|
Lini the Iconic Druid, Gnome is where the heart is.
Droogami not a shabby tabby either.
What???
Not a half-orc?
Shame on you! Don't you know half-orcs make the best druids???
Besides, I thought gnomes were monsters these days...
;)
More seriously:
"So while this ability [wildshape] allows Lini to become a respectable melee threat, it does not allow her to ignore her physical stats during creation if she wants to be good at combat."
And yet, she did...
I like the animal companion changes. I really do. Bonus points for that one.
I like the choice to go with a companion or a domain. But given the doemwhat downward changes to domains, and the upward changes to animal companions, I don't think it's a good trade off. In fact, with the BETA rules, my group houseruled that our druid simply got both - a companion and one domain.
Of course, the elephant in the room (no pun intended) is the wildshape. Speaking of elephants, if Lini turns into one, it only has a STR of 14, right? Without other magic to boost her STR, she can watch the other elephants pick up entire fallen trees with their trunks and move them around, and she can barely pick up a fallen branch.
I have always understood the necessity to bring wildshape under control. It was way overpowered in 3.x, without a doubt. But the Beta changes went way way too far, and the preview as much as says the Beta version made it into live.
Lini in elephant form is really just little more a gnome in a foam-rubber elephant costume. Wildshape went from overpowered to a simple party trick that will get Lini, and every other druid killed very fast if they make the mistake of wildshaping into a big bad bear, or lion, or tiger, or elephant, or t-rex, or whatever, then charge into combat. It's a death trap.
Even the druid who, unlike Lini, actually pumps up their STR and DEX to be able to fight (at the cost of WIS and CHA, will never be able to do it enough to be effective, not with 5 ability scores out of 6 that make a difference to the melee druid. That's even more MAD than paladins.
I am saddened by this woeful destruction of druid power, and I can say this having actually play-tested it, because the preview actually says "just as they did in the Beta playtest version of the rules" which I have playtested and we are playtesting right now.
The change to making the little bonuses from wildshape into size bonuses helps a bit, but it still requires Lini to pile magic upon magic in order to approximate the actual abilities of the things she wildshapes into. It's nice that she can do that now, which she couldn't as easily in Beta, but I fear it's not enough.
This preview is a mixed bag for me, and it's what I expected. The first thing we'll be doing is figuring out how to make wildshape useful without restoring it to ungodly 3.x power.
Yay the new wildshap stayed and it's a level lower...I am very glad to see this, as well as the most loved animal companion changes
Pull up chair, butters popcorn and loads kittens into the catapult
Pull up chair, butters popcorn and loads kittens into the catapult
Can we load it with politicians instead?
|
|
While this is a bit more complicated, it is far more dynamic, allowing for .... attempting to force a dragon to land by shooting him down.
Why would something like that be complicated ?
; )
Since Hide and Move Silently were combined into Stealth, the boots of elvenkind and cloak of elvenkind became a bit redundant. To alleviate this, the boots now grant a +5 bonus on Acrobatics checks.
I think we got a sneak peak at the rogue as well.
Woohoo! Size bonuses for wild shape! Dynamic animal companions! Size bonuses for wild shape!
Add size bonuses for wild shape, and you get a great preview!!!
Since Hide and Move Silently were combined into Stealth, the boots of elvenkind and cloak of elvenkind became a bit redundant. To alleviate this, the boots now grant a +5 bonus on Acrobatics checks.I think we got a sneak peak at the rogue as well.
Old news.
Your die alten furz.; p
What?
Lini is awesome. If for no other reason than she is finally getting out the damn way so we can check out Sajan next week.
Tam
LoL, it brings a tear to my enormous armored eye, but I think you're right.
Druid = mixed bag of goodness and sadness, but I knew it would be and I am not at all surprised or disappointed - I got what I have expected.
I sure am hoping monk is a full bag of goodness because if it is not, I will be disappointed.
I must say that i like what I see here...
Wild shape as size bonus.. nice, and sprinckle it with a bit o' magic you can have a party going.. I don't think it's a death trap, any more than everything else is when you rush recklesly into battle...
And I think it's a nice thing to have the animal companion grow in power in a much more dynamic way. I asume that this goes for all companions, both the paladin's mount and the ranger's as well...
