There is a clear hostility in this thread, and it only works in one direction.
If you are feeling hostility, perhaps it is because you unapologetically insult people on these forums.
Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting you do it on purpose. But when "called" on it, you nearly flat out said you didn't care.
I'll step up and take the title of "Worlds Loudest 4e Hater," (it isn't true, but I'll accept it for this discussion) and I have yet to be told that some one finds my posts insulting. If any one knows of any, please point them out.
I'd normally say a lot more here, but since I tone down my real world speach patterns for the internet, I'll stop here.
The posts that I choose not to respond to are not ones that I agree with, just that I feel that their argument is so warped from my perception of reality that I just have difficulty wrapping my head around it to produce a proper, polite response, or that from the person's previous posts that any discussion with them will cumulation in no beneficial effect (including if I just view the poster as insulting).
In both these cases I have learned that I just waste my time typing responses that I often end up deleting, that I'm just giving the other poster another reason to continue delivering opinion that I disagree with, and that often the opposing person ends up insulting me for one reason or another.
If I feel there is a post out of line, I flag it, otherwise I try to leave it alone rather than keeping the posts coming. Sometimes I break this rules on a whim, but overall I attempt to stick to them
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I must be a real oddity, because although I'm a fanatical Paizonian, and am looking forward eagerly to getting my hands on Pathfinder as my system of choice, I don't bear any particular animosity towards WotC. Sure, I don't like their current system, but on the other hand, it doesn't move me to any real antipathy, either.
You're not that much of an oddity.
I think WotC is showing a lot of tin-earedness but I bear them no animosity. Their latest system departs too much from its roots to appeal to me to any real degree but I have Pathfinder so I am satisfied.
As for the PDFs, WotC has produced very few books, even under 3e, that really moved me to want them. And as for out of print books, I much prefer the thrill of hunting up the physical copies. Still, I really feel for those that had the rug yanked out from under them and can understand those that are a bit miffed. Empathy is a good thing and both sides of the debate should remember that.
There is a clear hostility in this thread, and it only works in one direction.If you are feeling hostility, perhaps it is because you unapologetically insult people on these forums.
Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting you do it on purpose. But when "called" on it, you nearly flat out said you didn't care.
I'll step up and take the title of "Worlds Loudest 4e Hater," (it isn't true, but I'll accept it for this discussion) and I have yet to be told that some one finds my posts insulting. If any one knows of any, please point them out.
I'd normally say a lot more here, but since I tone down my real world speach patterns for the internet, I'll stop here.
I've been following the thread on and off for days, and I don't remember reading a post where Scott insulted anyone. Are you referring to the comment about there being pirates in the Paizo fanbase? (Which is a practical certainty, depending upon how one wishes to define "Fanbase"). I don't see how one could infer from that that Scott said there were pirates reading this thread. Or is there something else I missed?
While I don't agree with Scott, I do think he's trying to make a logical argument in good faith (and doing pretty well, too). Just because I'm angered past the point of caring doesn't mean I don't know the difference.
I've been following the thread on and off for days, and I don't remember reading a post where Scott insulted anyone. Are you referring to the comment about there being pirates in the Paizo fanbase? (Which is a practical certainty, depending upon how one wishes to define "Fanbase"). I don't see how one could infer from that that Scott said there were pirates reading this thread. Or is there something else I missed?
I certainly don't recall anything much in this thread beyond what you have just mentioned. He may be referring to other threads within the forums, which I would be inclined to agree with (but don't agree with responding to lack of respect in one case with lack of respect overall), but I don't recall anything from the thread.
I've been following the thread on and off for days, and I don't remember reading a post where Scott insulted anyone.
Mind if I tell you I hate you for making me track this down? :-P
If my forum fu is strong, the post in question is this one.
There. It works now.
It's a sad thing to see the Edition Wars revitalized by this badly-handled manuver. Once again our hobby is convulsed with hate and rhetoric. No matter what your stance on the issue, I think we can all agree that someone in the PR department over at WotC was asleep at the switch.
I enjoyed the 2nd Edition PDFs. I currently run a Planescape PbP on these very boards and use my PDFs to research my game without having to lug about my collection of dead tree books (which are starting to get a bit fragile with age and use). My only regret is I didn't have a chance to complete my collection.
