Actually, that wasn't part of my logic at all because it wasn't part of Disenchanter's claim - he was talking about how things would be if the illegal PDFs didn't exist.No. No I wasn't. Not one bit.
Yes, you were. And I quote:
What we're trying to say is, pirates who downloaded the illegal PHB2 just to have the PHB2, weren't going to pay for it anyway even if the illegal PDF didn't exist.
Emphasis mine. I was responding to that scenario, because the argument I quoted was based on it, and that argument was not valid because of the reasons I explained.
What we're trying to say is, pirates who downloaded the illegal PHB2 just to have the PHB2, weren't going to pay for it anyway even if the illegal PDF didn't exist.Emphasis mine. I was responding to that scenario, because the argument I quoted was based on it,
Wrong.
That was an additional argument, one you didn't quote.
EDIT: I'd accept that I misspoke in this quote. That I over exaggerated to illustrate my point.
But that still doesn't invalidate my response to the reasons you listed.
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I guess, ultimately, I just don't understand why WotC isn't building on the experience of far larger industries, companies and other entities who have been battling distribution of their digital content for years.
They took upon themselves the knee-jerk reaction that the RIAA and MPAA took over a decade ago with their respective industries; which has subsequently started to move to a non-DRM model as far as back the middle of 2008
DRM Officially Dead
They obviously haven't taken the time to read up on the multi-million dollar consumer studies performed by digital content distributors like iTunes and now Netflix, who discovered that for the most part "Piracy" isn't always from a distinct desire for something free, but from a distinct desire of the consumer to be in complete control of the use of their content; they can access it whenever, however they want - that's why digital music is such a success, with a single purchase I can have it in my car, on my stereo, on my ipod, on my PC, etc etc.
They haven't taken the time to see what's happening with content developers who are offering better service and no DRM in the PC space with developers like Stardock.
They haven't taken a note from companies who've had other PR disasters, like Sony with their DRM infections, who tried to hide behind their market leadership position and didn't interface properly with their customers.
The list goes on really.
WotC just feels like a company with their blinders on to the realities of working within this new arena, and rather than learning from the mistakes of others ... well ...
Monte Cook says it best:
"it's become clear that WotC's become a company that not only doesn't value experience, it avoids it."
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I have a question, because I know almost nothing about pirating books. I'm not even sure if this will make sense. So if I buy a real copy of PHB 4th Ed 2 and I also download an "illegal copy", is that against the law? Does actually owning a book make a pdf verion legal for you?
I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.
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I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.
Apologies. I live in North America.
So, if I go out and buy this book, (not going to happen, I sold all three core 4th ed books within two months. . .), rip out the pages and go make myself a digital copy on my scanned at work, is this illegal?
I have a question, because I know almost nothing about pirating books. I'm not even sure if this will make sense. So if I buy a real copy of PHB 4th Ed 2 and I also download an "illegal copy", is that against the law? Does actually owning a book make a pdf verion legal for you?I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.
Vagrant, Beckett ask if it's ok if he buy a book legally and later download a pirate version.
Not if he scans himself his own book.I don't think it's legal anywhere on this planet to download something illegally, even if you own a legal version of the original.
People like to talk about 'raising the barrier for piracy', a barrier assumes an obstacle that everyone needs to cross. 'Piracy' is like piercing a balloon, when you pierce it once, it blows. And everyone can get at the contents.
A better analogy would be increasing the toughness of the balloon's skin.
But the barrier analogy does work in one way in an atmosphere where piracy exists: the barrier to purchasing a legal copy rather than resorting to piracy. If the barrier is too high, the pirate version is too attractive to pass up. That's why that $2-3 model has the potential to work for a lot of consumers.
Unfortunately, I do believe that price point is simply too low for the 4e stuff that's not out of print. It's simply not a sustainable price given the R&D costs. That said, I think WotC would be well-put to figure out how much of the price of the books comes from printing, shipping, inventory overhead, and all that. Deduct it from their retail price and use that as their starting point for pricing PDFs. Add maybe 5-10% to that and that should make for a nice tidier profit than the books on a per-unit case.
