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From reading the public legal filings, it is precisely BECAUSE of the legally obtained PDFs that they caught some people pirating them. The PDFs at DriveThru RPG have a visible watermark - similar to how Paizo does it - and apparently they also have a micro-watermark (that's what WotC called it) which identifies which account was used to purchase that particular PDF. Because the visible watermark was removed, but the micro-watermark wasn't, they were able to determine who the original purchaser was (and I guess they found three different ones flying around as they filed three separate complaints - one against some folks in Poland, one against some folks in the US, and one against an American and a Phillipines resident who didn't even remove the visible watermark....). Without the PDF watermarking the book would still have been "pirated" as many have said - it just would have lagged a couple of days while someone scanned it. Then it would be totally untraceable. Having OEF PDFs in this case actually made figuring out who the pirates are possible.It took about 15 seconds of web surfing; they're all still out there, and I don't even know "where to look" I just know "how to run a Google search".
_If_ this was an attempt to actively attempt to stop piracy, it's not going to work. People who pirate will get the material regardless of what companies attempt to do over their DRM. Frankly, that's been the problem with DRM all along. First there was Napster, then KaZaa, now BitTorrent, next year it'll be something brand new. All it takes is one person with the free time and drive to pirate something and it's out and about. Frankly, there is little stop djinn, it's already out of the bottle and it's not going back any time soon.
Well, that adds a little weight to their argument. But only a little. I still, for one, think throwing the baby out with the bathwater to be a bit misguided a decision....
Nah, they shipped the drives to that volcano and tossed them in along with Kobold Cleaver*
Thus was WotC pleased by their sacrifice.
*** spoiler omitted **
NICE!!!
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While I can't talk about the specifics of the contract, I can tell you that their files no longer exist on our servers. If Wizards were to change their minds, bringing things back up exactly as they were would be a lot harder than taking them down was.
That's fine Vic; I mean, you guys have a record of everything I've bought. So even if PDFs were reloaded with new watermarks or whatever, I would expect that you'd be able to figure out how to link my older purchases with the newer updates or some such (honestly, you know your system and I don't).
Regardless of the details, I know Paizo (being the customer-oriented company that it is) would find some way to make sure those of us that already bought the PDFs were taken care of and that it would be fair.
No worries. Now I'm off to build histograms and sell engineers to my customer.
-Skeld
While I can't talk about the specifics of the contract, I can tell you that their files no longer exist on our servers. If Wizards were to change their minds, bringing things back up exactly as they were would be a lot harder than taking them down was.That's fine Vic; I mean, you guys have a record of everything I've bought. So even if PDFs were reloaded with new watermarks or whatever, I would expect that you'd be able to figure out how to link my older purchases with the newer updates or some such (honestly, you know your system and I don't).
Regardless of the details, I know Paizo (being the customer-oriented company that it is) would find some way to make sure those of us that already bought the PDFs were taken care of and that it would be fair.
No worries. Now I'm off to build histograms and sell engineers to my customer.
-Skeld
Skeld, my friend, I might be reading too much into Vic Wertz post... But it seems to me he wasn't talking about the technical problems - but the fact that WotC would have to provide Paizo with additional copies of the PDFs. Possibly preparing us for the upcoming "blunder."
But I am a cynical, jaded, S.O.B., so do take that with a grain of salt.
Skeld, my friend, I might be reading too much into Vic Wertz post... But it seems to me he wasn't talking about the technical problems - but the fact that WotC would have to provide Paizo with additional copies of the PDFs. Possibly preparing us for the upcoming "blunder."
But I am a cynical, jaded, S.O.B., so do take that with a grain of salt.
No, I'm the cynical one, I assumed it was more like when a company makes a new version and the old one gets dumped. In other words even if they came back, people who had previously purchased them would be SoL.
Anyway, getting to several comments by people on the last page. Evidently there never was any real assumption of people being able to access the files past that first download. Thus what are people really getting angry about?