More to the point I am disappointed that instead of reaching out to disaffected customers, WotC seems to be bent on alienating them further. That is a shame. At one time I considered WotC a shining paragon among gaming companies, and I supported them every month with a purchase of a hardcover book and my magazine subscriptions. I had hoped with the dying down of the Edition Wars that they would see fit to release 3E PDFs for a similar price that other 'obsolete' editions went for. I guess we have our answer on that now.
Debating the motives behind WoTC's actions is simple theorization. People angered about it, or BY THE WAY THEY DID IT, are not going to be swayed by arguments no matter how politely they're framed.
Setting yourself up as their voice, or the vocal minority, only directs the other voices against you. Crying foul about it is silly.
Even while their decision has a minimal impact on me, it still rubs me wrong. That's my opinion, and it's my choice how I act upon it. Yes, it may be an emotional one but as an old gamer I remember the old days with a bit of fondness. Another emotional POV.
But that's not insulting...it's saying that if, for some reason, someone was insulted by his statement then tough. I get that. He never pointed fingers at anyone and called them a pirate...and he didn't say that everyone was a pirate. If anyone that isn't a pirate was insulted I can't fathom why.
I don't recall Scott insulting anyone on this thread. He was often *condescending* but I don't remember him being insulting. Maybe I missed it.
M
EDITed:: Because I think the post I was replying to was deleted.
I didn't mean to suggest that he violated any rules. But if his best response to a forum member that claims to be insulted is "you'll have to stay insulted," then he shouldn't be surprised to feel hostility.
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Look, Scott can be annoying enough that he makes me want to change my avatar, but the post you linked doesn't violate any forum rules. Is this thread that much of a dead horse?
Funny, I thought you had changed your name to "Caesar" and were peddling yourself at The Sizzler salad bar.
Man, was I wrong...
Mind if I tell you I hate you for making me track this down? :-PIf my forum fu is strong, the post in question is this one.
There. It works now.
Hehe...hating me puts you in good company. ;)
Back to the topic at hand, Scott said "If you are insulted by my saying that the Paizo fanbase contains pirates, I'm afraid you're just going to have to stay insulted."
I'm just not seeing it. Scott insulting someone isn't the same as someone finding insult in an (almostly certainly factual) statement about a group. Again, depending upon how one wishes to define "Paizo fanbase," it is exceedingly likely that Scott is correct. I suppose you could say that anyone who pirates isn't a true fan, but I don't think that is what was intended. Scott also didn't single anyone out (which would have been unacceptable without evidence).
P.S. Would you please stop making me defend the guy defending WotC? :)
Look, Scott can be annoying enough that he makes me want to change my avatar, but the post you linked doesn't violate any forum rules. Is this thread that much of a dead horse?Funny, I thought you had changed your name to "Caesar" and were peddling yourself at The Sizzler salad bar.
Man, was I wrong...
Are you mocking me, little man? Minions! Have at him.
I just want to chime in to say that Scott Betts is a model of calm, rational reasonable debate. He does this messageboard proud, and is the sort of person I would really enjoy spending time with in any forum or activity.
I am an occasional pirate. I am part of the Paizo fanbase. I am glad I downloaded the fourth edition core set pdf before my amazon order was processed, which gave me the chance to cancel the order. I was excited by the prospect of fourth edition, right up to my first readthrough of the ruleset. Now I actively dislike it, and don't want anything to do with it. There are very few things in this hobby I dislike. I strongly dislike 4e. I also have a strong charge of residual bitterness toward WotC for some of the decisions that have been made in the past few years. That said, I know that the company WotC, is made up, in part, of passionate gamers. Geeks like us. They may be a minority, and may be only one flavour in a corporate mix, but they are certainly there.
For this reason, I choose to be careful and respectful when discussing the makers of fourth edition. It may not be for me, but it is certainly for some people, and they have an emotional commitment to their game that is as strong as any Paizonian commitment to Pathfinder.
It is valid to rant. This is a public forum, and a damn fine one at that. Just please think of the human beings who make roleplaying games for a living, and be kind to them. They dedicate themselves to making games that are fun to play. They may have widely divergent ideas from your own on what constitutes fun. I certainly find fourth edition appalling, but I know that for others, it is the best edition yet. Rant away, but try not to be a dick about it.