Will people still pirate it at that price? Heck yes. But it'll give them the potential to shift the ratio from 10:1, which is pretty much all they can ever really expect any way. Since there is a market for easily transportable digital copies, they might as well get into it and make some money off it rather than just write it off.
So, if I go out and buy this book, (not going to happen, I sold all three core 4th ed books within two months. . .), rip out the pages and go make myself a digital copy on my scanned at work, is this illegal?
You can scan your own book for your own usage.
But you cannot sell the scan or distribute it in any way.|
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I have a question, because I know almost nothing about pirating books. I'm not even sure if this will make sense. So if I buy a real copy of PHB 4th Ed 2 and I also download an "illegal copy", is that against the law? Does actually owning a book make a pdf verion legal for you?I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.Vagrant, Beckett ask if it's ok if he buy a book legally and later download a pirate version.
Not if he scans himself his own book.
I don't think it's legal anywhere on this planet to download something illegally, even if you own a legal version of the original.
Ahh ya, sorry about that, misread the question.
I'm not sure how it applies to PDFs but peer to peer of music is legal in Canada, for the time being
CNET Article
I think the point is either way, we're all quick to be egocentric about how and where things may or may not be legal, so no matter what - check your jurisdiction. You might be surprised at what you can and cannot do.
I have a question, because I know almost nothing about pirating books. I'm not even sure if this will make sense. So if I buy a real copy of PHB 4th Ed 2 and I also download an "illegal copy", is that against the law? Does actually owning a book make a pdf verion legal for you?
Technically, yes that would be illegal, and owning the book doesn't make a PDF version legal for you.
Most copyright notices (at least the ones I have read) make a statement similar to "any unauthorized reproduction is prohibited by law." And if you look at the character sheets in the 3.5 PHB you will see a note at the bottom of it authorizing the owner to copy it (and only it) "for personal use only."
Of course, as Scott Betts pointed out before, there are case rulings that support backing up your legally owned material. So, the reality is vague as to if that counts as a backup - or an illegally acquired copy of a product that (at least was) for sale.
I think WotC and many others have priced themselves out of the market with the high pdf prices. To many promises of digital versions of the book when you buy a physical book have been unfulfilled.
Yeah, now that you mention it: They did promis electronic versions of 4e books, for "a nominal price" for those who had the print version. What became of that promise?
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One last question, if I may, (before I go all the way back to page 14. . .). So I've bought this book, scanned it at work, and I don't sell or give it away. (I have not actually done this I am just wondering how it works). Than the next guy comes in and logs on and sees this file and "hey thats cool" and copies it, or rips it , or whatever it is you do.
Am I now somehow responsible for this?
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Yeah, now that you mention it: They did promis electronic versions of 4e books, for "a nominal price" for those who had the print version. What became of that promise?
I think WotC and many others have priced themselves out of the market with the high pdf prices. To many promises of digital versions of the book when you buy a physical book have been unfulfilled.
I believe the quote was "for the price of a cup of coffee".
McDonalds or Starbucks price is up for debate, but it would have been cheap regardless.
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I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.
Apologies. I live in North America.
I hope I don't sound like a troll, but the geography teacher in me feels compelled to point out that Canada is in North America. He's also feeling compelled to escape, but so far I've managed to keep him down. ;p
At least the whole debacle has made me realize that ENWorld is no place for me as a non-4E fan anymore. Too many 4E-fanboys who defend WotC no matter what they do, and would only be too happy if any other D&D game died, and far too few useful talk about roleplaying that's not tied to 4E. So, after 9 years, it's curtains for me there.
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I also remember this "about the price of a cup of coffee", though I think it might be better to say anywhere between McDonalds and a Starbucks in Hollywood.
If you really, really really, really cared about the survival of roleplaying games, you would've tried to nail him down, then kissed his feet.
You're probably a pirate. I can tell.|
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Price of a cup of coffee could be anywhere between a quarter and $250,000,000 if you really think about it.
Don't try to blame them for their ambiguosity; you're the one with the problem.
Back in my day the only good coffee was the consistancy of road tar and kept you awake for three weeks at a time. There was none of this half caf, whipped cream, double soy, latte frapachino express crap. Ah the good old days of military coffee.