1. No longer can download a product you paid for and already downloaded once? Sorry, them's the breaks kid, as Lisa and others have stated, you never had a guarantee to get it more than once, be glad for the time you had to spend together.
2. Can't spend more money on WotC products? Think about that for a second, is that really something to be upset about?
3. Can't get access to OPP material? There are still a few (perhaps less desirable) legal avenues you have (eBay, etc), but in the end, before there was the whole pdf thing, did anyone really expect to get access to OPP material? Again be glad for the chance you had in the first place, for alot of people, their interests never even had that option.
Let's focus the attention of this thread (and indeed the entire community) on _issues_ and not on the personalities of posters.
**I'm** Spartacus !
(and so's my wife..)
Speak of the devil, and he will appear.
Welcome to the boards, Titanium Dragon!
P.S. - Please play nice and enjoy your stay here!
2. Can't spend more money on WotC products? Think about that for a second, is that really something to be upset about?
Yes. If I was nostalgic and wanted to run Isle of Dread again... well, now my options are limited as to where to get it.
Chief Technical Officer
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No, I'm the cynical one, I assumed it was more like when a company makes a new version and the old one gets dumped. In other words even if they came back, people who had previously purchased them would be SoL.
First of all, I want to clarify that when a company updates an existing PDF product, customers who bought the old version automatically get access to the new version (and only the new version).
Companies who introduce a major revision as a new and separate product, though, sometimes ask the old product no longer be sold, but customers who bought that older edition can generally still download it.
And I'm also *not* saying that if Wizards PDFs came back, customers would be SOL—I'm just saying it would not be easy for us to put everything back in place. Difficult and probably frustrating for me especially, but not impossible.
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And, in case it matters to those Marvel fans out there, it also includes the website that had all the oop Marvel Super Hero game pdfs available for free with permission from WOTC [http://www.classicmarvel.com./] It's gone.
Perfectly within their rights, of course. Just sucky, as with the rest.
And Ema's character sheets, gone. See above- within their rights but sucky.
It reminds me of KODT's Hard Eight parody of TSR.
And yay! Lawsuits!
Nostalgia.
Been on vacation, so I didn't see this until just now. Words fail me.
"This. Bites."
- Booster Gold
Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thank you for this post. :)
I cna think of a specific scenario where this would all make both good business sense and I would forgive WotC for the way they handled it, because if the scenario I'm thinking of plays out there is no other way they could have played this.
I'm not going into specifics but I urge everybody to keep in mind, the first three books were released into the wild, not by any purchaser of product, but by somebody in the chain of possession who had access to the master print files.
Keep in mind, too, the cases we know about indicate that a separate watermark other than the visible watermark was used by WotC to identify at least some of the culprits.
Now put one and one together.
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I cna think of a specific scenario where this would all make both good business sense and I would forgive WotC for the way they handled it, because if the scenario I'm thinking of plays out there is no other way they could have played this.
I'm not going into specifics but I urge everybody to keep in mind, the first three books were released into the wild, not by any purchaser of product, but by somebody in the chain of possession who had access to the master print files.
Keep in mind, too, the cases we know about indicate that a separate watermark other than the visible watermark was used by WotC to identify at least some of the culprits.
Now put one and one together.
I am trying to... but I just don't get how you are putting these 2 incidents together... they are not even related.. One was a Copy that got out before release by nefarious means.. the other was put out in the wild after it was bought.. and those person left their identities on them... they have nothing to do with each other.
I cna think of a specific scenario where this would all make both good business sense and I would forgive WotC for the way they handled it, because if the scenario I'm thinking of plays out there is no other way they could have played this.
I'm not going into specifics but I urge everybody to keep in mind, the first three books were released into the wild, not by any purchaser of product, but by somebody in the chain of possession who had access to the master print files.
Keep in mind, too, the cases we know about indicate that a separate watermark other than the visible watermark was used by WotC to identify at least some of the culprits.
Now put one and one together.
I have.
And I come up with that nothing they do now will stop the pirated copies already out there. The only thing they can do is prevent/track future product PDFs.
So...
