No consumer should have to go through this.
Go through...what, exactly? It's not like you're being exposed to something offensive. At worst, you simply had one avenue of purchasing products suspended, if you cared.
You don't think you're being more than a little over-dramatic, here?
~gives a tired sigh~ Oh well. At this point the ball is in WotC's court. There is nothing we can do to change that. I for one have done my best to be civil and try to help everyone else from going bonkers. Lets call it a day and resume this tomorrow.+1
....but I would prefer to see this resumed next month. Or maybe next year. Or maybe just forgotten about and more important things gotten on with.
Amen!
It is dishonest. Not caring how others feel about Wotc's treatment of them, but expecting us to care about how feelings of employees are affected by our venting, is hypocritical.
I care about how people feel about WotC's treatment of them. There are those who were legitimately inconvenienced by this decision, and it sucks for them.
But I also expect the gaming community to be responsible and level-headed, and so far those expectations have been set far too high. There are a lot of people who are not inconvenienced by this decision (and many more who are not inconvenienced to the degree where it would warrant a personal boycott) who have decided to make this a crusade. That sort of behavior needs to be addressed and corrected.
But that's just it - if there wasn't an outcry they would know that they screwed up if their decision didn't improve the piracy/sales situation. And, conversely, just because there's an outcry doesn't mean they did screw up if it turns out that their decision improves the piracy/sales situation.In this particular case, outcry doesn't do anything useful except make the fan base look ugly. Which is bad, because the fan base already looks pretty ugly given that piracy in it is so rampant the publishing giant of the tabletop community felt that PDF availability was harming their business.
It's possible to have one outcome you want but suffer another outcome that's worse. If they reduce the piracy but lose too many customers due to poor customer service as a result, then the policy is a screw up.
The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.Well, he is goin in hot on a hard crowd...
The clarion cry of "mob mentality" I find nothing less than comical.
It couldn't possibly be that so many people actually have a legitemate gripe, now could it.
Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe. Many more have an illegitimate gripe - many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Some people have a legitimate gripe, and those people are being drowned out by the ones who are just in it to be in it.
|
I care about how people feel about WotC's treatment of them. There are those who were legitimately inconvenienced by this decision, and it sucks for them.But I also expect the gaming community to be responsible and level-headed, and so far those expectations have been set far too high. There are a lot of people who are not inconvenienced by this decision (and many more who are not inconvenienced to the degree where it would warrant a personal boycott) who have decided to make this a crusade. That sort of behavior needs to be addressed and corrected.
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.
That is like saying Because I am not gay I can't be upset at poor treatment of people who are gay..
Or because I am not a Woman, I can't fight for women rights..
The behavior you think needs to be corrected, does not need to be corrected, there is nothing wrong with it.
Edit: Though anyone that makes personal attacks, or inapporaite remarks do need to be corrected or calmed down.
Edit Edit: Yay.. I finally found a reason to post in this long thread.. Thanks Scott!
|
many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Hey now. That's pushing it a bit too far.
I happen to be frustrated because I bought the entire collection of 1E material and as much Greyhawk as I could from drivethrurpg that I can't get to anymore.
Don't tar everyone with the pirate brush, especially as so many in this forum are subscribers - legitimate purchasers of digital material, WotC, Paizo or otherwise.
But that's just it - if there wasn't an outcry they would know that they screwed up if their decision didn't improve the piracy/sales situation. And, conversely, just because there's an outcry doesn't mean they did screw up if it turns out that their decision improves the piracy/sales situation.In this particular case, outcry doesn't do anything useful except make the fan base look ugly. Which is bad, because the fan base already looks pretty ugly given that piracy in it is so rampant the publishing giant of the tabletop community felt that PDF availability was harming their business.
It's possible to have one outcome you want but suffer another outcome that's worse. If they reduce the piracy but lose too many customers due to poor customer service as a result, then the policy is a screw up.