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Back in my day the only good coffee was the consistancy of road tar and kept you awake for three weeks at a time. There was none of this half caf, whipped cream, double soy, latte frapachino express crap. Ah the good old days of military coffee.Price of a cup of coffee could be anywhere between a quarter and $250,000,000 if you really think about it.
Don't try to blame them for their ambiguosity; you're the one with the problem.
Yeah, and you needed it back then to stay up late and carve your woodblocks to print cheap knockoff 1e PHB's with, you damn pirate.
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I think when 4e was new, some folks decided to give it a chance. I wonder if now that the community has seen the uninspiring aberration they're selling under the d&d name, and the game is tanking, perhaps this is a massive ruse to distract everyone from the question whether anyone really needs a player handbook II anyhow?
Maybe it is a way to claim that sales are low due to piracy, rather than admit that many folks realize its just a crappy game? Kind of like saying, "Hey! Someone robbed me of all my snake oil!" I could see a company making a big deal about a spurious cause for low sales.
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I think when 4e was new, some folks decided to give it a chance. I wonder if now that the community has seen the uninspiring aberration they're selling under the d&d name, and the game is tanking, perhaps this is a massive ruse to distract everyone from the question whether anyone really needs a player handbook II anyhow?
Maybe it is a way to claim that sales are low due to piracy, rather than admit that many folks realize its just a crappy game? Kind of like saying, "Hey! Someone robbed me of all my snake oil!" I could see a company making a big deal about a spurious cause for low sales.
I had a bit of a similar thought - wondering how many of the "excessive" downloads of PHB2 were really just people trying to find an effective way to preview the material.
Particularly if they are among the on the fence crew deciding whether or not PHB2 is going to be a catalyst for their further investment in the 4E system.
You're probably a pirate. I can tell.I have it on good authority most of us are. :)
I would have to disagree here.
I am more about ninjas. Pirates ? Meh.
Heathy is a pirate.
1. "Guilty dog barks first."
2. He got drunk and bragged to us smurfs.
3. He tried to defend pirates.
4. Aaaarrrrr!
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I have a question, because I know almost nothing about pirating books. I'm not even sure if this will make sense. So if I buy a real copy of PHB 4th Ed 2 and I also download an "illegal copy", is that against the law? Does actually owning a book make a pdf verion legal for you?I think it depends on where you live.
Up here in Canada, technically, that's legal as long as you have the original in your possession and destroy your "copy" if you ever decide to get rid of the original.
It's a hold over from some old legalese involving casette tapes, and will likely change in the future.Vagrant, Beckett ask if it's ok if he buy a book legally and later download a pirate version.
Not if he scans himself his own book.
I don't think it's legal anywhere on this planet to download something illegally, even if you own a legal version of the original.
Ahh ya, sorry about that, misread the question.
I'm not sure how it applies to PDFs but peer to peer of music is legal in Canada, for the time being
CNET ArticleI think the point is either way, we're all quick to be egocentric about how and where things may or may not be legal, so no matter what - check your jurisdiction. You might be surprised at what you can and cannot do.
Of course in Canada we pay a fee when we purchase blank media, which goes to our version of the RIAA to make up for the ability download stuff.
I think when 4e was new, some folks decided to give it a chance. I wonder if now that the community has seen the uninspiring aberration they're selling under the d&d name, and the game is tanking, perhaps this is a massive ruse to distract everyone from the question whether anyone really needs a player handbook II anyhow?
The game is doing anything but tanking. I know that you wish it were tanking, Pax Veritas, but wishful thinking doesn't necessarily coincide with reality.
Enjoy your game.
I think when 4e was new, some folks decided to give it a chance. I wonder if now that the community has seen the uninspiring aberration they're selling under the d&d name, and the game is tanking, perhaps this is a massive ruse to distract everyone from the question whether anyone really needs a player handbook II anyhow?
Maybe it is a way to claim that sales are low due to piracy, rather than admit that many folks realize its just a crappy game? Kind of like saying, "Hey! Someone robbed me of all my snake oil!" I could see a company making a big deal about a spurious cause for low sales.
I had a bit of a similar thought - wondering how many of the "excessive" downloads of PHB2 were really just people trying to find an effective way to preview the material.