Pulling all current PDFs does nothing but piss off customers.
P.S.: How did WotC find out who uploaded their PDFs? They had to download illegal copies... Does that make WotC self-pirates? :-P
No, I'm the cynical one, I assumed it was more like when a company makes a new version and the old one gets dumped. In other words even if they came back, people who had previously purchased them would be SoL.First of all, I want to clarify that when a company updates an existing PDF product, customers who bought the old version automatically get access to the new version (and only the new version).
Companies who introduce a major revision as a new and separate product, though, sometimes ask the old product no longer be sold, but customers who bought that older edition can generally still download it.
And I'm also *not* saying that if Wizards PDFs came back, customers would be SOL—I'm just saying it would not be easy for us to put everything back in place. Difficult and probably frustrating for me especially, but not impossible.
Ah, sorry, misunderstood what you meant by they wouldn't have access to the old version. I thought that meant if you had bought the old version it was gone and you got nothing. Now I see you mean the old version is gone and you get the new version, even if you prefered the old version. Thanks for the clarification.
I am trying to... but I just don't get how you are putting these 2 incidents together... they are not even related.. One was a Copy that got out before release by nefarious means.. the other was put out in the wild after it was bought.. and those person left their identities on them... they have nothing to do with each other.I cna think of a specific scenario where this would all make both good business sense and I would forgive WotC for the way they handled it, because if the scenario I'm thinking of plays out there is no other way they could have played this.
I'm not going into specifics but I urge everybody to keep in mind, the first three books were released into the wild, not by any purchaser of product, but by somebody in the chain of possession who had access to the master print files.
Keep in mind, too, the cases we know about indicate that a separate watermark other than the visible watermark was used by WotC to identify at least some of the culprits.
Now put one and one together.
Think control of the chain of possession and upcoming release of Arcane Power.
Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thank you for this post. :)
Weren't those all pulped? Where did you find a copy still being sold?
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Didn't one of the posts on the previous page say that these were caught by the fact that they had downloaded it from a pdf-seller online and then attempted to erase the watermark, but didn't get a second anti-theft aspect. It was through this second aspect that they were caught. Or did I just make that up in my mind?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hello, Xyxox, and welcome to the Paizo boards. Lilith will be by shortly.
I admit, Xyxox, you're being too subtle for me, as well. We've been assuming that those two incidents --the inital release-to-pirates and the more recent piracy spreee-- have been unrelated.
If you're suggesting they're the same person, then it would be someone who (a) once had access to pre-watermarked copies, but (b) no longer does, and must resort to using copies obtained from the defendants in this most recent case, which they obtained through RPGNet.
I'm sure I'm not following.
--Chris
Weren't those all pulped? Where did you find a copy still being sold?Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thank you for this post. :)
Well, I have a copy at my house and one of my LFGS's has a copy in stock. However, that is just local. I have no idea what the big stores are doing.
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Xyxox, so, riddle me this: Are they going to watermark every page of arcane power so you cannot scan it?
NOTHING WotC does is going to keep their product off the torrents. All they are going to do is:
a) Piss off their legitimate PDF customers (which I think has, by and large, been the case here).
b) Cause some people who normally would buy a PDF legitimately look into the torrents for OOP materials.
C) Just make the pirates physically scan the books and put them on the torrents.
So, net effect of their action? Lose free money, and maybe lose a few customers for new stuff. Period.
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Weren't those all pulped? Where did you find a copy still being sold?Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Thank you for this post. :)
Only copies still in the hands of the publishers had to be pulped. Stores who bought them as stock didn't have to return them, they're already bought.
Both FLGSs I frequent still have "D20" labeled books on the shelves.
Hello, Xyxox, and welcome to the Paizo boards. Lilith will be by shortly.
I admit, Xyxox, you're being too subtle for me, as well. We've been assuming that those two incidents --the inital release-to-pirates and the more recent piracy spreee-- have been unrelated.