So all in all, yet another point goes to the Paizo crew.. :)
And I'm soooo looking forward to the monk ;-)
Excellent.
I hoped in bigger changes to codzilla, but I must say that I like what I see.
They simpli had to be nerfed, but don't understimate the power of magic items (that now helps him also wildshaping) end the enlargement bonuses.
Very good job for companions! :)
Thanks Jason!
Director of Games
|
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I myself would like to thank you for keeping the wild shape changes. They are fair and balanced.
Dohp!!!
|
|
More seriously:
"So while this ability [wildshape] allows Lini to become a respectable melee threat, it does not allow her to ignore her physical stats during creation if she wants to be good at combat."
And yet, she did...
Along the size bonuses, this is probably the better piece of news regarding the druid class. Ever.
Even better than the animal companion progression or the faster wild shape progression.BTW, someone could give me a hint about that "defensive training" listed under Defensive Abilities?
Are HP & skill rank correct?
HP:8d8+3(con mod.)+1
Skill:acrobat+8(2rank+1dex+5item),fly+10(6rank+1dex+3), Handle Animal +10(4rank+3cha+3), Knowledge (nature) +8(6rank-1int+3), Perception +15(8rank+4wis+3), Survival +13(6rank+4wis+3);total32rank(8*(4-1Int+1))
Gnomes seem to lose their keen sense,hatred(and obsessive?)
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here, I had a 3.5 game where a player was a gnome druid who was as good if noth better than the fighter in combat, and because he had is STR as a massive dump stat in his actual form he had a ridiculous WIS and his attack spells were devastating, just short of the wizards.
This version is still a competent fighter, especially if geared towards it, but can't decide what class to equal with a class ability.
I realize that Lini's whole concept is that she's cute and good with animals, so I can see her having a 16 Charisma for roleplay reasons.
...but is there any mechanical dependency on Charisma that I'm not seeing? Sure, Handle Animal is important, but if she had a 10 Int and a 14 Charisma, she could have a +13 (+8 ranks, +3 class skill, +2 Cha)as opposed to a +10 (4 ranks, +3 class, +3 Cha) and still have 4 more skillpoints to spend.
I realize that the iconics are just samples, and aren't meant to be optimal...I'm just asking, is there a mechanical dependency on Charisma with the druid that I missed? Couldn't a wildshape focused druid pump his physicals at the expense of all his other stats but wisdom?
I'm not seeing this 5 stat dependency DM Blake mentions. Str, Con, Wis,sure. The others could be 10's and still work out fine with the right buff spells from were I sit.
More seriously:
"So while this ability [wildshape] allows Lini to become a respectable melee threat, it does not allow her to ignore her physical stats during creation if she wants to be good at combat."
And yet, she did...
Along the size bonuses, this is probably the better piece of news regarding the druid class. Ever.
Even better than the animal companion progression or the faster wild shape progression.BTW, someone could give me a hint about that "defensive training" listed under Defensive Abilities?
I asume that it's the gnome-thing with giants, but I might be mistaken... You know, dodge bonus to AC and such, or is that all? Well, that's my guess...
|
|
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Just want you to know that after playing a gnome druid for several weeks that the wildshape rules work great.
So now druids can stay in the new shape as long as they want? I think that is new. But good.
I myself would like to thank you for keeping the wild shape changes. They are fair and balanced.
They did not keep the changes. They improved on them! Size bonuses for president.
The real question is, if she wildshapes into a leopard can she...
you know...
...boy leopard meets girl leopard...
..
....
F...
|
|
It would have been more interesting to see Lini after level 12. From level 4 to 12, the druid is quite good. One of my players just attained level 4 with his half orc druid and his wild shaped combat prowess is quite impressive with his 20 strength in bear form.
The MAD isn't as bad as some folks might think. Unless most of your spells require saves the casting attribute isn't that important. In my campaign, both the druid and the sorcerer have more strength than charisma or wisdom.
|
|
They did not keep the changes. They improved on them! Size bonuses for president.
At least that removes the question how wild shape and enlarge person would work together. I would have preferred a polymorph or unnamed bonus instead of a medium character receiving a size bonus on strength for polymorphing into a medium creature.
But it's an improvement on the previous enhancement bonus.
