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I just purchased the new Pathfinder Core Rulebook from my local game store, and I have to point out a glaring omission:
In the equipment section of the book, specifically the adventuring gear, the descriptions of the equipment starting with the letter 'B' is missing. No bedrolls, no backpacks, no barrels; it's just not there!
Considering that I paid $50 American for this book, I would expect that such an obvious error wouldn't be overlooked. That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. How do you plan to correct this mistake? The answer had better not be "nothing".
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What an odd error. I'm sure it will show up in the errata document. There's already a small one available for download and the pdf is/will continue to be fixed. Until then, there's always d20srd.org.
EDIT- On closer inspection, there is no B section to the SRD either, but they are in the old 3.5 Player's Handbook. Totally weird.
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The book clearly states that:
"Some of the pieces of adventuring gear found on Table 6–9 are described below, along with any special benefits they confer on the user (“you”)."
I took that to mean. "We didn't provide descriptions for self-explanatory items with no special rules/benefit to save space in this massive book."
To be fair though, the containers (e.g. backpack, belt pouch) should probably have their capacities listed somewhere (I haven't read the whole thing, so it could be in there somewhere)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Oh no! However will people figure out what a backpack is?
Oh, wait...
Some of the pieces of adventuring gear found on Table 6–9 are described below, along with any special benefits they confer on the user (“you”).[Emphasis Mine]
It's not a matter of people never learning what a backpack is, it's a matter of people never learning what 'Some' means.
Oh, and smurf.
I just purchased the new Pathfinder Core Rulebook from my local game store, and I have to point out a glaring omission:
In the equipment section of the book, specifically the adventuring gear, the descriptions of the equipment starting with the letter 'B' is missing. No bedrolls, no backpacks, no barrels; it's just not there!
Considering that I paid $50 American for this book, I would expect that such an obvious error wouldn't be overlooked. That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. How do you plan to correct this mistake? The answer had better not be "nothing".
I thought that was odd so, I pulled out my copy. The beginning of the descriptions does state that "Some" of the gear is described.
I'm guessing that they were omitted because not everything there warranted a written explanation. For example, you will see firewood listed on table 6-9, but there is not a description of it. Frankly, I don't really need a description of what firewood is.
I have to say, I'd be annoyed if they wasted my American dollars on the word count to explain to me what a bucket was.
Or a bell.
Or a basket.
All joking aside, are you looking for some game mechanics to explain the carrying capacity? They seem otherwise pretty self-explanatory.
Dang, I must type too slow.
Damn, how can we even try to play if we don't know the rules for barrels?
I have to say, I'd be annoyed if they wasted my American dollars on the word count to explain to me what a bucket was.
Or a bell.
Or a basket.
All joking aside, are you looking for some game mechanics to explain the carrying capacity? They seem otherwise pretty self-explanatory.
You make a great point. A basic level of reader intelligence must be assumed. For example, there is not a table explaining what the letter "B" means, let alone equipment beginning with it..
I was just saying: " ‹tensor› I view it as a general failure of the american education system. Kids today just can't do the 'brain work' themselves. But, they make fine assembly line workers. "
Oh,
I thought they had to take it out so they could make room for the rules on stairs that everyone thought was so crucial.
I feel ya, original poster, and I'm ticked off, too. I notice Chapter 13: Environment fails to mention that the sky is blue or rain is wet. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to run a game? Do they really expect me to figure out how to handle that on my own?
In all seriousness, besides the obvious fact that you shouldn't really need a description for such mundane items, your statement
That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. The answer had better not be "nothing".
just begs for snarky replies.
I feel ya, original poster, and I'm ticked off, too. I notice Chapter 13: Environment fails to mention that the sky is blue or rain is wet. I mean, how the hell am I supposed to run a game? Do they really expect me to figure out how to handle that on my own?
In all seriousness, besides the obvious fact that you shouldn't really need a description for such mundane items, your comment
That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. The answer had better not be "nothing".just begs for snarky replies.
I would like to thank the other posters who replied to the op for saving me from a sarcastic reply. I'm getting ready to start another year of teaching and I may need all the sarcasm I can muster just to deal with the district administration.
