Director of Brand Strategy
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I didn't want to write this post.
The revised version of the Game System License, which allows third party companies to publish support material for the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons, came out this week. I dutifully looked it, noted a couple of improvements, but quickly realized it wasn't enough to get me to change my mind about using the license. An e-mail discussion with my Green Ronin cohorts confirmed that they felt the same way. I didn't really feel like talking about it public though, so I was going to let it lie, but then queries started rolling in. Lots of folks wanted to know what GR's plans were regarding 4E with the license change. I realized then I was going to have to say something, so here we are.
The reason I was reluctant to get back into this discussion goes back a couple of months. I was trying to remember something I did last year and went back to look over the entries in my blog for 2008. Paging through my entries I realized how much time I spent thinking, writing, and analyzing D&D4E, the OGL, and the GSL. And the upshot of all that was that we did one product, the Green Ronin Character Record Folio. It's an awesome accessory but ultimately the time I spent on all this was not well spent.
Now you will see people on message boards say that GR never seriously considered supporting 4E because I hate WotC, blah, blah, blah. While our ultimate decision is to go our own way, that was in no way predetermined. We had discussions about what 4E could mean to our various lines as far back as 2005. After it was announced, we brainstormed a bunch of ideas. I started doing some research and taking notes for a potential new campaign setting. We look at what sort of adventure support we might provide. We considered a 4E Freeport Companion to join the four we had already done. I even commissioned a conversion of an unpublished 3.5 adventure so we'd have something to release if the license looked good.
Had the rollout and the terms of the license been better, perhaps things would have ended up differently. The fact that it took 10 months from the announcement of 4E to the actual release of the GSL was in itself a problem for a company of Green Ronin's size (never mind the fact that the announced plans changed several times throughout that period). GR sells into the book trade, and that means that ideally we want to solicit new books 9 months in advance of release. Well, I certainly wasn't going to solicit books for a game I hadn't even seen using a license who terms I didn't know. Nor was I going to start designing blind in the hopes that it'd all work out.
It became clear during this period that there was a faction with WotC that wanted to close the door to third party publishing all together. There were also advocates, most notably Scott and Linae, but it seemed they were in a constant battle to make anything happen at all. The resultant license, the GSL, looked like an attempted compromise between the factions within WotC that probably pleased no one. It certainly pleased few of the established third party publishers. So within two months of the release of the original GSL, a revision was announce to address some of these concerns. It took over six months for that to happen, and while the revision has some improvements the core of it is very similar indeed to the original.
Now while this was all going on, Green Ronin was by no means standing still. We had existing lines like M&M and True20 to support, a new game line in A Song of Ice and Fire to launch, and new deals to negotiate. The company had begun diversifying away from d20 material many years earlier so it was really just a case of continuing that momentum. While d20 was good to us and we published some great books in that era, we ultimately got to a place where we controlled all of our own lines and were beholden to no one.
So when the GSL revision came out, I had to ask myself if I wanted GR to get pulled into WotC's orbit, even a little bit. The answer had to be no. I don't ever want to have to wonder again what a new edition of D&D means to my business. I don't want to worry about whether 5E or 6E is going to be open to third party publishers. I don't want to live with the spectre of the wrong person becoming an exec at WotC and wrecking my business with the stroke of a pen. It's just not worth it, particularly for the level of sales we'd be likely to see doing 4E support. (The best anyone has been able to say about sales of third party 4E stuff is that it's better than late era 3.5 sales, which is like saying that Friday the 13th Part 13 sold more tickets than Friday the 13th Part 12.)
And even leaving aside all the business talk and analysis for a moment, it might still be tempting to publish something for a game that we were excited about. I spent the second half of last year both running and playing 4E. I would play it again, but I have no burning desire to design for it. Nor do my GR cohorts. It has been my experience in the game industry that you don't do great work on a game that you aren't passionate about. You may recall during the d20 boom, a bunch of established companies jumped into the pool once they realized there was money to be made. They didn't really know or care about the rules and that was clear in the resultant products. Fans quickly sussed this out too. Well, I don't want to be one of those guys who is designing through gritted teeth because that's what he thinks "the kids" like these days.
I know there are some GR fans who were hoping we'd end up doing some 4E support. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I know that I'm making the right decision here. We can be much more successful working on games that excite us and that we control. Creatively and financially, it just makes more sense for us to chart our own course.
Have to say I find that a smart move. They have plenty going on without tieing themselves to 4e.
Just change a few nouns here and there, and that could almost be Paizo's reaction as well.
Great Minds think alike.
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I for one am disapointed. I would love to have seen 4E from GR. I do hope a Song of fore and Ice does well for them. The only thing in my neck of the woods that does well for them is Mutant and masterminds. Too many people see True20 as a another d&D clone. Not to mention True20 will have to compete against Pathfinder in terms of sales and imo PF wins and has better brand exposure. Now if only George Martin would not take forever to write a new book
The return to the pre-3e fracturing of the gaming community proceeds apace. :D
thats so true pressman, I am evening playing shadowrun again...now to get some battletech going and it'll be like the pre d20 days all over
I for one am disapointed. I would love to have seen 4E from GR. I do hope a Song of fore and Ice does well for them. The only thing in my neck of the woods that does well for them is Mutant and masterminds. Too many people see True20 as a another d&D clone. Not to mention True20 will have to compete against Pathfinder in terms of sales and imo PF wins and has better brand exposure. Now if only George Martin would not take forever to write a new book
They did a really nice job with the Wild Cards RPG book (Mutants & Masterminds/True20) and John Miller's done the sequel, Aces & Jokers, for them as well. And George has just turned the third book of the new Wild Cards trilogy in to Tor, so I expect he'll be writing more Song of Ice and Fire soon--though not tomorrow, since there's a booksigning he'll be at in Albuquerque with all the Wild Cards authors in Busted Flush (except for me and S.L. Farrell, who both can't make it, unfortunately).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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"Busted Flush" sounds icky and painful. "Ma'am, your husband appears to have contracted Busted Flush from someone. Here's some cream..."
