaking what?
I find the dichotomy of replies amusing.
concerro |
Shadow13.com wrote:Here's how a wizard can equal a Sorcerer:
1) Choose a small number of spells.
2) Prepare these exact same spells every single day.Done
As a matter of fact, this method would probably make a wizard much more powerful than a sorcerer.
A wizard focuses on his magic rather than on gimmicky bloodline abilities.
Wizards receive boosts and abilities that make their magic more potent than a Sorcerer's magic.So if a Wizard chose the same exact spells that a Sorcerer chose, I'd bet that the Wizard would have the advantage.
Instead of loading a wizard up with wide variety of spells and watering him down, specialize in a certain type of magic and become very effective in your niche.
You don't need to have the right spell for EVERY possible situation.
You need to have the right spell for MOST situations.For example: if you focused on evocation spells only, you could be a damage dealing monster. You might not have any invisibility or bull's strength spells, but that's why they make magic items and potions.
There is one flaw in your logic. While a wizard can prepare 2 fireball spells, 2 fly spells and 2 dispel magic spells, the sorcerer has 6 (or 7) lvl 3 spells (which are Fireball, Fly and Dispel Magic) that he can portion at his leisure.
While he wizard will have same 3 spells as the sorcerer he can only ever cast 2 fireball until the next rest while the sorcerer can cast up to 6.
The wizard can try to find out about his enemy to make sure he has the right spells. If the sorcerer does not already know the correct spells, to bad for him. A wizard can also leave spell slots open and fill them later in the day. It is hard for a properly played wizard to have the wrong spells or at least have useful spells, even if they are not the best for that situation.
dulsin |
And now thanks to Pathfinder sorcerers are actually better at something than wizards. I like that.
The problem is that Sorcerers can cast spells better than a wizard and they get cool powers on the side.
Ok I like the sorcerers I realy do. My problem is that wizards are completely outclassed by sorcerers in almost every way. Until wizards are given a some thing more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.
dulsin |
The wizard can try to find out about his enemy to make sure he has the right spells. If the sorcerer does not already know the correct spells, to bad for him. A wizard can also leave spell slots open and fill them later in the day. It is hard for a properly played wizard to have the wrong spells or at least have useful spells, even if they are not the best for that situation.
Go buy some scrolls. Now your sorcerer has every spell he needs in his pocket.
TriOmegaZero |
Can't see Archangels post, some kind of forum glitch.
But the problem I see is that by the time the Sorcerer has those three 3rd level spells, both he and the wizard have moved on to 4th level spells. Oh and the wizard already has some 5th level spells. The sorcerer is seriously three levels behind right there.
Specialist in Conjuration; Neromancy and Evocation banned
5th: Teleport, Wall of Stone, Dominate Person, Shadow Evocation
4th: Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Charm Monster, Polymorph, Hallucinatory Terrain
The wizard can also use their pearl of power to repeat a 5th and 4th level spell or reuse a 4th level spell.
So what does our sorcerer look like?
5th: Wall of Stone
4th Level: Hallucinatory Terrain, Polymorph
I picked spells that are generically useful as possible for the sorcerer. Polymorph is a swiss-army buff, Hallucinatory Terrain gives massive amounts of battlefield control, and Wall of Stone is a very reliable save or suck/die (targetting reflex and even getting multiple creatures). But they can CAST these spells a lot of times! But we already know ahead of time that if the sorcerer comes across any incorporeal critters or teleporty ones then they're screwed. Hopefully they have some 2nd or 3rd level spells prepared.
(The only change to this argument for Pathfinder is that the Sorcerer gets one more 4th level spell known. Woo.)
Keoki |
At a minimum, I plan to house rule in the ability to "forget" spells from slots as a minor action to allow the use of those slots to prepare a new spell or to utilize an MM feat on an already prepared spell. I might go further an use a "spell slot" system similar to that used by Magisters in Arcana Evolved, but that will require further thought.
How ironic - the house-ruled 3.5 is itself getting house-ruled. I love it!
Kirth Gersen |
the Wizard really needs some kind of buff...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (stabs self repeatedly in the brain)
concerro |
concerro wrote:The wizard can try to find out about his enemy to make sure he has the right spells. If the sorcerer does not already know the correct spells, to bad for him. A wizard can also leave spell slots open and fill them later in the day. It is hard for a properly played wizard to have the wrong spells or at least have useful spells, even if they are not the best for that situation.Go buy some scrolls. Now your sorcerer has every spell he needs in his pocket.
If the sorcerer has to keep buying scrolls and a wizard only has to buy the scroll once, if at all.........