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I just purchased the new Pathfinder Core Rulebook from my local game store, and I have to point out a glaring omission:
I don't think barrel appears in 4e either in the descriptions. What exactly do the game publishers have against barrels that they would embargo their discription? But I have found that wikipedia has a rather large section on barrels (sorry haven't checked the rest of the items). Perhaps print this out from wikipedia and paste into your copy of the book? I'm picking we will have to do the same for racoons when the bestiary comes out - fingers crossed we don't...
S.
PS: I'm assuming your original post was a joke btw - if not sorry to offend.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I am currently working on publishing "The Penultimate Backpack," a pdf supplement compatible with PFRPG which will deal with this problem. It will also contain rules for making soon-to-be classic threads expressing outrage over minutia. How much will you have to pay for this wonderful product? The answer better not be "nothing".
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I am currently working on publishing "The Penultimate Backpack," a pdf supplement compatible with PFRPG which will deal with this problem. It will also contain rules for making soon-to-be classic threads expressing outrage over minutia. How much will you have to pay for this wonderful product? The answer better not be "nothing".
Excellent. I will have to take a look at this and see if it will supplement my upcoming adventure trilogy:
The Sinister Conspiracy of the Backpack
The Barrel Slave Pits of the Paizonian Overlords
The Temple of the Fuzzy Blanket
It is my intention to actually leave out any reference to actual barrels, backpacks, and bedrolls in these modules. I am also going to exclude the letter B from appearing in the text. This will, of course, render them unplayable. I am thinking about charging roughly $50 American dollars per adventure, though a higher price may not be out of the question.
Will your rules about threads be open content? I plan on including a terribly dangerous trap that magically drains Wisdom after reading a list of unending complaints about the minutia you reference. If the reader fails their Will save they also suffer the condition "stunned disbelief" as they try to comprehend such unwarranted outrage. Only a wish, remove curse, or a fulfilling game of the Pathfinder RPG will restore the Wisdom damage and remove the condition.
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I don't think barrel appears in 4e either in the descriptions.
Did they even have barrel in the price list? I can't remember right off hand. I know they left off pints of oil. While minor, it was mildly amusing to know my character could buy a lantern but could not fuel it. Though, such an omission was hardly the end of the world.
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This is a serious problem. There are already at least 5,000 commoners with the craft (barrelmaking) skill. I can see it now.
Merchant: "Buy your barrels here! Perfect, round, oak or cherry!"
PC: "Let me see your barrels! What do they do?"
Merchant: "Well... it depends on the type you get! This one here's a masterwork barrel (+300gp cost), and it's a beaut! It'll look great on your coffee table as an obscure art item. Or you could get this barrel over here. You can break in the lid and use it as a trash bin. Great for keeping your house tidy! I can make one special for ya, if you like that! Or.... turn it over and its a great bedside table! (knocks on wood) Sturdy! You don't see them like this anymore!"
PC: "Hmmm. I think I'll get a backpack instead."
Merchant: "Backpack? What's that?"
PC: "Not really sure. But all the PCs have one, so it must be trendy."
Other Merchant: "Backpacks! Get your backpacks! Sale! Buy a backpack, get a bedroll free!"
Merchant: "Ooooh. Bedroll. Sounds yummy."
PC: "I don't think you can eat it."
Other Merchant: "It depends. You could have baked it in a masterwork bedpan."
but what happens if i want to make a pc that throws nothing but barrels at people?
but what happens if i want to make a pc that throws nothing but barrels at people?
Watch out for plumbers.
Just as an aside, to make a masterwork item other than armor or weapon the cost is 1/3 of the base price. That is found in the Craft skill description. The normal creation cost is 1/3 of the base price so in order to create a masterwork barrel would be 2/3 of the base price expressed in silver pieces.
Just my 2 cp. Sorry if I am off topic.
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I understand that not every single thing needs to be described, especially some items such as the bell. However, every single container has a little "1" footnote in the listing. Here's what the footnote says:
1 These items weigh one-quarter this amount when made for Small characters. Containers for Small characters also carry one-quarter of the normal amount.
I don't know what the normal amount is, because it's not mentioned in the book. I'm not asking for full descriptions for everything, but it would have been useful to have a listing of the containers' carrying capacities. After all, if you're going into the desert, it's extremely useful to know how much water a waterskin can hold, given that a human being needs at least a gallon of water a day, and more than that when in the desert.