If you're suggesting they're the same person, then it would be someone who (a) once had access to pre-watermarked copies, but (b) no longer does, and must resort to using copies obtained from the defendants in this most recent case, which they obtained through RPGNet.
I'm sure I'm not following.
--Chris
Yeah, I just hate to put out my entire theory in case I'm right, but I am not suggesting the two incidents are actually related in the sense that the culprits in the two cases are different people, the actual cases being brought in civil court being customers of PDFs and the original three books being released into the wild electronically before the physical release being somebody within the chain of possession.
I will say this. WotC controls the chain of possession for the master files and how those files are obtained by internal employees and third parties. WotC also has indicated they have a virtually undetectable method of identifying somebody who purchased a watermarked PDF when they put a PDF into the wild.
It is also very safe to say that the only way Arcane Power will be placed in the wild will be via one of two methods:
1) Somebody cracks the spine, scans and OCRs the pages, then places the resutl in the wild. This will take a while and certainly won't happen day 1 with any new book.
2) Somebody within the chain of possession of the master files places a copy of what they have access to in the wild. This can happen even before the physical books are released.
Not much can be done about 1).
2)?
2)?
And as I said, pulling all current PDFs does nothing for this.
Hey there Xyxox, welcome to the boards! *offers warm virtual chocolate chip cookies to the newcomer*
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And, in case it matters to those Marvel fans out there, it also includes the website that had all the oop Marvel Super Hero game pdfs available for free with permission from WOTC [http://www.classicmarvel.com./] It's gone.
Perfectly within their rights, of course. Just sucky, as with the rest.
And Ema's character sheets, gone. See above- within their rights but sucky.
It reminds me of KODT's Hard Eight parody of TSR.
And yay! Lawsuits!
Nostalgia.
Blood and Martyrs. I didn't even think about that (or dl copies when I found the site) I bet the Starfrontiers stuff is gone too.
At least I got those.
Blood and Martyrs. I didn't even think about that (or dl copies when I found the site) I bet the Starfrontiers stuff is gone too.
At least I got those.
I guess offering to send you copies I got from that site is technically illegal now, huh?
(I only got the two basic and advanced rulebooks. Thought I'd get the others later.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Blood and Martyrs. I didn't even think about that (or dl copies when I found the site) I bet the Starfrontiers stuff is gone too.
At least I got those.
I guess offering to send you copies I got from that site is technically illegal now, huh?
(I only got the two basic and advanced rulebooks. Thought I'd get the others later.)
Yeah *sigh* Meant to get the char gen, and the Ultimate powers book had all the errata. Big problem is the univeral tables on the back of my dead trees have faded and are hard to read.
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Weren't those all pulped? Where did you find a copy still being sold?
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One of the local Barnes and Nobles and a Borders I know for sure both still have at least one copy left each on the shelves. So they are still around and they was never pulled from any store that I am aware of.
Speaking of the BoEF that is.
Actually Scott, those people who are actively pirating aren't complaining,
Yes, they are.
because they are still getting the stuff they want.
This has nothing to do with it. It's not that the pirates actually feel injured by this (though a notable few are). It's that they just enjoy railing against WotC for a decision that they consider dumb on intellectual grounds. Remember, my entire point is that a lot of the people complaining about this decision aren't affected by it.
On a notable tangent, however, one of the most involved pirates spent quite a while posting (and complaining about this decision) in the thread over on WotC's boards (for whatever reason, he decided to use the same moniker on WotC's boards and ENWorld as he does elsewhere). I suspected that he himself might be a defendant named in the piracy cases, and yesterday it was made clear that he was. He represents the top of the chain, however, not your average end-user pirate.
Several people earlier in the thread commented that if you know where to look, and I assume most pirates do, the stuff is still there.
How much longer that remains true is up in the air. As I mentioned above, the defendant in question was a significant contributor to a noteworthy hub of RPG pirating activity.
It's just like making laws, they only alter the behavior of those who are already law abiding.
This is patently false, and is something I can disagree with on academic grounds. My area of study includes looking at the effects of lawmaking on criminal behavior. Some laws do cause changes in criminal behavior. Some laws don't cause any such changes. But there is no absolute in this sense.
