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As someone who's done a breakdown of all the weapons in the PHB (and many beyond it), I have to agree with Pres and the others that state that the Spiked Chain was not overpowered. In fact, it was exactly where all Exotic Weapons need to be in terms of balance (many of which should be Exotic at all... monk weapons I'm looking at you).
As the O.P., I think will point out that a good point was just made.
By nerfing "Improved Trip" you don't really need to also nerf the spiked chain. If keeping 'reach,' an Enlarged character could still threaten 20', but the bonuses in 3.5 that came from having a two handed weapon (+4) and being Large (+4) when disarming have been reduced or elminated to 0/+1 respectively. (There is no more +4 bonus to disarming with a two handed weapon, correct me if I'm wrong please, as I'm buying the book today.)
Therefore nerfing the spiked chain was a extra step that made a more 'difficult' choice (for those who want to focus on Combat Manuevers like Trip/Disarm) into a non-choice for the spiked chain.
From my POV one way to reduce the effect of the large reach thing is to say that the effect of reach weapons is to just ADD 5' to reach not double it, so a large spiked chain wielder has 15'reach, and with a normal reach weapon the wielder cant effect the 5' next to them.
BTW that video when the guy hits the water pots hanging from the ropes they look close enough for him to have whacked them with a long sword to me. I never thought spiked chains were particularly realistic weapons- to me they stretch the boundaries, but it is a fantasy game and I dont mind that.
you guys weren't listening to the commentary where u? what u where seeing was the red cloth, which btw was way more distant than a long sword, if you had listened to the commentary you would have heard where they mentioned that the cloth was used to confuse the enemy and was actually a few meters back from the striking dart. that weapon had crazy reach
I didn't have the commentary on but I did look at what happened when the water pots were struck. the wielder stepped forward (like say a fencer would) and struck the pots. He seemed about 2 floor tiles distant from the water pot--- but I will check again. (I think this is a bit off point but dont mind the discussion)
The dex based, spiked chain trip build that used combat reflex that everyone is so worried is overpowered (which doesnt really make sense to me since while it was awesome in some situations those situations only came around about a quarter of the time and then the rest of the time it was either useless or merely useful.) in 3.5 required combat exp, imp trip, combat reflex, weapon finesse, and EWP spiked chain. very feat intensive to build this character so what i dont understand is why everyone believes that a fighter with that many feats shouldnt be pretty powerful without being a str based damage build.
but since thats not the topic of this thread.
even if the build was overpowered (a highly debated opinion i dont share btw) that was 3.5 paizo changed the rules with combat maneuvers which make such a build so much harder and more feat intensive, changed the feats so they give less bonus, and now killed the weapon that made it worth it. what you guys are forgetting is how feat intesive it is to be a dex chain trip build
first you need Agile maneuver (just to use dex for manuevers), then combat expertise, improved trip (which has half the bonus of 3.5), weapon finesse, and Exotic weapon prof. spiked chain.
FIVE FEATS for a build that is even harder to pull off due to the change in how Combat maneuvers work meaning much less reliability.
When a strength build fighter can now do it better with a flail with just two feats (combat exp, imp trip)
So Im very curious why you would nerf a cool useful weapon (that was in no way overpowered considering feat cost to use and it limited effectiveness without a certain build) which would make such a build still have some usefulness?
dont get me wrong with my comments on the video I am on your side. I liked the old spiked chain.
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Looking at the Spiked Chains description (and picture) in the PFRPG compared to the 3.5 version leads me to believe that the weapon shouldn't have reach any more - PFPRG states it is a 4 ft length of chain that a wielder can apply his Dex to instead of his strength to hit. like many here its loss of reach does make it into a finesse flail which doesnt really support an exotic weapon category, however the visual design (and tricky use) still fits the exotic.
The bit that niggles me is that it no longer is a double weapon yet remains 2 handed. with the description having 1 ft of slack chain and 3 feet of whirling death to strike with I cant see how this couldn't be used in one hand.
Hence the reason for my post and a house rule I will be using...
A spiked chain is about 4 feet in length, covered in wicked barbs. It is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a spiked chain two-handed as a martial weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon.
effectively the spiked chain becomes the bastard sword of the flails - I believe this would give the weapon new life and make it fit better into the game.
*RANT*
Why oh Why oh Why didn't Paizo do something about the completely fictional and totally farcical dire flail :(
While I see a need for the stats I will again house rule the description to as follows...