Particularly if they are among the on the fence crew deciding whether or not PHB2 is going to be a catalyst for their further investment in the 4E system.
Given what we know of the PHB2's success to date, I think this theory is bunk. It's more likely that WotC realized how popular the PHB2 was rather quickly, and started scrambling to remove an outlet people could use to get at the product without having to buy it.
That still does not explain why they shut down OOP PDFs as well - without providing an alternative. And just how they blundered the PR aspect of their move is mind-boggling.
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Given what we know of the PHB2's success to date, I think this theory is bunk. It's more likely that WotC realized how popular the PHB2 was rather quickly, and started scrambling to remove an outlet people could use to get at the product without having to buy it.
Ya, because 4E is universally loved by everyone whose looked at it? ugh.
I must have made up the few dozen bloggers, forums, podcasts, successful companies like Troll Lords and products like Pathfinder that appeal to people who just haven't noticed how great 4E is.
All we know about the success of PHB2 is what WotC has told us, and since they don't publish print run numbers, then everything they say is anecdotal at best. Plenty of companies run out of first, second, third and even fourth printings, but without knowing how "big" the printing was, there's not much to be impressed about.
Ya, because 4E is universally loved by everyone whose looked at it? ugh.
I must have made up the few dozen bloggers, forums, podcasts, successful companies like Troll Lords and products like Pathfinder that appeal to people who just haven't noticed how great 4E is.
I didn't say, nor imply anything like that. Calm down.
All we know about the success of PHB2 is what WotC has told us, and since they don't publish print run numbers, then everything they say is anecdotal at best. Plenty of companies run out of first, second, third and even fourth printings, but without knowing how "big" the printing was, there's not much to be impressed about.
You're right. Going through a print run in itself is nothing to be terribly impressed about if we assume that we're being lied to by WotC. We also know that the PHB2 placed quite high on bestseller lists upon release.
But none of this is the point. The origin of this discussion was based on Pax Veritas' rather dubious claim that D&D is tanking. If you're going to take exception to someone's claim, I suggest it be the one that has no support as opposed to the one that has questionable support.
The interview with the Mr. Leeds has not been particularly illuminating, but I want to give the man some credit for at least saying something/anything and some new things can be gleaned from it. Perhaps most importantly, the interview contains an admission that piracy was not the only thing responsible for pulling the PDFs - it was also a strategic business decision.
Here is the relevant quote:
Question:
1. Please tell us the reasons for the new policy on PDF sales. Is this a strategic business decision, a response to piracy, or a combination of the two?
Answer:
The decision was made for both reasons.
He then goes on to talk about piracy thus deflecting attention and ENWorld doesn't pursue the matter of the other reasons...
This shows that the piracy argument for pulling PDFs was bogus to begin with even in the eyes of WotC. Taking what Mr. Leeds is saying at face value (I am not sure I can do that with WotC any more after their numerous blunders over the past two years or so, though I have done so before), I am willing to interpret it thusly: The part of the policy of not offering new products as PDFs could indeed be part of their anti-piracy fight. The part of their policy that pulled existing PDFs - well, that has nothing to do with fighting piracy and is motivated by other aims. Now the question is what are these other strategic business reasons.
Anyway, to reiterate, as far as I am concerned, this is a clear admission that the initial 'piracy-is-the-reason' statements were misleading (through omission - piracy could be responsible for not offering new PDF products, but not for pulling old ones) and there are clearly other reasons behind the decision. This is what most of us have long pretty much known anyway, because to think that pulling existing PDFs that have already been 'released' by the pirates off the market will decrease piracy of those products is not just stupid, it is terminally stupid... and Wizards of the Coast, although it might miscalculate reactions of fans, is not actually stupid.
With that out of the way, what could be the real reasons for WotC's decision to pull existing, already pirated PDFs off the market? I have provided a sampling of what some of those possible 'other reasons' might be on other threads. Here is a brief summary of some possibilities:
1) Bringing electronic sales in-house and thus getting the full cut of the profits. The initial 'blame it entirely on piracy' statements and doing it at the time of the lawsuits may have been an attempt to deflect potential rage of customers at the cutting out existing distributors (if so, than WotC has clearly miscalculated, but that is in retrospect) by blaming the decision on piracy. WotC has now stated that it will not sell any PDFs in the future, but that does not matter, since it may sell other formats (perhaps some e-book formats) and leaving legitimate PDFs on the market and selling them through other distributors would compete with that.