It may be too late for the Paizo files, but I got this e-mail last night. IT ONLY PERTAINS TO FILES ALREADY PURCHASED FROM DRIVETHRU OR RPGNOW.
WOTC DOWNLOAD RECOVERY DAY, APRIL 15TH
By now, you have probably learned that Wizards of the Coast recently decided to cease the sale of digital download versions of their books. This means that RPGNow and DriveThruRPG will no longer be able to offer you future downloads of Wizards titles you have purchased.
We are offering you a final 24-hour period in which to re-download copies of any Wizards of the Coast files you have purchased from us in the past. If there are any titles you purchased, and you need a new copy of the file for your personal archive, this is your last chance to get it.
This 24-hour period will begin at 10:00 AM EST (U.S.A. Eastern Time Zone), Wednesday, April 15th and will conclude at 10:00 AM EST on Tuesday, April 16th.
During this time you may visit DriveThruRPG or RPGNow, log in, and click the My Account link found in the upper right corner of the site. Or just visit one of these links:
DriveThruRPG http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/account.php
RPGNow http://www.rpgnow.com/account.php
For the “My Account” page you will find your order history and download links, including a handy option to view all products updated since your last download of that title (for example a file that was updated with errata since you last downloaded it). During your visit, we certainly invite you to take a look around and see all the titles we have to offer for rpg PDF fans.
As always, thank you for your continuing support of all that we do, and we welcome your feedback and any questions you may have.
Sincerely,
Sean Patrick Fannon
DriveThruRPG and RPGNow
P.S. Would you please stop making me defend the guy defending WotC? :)
With such a reasonable request, I'll strive to oblige. :-)
Are you mocking me, little man? Minions! Have at him.Look, Scott can be annoying enough that he makes me want to change my avatar, but the post you linked doesn't violate any forum rules. Is this thread that much of a dead horse?Funny, I thought you had changed your name to "Caesar" and were peddling yourself at The Sizzler salad bar.
Man, was I wrong...
Yeah. Leave the boss alone. It's not easy being green, y'know.
I can't beleaf some people.
Are you mocking me, little man? Minions! Have at him.Look, Scott can be annoying enough that he makes me want to change my avatar, but the post you linked doesn't violate any forum rules. Is this thread that much of a dead horse?Funny, I thought you had changed your name to "Caesar" and were peddling yourself at The Sizzler salad bar.
Man, was I wrong...
Yeah. Leave the boss alone. It's not easy being green, y'know.
I can't beleaf some people.
They're a bunch of saps, but don't worry. Their bark is worse than their bite. :)
*Gathering his sheep posse*
"Good eats, boys, have at it!"
Shouldn't you sheep be over on the WotC boards? :)
That should take care of 'em.
*Gathering his sheep posse*
"Good eats, boys, have at it!"
Another Saturday night gets wild. Just houstonderek and a sheep posse...
Another Saturday night gets wild. Just houstonderek and a sheep posse...*Gathering his sheep posse*
"Good eats, boys, have at it!"
I thought that was more of a Wyoming or Wales thing. (Makes like a tree and gets out of here)
This thread just keeps looking better and better.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Am I mad that WotC pulled the PDFs? Yes.
Am I mad that their inital excuse of 'piracy' seems to be that, an excuse? Yes. Their admitted plans to not make the PDFs available again is proof enough for me.
Was I mad when they pulled the Dragon and Dungeon Licenses, and the Dragonlance License? Yes. Even though the results gave us the Adventure Paths and KQ, I was still mad.
Did the release of 4.x in and of itself upset me? No. Making it so different from 3.x, and the poorly executed marketing campaign did that. Blowing up the Realms (again!) did that.
End result? WotC doesn't get any of my C-bills anymore. White Wolf had the same thing when they killed WoD 1, I looked at WoD 2 and went meh.
What makes me mad is the ham handedness of the way they did it. The suddeness of it, the lack of recourse and the ever shifting explinations. Even the arguement 'if they'd delayed it would have been a last call for pirates' rings hollow. If there are PDFs of the PHB II out there, does anyone really buy that there are -any- pdfs out there that don't exist in a cracked version? Heck, there was a cracked verson of Jihad Hotspots 3076 and TP Tharkad on a torrent site the day after Catalyst released them, and no one can argue that Battletech has as many players as D&D.