It seems like what you're saying is that the decision itself isn't the problem, it's the PR follow-up to it (or lack thereof) that's the issue. Is that correct?
many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Hey now. That's pushing it a bit too far.
I happen to be frustrated because I bought the entire collection of 1E material and as much Greyhawk as I could from drivethrurpg that I can't get to anymore.
Don't tar everyone with the pirate brush, especially as so many in this forum are subscribers - legitimate purchasers of digital material, WotC, Paizo or otherwise.
I didn't tar everyone with the pirate brush. I said many. Not all. I was specifically avoiding tarring everyone with the pirate brush. At the same time, however, we have to acknowledge that it's true.
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.
You're absolutely right!
But what we're seeing isn't people upset at this because they feel for those who lost the ability to buy PDFs. We're seeing people upset because this situation is just an excuse for them to continue ragging on WotC for previous issue X.
There's nothing wrong with being a little frustrated with the situation. But a lot of the people complaining about this a) don't buy PDFs anyway, and b) are reacting far stronger than those who are actually inconvenienced by this decision.
Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe. Many more have an illegitimate gripe - many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.Some people have a legitimate gripe, and those people are being drowned out by the ones who are just in it to be in it.
Say, I do seem to recognize that phrase from somewhere. Scott, you wouldn't by any chance be posting elsewhere in the guise of a certain metallic dragon?
Besides, where do you get the "fact" that "Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe" from? It seems to me that the vast majority of people posting here have been directly affected by this (even if they had already downloaded any pdfs they had bought, there might be a time where they would need to re-download them again, thus they're being affected too).
Maybe you should take that advice you bandied about earlier to heart and not mistake a couple of people jumping on the "bandwagon of hate" as an expression of the majority doing the same.
No consumer should have to go through this.Go through...what, exactly? It's not like you're being exposed to something offensive. At worst, you simply had one avenue of purchasing products suspended, if you cared.
You don't think you're being more than a little over-dramatic, here?
Having their preferred method of purchases denied without having the reasons for the denial of service communicated to them in a timely and coherent manor.
It is poor customer service. It is irritating and these people are expressing their irritation with the situation. Yes they care that this avenue has been arbitrarily and unilaterally removed.
As for the RPGnow and DriveThrough misunderstanding the message - Hasbro WotC and TSR before them have a reputation for litigation. They probably acted so quickly to avoid any displeasure from a company with the ability to bury them in a court case.
Scott you are a very civil apologist but an apologist all the same. You tell people that they should feel the way you feel (i.e. it is not a problem for you so it shouldn’t be a problem for them), that their reaction is overly dramatic that is honey coated dismissiveness. In a nice and civil way you devalue their concerns, you appeal for calm but label those upset by the events as irrational, frothing and dangerous I find these labels to overly dramatic.
Your faith in Hasbro & WotC doing the right thing by everybody is admirable but it is a company run by human beings and human beings are far far far from perfect.
|
|
I didn't tar everyone with the pirate brush. I said many. Not all. I was specifically avoiding tarring everyone with the pirate brush. At the same time, however, we have to acknowledge that it's true.many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Hey now. That's pushing it a bit too far.
I happen to be frustrated because I bought the entire collection of 1E material and as much Greyhawk as I could from drivethrurpg that I can't get to anymore.
Don't tar everyone with the pirate brush, especially as so many in this forum are subscribers - legitimate purchasers of digital material, WotC, Paizo or otherwise.
This won't stop Pirates... Pirates know that..*wow I wan't to put Pirate speak in that!..
A Pirate won't be upset about this at all.. or even those who download them illegally, because they still can..
The majority of people who are upset are going to be the ones who bought the PDFs legally.
|
|
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.You're absolutely right!
But what we're seeing isn't people upset at this because they feel for those who lost the ability to buy PDFs. We're seeing people upset because this situation is just an excuse for them to continue ragging on WotC for previous issue X.