2) Switching to a service-based model of distribution of these products. A subscription-based model that would allow access to a library of electronic materials online would provide WotC with a constant revenue stream. This could be part of the DDI or a separate product and it could enable the purchase of access to a single product or a section of the library (which could be organized by types of books, by campaign worlds, by editions and so on - so somebody might subscribe for access to all Forgotten Realms products, for example) or even the entire library, so long as the customer pays his subscription and is connected to the net.
3) Eliminating the competition with older editions with 4E by removing PDFs of out of print products. Blaming it on piracy and the removal of 4E PDFs could have been to mitigate customer anger and clouding the issue - after all PDFs are not an important revenue stream, so it might have been perceived as worthwhile to sacrifice 4E PDFs to avoid the charge of crushing the competition of older editions being leveled (if so, it was an obvious miscalculation, but again this is in hindsight).
4) Scaring the GSL companies off the market by showing that WotC has no qualms about terminating contracts abruptly and capriciously, so they cannot rely on WotC's goodwill and reasonableness not to do so to the GSL. If WotC succeeds, it will have achieved a fully closed 4E, but without having to actually pull the GSL directly (or not release it at all), which is an action that would probably generate great consumer outrage (I would guess vastly more than the PDF issue).
There might be other potential reasons too, but these four immediately come to mind. Also, a combination of some or all four of these could play a role.
Personally, I think that reasons 1 or 2 are the most likely to be responsible for the decision to pull the existing PDF products off the market. It could even be that WotC will offer both alternatives - some more secure format downloads or the possibility to purchase online access to a book or a library of books, perhaps through a subscription. Flash or something like that could be used for the online books. Indeed, I think some customers might very well find some of these possibilities quite attractive and valuable, if for example a subscription to an online library of products was competitively priced. WotC would, in turn, gain a steady revenue stream even from customers who are not part of 4E and if this was a part of a DDI subscription, some of those might even be converted to 4E after they see all the online tools available for it.
I find reason 3 to be plausible too, perhaps in combination with reason 1 or 2 or both, but not as likely. Still, WotC could be killing legal avenues of obtaining older edition products (4E is after all still available in print). After all, saying that older edition products will be available in the future in the other format gives a lot of leevay as to when they will be available and the delays can be indefinite (this is not unknown among WotC's digital initiatives).
Reason 4 is the least likely, I think, but given the GSL fiasco, I did feel the need to include it as a possibility, especially in light of the fact that regardless of WotC's intent, WotC has indeed shown the GSL companies that any notion that they can rely on WotCs goodwill or reasonableness not to abruptly and capriciously pull a contract is actually false.
Thoughts, comments, what do you think?
Note 1: For not making PDFs of their new products, I accept their rationale of fighting piracy, as that might indeed make piracy more difficult.
Note 2: For me personally I will certainly not be buying any subscriptions - in fact that would be the quickest way of them permanently losing me as their customer for their electronic products, no matter how great a product they create, no matter how good 5E might be. I want to own the products I pay for and not lose them when I cease to subscribe to something. Mind you, they wouldn't automatically lose me as a customer altogether - if they produced products I still wanted to buy in print format (say an excellent 5E), I would still buy them, but I wouldn't touch their electronic offerings.
1) They didn't just stop sales on no notice, they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for. There's a big difference between that and an immediate halt to new sales, with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 days) for customers to download material they had already bought.If they already got a download, then they already got the content they paid for. I don't know why we have to keep running around this bush again. If a customer doesn't back up their own material then they are ignorant or naive. At least two different pdf sellers, one of which is Paizo, have said that there was never any kind of guarantee that anyone was going to get more than one download.
A lot (perhaps most) online content sellers of non-gaming material only give you one download total. People lost a bonus and they act like they are being punished.