For instance, I can guarantee you that if digital piracy laws were updated to include stricter, more certain punishment that we would see a largely proportional drop-off in digital pirate activity.
The only people hurt by WoTC pulling legal files from everyone are those of us who get them legally. To say that pirates are complaining is a specious argument at best.
Given that I've witnessed the pirates complaining, I'd say it's anything but specious.
Remember, my entire point is that a lot of the people complaining about this decision aren't affected by it.
Are you certain?
Let's ignore the fact that by your own arguments you need to back up that claim.
If some one complains about it is angered by the decision, they are affected.
If someone is happy about the decision, they are affected.
If someone finds it comical, and/or fun, to fan the flames caused by this decision, they are affected.
Or are you simply talking about financially affected? Because you certainly aren't financially affected by posters complaints/libel/rumormongering about 4e, and yet you feel justified in complaining about it. Does that make your position more important than everyone elses?
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Wait a minute here...You mean to tell me that WoTC did sumthin' to go against the wishes of its customers...*slaps hands on face Home Alone style* who woulda guessed that (sarcasm alert)
on a side note somebody mentioned the Book of Erotic Fantasy being pulped... I guess I missed that *smiles and opens his copy*
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Actually Scott, those people who are actively pirating aren't complaining,Yes, they are.
Actually, I'd say "No, they're not". When I told my friend of my outrage that I cant recover my oDnD pdfs from another site, because of what WotC has done, he simply shrugged his shoulders and told me "Can't you just download it on [p2p program]?"
I walked away, absolutely amazed at the way he said that, as if it was okay to just do what he suggested.. It's like he didn't even realize that it was wrong to do that.
Anyway, I firmly believe that the 'pirates', at least a majority of them, are not complaining.
For the fun of it I went and looked at a few pirate forums, easy to find really. They really do not care at all. I found one thread on it and it was more like well poor suckers for paying for it
So no pirates do not care about it
2)?And as I said, pulling all current PDFs does nothing for this.
Really?
The masters weren't released with PHB2.
There's been no reason to release the masters into the wild since the first three books. PDFs were released along with physical books on teh same day.
Now, the only print quality PDFs that will be in existance will be the masters.
Now, there is a compelling reason for the person who released the original masters to do so again.
I walked away, absolutely amazed at the way he said that, as if it was okay to just do what he suggested.. It's like he didn't even realize that it was wrong to do that.
I get it that you have a strong moral objection to the practice, and I am not suggesting that is a bad thing.
But I'd be careful about using the terms "right," and "wrong" in this discussion. That takes us into the gray area of enforced morals. Stick with "legal," and "illegal." It should keep the discussion moving much better.
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I walked away, absolutely amazed at the way he said that, as if it was okay to just do what he suggested.. It's like he didn't even realize that it was wrong to do that.I get it that you have a strong moral objection to the practice, and I am not suggesting that is a bad thing.
But I'd be careful about using the terms "right," and "wrong" in this discussion. That takes us into the gray area of enforced morals. Stick with "legal," and "illegal." It should keep the discussion moving much better.
Can't we rather "Kill" This discussion?
2)?And as I said, pulling all current PDFs does nothing for this.Really?
The masters weren't released with PHB2.
There's been no reason to release the masters into the wild since the first three books. PDFs were released along with physical books on teh same day.
Now, the only print quality PDFs that will be in existance will be the masters.
Now, there is a compelling reason for the person who released the original masters to do so again.
However the same result would have occurred if they just stopped selling new books. If this was the goal, it would be unnecessary to stop selling any of the existing PDFs and definitely unnecessary to bar re-downloading.
Actually Scott, those people who are actively pirating aren't complaining,Yes, they are.Actually, I'd say "No, they're not". When I told my friend of my outrage that I cant recover my oDnD pdfs from another site, because of what WotC has done, he simply shrugged his shoulders and told me "Can't you just download it on [p2p program]?"