I would say I am on board with those who think the druids wild shape was an ability that needed adjusting but not as much nerfing as it has been given. I think one ability or feat I might offer those who play druids in my games will be something like:
Natures Spirit
Prerequisites: Wild Shape
Benefit: For the purposes of determining ones ability scores when in wild shape form one may add their Wisdom Bonus to their physical stats. (or if I suddenly feel squemish about that I might have it apply to one physical state and include the ability to take the feat twice)
Another option I might do is give the above 'feat' with it applying only to one stat of choice to my druids free at 8th level and they can simply buy one or two more as they desire. That way I think it could give them a boost when necessary. There are other ways to adjust it as well, perhaps it can only apply to the physical statistic that gets the highest boost. Still, might be fun to play with.
Another option might be a feat that allows the Wild Shape ability to be something like a "Form of Natures Fury" that sort of acts as a combat powerup for the druid wherein they get a boost to their stats and abilities as normal but are still humanoid (albeit altered to fit their adjustments). Either of these might help keep the druids signature ability from seeming... pathetic.
Love the changes to animal companions.
And, as usual, I hate just about every needless nerf to the spells made and am upset that they probably haven't even been lowered in level to make up for the nerfing and blah blah blah blah. :P
Wildshape is probably the one ability from the pathfinder classes that I will not be using in my games. Shapeshift from PHB2 just seems so much simpler and fun. You get it from lvl 1, it's at will and a swift action, it's not broken like wildshape and natural spell doesn't work in it. The thing I didn't like with it was missing the animal companion. I think I'll end up allowing shapeshift druid a ranger quality companion.
The real question is, if she wildshapes into a leopard can she...
you know...
...boy leopard meets girl leopard...
..
....
ARRRGH!
Okay, the Druid then...
in my gaming group we had a lot of discussions about the Wild Shape (beta version) and they more or less came down to that we didn't understand them very well...
this looks good- can't wait for August...
GRU
|
though i still prefer the errata vs of wild shape from 3.5, the size bonus is much better the the enhancement bonus we had in the beta. I am also worried that the wild shape in PFRPG will be more stringent on what abilities they receive from the shapes the take, but we won't know that until the book comes put.
Once I have the book i will compare them and decide which version I will use.
Yay, Size Bonuses are excellent ! Finally a Druid can cast Bull's Strength and similar spells, (unlike in the Beta version) !
BTW, someone could give me a hint about that "defensive training" listed under Defensive Abilities?
It refers to a Gnome racial ability (at least, this was in the Beta):
"Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type."
Now I suspect it will be "of the giant subtype"
Think he wanted to say: "Du bist ein alter Furz". Which is a direct translation of: "You are an old Fart" and probably means that you are a seasoned roleplayer. :-)What?
Your die alten furz.; p
I guessed as much. A shame he messed up the German. And the English.
Baron: Du verjackerter Narr!
Yay, Size Bonuses are excellent ! Finally a Druid can cast Bull's Strength and similar spells, (unlike in the Beta version) !
BTW, someone could give me a hint about that "defensive training" listed under Defensive Abilities?
It refers to a Gnome racial ability (at least, this was in the Beta):
"Defensive Training: Gnomes get a +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant type."
Now I suspect it will be "of the giant subtype"
Look no further than preview 1 for confirmation...
|
|
Yay the new wildshap stayed and it's a level lower...I am very glad to see this, as well as the most loved animal companion changes
I like the changes to the way it works, but I think it would have been more elegant and internally consistent as *rounds* per day. Jason, can you tell us why you preferred the uses/day over rounds/day?
Otherwise it looks pretty good to me. :)
It seems that I am incapable of making DM Blake happy. So be it. The new rules might not let Lini the elephant to move trees, but it also does not let her outshine the melee classes with a single class ability either, and I believe this to be more than a fair trade. Especially when you consider the Druid is a full spellcasting class with an animal companion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If you factor size into lifting, she can still lift a good bit. A huge creature with a 14 strength can lift 700 pounds. It is not as much as an elephant, but it is still a good amount.
Add bull's strength and she can lift 1200 pounds...over half a ton.