So the people who had just bought content in the last couple days and (for whatever reason) hadn't downloaded it yet are just SOL? Maybe they don't get on the Internet every day (or several times a day) to check their e-mail? What about customers in Europe, who didn't find out about the deadline until right before, or even after, it had passed (due to the time zone difference)?
Stop trying to shift the issue from the extremely short time frame that WotC required distributors to meet by trying to make it into "whining crybabies" complaining about a loss of convenience.
At least the whole debacle has made me realize that ENWorld is no place for me as a non-4E fan anymore. Too many 4E-fanboys who defend WotC no matter what they do, and would only be too happy if any other D&D game died, and far too few useful talk about roleplaying that's not tied to 4E. So, after 9 years, it's curtains for me there.
The same way the Wizards boards became, chasing me away.
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Ya, because 4E is universally loved by everyone whose looked at it? ugh.
I must have made up the few dozen bloggers, forums, podcasts, successful companies like Troll Lords and products like Pathfinder that appeal to people who just haven't noticed how great 4E is.
I didn't say, nor imply anything like that. Calm down.
All we know about the success of PHB2 is what WotC has told us, and since they don't publish print run numbers, then everything they say is anecdotal at best. Plenty of companies run out of first, second, third and even fourth printings, but without knowing how "big" the printing was, there's not much to be impressed about.You're right. Going through a print run in itself is nothing to be terribly impressed about if we assume that we're being lied to by WotC. We also know that the PHB2 placed quite high on bestseller lists upon release.
But none of this is the point. The origin of this discussion was based on Pax Veritas' rather dubious claim that D&D is tanking. If you're going to take exception to someone's claim, I suggest it be the one that has no support as opposed to the one that has questionable support.
What I take exception to is that the fact that we are all theorizing - yourself included, unless you are somehow intimately connected to WotC - and every theory that someone presents is automatically invalidated by yourself, unless that theory somehow presents WotC in a positive light.
No one has any support, including yourself, and if you do - I would challenge you to present your sources of fact, as so many others have asked you to previously.
To come and claim that your support is somehow any more valid or your interpretation of those facts we do have is somehow "more right" is both irritating, and insulting to the intelligence of other posters.
PHB2 was high on the best seller lists, and now its in the sub 300's. I could just as easily say that the whole book blew it's load on entry and has nothing left, and my theory would be just as valid as yours without either of us having some kind of data point to validate against.
As another example the Wii is currently the number one selling console, but recent surveys have showed that it's also the lowest played console on the market, and its attach rate of games is something like 1 game to 1 console, whereas the 360 is something like 8 games to 1 console. Just because something sells well, doesn't mean it's a success.
Pax has no more support for his theory that 4E is bombing as you do that it's succeeding, other than theoretical debates about the hints that WotC gives us ... and as for why should we choose to believe that WotC would lie to us? Because as Dr. Phil says, "past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior."
Ya, because 4E is universally loved by everyone whose looked at it? ugh.
I must have made up the few dozen bloggers, forums, podcasts, successful companies like Troll Lords and products like Pathfinder that appeal to people who just haven't noticed how great 4E is.
I didn't say, nor imply anything like that. Calm down.
All we know about the success of PHB2 is what WotC has told us, and since they don't publish print run numbers, then everything they say is anecdotal at best. Plenty of companies run out of first, second, third and even fourth printings, but without knowing how "big" the printing was, there's not much to be impressed about.You're right. Going through a print run in itself is nothing to be terribly impressed about if we assume that we're being lied to by WotC. We also know that the PHB2 placed quite high on bestseller lists upon release.
But none of this is the point. The origin of this discussion was based on Pax Veritas' rather dubious claim that D&D is tanking. If you're going to take exception to someone's claim, I suggest it be the one that has no support as opposed to the one that has questionable support.
What I take exception to is that the fact that we are all theorizing - yourself included, unless you are somehow intimately connected to WotC - and every theory that someone presents is automatically invalidated by yourself, unless that theory somehow presents WotC in a positive light.
No one has any support, including yourself, and if you do - I would challenge you to present your sources of fact, as so many others have asked you to previously.
To come and claim that your support is somehow any more valid or your interpretation of those facts we do have is somehow "more right" is both irritating, and insulting to the intelligence of other posters.