And yes, I'm waiting for my FLGS to get 3076 and I bought my PDF of TP:Tharkad.
Edit: Good on WotC to make a one shot download day. It's too little too late, but at least it means someone over there realizes what a Charlie Foxtrot they've danced.
1) They didn't just stop sales on no notice, they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for. There's a big difference between that and an immediate halt to new sales, with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 days) for customers to download material they had already bought.If they already got a download, then they already got the content they paid for. I don't know why we have to keep running around this bush again. If a customer doesn't back up their own material then they are ignorant or naive. At least two different pdf sellers, one of which is Paizo, have said that there was never any kind of guarantee that anyone was going to get more than one download.
A lot (perhaps most) online content sellers of non-gaming material only give you one download total. People lost a bonus and they act like they are being punished.
So the people who had just bought content in the last couple days and (for whatever reason) hadn't downloaded it yet are just SOL? Maybe they don't get on the Internet every day (or several times a day) to check their e-mail? What about customers in Europe, who didn't find out about the deadline until right before, or even after, it had passed (due to the time zone difference)?
Stop trying to shift the issue from the extremely short time frame that WotC required distributors to meet by trying to make it into "whining crybabies" complaining about a loss of convenience.
Interesting, notice the things I bolded. I said they got one of their downloads already, and you change the situation to people who didn't get a single download yet. I might point out that in a post above that at least one company is going to have an additional download day for those customers. Also I believe this particular company had previous said they would have given a full refund to people that purchased a pdf and didn't get a chance to get a single download.
Interesting, notice the things I bolded. I said they got one of their downloads already, and you change the situation to people who didn't get a single download yet. I might point out that in a post above that at least one company is going to have an additional download day for those customers. Also I believe this particular company had previous said they would have given a full...1) They didn't just stop sales on no notice, they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for. There's a big difference between that and an immediate halt to new sales, with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 days) for customers to download material they had already bought.If they already got a download, then they already got the content they paid for. I don't know why we have to keep running around this bush again. If a customer doesn't back up their own material then they are ignorant or naive. At least two different pdf sellers, one of which is Paizo, have said that there was never any kind of guarantee that anyone was going to get more than one download.
A lot (perhaps most) online content sellers of non-gaming material only give you one download total. People lost a bonus and they act like they are being punished.
So the people who had just bought content in the last couple days and (for whatever reason) hadn't downloaded it yet are just SOL? Maybe they don't get on the Internet every day (or several times a day) to check their e-mail? What about customers in Europe, who didn't find out about the deadline until right before, or even after, it had passed (due to the time zone difference)?
Stop trying to shift the issue from the extremely short time frame that WotC required distributors to meet by trying to make it into "whining crybabies" complaining about a loss of convenience.
Right, the distributor is making the cutomer service effort (probably after negotiating with WotC). WotC basically didn't care until after the outcry. And note my post at the top of the quote ("they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for"); you are the one who keeps trying to turn this into "customers who have already downloaded."
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I looked at WoD 2 and went meh
Really? I very much liked it.. I've never actually had a chance to play it, despite the fact i bought the core book, vampire, werewolf, and mage when they first hit the shelves.. I'd really like to though..
Was there anything specific that you didn't like? Or did the product in general simply not 'Wow' you?
Right, the distributor is making the cutomer service effort (probably after negotiating with WotC). WotC basically didn't care until after the outcry. And note my post at the top of the quote ("they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for"); you are the one who keeps trying to turn this into "customers who have already downloaded."
Because I would think a company worth anything was already going to give a refund to those that never got a single download. Also, I imagine that the people that never downloaded a file even once is probably substantially smaller than the total number of people that had purchased files. So it just seems extremely stupid to me to focus on a very small portion of the pdf buying population that already going to most likely get a refund and thus are not "harmed" by not getting to download a file.
Let me ask you this then, are you saying then that people who did download at least one copy are not victims? And that it is only the people that didn't get a chance to download a copy that are victims?