A dire flail is a heavy flail with multiple, smaller weights on short lengths of rope or chain on one end instead of one large weight. The dire-flail can be used as a double weapon by a skilled user allowing him to strike with more than one head or even striking multiple targets with different heads. Many dire flails have 2 heads but some have 3 or 4 of varying lengths, more than 2 heads does not increase the amount of attacks a wield can make, however and the weapon is still enchanted as a normal double weapon regardless of how many heads it has.
... stuff ...
First off, and I am going to bold this so nobody misses it:
The Spiked Chain was Never a Double Weapon.There, hopefully enough people will notice it, that they won't keep saying it.
As for the dire flail, I describe it as a three-section staff.
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The dex based, spiked chain trip build that used combat reflex that everyone is so worried is overpowered in 3.5 required combat exp, imp trip, combat reflex, weapon finesse, and EWP spiked chain.
You're actually right, the Dex based version is very feat intensive. So what you do is remove the dex from the requirements. Go strength with an OK dex and ignore Weapon finesse. At first level you have Combat Exp., Imp. Trip, and Ex. Weapon Prof. Then at second you get combat reflexes. With a moderate dex you have at least 1-2 creatures locked down each combat. Then just get a belt to increase your dex and get enlarge cast on you. easily built and maintained from by a human fighter from level 2-20.
Granted I never was bothered by the mechanic per se, I was more bothered by the fact that the way the mechanic was set up, a 1st level fighter could lock down a 18th level fighter who doesn't have the imp. trip feat. I had players attack an 18th level NPC villain in a campaign and had that build litterally lock the guy down until I had the enemy provoke the AoO and attack from the ground. But it was rediculous to me that this much much much better fighter had no defense against the annoying rinse and repeat tactic that he wound up having to crawl, so much for establishing him as a bad ass villian instead he was comic releif. Although the changes to the CMB mechanics and improved feats solved this already. Which is why I agree that the nerf to the weapon went a little too far.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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First off, and I am going to bold this so nobody misses it:
The Spiked Chain was Never a Double Weapon.
Quoting so that people see it again.
Maybe that would have been a sufficient limitation, if such were needed: a spiked chain requires two hands, but does not allow 1.5 x Strength bonus.
I did...and I think you are overestimating the distance.The person using the weapon is about 5'8 maybe. Use him as a guide and for the distances.
anyway. Im done here.
You guys want to argue that the change to the spiked chain has destroyed the game..feel free.
To me its a little thing, and will stop folks from taking advantage of a game loophole that was unbalancing.
Im all for that.
I'm with you on this Dread.
By the way did anyone else notice in the videos that people were in their PJs and not 45 lbs of plate armor with a helmet like a bucket on their heads, in a well lit room with loads of space around them.
Just the opposite of most places you would want to use a spiked chain during a game...
Its a GAME where you have FUN. I'm gutted that the Bohemian Earspoon was dropped from 3e but I'm not complaining :@
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I don't see the point of the nerf; the Spiked Chain, to me, was annoying because it was the only weapon that let you do the sort of thing a fighter has to do. That's partly solved with Lunge (and ideally would have been with Stand Still, except that doesn't stack with Lunge) but Spiked Chain as is isn't worth a feat, so far as I can see. Too dangerous to not be able to use at 5' range, particularly given that the required 5' step backwards to use it may not even work with the new feat that lets your opponent follow you.
Not to mention that, as pointed out earlier, there's Pathfinder material we're supposed to use going forward that has similar behaviour.
AND....Taking S.C. away from player also took it away from DM's who could make a very trip happy villian a real pain in the arse.
Now that spiked chain has been nerfed into oblivion I suppose we should replace it in modules with bladed scarf (read: like spiked chain except better) and urumi (read: like spiked chain except one handed) to get the 10' reach back.
When I see Bruce Willis's character get shot a bunch of times and not die and in fact gets up a minute later and starts kicking some more ass. That is ok. It is not real. It is not meant to be real. Same thing with fantasy games. It is ok if the fighter can swing around 5 yards of chain, because it is fun and fantastical. When you watch Legolas stab a guy with an arrow or slide down on shield or the trunk of giant animal or shoot some orc hundreds of feet away through the eye. It is ok. We know, none of that is really possible, so what. It is fantasy. Let it be that.
I agree, Bruce Willis' characters don't even come close to being realistic.
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AND....Taking S.C. away from player also took it away from DM's who could make a very trip happy villian a real pain in the arse.
