No Crown Royal Endorsement

[Rezdave]

Just a head's up that you should probably remove the picture on Thursday, 09 July's blog entry that features a d20 sitting upon what is clearly a Crown Royal bag.

Although such bags are traditionally used as dice bags by gamers, use of their bag and clearly evident logo by Paizo in the blog implies endorsement by Crown Royal of Pathfinder and Paizo's products. It is possibly Trademark Infringement, and certainly use without consent, unless you know something I don't about a Crown Royal-Paizo relationship.

Not that they're really going to do anything about it, but it's technically wrong, and I thought someone should mention it.

BTW ... not a Lawyer, either of the Rules or Tort variety, but I deal with a lot of intellectual and trade property issues in my profession. Just trying to help CYA for a company I like.

FWIW,

Rez

[seekerofshadowlight]

But, But ...they are time honored dice bags! That or wine sleeves. I say leave it up, I don't see it as a big deal I think it was more of a gamer thing then anything else. Everyone I know uses the crown royal baggy until they get to many dice

I don't see how this is any worse then having a coke or mountain dew in the background of a pic, which has happened many times

[Xabulba]

Royal Crown needs to put out a set of "Royal Crown" gamming dice to go with their bags, it would more popular than an iPod.

[Sebastian]

Maybe Paizo should start selling Crown Royal...

I'm just sayin'...

[KnightErrantJR]

Sebastian wrote:

Maybe Paizo should start selling Crown Royal...

I'm just sayin'...

That's just phase one in your evil plan to order hookers and blow on the internet, isn't it? And with a Pathfinder advantage discount to book . . . for shame Sebastian . . . for shame.

[Cralius the Dark]

Think of the commercials:

"Hi, my name is Cayden Cailean. Thanks to Crown Royal, I became a god. And you can too."

[Haldir]

Yup

best damn dice bag I've ever had!!!

[Sebastian]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Maybe Paizo should start selling Crown Royal...

I'm just sayin'...

That's just phase one in your evil plan to order hookers and blow on the internet, isn't it? And with a Pathfinder advantage discount to book . . . for shame Sebastian . . . for shame.

That is genius!

I mean...uh...yeah...that was my plan...

Hmmm...hookers and blow with my Paizo discount...

[varianor]

Cralius the Dark wrote:

Think of the commercials:

"Hi, my name is Cayden Cailean. Thanks to Crown Royal, I became a god. And you can too."

Awesome!

Too bad about the lawsuit from Starstone Industries that immediately followed that ad. ;)

[Secretlyreplacedwith]

KnightErrantJR wrote:

....plan to order hookers....

Mmmmm.....hookers.

[Tarren Dei]

So, what motto should Crown Royal use when they buy out all the advertising in the next Wayfinder?

[Xabulba]

Get your dice bagged with Crown Royal.

[I.Malachi]

Xabulba wrote:

Royal Crown needs to put out a set of "Royal Crown" gamming dice to go with their bags, it would more popular than an iPod.

You can make your own.

[Matthew Morris]

I.Malachi wrote:

Xabulba wrote:

Royal Crown needs to put out a set of "Royal Crown" gamming dice to go with their bags, it would more popular than an iPod.

You can make your own.

Oh that just rocks...

[Patrick Curtin]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I.Malachi wrote:

Xabulba wrote:

Royal Crown needs to put out a set of "Royal Crown" gamming dice to go with their bags, it would more popular than an iPod.

You can make your own.

Oh that just rocks...

+1

I just emailed my wife that link as a Christmas present suggestion .. :)

[Rezdave]

I.Malachi wrote:

You can make your own.

Actually, most of the major liquor brands are doing this now. Chivas Regal, Johnnie Walker, Kahlua ... you name it. You can get custom labels from all of them and more.

The bags are new to me, though.

R.

P.S. I have both a Chivas Regal iPod case and flask. They all give lots of swag.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Pathfinder should have the endorsement of some fine, single malt scotch.

But yeah, the purple bags always make me nostalgic.

[Xabulba]

Paizo brand blended whiskey, die bag included.

[Matthew Morris]

Ok, so what's a good Pathfinder saying to put on a CR bag?

I thought for the smaller one, I'll keep my d6s in and put "Hanse Davion is my shepherd, I shall not be in want" for my Battletech dice.

[Liquidsabre]

I'm sorely tempted to order a custom CR bag with the following two lines:

"Pathfinder RPG

Play Responsibly"

;P

[Sean K Reynolds]

Rez, you are mistaken.