PHB2 was high on the best seller lists, and now its in the sub 300's. I could just as easily say that...
I'm going to bow out of this particular line of discussion. There is a clear hostility in this thread, and it only works in one direction. When radicalized posts like Pax's go without address while civil posts are diminished because of their take on the topic, there can be no honest discussion. You should absolutely call me on it when I make a claim that lacks support. You should also absolutely call others on it when they do the same. That is not occurring, and it's a sign that the other participants in this thread are not interested in an intellectually honest discussion, but rather in perpetuating a particular echo chamber environment.
It's fitting that a couple of you are mentioning how you've been driven out of the WotC and ENWorld forums. The general attitude here is becoming increasingly insular. There are some level-headed individuals who post here to engage in discussion, but that is becoming less the norm.
I'm going to bow out of this particular line of discussion. There is a clear hostility in this thread, and it only works in one direction. When radicalized posts like Pax's go without address while civil posts are diminished because of their take on the topic, there can be no honest discussion. You should absolutely call me on it when I make a claim that lacks support. You should also absolutely call others on it when they do the same. That is not occurring, and it's a sign that the other participants in this thread are not interested in an intellectually honest discussion, but rather in perpetuating a particular echo chamber environment.It's fitting that a couple of you are mentioning how you've been driven out of the WotC and ENWorld forums. The general attitude here is becoming increasingly insular. There are some level-headed individuals who post here to engage in discussion, but that is becoming less the norm.
Dude, welcome to my life 6 months ago...
Logic rarely wins (or even counts for much) on messageboards. In fact, in any unmoderated forum, Internet or otherwise, you can expect the side with the bigger numbers to win. Dissent is just drowned out. And I believe the environment here is generally one-sided. That seat you're in? I used to sit in it. I can tell you that, if you're looking for a fair shake for WotC and 4E, you aren't going to find it here. That realization drove me away for a long while.
You know what? I don't care any more. For my part, I'm so disguisted by WotC's actions I can't bring myself to see them in anything but the most negative possible light. I've tried to see things from their side, and time and time again they've shown themselves to be undeserving of anything but contempt. They long since burned through any good will they enjoyed. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. And THAT realization brought me back. The realization that, while it isn't "fair" to 4E here, I DON'T CARE. WotC doesn't deserve fair. WotC deserve to die, and may someone else (hopefully Paizo) get D&D before they drag it down with them. I can't speak for others, but I get the impression that I am not the only one who feels this way.
And in case you're wondering, I get that I'm no longer capable of being objective. :)
P.S. Your Rise of the Runelords conversion blog is freaking amazing. You should consider trying to get into game design; I think you have a talent for it.
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Scott, my intent wasn't to drive you from the debate.
I just think its disingenious to have it continually suggested that those who are con to WotC's decisions are ruled by vitriolic rage and anger and can't seem to see the truth, and that those who are pro WotC's decisions are ruled by logical discourse and have it all figured out.
I admit that this is an emotional debate, but when you see everyone from luminaries like Rob Conley and Monte Cook, to nearly all the bloggers on RPGBloggers.net, to retailers, to mainstream media covering this snafu - I think it's reasonable to assume that what they've done was not for the greater good, regardless of what the PR presentation has been.
Whether we see it now or not, I think this incident is going to be as relevant to the RPG community as the 4E release itself was... and we all know how heated that was.
Anyhow, I apologize if my tone came across as harsh. I said what I said, and I don't hold a grudge, so hopefully you'll find that good enough reason to keep fighting the good fight.
P.S. Your Rise of the Runelords conversion blog is freakin amazing. You should consider trying to get into game design; I think you have a talent for it.
Thanks, but I'm not sure that's where my calling lies. This is a hobby I'm passionate about, but for right now that's where it stands.
The charge of being 'driven away' from other sites is grandstanding. The flame wars just pushed me to look for a pleasureable gaming forum. I found it here, and am glad I did. I suspect my experience echoes others.
Sad though, since I'm not really as much anti-4E as I am pro-3.5 (fixed) and PF.
So I guess I should thank them (WoTC) for allowing widespread hostility and marginalization. Meh. No.