Especially since players can't throw multi-legged and flying creatures at the DM like the vice versa lol. Which was always the response when people complained about the build "oh just throw..."
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... stuff ...First off, and I am going to bold this so nobody misses it:
The Spiked Chain was Never a Double Weapon.There, hopefully enough people will notice it, that they won't keep saying it.
As for the dire flail, I describe it as a three-section staff.
Bah thats what i get for posting on two different subjects while overloaded on energy drinks :)
:blush:Change the word double to big in the “niggles me” sentence :)
The three section staff for me is a heavily oriental influenced weapon and one that would be used by a monk over the average fighter.
There’s a strong difference in weight too - A dire flail is 10 lbs which is a heavy weapon in general. (matching the polearms) while the three section staff would weight about as much as a quarterstaff (4lbs).
Finally The three section staff wouldn’t be as effective as tripping as a flail (but would still be effective at disarming like the nunchaku's) so classifying the dire flail as a three section staff just feels wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Now that spiked chain has been nerfed into oblivion I suppose we should replace it in modules with bladed scarf (read: like spiked chain except better) and urumi (read: like spiked chain except one handed) to get the 10' reach back.
** spoiler omitted **
Bladed scarf will be addressed in the upcoming equipment book, per Sean.
...so classifying the dire flail as a three section staff just feels wrong.
My thinking is this, looking at something like this picture of a farming flail. If you were to attach another flail head at the other end of the handle, you'd get a double flail (i.e. dire flail) and it would look remarkably like a three section staff.
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...so classifying the dire flail as a three section staff just feels wrong.My thinking is this, looking at something like this picture of a farming flail. If you were to attach another flail head at the other end of the handle, you'd get a double flail (i.e. dire flail) and it would look remarkably like a three section staff.
Thats definately possible, it would be kind of like a nunchaku with a ball and chain on one end. at least then you would have 2 sections you could grab safely unlike the clumbsy image of the dire flail where you just have images of fighters knocking themselves out as they swing to hit with one end while the other comes hurtling towards them from behind! I'd also consider if the spikes would allow the choice between B & P damage or just leave it as B like the other flails.
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By the way did anyone else notice in the videos that people were in their PJs and not 45 lbs of plate armor with a helmet like a bucket on their heads.
I agree with you on this, personally I think some weapons should be dex based not str based, eg rapier, whip, net and spiked chain. You shouldn't need to take weapon finesse, these weapons really use dex not str. You don't see a big brute bashing away with a rapier do you? Also you never see someone in full plate using a rapier they're always foppish types wearing little to no armour. Meaning that if a weapon is dex based it should use armour check penalties.
But that would be a whole different argument.
So any chance of hearing from Mr. Buhlman on the why's of this decision?He's probly busy atm. Getting ready for genconoz. woohoo
Here are his responses in another thread.
The biggest problem was that the spiked chain was the only weapon that granted reach, but also allowed you to attack adjacent. Add that on to all of the other benefits the weapon gave you and it was just too good. Exotic weapons tend to grant some cool abilities, but the spiked chain really went over the top.
Couple of quick points here.
1. Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make.
2. As for the other weapons, the past is just that, the past. When these weapons get updated, we will be looking at them quite a bit closer for balance.
I know this is not a popular change, but the weapon was just too good.
From what I can figure out from these is that he thought the spiked chain was good and wacky, which is actually bad since exotic weapons aren't suppose to be good but instead just wacky. Thus it was nerf to make it just wacky but not good.
Nerfing the spiked chain is just a part of "fixes" meant to deprive melee characters of any and all meaningful tactical options. Because melee characters obviously shouldn't do anything but auto-attacking, and they are totally not allowed to have good stuff anyway. Unless they are paladins, maybe. The spiked chain (however stupid it looked) was the best option-enabler weapon in 3.X, therefore it had to be nerfed so hard that it might have been as well banned.
Here are his responses in another thread.
Couple of quick points here.
1. Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make.
Major, major disagreement here. If I have to spend a feat on it, then yes, it should be better. Name one other feat that just adds "Wacky" to your character.
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Major, major disagreement here. If I have to spend a feat on it, then yes, it should be better. Name one other feat that just adds "Wacky" to your character.Here are his responses in another thread.
Couple of quick points here.
1. Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make.
Throw anything.
While it has practical applications (much like exotic weapon proficiencies.) it mainly comes down to, you're really good at flinging stuff in a bar room brawl.