What I find most interesting:
They did it! (unless it's a mistake) - "ring of deflection +2"
There was discussion of separating out "cloak of resistance" and "ring of protection = deflection" so that "protection" could go back to it's 1st edition roots of doing *both*
However... Valeros: "ring of protection +2"
So I don't know. Either way would be an easy mistake. Interesting anyhow :)
I am hoping that the Poison spell itself scales. It was way too swingy before (killed two beholders at darn low level with a longsword of venom), but this seems to be a bit much.
Size bonuses yay (yes, funny for 'changing' to the same size, but still).
As for the Elephant thing?... a quick perusal of the MM shows the following STR scores for all the huge animals in there (16,21,21,23,25,26,26,27,27,28,30,30). Top two are Elephant and Triceratops. If you're going to compare, at least compare to something mid-range.
I realize that Lini's whole concept is that she's cute and good with animals, so I can see her having a 16 Charisma for roleplay reasons.
Getting long...Spoiler:
...but is there any mechanical dependency on Charisma that I'm not seeing?Yes, but not a mechanical dependency of Lini, but of the design restrictions. All the iconics receive the default array (8,10,12,13,14,15). Lini has a +2 racial bonus to Cha . To get 14, her 12 would go there, but it's on Dex, and the 10 you want on Int is on Str.
Two stats have to have an 8 or 10, and Str can't get the 8 (6 Str iconic would be laughable). So this is just how it ends up working out. The default array works for most classes, but for some it gets a little quirky like that. For instance, just about every default array Monk will have an 8/10 Int/Cha (including Saijon next week), because every other stat needs a little bonus at least.
The Default array works out to a little bit randomness, a little bit logical spread. Basically, the classes that are hard to make with it, usually can be hard to make off random rolling as well.
I like the changes to the way it works, but I think it would have been more elegant and internally consistent as *rounds* per day. Jason, can you tell us why you preferred the uses/day over rounds/day?
Because wildshape has a very long duration. From the way it reads, it is infinite in PF.
You only need uses to turn into different kinds of critters.
|
|
At least they gave her Natural Spell as a feat. Improved Initative not so much. I would have given her Extra Wildshape. Same thing with Weapon Focus. Augemnt summoning imo is so much more better and useful for a Druid. The art for the character is the only one that makes me laugh. I'm sorry but she looks like a Digimon who forgot to wash the green dye out of her her.
At least they gave her Natural Spell as a feat. Improved Initative not so much. I would have given her Extra Wildshape. Same thing with Weapon Focus. Augemnt summoning imo is so much more better and useful for a Druid.
Doesn't matter. She's not to go into the Arena to pvp others. She doesn't have to be min-maxed. She just has to show us how druids work.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
At least they gave her Natural Spell as a feat. Improved Initative not so much. I would have given her Extra Wildshape. Same thing with Weapon Focus. Augemnt summoning imo is so much more better and useful for a Druid. The art for the character is the only one that makes me laugh. I'm sorry but she looks like a Digimon who forgot to wash the green dye out of her her.
Hmm, she can change into a small T-rex with flame strike available in that form.
"Lini Digivolve into Greymon!"
The animal companion changes are great. This alone makes me want to consider playing a Druid.
The Wildshape changes with the switch to a size bonus seem well balanced to me. CoDzilla is gone but there is enough flavor left over for me to consider playing a Druid over a Cleric.
Even the druid who, unlike Lini, actually pumps up their STR and DEX to be able to fight (at the cost of WIS and CHA, will never be able to do it enough to be effective, not with 5 ability scores out of 6 that make a difference to the melee druid. That's even more MAD than paladins.
Not sure where the idea that you need 5 stats to be effective in combat comes from. I would say that a combat focused Druid needs 2 good stats, 2 middling stats and has 2 dump stats. You will want a good Strength and Wisdom and if you can swing it a decent Dexterity - although this is not required as you will start taking penalties to it while wildshaped, Constitution is nice but not required given your access to healing and curing magic, Charisma isn't required for combat and only really comes into effect when considering skills which can be improved with levels and feats, everyone seems to agree that Intelligence is not a requirement.
Wildshape is giving you bonuses roughly on par with Barbarian Rage, and grants you access to more attacks per round than you should normally be allowed, so considering you are also a full progression spell caster this doesn't seem bad at all.
Final, personal, note: I have loved gnomes since the days of Dragonlance. Thanks for making a respectable, gnomish Iconic.