I walked away, absolutely amazed at the way he said that, as if it was okay to just do what he suggested.. It's like he didn't even realize that it was wrong to do that.
Anyway, I firmly believe that the 'pirates', at least a majority of them, are not complaining.
I think WotC has revoked distribution of the pdfs NOT OWNERSHIP of them.
If I have bought one, then I may keep a copy of one. If I lose my copy and get another on a P2P network I don't see how I can be committing a crime. As long as I can demonstrate my ownership (such as Paizo account history) nobody can touch me.
Using a P2P network is not inherently a crime. If it was then legitimate American companies such as BitTorrent would not be distributing them.
So I neither see how your friend's suggestion is wrong, nor do I see how it is illegal (thank you for making the distinction, DE). Please help me, Jason.
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Several people earlier in the thread commented that if you know where to look, and I assume most pirates do, the stuff is still there.How much longer that remains true is up in the air. As I mentioned above, the defendant in question was a significant contributor to a noteworthy hub of RPG pirating activity.
As someone who works in technology, and in particular spend a great part of it studying Peer to Peer networks for work related purposes, I just have to say you're 100% false in believing that arresting any one of these individuals will affect the ease with which the material is obtained by those interested.
My guess is that any one of these shared files has anywhere from hundreds to thousands of peers and seeds on the torrent sites - and those are just public, I wouldn't even hazard a guess at the private.
They may have arrested the original source of the first instance of leaked material, but they'd have to arrest and confiscate hundreds or thousands of computers to remove it from the net.
The RIAA and the MPAA with the financial backing of dozens of studios and the power of the DMCA, the US and other legal jurisdictions hasn't done it ... I highly doubt WotC will.
Actually Scott, those people who are actively pirating aren't complaining,Yes, they are.
because they are still getting the stuff they want.This has nothing to do with it. It's not that the pirates actually feel injured by this (though a notable few are). It's that they just enjoy railing against WotC for a decision that they consider dumb on intellectual grounds. Remember, my entire point is that a lot of the people complaining about this decision aren't affected by it.
On a notable tangent, however, one of the most involved pirates spent quite a while posting (and complaining about this decision) in the thread over on WotC's boards (for whatever reason, he decided to use the same moniker on WotC's boards and ENWorld as he does elsewhere). I suspected that he himself might be a defendant named in the piracy cases, and yesterday it was made clear that he was. He represents the top of the chain, however, not your average end-user pirate.
Two things:
First, I'd ask you to be a bit more careful in your wording Scott. Most of your posts easily read as if you're talking about most people here on the Paizo boards being pirates. I don't think that's what you really mean. If you're only referring to people from elsewhere on the internet, please make sure you're communicating that sentiment.Second, I'd be very interested in reading the posts. The posts by the guy you say is now one of the defendants in the lawsuit and I would love if you could point me in the direction of those posts. I hope this doesn't violate Vic's caution about not talking about people on other messageboards.
Here is a link to his post on Enworld. http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254035-my-name-defendan t-radzikowski.html
And that exemplifies what I mean by right/wrong versus legal/illegal.
Chris Redzikowski is trying to make it a moral issue, and trying to trump the legal one.
Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.
I am sorry, but I have to object to this action.
You are unfairly casting a bad light on Valar Project's Book of Erotic Fantasy by associating it with WotC's D&D 4th Edition
Shame on you! :P
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Since I can't really speak with my wallet any more than I am (I haven't bought anything WotC produces since last January, and now can't even legally buy the only thing left they offer that I might have considered) I did something that was perhaps a little bit childish. I went to my local Barnes & Noble and Borders stores on my lunch break, opened up their copies of Book of Erotic Fantasy to the dildos page and left them sitting right next to the 4e material. I hope lots of parents see it and make the association WotC so feared when the book came out.I am sorry, but I have to object to this action.
You are unfairly casting a bad light on Valar Project's Book of Erotic Fantasy by associating it with WotC's D&D 4th Edition
Shame on you! :P
*L* ok sorry but that was actually kinda funny.