There's nothing wrong with being a little frustrated with the situation. But a lot of the people complaining about this a) don't buy PDFs anyway, and b) are reacting far stronger than those who are actually inconvenienced by this decision.
a persons Lack of Inconvenience..does not in anyway reduce the anger people should have on this..
I agree.. people may have over reacted in the past about things WotC has done... But this is not something that can be over reacted to..What WotC has done here warrants what you call over reaction..
If anyone over reacted it is WotC.
|
|
Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe. Many more have an illegitimate gripe - many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Some people have a legitimate gripe, and those people are being drowned out by the ones who are just in it to be in it.
Scott, seeing as you are posting here, and directing most of your comments to people who are posting here, it very much comes across as if you are accusing many of the people complaining here of pirating this material.
I know you’re probably not, so you may want to take the opportunity to clarify your statement.
But I really doubt the people complaining the loudest are the pirates anyway, because I imagine they still have access to all the pirated material they could want. I don’t see how this decision changes anything in terms of pirated material already released (and most people here are upset about lack of access to material already released).
The truly outrageous response this particular business decision has received from the fan base has convinced me never to involve myself in the tabletop publishing profession. While some of the fans are respectful, thoughtful and level-headed, a significant portion of the fanbase appears to be anything but. I would not wish to spend my life working on quality products for a bunch of people who display an attitude like that seen online over the past few days.
I really admire how you can defend bonehead WotC move after bonehead WotC move without shame. Whether it's yanking the various licenses, botching their PR, going hostile to the OGL, failing to deliver on any number of things, attacking sites, pulling all PDFs... It's all just misunderstood by "conspiracy theorists" suffering from "nerd rage." No one else can understand their brilliant business strategy; anyone who is hurt by it - well it's their own damn fault for being parters, customers, resellers, fans, or otherwise involved in the hobby in any way isn't it...
|
|
But what we're seeing isn't people upset at this because they feel for those who lost the ability to buy PDFs
Please don't speak for everyone. This is exactly why I'm upset, because I legitimately paid for the original version of the game I love, and because of some insane notion that some company wants to stop piracy by forcing legitimate businesses to stop offering them, not only for sale, but for download as well, I will never see that product again. Computers (and flash drives) don't last forever, and the one that stored my product has since died.
|
|
I didn't tar everyone with the pirate brush. I said many. Not all. I was specifically avoiding tarring everyone with the pirate brush. At the same time, however, we have to acknowledge that it's true.
Except you can't prove that. You have no data points, no trend models, no evidence to suggest that even 1 out of every 10 is pirating, let alone most (which implies something greater than 50%).
Resorting to saying that most people with a complaint are part of the problem without any kind of evidence is a low blow.
This won't stop Pirates... Pirates know that..*wow I wan't to put Pirate speak in that!..
A Pirate won't be upset about this at all.. or even thouse who download them illegally, because they still can..
The majority of people who are upset are going to be the ones who bought the PDFs legally.
Dragnmoon is exactly right.
This decision will only anger and alienate the non-pirate community of users who loved pdfs for how easy it made them to take their favorite game materials anywhere they could take their laptops...like work!
Let's see....Since the release of 4th ed. I have purchased over $200 in pdf files the lionshare of which probably went back to WotC...unless they open another avenue for the purchase of pdfs for their new materials, they won't get another cent from me going forward. With Arcane Power coming out in the very near future, that's $20 that they lose right there.
Now of course I know they don't care about my $20, but I don't think I'm alone in a world of 6 billion people...I know there's probably less than half-a-million gamers but I was exagerating for effect...
In any case, they only have to look back over the last few years or if they are history geeks like me...take a look at Prohibition...they won't stop the pirates and they will likely push otherwise honest folks who would have been happy to pay for their digital products to accept pirated equivalents just to have access to them.
Not smart WotC...not smart at all...