That is CLOWN Royal bag.

[Stebehil]

And here I was thinking the Rez objected to the use of an alcohol brand in conjunction with gaming...
Could it really be a problem? I recall a pic of Erik holding a big heap of white castle food stuff - nothing directly to do with gaming either.

Stefan

[Rezdave]

Stebehil wrote:

Could it really be a problem? I recall a pic of Erik holding a big heap of white castle food stuff - nothing directly to do with gaming either.

Because it's a readily identifiable trademark of another company that is on a website promoting a different company, it implies endorsement.

If you make a movie, you can't simply have a character drink a Coca-cola unless you have permission from Coke. You can't put a D&D logo on your product and say "works with D&D" unless you have permission from WotC.

Simply put, you can't use someone else's logo, workmark, trademark, copyrighted material or other stuff without their permission.

This is why OGL, usage licenses and so forth are such a big deal. It's why Paizo put out a very specific Community Use license for their material.

Honestly, unless Erik came to a product-placement agreement with White Castle, they really shouldn't have used that picture either. I don't tend to pay much attention to the "people pics" and so didn't notice.

I really don't mean to blow this out of proportion, but unlike what I assume was a snapshot of a guy either holding incidental food items, the photo for this entry was a very specifically created "studio shot" that purposefully, intentionally and specifically used another company's trademark. The really should know better, and legally it's in a very different part of the "gray-zone" (i.e. one that is much less muddled) than the WC snapshot.

Rez

[Heathansson]

I got a wallet for Father's Day. Actually, it was a dice bag with a wallet in it for some reason.

[Adam Daigle]

Rezdave wrote:

If you make a movie, you can't simply have a character drink a Coca-cola unless you have permission from Coke.

I may have bad information, but don't companies pay for product placement? Product placement is so overt in entertainment these days that many blockbusters or television shows seem like Ford and Pepsi commercials with a few fights a a weak plot sewn throughout (I'm looking at you 24). I have however seen product names blurred out in videos, documentaries and reality tv shows, which totally speaks for your position. Where's the line in that? I'm pretty curious.

[KnightErrantJR]

Daigle wrote:

I may have bad information, but don't companies pay for product placement? Product placement is so overt in entertainment these days that many blockbusters or television shows seem like Ford and Pepsi commercials with a few fights a a weak plot sewn throughout (I'm looking at you 24). I have however seen product names blurred out in videos, documentaries and reality tv shows, which totally speaks for your position. Where's the line in that? I'm pretty curious.

That's just silly. That would be like all of the good guys from a movie franchise based on transforming robots just happening to change into vehicles from one car company . . .

[Mark Moreland]

Daigle wrote:

Where's the line in that? I'm pretty curious.

If someone pays you to use their logo, then you know you have their permission, otherwise it is technically infringement on trademarks and such.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

Heathansson wrote:

I got a wallet for Father's Day. Actually, it was a dice bag with a wallet in it for some reason.

I got a Tundra Scout. What kind of dice bag?

[Adam Daigle]

yoda8myhead wrote:

Daigle wrote:

Where's the line in that? I'm pretty curious.

If someone pays you to use their logo, then you know you have their permission, otherwise it is technically infringement on trademarks and such.

That totally makes sense, but is still weird.

[Rezdave]

Daigle wrote:

don't companies pay for product placement?

Usually, yes. Generally a company will pay a fee to have their product "placed" in a film or show, the more prominent the higher the cost. Sometimes a company's marketing firm will hunt down placement opportunities, while other times filmmakers will turn to placement to subsidize their budget (or low-budget films simply get free food or water or sodas to feed their crews). There was actually a gag in Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Pt. 2 (IIRC) where they ran out of money to make the film, and so turned to "product placement" to finish it, essentially turning the end of the movie into a great, big ad.

Even if you're not paid (or, I suppose, might have paid for the right to use the logo/trademark) there are E&O "Errors & Omissions" lawyers who do nothing but watch the show and make certain you have a legal release for every identifiable product or logo that appears on-screen.

Let's say you were making a movie about a group of role-players. You'd need permission from WotC to have any of the D&D Core Rulebooks on the table or even identifiable on the bookshelf, you'd need Paizo's permission for a Pathfinder AP used by the DM, Crown Royal's permission for the dice-bags (even though "everyone uses them"), you'd have to have script say "photocopy" rather than "xerox" (even though "everyone says it" the lawyers will insist on the change) and the actors must take a break from role-playing to enjoy a game of "flying disc-golf" unless you have Wham-O's permission to say "Frisbee".