Dragonborn3 |
KaptainKrunch wrote:the Wizard really needs some kind of buff...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (stabs self repeatedly in the brain)
*casts regeneration*
concerro |
Dennis da Ogre wrote:And now thanks to Pathfinder sorcerers are actually better at something than wizards. I like that.
The problem is that Sorcerers can cast spells better than a wizard and they get cool powers on the side.
Ok I like the sorcerers I realy do. My problem is that wizards are completely outclassed by sorcerers in almost every way. Until wizards are given a some thing more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.
Define casting spells better.
Kirth Gersen |
Until wizards are given something more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.
Why not just make all full casters start play as deities? Then you could give the warriors all d4 HD and poor BAB, and housreule that all monks and bards must take "hamster" as their race.
Dragonborn3 |
concerro wrote:Until wizards are given something more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.Why not just make all full casters start play as deities? Then you could give the warriors all d4 HD and poor BAB, and housreule that all monks and bards must take "hamster" as their race.
What to play? The hamster that sings and has the possibility to turn into a dragon, or the butt-kicking hamster that moves faster than humans and can kick a half-orc barbarian six ways to next week? You tease KG.
Dragonborn3 |
Totally unrelated, but I once baleful polymorphed my brother's epic monk into a rabbit, and he still killed the opponent. Quite amusing.
Always fear the bunny. There are several motivational that say the same thing in different ways.
Also off topic, I took the Leadership feat last weekend in my Oriental Adventures game, and ended up with a Arcane Bloodline Battle Sorcerer mouse that rides a giant fire beetle into battle.
"Surrender or be killed by a mouse..."
Kirth Gersen |
What to play? The hamster that sings and has the possibility to turn into a dragon, or the b%&&-kicking hamster that moves faster than humans and can kick a half-orc barbarian six ways to next week? You tease KG.
Not at all. Anything the bard or monk can do, a full caster can still do sooner, and better. Monks can run fast? Try keeping up with a teleport. They can jump high? Casters can make a carpet of flying. They can punch? Caster can summon demons to fight for him. Bards can buff their friends? Not as well as clerics can.
concerro |
concerro wrote:Until wizards are given something more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.Why not just make all full casters start play as deities? Then you could give the warriors all d4 HD and poor BAB, and housreule that all monks and bards must take "hamster" as their race.
You quoted the wrong person. I do it to sometimes. :)
PS: That quote was made by Dolsin
Dennis da Ogre |
szaijan wrote:At a minimum, I plan to house rule in the ability to "forget" spells from slots as a minor action to allow the use of those slots to prepare a new spell or to utilize an MM feat on an already prepared spell. I might go further an use a "spell slot" system similar to that used by Magisters in Arcana Evolved, but that will require further thought.How ironic - the house-ruled 3.5 is itself getting house-ruled. I love it!
It's not ironic at all, perhaps that word doesn't mean what you think it means? And every single version of every RPG that's played has house rules.
Dennis da Ogre |
Dennis da Ogre wrote:And now thanks to Pathfinder sorcerers are actually better at something than wizards. I like that.
The problem is that Sorcerers can cast spells better than a wizard and they get cool powers on the side.
Ok I like the sorcerers I realy do. My problem is that wizards are completely outclassed by sorcerers in almost every way. Until wizards are given a some thing more I will never play one and I will advise everyone I meet not to bother either.
We've covered this ground... maybe you should read the whole thread. Wizards do just fine, if you have trouble making the class work then sticking with a class you enjoy and can be effective playing. They certainly don't need a buff.
dulsin |
If the sorcerer has to keep buying scrolls and a wizard only has to buy the scroll once, if at all.........
Actually the sorcerer shouldn't limit himself to Arcane scrolls. As the master of UMD you may as well pick out some cleric and Paladin scrolls while you are shopping. Pretty nice being a spell cannon with a pocket full of healing spells.
I like Sorcerers they can be a nice canon with nearly inexhaustible spells special abilities and any limitations they have can be made up with a few scrolls and wands.
It has already been shown that a Dragon Bloodline can cast much more devistating spells than an Evocer. The blood line power gives an extra point per die and the specialist power gives 1/2 levels.
Level 10 Fireball by an evocer hits for 10d6+5 and the red dragon wanabe flying over there hits for 10d6+10.
Now look at Scorching ray the evocer can hit for 8d6 +5 and the Sorcerer has been hitting for 8d6+8 since level 7 and once we go to level 11 it gets worse. 12d6+5 vs. 12d6+12
concerro |
concerro wrote:If the sorcerer has to keep buying scrolls and a wizard only has to buy the scroll once, if at all.........Actually the sorcerer shouldn't limit himself to Arcane scrolls. As the master of UMD you may as well pick out some cleric and Paladin scrolls while you are shopping. Pretty nice being a spell cannon with a pocket full of healing spells.