As an asside...there are some real jerks over on the WotC boards bad mouthing Paizo over this...and for the life of me, I don't have a clue where they get that Paizo has anything to do with a bad business decision by WotC marketing.
There are some serious trolls over there.
The WotC site is a little hard to navigate. I went to the message boards to read some of the comments posted regarding recent events, but really couldn't find anything--anyone got a link?
|
|
The WotC site is a little hard to navigate. I went to the message boards to read some of the comments posted regarding recent events, but really couldn't find anything--anyone got a link?
Sure the main forums are here.
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=693
The thread about this is in 4e general forum.
I really admire how you can defend bonehead WotC move after bonehead WotC move without shame. Whether it's yanking the various licenses, botching their PR, going hostile to the OGL, failing to deliver on any number of things, attacking sites, pulling all PDFs... It's all just misunderstood by "conspiracy theorists" suffering from "nerd rage." No one else can understand their brilliant business strategy; anyone who is hurt by it - well it's their own damn fault for being parters, customers, resellers, fans, or otherwise involved in the hobby in any way isn't it...The truly outrageous response this particular business decision has received from the fan base has convinced me never to involve myself in the tabletop publishing profession. While some of the fans are respectful, thoughtful and level-headed, a significant portion of the fanbase appears to be anything but. I would not wish to spend my life working on quality products for a bunch of people who display an attitude like that seen online over the past few days.
It makes for fun reading when I'm in the mood for lighthearted entertainment, or a farce. :)
((If you reach this later than 04/08/09, go back to that date for the proper comic <G>))
|
|
Please Don't Feed the Trolls! ((If you reach this later than 04/08/09, go back to that date for the proper comic <G>))
Great Link GG :)
I believe that some of the people attacking WotC set over the line, and that many of the people defending WotC as well. The former group sometimes has been taking this quite a bit angrily with way over the top comments. The latter group often greatly attacking and insulting other posters and companies in the apparent intent to protect WotC from everything.
I feel like I was forced to leave a thread on another forum when people from the second group started insulting myself and my choices with sweeping statements, and I couldn't find the word to respond in an appropriate manner without just inviting them to attack me and Paizo again. I would rather not see a similar thing come close to happening here with the former group.
I think that it could only help if people calmed down just a bit in the hopes of a less hostile thread. Not just referring to here, but rather, many of the threads on this subject on the Internet.
((If you reach this later than 04/08/09, go back to that date for the proper comic <G>))
This link should hopefully work still after that one. :)
Oh, the irony!!!
I just got my PDF of Kobold Quarterly #9.
In it--on page 60, if anyone cares--is an ad for RPGNow.com that reads as follows:
"Only at RPGNow can you get the absolute latest and best releases from Wizards of the Coast for 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons the day they are available, and always at a fantastic price. You can also find all of the great D&D products from now to years gone by, enabling you to have the most complete collection of D&D products ever."
Um,... no. Sorry. Not anymore!
You think WotC will reimburse them for whatever that ad cost? Just kidding! ;p
P.S. Coincidentally, the only products shown in the ad are all 4E D&D--the Player's Handbook (volume 1), Martial Power, and Manual of the Planes.
I suspect its a case that once RPGnow (et al) sign some sort of new document coming out of WotC legal dept, everything will be back to normal.
WotC/Hasbro do seem to be shooting themselves in the foot alot lately in a "we really don't understand our customers" sort of way.
In the UK we have a football chant..."you don't know what you're doing..."
(Bad Joke for Brits: WotC announce Steve McClaren as new head of customer services...)
Perhaps someone at WotC is secretly trying to promote Pathfinder :-P
"Lets cancel all our PDF sales so that a friendly competitor that makes a point of leveraging PDFs gets all the sales on their product rather than ours....."
PDFlove ? 35% off? Here,Ms Paizo, take my $$$....(even at the new lousy exchange rate...)
Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe. Many more have an illegitimate gripe - many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.Well, he is goin in hot on a hard crowd...
The clarion cry of "mob mentality" I find nothing less than comical.
It couldn't possibly be that so many people actually have a legitemate gripe, now could it.
Coming from some one who often tosses about the "don't make things up just because it is the internet," far too often - I so want to see you back that up.
|
Many of them don't have a legitimate gripe. Many more have an illegitimate gripe - many of the people complaining about this are those who actively pirate books.
Wow, nice bit of rhetorical technique - you could have hung out with the sophists.
I want to call it elision, but I'm not sure that's the right term.
Many people who do X are Y
Therefore if you do X there is a good chance that you are Y.
I've accused you of something, but can defend myself if you pull me up for it.
Plus there's presenting a completely unfounded statement with confidence, as if it were fact, and thus exploiting other readers' trusting natures.
What's really interesting is how effective it was. A few posters actually started arguing by Scott's rules. They defended themselves as not pirates and it took a while for someone to go: "Whoa,there! That's an assertion, an invention and, when it comes down to it, a lie."
(Even if it turns out to be true Scott still lied because he has no idea.)
As for this whole PDF thing... link.
therefore if Pathfinder thrives, then 4E is doomed!"
Wouldn't that be swell, though?
Unfortunately, their decisions won't hurt wizards enough. At least not until the damage they have done to the hobby have become fatal, or nearly so.
I am astounded that he still has an account there after all the venom he has put forth over the last two years.
Wizards only really enforces their policy if it goes against them. If you defend them, you have nothing to fear.
It seems to be, to them, a good way to get naysayers away fromt the boards: You don't officially send them away (that would leave no doubt that they persecute those who aren't rabid fanboys), but you encourage your raging fanboys to be as vitriolic as possible, and conveniently overlook any transgressions. That way, the nay-sayers will feel unwelcome and leave, but no one can really prove that you're acting like a third world dictator.
And we all know it works. How many people here have stopped posting at wizards because the climate is just obnoxious? It means that the official website will never have too many nay-sayers, and those poor souls who only look there will get a skewed perspective.
Which is OK with me, I really only stuck on with 4e because it was new and shiny, and out of strange sense of loyalty that has developed over the years.
I guess that happens a lot. Call it inertia, but people often tend to stick to something even if something better comes around, just because they're used to it.
Of course, wizards is good at driving those away.
Seems they only want those who are really rabid fanboys (of the company, not the product).
How long until they announce a new print magazine called, say, guard tower, and have fans hand it out in front of railroad stations? They're accumulating the worst traits of a religion over there.
I have been hanging out over at www.dungeonaday.com and here reading the forums and checking out the interactions with the customers and those that are selling products to them, and it is just amazing how well the folks at both sites interact with their fans/customers.
Yeah, the Paizo philosophy really works for me. I don't have to switch off my brain in order to like them. In fact, If I have a problem, I can come here and b#!++ about it, and I'll get a response from someone from Paizo (which can even be their CEO, who seems a really nice gal, by the way) explaining themselves to me. They don't get aires.
I settled on Classic Monsters Revisited for $8.
Good choice.
May I suggest Dragons Revisited as well? Should cost the same. It's really good as well (I just finished reading it an hour ago). They manage to keep the old roles for the 10 classical dragons the same and still give them a new image!
I love bits like the love/hate relationship reds have with golds, or the fact that the silver "paladin" dragons tarnish (go neutral or even evil) more often than others and need and want restrictive codes of conduct as other people need food and air.
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.
"I'm not a jew, why should I care that they're put in camps."
This "not my problem" mentality greatly helped the Nazi regime.
And you'd think people would learn from the tragic death of millions.
I blame the star trek thread it came up there a few mins before
I would also like to point out to the Titanium Dragon guy, sure the mods called down once or so, but how many times have yalls thread over there been locked?
|
World record, it took 744 posts before somebody invoked the Godwin's Law !I'm really surprised it took so long.