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Right, the distributor is making the cutomer service effort (probably after negotiating with WotC). WotC basically didn't care until after the outcry. And note my post at the top of the quote ("they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for"); you are the one who keeps trying to turn this into "customers who have already downloaded."Because I would think a company worth anything was already going to give a refund to those that never got a single download. Also, I imagine that the people that never downloaded a file even once is probably substantially smaller than the total number of people that had purchased files. So it just seems extremely stupid to me to focus on a very small portion of the pdf buying population that already going to most likely get a refund and thus are not "harmed" by not getting to download a file.
Let me ask you this then, are you saying then that people who did download at least one copy are not victims? And that it is only the people that didn't get a chance to download a copy that are victims?
The above Pres Man post was # 1337.
:)
Right, the distributor is making the cutomer service effort (probably after negotiating with WotC). WotC basically didn't care until after the outcry. And note my post at the top of the quote ("they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for"); you are the one who keeps trying to turn this into "customers who have already downloaded."Because I would think a company worth anything was already going to give a refund to those that never got a single download. Also, I imagine that the people that never downloaded a file even once is probably substantially smaller than the total number of people that had purchased files. So it just seems extremely stupid to me to focus on a very small portion of the pdf buying population that already going to most likely get a refund and thus are not "harmed" by not getting to download a file.
Let me ask you this then, are you saying then that people who did download at least one copy are not victims? And that it is only the people that didn't get a chance to download a copy that are victims?
I'm saying that WotC's decision to completely pull access in such a short time-frame created many victims. The ones who purchased material they were unable to download (even if they did get refunds) got stiffed the worst. Through no fault of their own, they were denied a product they were willing to pay for. The ones who lost the convenience of additional downloads are still victims, since that convenience (even if not "guaranteed in perpetuity") was probably part of their decision to purchase from that distributor.
It's heartening that two distributors have received permission to allow their customers one last chance to download already purchased items. However, that does not change the fact that this whole situation could have been avoided in the first place with a less heavy-handed approach by WotC (my suggested immediate freeze on new sales and 2-3 days to download).
So far, WotC has handled this situation extremely poorly in terms of PR and customer good will. The way they keep pissing off portions of the gaming market is disturbing.
I'm going to bow out of this particular line of discussion. There is a clear hostility in this thread, and it only works in one direction. When radicalized posts like Pax's go without address while civil posts are diminished because of their take on the topic, there can be no honest discussion. You should absolutely call me on it when I make a claim that lacks support. You should also absolutely call others on it when they do the same. That is not occurring, and it's a sign that the other participants in this thread are not interested in an intellectually honest discussion, but rather in perpetuating a particular echo chamber environment.
It's fitting that a couple of you are mentioning how you've been driven out of the WotC and ENWorld forums. The general attitude here is becoming increasingly insular. There are some level-headed individuals who post here to engage in discussion, but that is becoming less the norm.
I gotta call you on this load of baloney. Why should any of us take on the radicalized posts if you're already doing it? Do we all have to do it to participate in this discussion? Wouldn't that be a colossal waste of everybody's time?
Can anyone provide an e-mail address of a hasbro or wotc exec where we can write to?
Well... If you click to download a WotC file from Drivethru RPG, the pop-up suggests using the WotC forums.
That is all I can do to help, and I know it wasn't what you asked.
If you want facts then go read the court documents WOTC submitted. By their own numbers they only sold "hundreds of thousands of the core rule books", so WOTC is big, but they are not "6 million D&D games world wide" strong. Using estimated ratios of 1 DM to 6 players, with only one set of core rule books among them, there are at most just shy of 2 Million 4E players. If you estimate 3 players in each group have a PH with 1 DMG/MM per group then the number drops to about 1 million. IF you assume close to equal numbers of each core book owned by each player, then it could be lower than 333,333. WOTC may not have gave exact numbers, but they are good enough that my range of below 333,333 to a maximum of 2 million 4E players is accurate, with 500,000 likely being the closest.
There you have my source, and my numbers are reliable estimates. If you don't want to believe me I don't care, but my range estimate is correct.
My personal guess would put the accurate numbers closest to 250,000 4E players.
Could be less than 250k. I picked up the core rules so I could see what they were like, and I've kept up with the others in PDF format (legal downloads only), but I don't actually play. People like me who bought the core and for whatever reason didn't play would skew the real player estimates even more.