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OK, so here's what the 3.5 Player's Handbook has to say on the subject of backpacks, blankets, bedrolls, and waterskins.
Backpack: A backpack is a leather pack carried on the back,
typically with straps to secure it.
Bedroll: You never know where you’re going to sleep, and a
bedroll helps you get better sleep in a hayloft or on the cold ground.
A bedroll consists of bedding and a blanket thin enough to be rolled
up and tied. In an emergency, it can double as a stretcher.
Blanket, Winter: A thick, quilted, wool blanket made to keep
you warm in cold weather.
Waterskin: A waterskin is a leather pouch with a narrow neck
that is used for holding water.
...My word! How will we survive without such scintillating insights in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game? Surely this project is doomed from its inception!
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You know, I have to say that I'm disappointed in some of you. Yes, I didn't pay attention to the one sentence which implied that not every item listed would be described. However, I still think I have a point about needing to know (approximately) how much a backpack or a waterskin can hold. Even if I'm completely wrong...the way some of you have treated me genuinely sucks.
Pathfinder isn't perfect, nor is Paizo, because nothing can be perfect. However, what makes them both great is how Paizo actually listened, improved the game, continues to improve the game, and continues to improve itself.
Do you think that sarcasm and derision makes you intelligent? Superior to me? Do you think that heckling another player instead of listening to them is the attitude that will help Pathfinder continue to evolve? I think not. If you honestly want Pathfinder to improve, then drop the bad attitude and actually listen to what I'm saying. If you're more interested in being snarky, or just in protecting your brand new sacred cow, then here's your Kool Aid, now go away.
Do you think that sarcasm and derision makes you intelligent? Superior to me? Do you think that heckling another player instead of listening to them is the attitude that will help Pathfinder continue to evolve? I think not. If you honestly want Pathfinder to improve, then drop the bad attitude and actually listen to what I'm saying. If you're more interested in being snarky, or just in protecting your brand new sacred cow, then here's your Kool Aid, now go away.
Did you think that this would help?
Considering that I paid $50 American for this book, I would expect that such an obvious error wouldn't be overlooked. That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. How do you plan to correct this mistake? The answer had better not be "nothing".
It is good how Paizo listens. And what I see here you immediately taking advantage of that fact with a bad attitude, blowing this issue way out of proportion.
I certainly would have been happier if some sort of volume had been given to the storage items if there is space. However, that isn't what I see in the original post. It includes the lack of bedrolls as a problem, and while they consume space, I don't think it is worth the space needed to describe how much a bedroll can store.
actually.. I see what he means.
How much can a backpack hold? We know how to find out how much a person can hold, but what about containers.
I ran across this in the beta when my girlfriend and I were going to run CotCT together, she started work on figuring out what was in each bag and such (caltrops in a belt pouch,etc).
Now, no one is dieing by the lack of rules, but it is still missing.
so.... how much can you put in your barrels?
While i agree the information would be nice to have as far as weight and volume statistics, for now you may be better off grabbing them from previous game versions. It has come up previously that Paizo will be doing a comprehensive equipment book. Similar to the old Aurora's Realms Catalog for those who remember it.
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The actual volume capacity of containers has never really been spelled out specifically in 3e, or Pathfinder, or 4e. It holds... however much, but you carry the full weight of it. The only time volume comes into play is extradimensional spaces like a portable hole or a handy haversack, and even then it's mostly just to stop PCs from prying every statue off the walls, lugging it back into town, and selling it, or else the portable hole full of Green Slime that I've seen used a time or two.
Edit: Even Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog doesn't list a "volume" for a backpack.
Edit 2:OK, finally found something. If you go all the way back to the 2e PHB, it lists a volume for a backpack of 3' x 2'x 1', with a 50 lb. weight capacity, and a surprisingly consistent price of 2 gp and empty weight of 2 lb, the same as 3e, Pathfinder, and even 4e. Nothing for a barrel, though.
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Do you think that sarcasm and derision makes you intelligent? Superior to me? Do you think that heckling another player instead of listening to them is the attitude that will help Pathfinder continue to evolve? I think not. If you honestly want Pathfinder to improve, then drop the bad attitude and actually listen to what I'm saying. If you're more interested in being snarky, or just in protecting your brand new sacred cow, then here's your Kool Aid, now go away.Did you think that this would help?