I like Sorcerers they can be a nice canon with nearly inexhaustible spells special abilities and any limitations they have can be made up with a few scrolls and wands.
It has already been shown that a Dragon Bloodline can cast much more devistating spells than an Evocer. The blood line power gives an extra point per die and the specialist power gives 1/2 levels.
Level 10 Fireball by an evocer hits for 10d6+5 and the red dragon wanabe flying over there hits for 10d6+10.
Now look at Scorching ray the evocer can hit for 8d6 +5 and the Sorcerer has been hitting for 8d6+8 since level 7 and once we go to level 11 it gets worse. 12d6+5 vs. 12d6+12
If you are going to use that fact that a sorcerer can outblast a wizard then you are fighting a losing battle. Sorcerers that nova could almost always out damage a wizard. Believe it or not, losing hit points is not the worst thing that can happen. Death spells and mind affecting spells are much more scary than damage spells. You can normally survive a damage spell, but when the tank takes off running down the hallway, because someone stole his courage or is forced to attack the party, not only has one group lost a member, but the other group has gained an ally. Now the original party could cast dispel magic to get him back, but that is an action that could be used for something else, and it is entirely possible to fail the dispel magic check. I know that sorcerers can do that also, but if the wizard can get an idea of what they are fighting the can have the correct spells ready. The sorcerer has to hope he knows the correct spells as I said before.
As far as UMD, success is not guaranteed. The only advantage the sorcerer really has is that he can cast more spells, which can be negated, with the same advice you gave for the sorcerer, buy scrolls.When one class has a limit of X number of spells, and another class has a limit, if you want to call it that, of an infinite number of spells you really can't compare the two.
The DM could go out of his way to limit the wizard's spells, but if he has to go out of his way to limit the wizard and not the sorcerer that just proves the wizard is still king of the hill.
A class's versatility also has to be considered. If you want to specialize in damage spells be a sorcerer. If you want to do everything be a wizard.
You also need to consider that nothing is stopping a wizard from taking UMD. Nonclass skills dont cost extra ranks anymore, and you are not limited to having less ranks anymore either if you decide to use a wizard. The wizard does not get the +3 bonus but since the classes get extra feats now, taking skill focus is not a bad idea, and if the party still allows for 3.5 feats, and most do, there are feats that give grant new skills as class skills.
Dennis da Ogre |
It has already been shown that a Dragon Bloodline can cast much more devistating spells than an Evocer. The blood line power gives an extra point per die and the specialist power gives 1/2 levels.
Level 10 Fireball by an evocer hits for 10d6+5 and the red dragon wanabe flying over there hits for 10d6+10.
Now look at Scorching ray the evocer can hit for 8d6 +5 and the Sorcerer has been hitting for 8d6+8 since level 7 and once we go to level 11 it gets worse. 12d6+5 vs. 12d6+12
If you are intent on making a character that does almost exclusively blasting spells you really are better off with the sorcerer. A wizard is better suited to other roles, battlefield control or any of a dozen other things.
Dragonborn3 |
Is it pbp time already?
One person make a wizard, and he/she chooses what bloodline the sorcerer gets.
The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school.
I think that is fair. You guys get to pick the amount of gold they can spend and the level they are(I suggest 20th level).
Kirth Gersen |
The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school. I think that is fair.
Not if the "boost the wizards!" guy picks evocation as the school -- given that it's arguably hands-down the lamest school of magic in 3.X, by far. A 10d6+5 or 10d6+10 fireball is totally irrelevant when your enemies have 200 hp and can save for half -- but a stinking cloud still shuts them down cold. An equally good comparison could be made by picking the admittedly lame "destined" bloodline for the sorcerer, but requiring the wizard to use all his higher-level spell slots to prepare unseen servant.
Dennis da Ogre |
Dragonborn3 wrote:The other person plays the sorcerer and gets to pick the wzard's specialty school. I think that is fair.Not if the "boost the wizards!" guy picks evocation as the school -- given that it's arguably hands-down the lamest school of magic in 3.X, by far. A 10d6+5 or 10d6+10 fireball is totally irrelevant when your enemies have 200 hp and can save for half -- but a stinking cloud still shuts them down cold. An equally good comparison could be made by picking the admittedly lame "destined" bloodline for the sorcerer, but requiring the wizard to use all his higher-level spell slots to prepare unseen servant.
Personally, I think any PvP comparison between the two is lame. As has been pointed out though they share a spelllist they do not really share the same party role. Might as well do a PvP with Wizard and Barbarian.