For that matter I don't play Pathfinder either, though I enjoy the books for reading. Lack of time and a group unfortunately.
If you want facts then go read the court documents WOTC submitted. By their own numbers they only sold "hundreds of thousands of the core rule books", so WOTC is big, but they are not "6 million D&D games world wide" strong. Using estimated ratios of 1 DM to 6 players, with only one set of core rule books among them, there are at most just shy of 2 Million 4E players. If you estimate 3 players in each group have a PH with 1 DMG/MM per group then the number drops to about 1 million. IF you assume close to equal numbers of each core book owned by each player, then it could be lower than 333,333. WOTC may not have gave exact numbers, but they are good enough that my range of below 333,333 to a maximum of 2 million 4E players is accurate, with 500,000 likely being the closest.
There you have my source, and my numbers are reliable estimates. If you don't want to believe me I don't care, but my range estimate is correct.
My personal guess would put the accurate numbers closest to 250,000 4E players.
I would place the range of people who play 4th Edition at between 2 million and 4 million players, using the same figures you cite.
Could be less than 250k. I picked up the core rules so I could see what they were like, and I've kept up with the others in PDF format (legal downloads only), but I don't actually play. People like me who bought the core and for whatever reason didn't play would skew the real player estimates even more.
For that matter I don't play Pathfinder either, though I enjoy the books for reading. Lack of time and a group unfortunately.
As I've pointed out elsewhere, the number of people who bought the books and don't play is probably dwarfed by the number of people who didn't by the books but who play anyway - whether by using communally available books (the DM's, their friend's, a library's) or by using illegal digital copies of the books.
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Searching Google turns up nothing but torrent-trap pages made by websites that monitor search traffic with words like "torrent" in it, create misleading webpages that purport to contain links to the torrent requested, and merely redirect you to other websites instead.
In other words, there are no Arcane Power torrents available yet.
But sure, keep on jumping to those baseless conclusions!
I mean, really, which link did you think actually contained an actual copy of Arcane Power? The sumotorrent one?
Just be a little bit creative and you get to the pirated stuff.
Needless to say that I won't actually download it to see if it is the true stuff.
So all I can say that there are enough pages who, if you click on them, warn you that you are about to download potentially copyrighted stuff.
So, Mr. Betts, please do not accuse me of jumping to baseless conclusions.
It may be too late for the Paizo files, but I got this e-mail last night. IT ONLY PERTAINS TO FILES ALREADY PURCHASED FROM DRIVETHRU OR RPGNOW.
WOTC DOWNLOAD RECOVERY DAY, APRIL 15TH
By now, you have probably learned that Wizards of the Coast recently decided to cease the sale of digital download versions of their books. This means that RPGNow and DriveThruRPG will no longer be able to offer you future downloads of Wizards titles you have purchased.We are offering you a final 24-hour period in which to re-download copies of any Wizards of the Coast files you have purchased from us in the past. If there are any titles you purchased, and you need a new copy of the file for your personal archive, this is your last chance to get it.
This 24-hour period will begin at 10:00 AM EST (U.S.A. Eastern Time Zone), Wednesday, April 15th and will conclude at 10:00 AM EST on Tuesday, April 16th.
During this time you may visit DriveThruRPG or RPGNow, log in, and click the My Account link found in the upper right corner of the site. Or just visit one of these links:
DriveThruRPG http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/account.php
RPGNow http://www.rpgnow.com/account.phpFor the “My Account” page you will find your order history and download links, including a handy option to view all products updated since your last download of that title (for example a file that was updated with errata since you last downloaded it). During your visit, we certainly invite you to take a look around and see all the titles we have to offer for rpg PDF fans.
As always, thank you for your continuing support of all that we do, and we welcome your feedback and any questions you may have.
Sincerely,
Sean Patrick Fannon
DriveThruRPG and RPGNow
I saw this over on ENWorld too and it got me wondering...
Vic posted earlier that the WotC pdf files were no longer on the Paizo servers, yet for DriveThru and RPGNow to offer this extra download day they either have had to have kept the files (thus either getting different orders from WotC or yet another miscommunication) or they have to get all the files from WotC again (or they might have off-server copies of all of the files) and set up the whole shebang once more (which Vic said would be possible, but would require quite a lot of effort).|
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Let's assume hundreds of thousands core books really means hundreds of thousands player handbooks. If we limit the range to 200,000-900,000 (thereby excluding "just over 100,000" and "nearly a million"), we end up with 302,000 - 1,356,000 book equivalents in use.