Considering that I paid $50 American for this book, I would expect that such an obvious error wouldn't be overlooked. That's what the alpha and beta editions were there to catch. How do you plan to correct this mistake? The answer had better not be "nothing".It is good how Paizo listens. And what I see here you immediately taking advantage of that fact with a bad attitude, blowing this issue way out of proportion.
I certainly would have been happier if some sort of volume had been given to the storage items if there is space. However, that isn't what I see in the original post. It includes the lack of bedrolls as a problem, and while they consume space, I don't think it is worth the space needed to describe how much a bedroll can store.
Yes, you do have a point. It was an unfortunate coincidence that the items which Paizo chose to omit descriptions for were clustered together at the beginning of the section. That made it look exactly like a rookie editing error to me. I reacted in anger to that because of how much money I had to spend on what appeared to be a poorly-edited book. The first half dozen replies cleared up that misconception for me.
I apologize to Paizo's team for the initial hostility.
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Jeffrey, if you want to complain about the lack of equipment descriptions, check the 4E PHB first...I assume that the 4E equipment descriptions are nonexistent? I made a point of not purchasing any 4E material.
Well, if I remember correctly, they cut most of the miscellanous gear and there are very few items besides weapons and armor mentioned in the book. My point being, in relation to that, Jason has included quite a lot of item descriptions in PF RPG. And, anyone can probably estimate more or less correctly how much gear a backpack or a sack can hold -- even if someone can't, the numbers can be found in 3.5 SRD, right?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Jeffrey,
*Yawn*
your first post dripped with contempt and hostility. You concluded that a section of the book was missing.
It was pointed out by several people that the only thing missing was your comprehension of the word 'some'
Then you complained that the weight and volume were missing. At that point your reading comprehension was questioned, since there is a nice column marked 'weight'
Now, despite the hostility in the first post, you wish to play the martyr. Since, as has been pointed out, the exact dimensions of a container have not been in previous iterations (I think it may have been in the 2e PHB) you are addressing something that has never existed. You may as well ask why there are not rules for the exact amount of oxygen in a halfling's lung.
As to the volume of the backpack... it's roughly the same measurement as the speed of a Mimbari crusier. Whatever the plot requires.
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The entirety of non-weapon or armor equipment in the 4e PHB is on just barely more than 1 full page, excepting art and including tables. Pathfinder has 7 pages, without art and with tables. (3.5 has 5 1/4, roughly, and 2e was only 2 1/2, maybe 3 if you include the table with sizes and capacities of containers.)
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Heck, you had to buy the 1e AD&D character sheets or the Permanent character folder (can't remember which) to get the volumes and carrying capacities of backpacks, sacks and pouches.
D&D has a long history (other than 2e apparently) of ignoring that info in core material.
So, really, Jason was just being "backwards compatible" when he left that info out!
;)
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Well, if I remember correctly, they cut most of the miscellanous gear and there are very few items besides weapons and armor mentioned in the book. My point being, in relation to that, Jason has included quite a lot of item descriptions in PF RPG. And, anyone can probably estimate more or less correctly how much gear a backpack or a sack can hold -- even if someone can't, the numbers can be found in 3.5 SRD, right?Jeffrey, if you want to complain about the lack of equipment descriptions, check the 4E PHB first...I assume that the 4E equipment descriptions are nonexistent? I made a point of not purchasing any 4E material.
Well, there's two things. First, I thought the idea of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was to avoid having to refer to other documents in order to play the basic game. And second, I find it oddly out of place for a system which has traditionally explicitly detailed everything, including character carrying capacity, to handwave the capacity of a backpack (or other container).
but what happens if i want to make a pc that throws nothing but barrels at people?Watch out for plumbers.
Its carpenters but was latter changed to plumbers so should i watch out for both?
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And second, I find it oddly out of place for a system which has traditionally explicitly detailed everything, including character carrying capacity, to handwave the capacity of a backpack (or other container).
I can certainly see your point on this one, but the capacities have been left undefined since the start of 3e.
Wait, I take that back. The 3.0 PHB had cubic foot volumes.