There are lots of product placement stories out there, such as guys from Coca-cola who screen your film to make sure the cans have the right color "Coke-red", regardless of your "artistic intent" in the way you wanted the scene's color (it's contractual). Apple was on a kick for a long time with having Good Guys use Macs to save the world (most notably in Independence Day) and villains use PC clones. Apple for a while had a deal going with West Wing, where the President's staff used Macs (highly improbable in reality) with their prominent, back-lit logos. Then they got into a contractual tiff and for several episodes the logos were all covered with stickers of the Presidential Seal. Once the lawyers were playing nice again, the stickers came off.

Perhaps the most famous product-placement story is how M&Ms refused to allow their product to be used in E.T. so Reese's Pieces were used in their place, resulting in a sales bonanza for Hershey at the expense of M&M/Mars.

yoda8myhead wrote:

Daigle wrote:

Where's the line in that? I'm pretty curious.

If someone pays you to use their logo, then you know you have their permission, otherwise it is technically infringement on trademarks and such.

You have to get their permission. Whether they pay you or you pay them or no money changes hands is not really relevant. That is the simple answer.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to snapshots posted on a personal website or if the logo appears in the news.

However, if you are selling some product or service you can't use someone else's logos or trademarks without express permission. Otherwise, you're making money off their name and reputation. The only loop-hole is if you did work for the company then you can use a sample of that work (including logos) for self-promotion, such as a video demo-reel or a print brochure or business card that features logos and such of past clients. You can promote yourself in that context as someone who provided a service or product to that company (as this is a "fact"). Of course, your use of such "samples" must be limited.

Hmmm ....

Just have to say I'm surprised this thread has gotten so long.

FWIW,

Rez

[seekerofshadowlight]

well it is not promoting the company or the company product. It has a d20 on it. Now it this was an ad there would be an issue, but this is no different then pic from the con with a coke in them or a bag from white castle or something.

[Rezdave]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well it is not promoting the company or the company product. It has a d20 on it.

You're missing the point. The picture uses Crown Royal's trademark and brand recognition and quality reputation to promote Paizo. This constitutes an endorsement, which I presume is without CR's consent. It is thus trademark infringement.

The issue is not Paizo promoting Crown Royal, but the perception of the reverse.

Rez

[Adam Daigle]

Thank you for your explanation, Rez.

[Wolfram & Hart]

It's only recognizable if you are familiar with the bag. Otherwise, there is not enough of the trademark name, symbol and associated font to definitively be a Crown Royal bag. To the uninitiated, it's a gaudy purple bag with the word 'Royal' embroidered in gold thread, Palace font; nothing more.

[Sean K Reynolds]

I told ya, it's CLOWN Royal. :)

[Rezdave]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I told ya, it's CLOWN Royal. :)

Yah, Sean ... at this point in the conversation I'm beginning to think so :-)

R.

[dm4hire]

Well to be honest, since it is just one photo I doubt they'll come after Paizo. If it matters to them they'll receive a take down notice to which if Paizo doesn't follow through with the order and decide they can defend their position in having the picture up nothing will happen. If it bothers the lawyers for Crown Royal I am sure a take down notice will be issued, but I doubt they will show much interest in free publicity until it became a huge matter, i.e. multiple pictures and such.

[Kajehase]

If it bothers the Crown Royal lawyers they clearly have too much free time on their hand and a complete inability to recognise what's important and what isn't.

Sheesh - it's just a picture of a dice which happen to rest on a bag.

[Nstrivaxon, the Cunning]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I told ya, it's CLOWN Royal. :)

On behalf of my clients, Clown Royal, entertainers to Baron Bomburst of Vulgaria, I am instructed to present you with a Cease and Desist Order to remove the dice bag image from your blog. If you do not, then the Childcatcher will be sent around to make you cry and otherwise Be Really Sorry.

However in return for an appropriate payment, the Baron may be minded to permit you to resume use of the image of a Clown Royal dice bag.

[hallucitor]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

But, But ...they are time honored dice bags! That or wine sleeves. I say leave it up, I don't see it as a big deal I think it was more of a gamer thing then anything else. Everyone I know uses the crown royal baggy until they get to many dice

I don't see how this is any worse then having a coke or mountain dew in the background of a pic, which has happened many times

I still use both... crown royal bags and dice sleeves.....