Some individuals acquire multiple copies either for replacement, alternate format use, or other reasons. Other individuals acquire the books, but do not play. Let's assume 10% of acquisitions are negated. The range is now 271,800 - 1,220,400.
Most games have more than one copy of the book. Let's set the average number of books per table at 2. That provides 135,900 - 610,200 games. WotC survey of games found the mode size of a game was 4 players and the DM. That's why the expected party size fell from 6 to 4 in 3e.
That places the number of gamers playing 4e between 679,500 and 3,051,000.
You know it just struck me this morning.
WotC says there are an estimated 6 million D&D players. But there is a bit of misdirection here in that almost all of us realize that this number does not represent 6 million 4e players. WotC then is still counting those that play older editions of Dungeons and Dragons as players. I'm not sure what that means, but I am convinced it means something. :-)
Interestingly, the polls on ENWorld indicate that we should estimate that about 50% of the roleplaying community play 4e. This would put the number at around 3 million.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I looked at WoD 2 and went mehReally? I very much liked it.. I've never actually had a chance to play it, despite the fact i bought the core book, vampire, werewolf, and mage when they first hit the shelves.. I'd really like to though..
Was there anything specific that you didn't like? Or did the product in general simply not 'Wow' you?
The Mechanics were better, the meshing helped, but it was the world. Just kind of 'meh'.
Vampire - It doesn't take much to make Caine/Antedeluvians/Gehenna a myth and untrue in WoD 1. I also didn't like the universal unifying vampire theme.
Werewolf - This one I'll actually steal the creation myths if I were to run a W:TA game. I like how it's no longer 'Fuzzy Captain Planet' But I didn't like the tribes so much, if I want 'The Pure' I've Red Talons and Shadow Lords for that.
Mage - I looked at the magic system and my head exploded. And I understood M:TA.
It's gone downhill as far as I'm concerned, now that we have clan books for Vampire, and ferra for Werewolf. Both of which were called out as not being in WoD2.
(my emphasis)
...For this thought exercise let's assume the population of gamers is inherently ten times more likely to engage in copyright violation than music listeners. I don't think it is a fair assumption, but let's see if it makes a difference in the end. So we'll set the download : lost sale ratio to 500 : 1.
We've been told the pdf download legal : illegal ratio is 1 : 10. So WotC lost 1 / 500 * 10 / 1 = 2% of the legal pdf downloads in sales. We also know the books sales outstripped pdf sales. Unfortunately we don't know figures so let's assume the ratio of book : pdf sales is 2 : 1 (almost certainly too high by an order of magnitude). That means WotC total sales are 150% of book sales and the loss to piracy is about 0.67% of total sales. So at 10x the discovered rate of violation in an easier format, piracy would still have no discernable effect on total number of sales.
Thanks for spending the time on this excellent analysis. I hope those who think WotC's move was in order to fight piracy read it twice before responding.
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(my emphasis)
Thanks for spending the time on this excellent analysis. I hope those who think WotC's move was in order to fight piracy read it twice before responding....For this thought exercise let's assume the population of gamers is inherently ten times more likely to engage in copyright violation than music listeners. I don't think it is a fair assumption, but let's see if it makes a difference in the end. So we'll set the download : lost sale ratio to 500 : 1.
We've been told the pdf download legal : illegal ratio is 1 : 10. So WotC lost 1 / 500 * 10 / 1 = 2% of the legal pdf downloads in sales. We also know the books sales outstripped pdf sales. Unfortunately we don't know figures so let's assume the ratio of book : pdf sales is 2 : 1 (almost certainly too high by an order of magnitude). That means WotC total sales are 150% of book sales and the loss to piracy is about 0.67% of total sales. So at 10x the discovered rate of violation in an easier format, piracy would still have no discernable effect on total number of sales.
Sounds like a nice smokescreen. I suppose it must be part of their DDI plans, really, and nothing else. It would be a lot cooler if they would just come out and say it.