Item Cost Weight Holds or Carries
DRY GOODS
Backpack 2 gp 2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Barrel 2 gp 30 lb. 10 cu. ft.
Basket 4 sp 1 lb. 2 cu ft.
Bucket 5 sp 2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Chest 2 gp 25 lb. 2 cu. ft.
Pouch, belt 1 gp 1/2 lb. 1/5 cu. ft.
Sack 1 sp 1/2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Saddlebags 4 gp 8 lb. 5 cu. ft.
Spell component pouch 5 gp 1/4 lb. 1/8 cu. ft.LIQUIDS
Bottle, wine, glass 2 gp * 1 1/2 pint
Flask 3 cp * 1 pint
Jug, clay 3 cp 1 lb. 1 gallon
Mug/tankard, clay 2 cp * 1 pint
Pitcher, clay 2 cp 1 lb. 1/2 gallon
Pot, iron 5 sp 2 lb. 1 gallon
Vial, ink or potion 1 gp * 1 ounce
Waterskin 1 gp * 1/2 gallon
(the weights are for the container itself)
They did get dropped when the change to 3.5 happened, though.
And second, I find it oddly out of place for a system which has traditionally explicitly detailed everything, including character carrying capacity, to handwave the capacity of a backpack (or other container).I can certainly see your point on this one, but the capacities have been left undefined since the start of 3e.
Wait, I take that back. The 3.0 PHB had cubic foot volumes.
Item Cost Weight Holds or Carries
DRY GOODS
Backpack 2 gp 2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Barrel 2 gp 30 lb. 10 cu. ft.
Basket 4 sp 1 lb. 2 cu ft.
Bucket 5 sp 2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Chest 2 gp 25 lb. 2 cu. ft.
Pouch, belt 1 gp 1/2 lb. 1/5 cu. ft.
Sack 1 sp 1/2 lb. 1 cu. ft.
Saddlebags 4 gp 8 lb. 5 cu. ft.
Spell component pouch 5 gp 1/4 lb. 1/8 cu. ft.LIQUIDS
Bottle, wine, glass 2 gp * 1 1/2 pint
Flask 3 cp * 1 pint
Jug, clay 3 cp 1 lb. 1 gallon
Mug/tankard, clay 2 cp * 1 pint
Pitcher, clay 2 cp 1 lb. 1/2 gallon
Pot, iron 5 sp 2 lb. 1 gallon
Vial, ink or potion 1 gp * 1 ounce
Waterskin 1 gp * 1/2 gallon(the weights are for the container itself)
They did get dropped when the change to 3.5 happened, though.
Now thats a valuable post...thnx for helping me avoid a trip to the basement!
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And second, I find it oddly out of place for a system which has traditionally explicitly detailed everything, including character carrying capacity, to handwave the capacity of a backpack (or other container).I can certainly see your point on this one, but the capacities have been left undefined since the start of 3e.
Wait, I take that back. The 3.0 PHB had cubic foot volumes.
Item Cost Weight Holds or Carries
(omitted for brevity)
(the weights are for the container itself)
They did get dropped when the change to 3.5 happened, though.
Thanks for finding this!
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Jeffrey,
*Yawn*
your first post dripped with contempt and hostility. You concluded that a section of the book was missing.
It was pointed out by several people that the only thing missing was your comprehension of the word 'some'
Yes, and I apologized for my initial hostility once I realized that mistake.
Then you complained that the weight and volume were missing. At that point your reading comprehension was questioned, since there is a nice column marked 'weight'
As I already said earlier, the weight given for the various containers is only for the weight of the empty containers themselves, and not for how much weight they can hold, nor for the full containers.
Now, despite the hostility in the first post, you wish to play the martyr. Since, as has been pointed out, the exact dimensions of a container have not been in previous iterations (I think it may have been in the 2e PHB) you are addressing something that has never existed. You may as well ask why there are not rules for the exact amount of oxygen in a halfling's lung.
However, I did not ask such for such an extreme thing as how much oxygen is in a halfling's lung. I believe that is a straw man argument.
As to the volume of the backpack... it's roughly the same measurement as the speed of a Mimbari crusier. Whatever the plot requires.
Now -there's- the issue at hand. I think how much a backpack can hold should probably be explicitly (if approximately) stated, since I consider the information to be useful and relevant.