Actually my faith in humanity was faltering. But alas, all is good with the world.
I guess it's a good moment for us to derail this thread into oblivion. Where's Poodle..Court Fool when you need him ?
Pulls up throne, starts passing out weapons
Who wants the flamethrower?
Speak of the devil, and he will appear.
Look, folks. I know you think I'm some sort of boogeyman, but let's be honest here.
1) WotC owns the right to the distribution of their PDFs. They have the right to choose who can and cannot distribute their PDFs. If they decide no one can do so, so be it. You may not like it, but it is their decision, not yours, not Pazio's, not anyone else's.
2) The current situation was not ideal, but you all seem to lack empathy. You are not looking at it from other points of view.
a) Wizards of the Coast is not a villian. They're a company which produces a successful product, one which you all are so quick to forget is the basis for Paizo's pathfinder line, and really the success of Paizo in the first place, with their right to distribute some of their products, including Dungeon & Dragon magazines. They chose to withdraw these PDFs not for evil, machievallian reasons but because they are tired of the documents getting pirated the day of a release. Its when the PDFs come up on these sites when you see torrents of these files come up. They are guilty of miscommunication and misunderstanding, and perhaps of somewhat brash action - they decided to yank the PDFs, but immediately? Steve of DriveThruRPG claims that was the result of a miscommunication. Moreover, WotC is a company which does care about its customers. Anyone who says otherwise has never interacted with WotC. They do deal with customer service complaints, and they do care what people think, though not necessarily in the way that people generally think of it.
b) Paizo, DriveThruRPG, and the other PDF distribution companies aren't blameless victims here. They promised their customers the ability to download their documents again in the future, and did not make it clear to their consumers that this was not an inviolable guarantee; that if they were asked to pull down these documents, they would be removed, potentially on very short notice. They didn't make this clear enough, and people are, very understandably,...
1. True
2. They took away people products immediately and have not to issue a reason that makes sense. Before you mention it, nobody is buying the piracy excuse because those that are pirates will find a way to get them(pdfs)anyway so it solves nothing.
2a. Putting out a good product does not mean you are not a villain. For your piracy statement you know what the rebuttal will be. They were sent a letter that canceled the contract. I am sure they thought they would be sued if they did not follow through. The problem is not with anyone ability to understand it is with WoTC's ability to communicate efficiently. WoTC products helping Paizo does not mean anything they get to do whatever they want without question. I don't even know why that is supposed to be a valid point
2b. The misunderstanding of the distribution companies is a problem, but the customers know where the source of the problem lies and the other issue is the customers know that if Paizo decides to pull a product they would give a heads up instead of going on the website to suddenly find X product is no longer available. Paizo would also not give some excuse that could only fool someone with an I.Q. of 0.
3) While it is fair to be annoyed that PDFs are no longer available for the time being, it is still possible to purchase the books yourself and scan them in manually, if you want to use them as PDFs for some reason. Yes, its less convenient.
That is possible for the 4e books and for most of the 3.x books. But for older books, that are long gone OOP that is either very expensive, or not possible at all.
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.
"I'm not a jew, why should I care that they're put in camps."
This "not my problem" mentality greatly helped the Nazi regime.
And you'd think people would learn from the tragic death of millions.
This hyperbole is quite offensive. Pdfs... the Holocaust. Right....
Here's a Link to the court documents WoTC filed:
This hyperbole is quite offensive. Pdfs... the Holocaust. Right....
Scott... Just because a person is not personally affected by the removal of PDFs, does not mean they can not be upset about.
"I'm not a jew, why should I care that they're put in camps."
This "not my problem" mentality greatly helped the Nazi regime.
And you'd think people would learn from the tragic death of millions.
The hyperbole is offensive, but I must say that I find the attitude of "you're not affected, so you are wrong to care about how others are affected" to be much more offensive.