I'll have to pick up the book (even if I need to use latex gloves). I like the universe (for the most part) and like your writing. I miss Penny :-(
I got the wild Cards book for the 'bible' and will likely pick up the adventures for the same.
At some point I need to buy Mutants and Masterminds for the actual rules *laugh*
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Hell yeah! Welcome back Chris. And, ... thank you.
"I don't want to live with the spectre of the wrong person becoming an exec at WotC and wrecking my business with the stroke of a pen."
... and as a player of more than 25+ years, I also refuse to live under the spectre of the wrong person becoming an exec at WotC and wrecking my game with the stroke of a pen. — Imho, that has currently happened and they've driven the game straight into the dirt.
Again, I wish Green Ronin the very best. Congratulations open game movement, - you're back on track and just beginning! Check out the new Pathfinder license, and get busy;)
Hooray!
Again, I wish Green Ronin the very best. Congratulations open game movement, - you're back on track and just beginning! Check out the new Pathfinder license, and get busy;)
I would find it strange if a company like Green Ronin made a seriously dedicated product line with compatibility to the final PFRPG. If you are unwilling to put your eggs in WotC's basket, why put them in Paizo's? Especially when you have your own system(s) and product lines?
I would find it strange if a company like Green Ronin made a seriously dedicated product line with compatibility to the final PFRPG. If you are unwilling to put your eggs in WotC's basket, why put them in Paizo's? Especially when you have your own system(s) and product lines?
Possibly due to the fact that Paizo's vision is closer to Green Ronin's?
Perhaps because it won't take Paizo over a year from launch to come out with (what is hoped, this time) is the *final* design license?
Perhaps because Paizo has exhibited none of the apparent schizophrenia of WotC (see GR's comment concerning factions at WotC above).
Perhaps, just perhaps, WotC has *earned* the mistrust of the 3rd-party publishers, through the missteps that have already occurred.
Perhaps Paizo looks more promising because Paizo doesn't require you to put the whole dozen eggs in their basket?
No one can say for sure, but it is sure fun to speculate. :)
No one can say for sure, but it is sure fun to speculate. :)
Perhaps, but considering the post above sounds more like, "We like doing stuff for own systems now better than for other people's." I just don't see any serious investment in PFRPG by Green Ronin. Oh, they may make a product or two, but a dedicated line? Doubtful.
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Perhaps, but considering the post above sounds more like, "We like doing stuff for own systems now better than for other people's." I just don't see any serious investment in PFRPG by Green Ronin. Oh, they may make a product or two, but a dedicated line? Doubtful.
I could see them releasing a sourcebooks but making a dedicated line I would be very surprised. They have True20 and are probably going to be focusing more on that. Second GR has to make sure PF sell well enough to warrent investing in it. Third they have invested a lot of time and money in A song of fire and ice why would they want to invest in a product that may end up competing against it.
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Yet another Death Knell of the D&D line, 4e has splintered the entire community, just as 3e actually brought the community closer. To me this is great news, a return to great publishers and creative new ideas.
Deadlands...great game, Deadlands d20...meh
Now is the winter of our discontent! The time to tear down these megacorporate gaming walls has come!! I don't want some suit&tie to decide how I want to game!
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...just as 3e actually brought the community closer.How did 3e bring the community closer? I remember folks lambasting True20 for breaking apart 3.x.
bringing the gaming community together, not the 3e community...cross-publishing setting materials in d20/proprietary systems, I have d20 books from at least 10 different 3rd party publishers. While I don't buy true20 material, I have bought lots of GR product, the Advanced Bestiary being one of my favorite books.
Yet another Death Knell of the D&D line, 4e has splintered the entire community, just as 3e actually brought the community closer.
Have you considered that you might be making something of a mountain out of the molehill that is your distaste for a particular version of a tabletop game? There are huge masses of people (reportedly more than we've seen in years, by many counts) playing 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons. Whatever you might think of the game, I really don't think you're in a position to declare something to be its "death knell".
I mean, really. The new GSL gets announced and probably dozens of 3pp publishers, big and small, sign up to produce products for the new edition. A notable one decides not to, and instead of taking a balanced look at things by saying "Huh, it looks like the new GSL has injected more life into the community behind 4th Edition," you've decided that it is, instead, a "death knell" because a single publisher (who, like Paizo, actually makes its own RPG anyway) decided not to adopt the license.
This is echo chamber mentality at its worst, guys.
4E seems to be doing OK for WotC. The PHB2 is #42 on Amazon's sales list - and it's not even out yet. (At least it was #42 about an hour ago.)
4E also seems to be doing OK for Goodman Games.
Beyond those two though, I have no idea.
As for Green Ronin and Pathfinder, I could see a Pathfinder Character Folio, but that's about it in the short term. :)
Long term? I suppose it depends on Pathfinder's longevity and the success (or lack thereof) of Green Ronin's own systems. No need to do Pathfinder if M&M, True20, and/or A Song of Ice and Fire are doing well.
This is echo chamber mentality at its worst, guys.
I'm less confidant this would be the best case for the display as there was no actual echo as of yet. People can have strong understandings of how things are doing without it being the result of an echo chamber.
This is echo chamber mentality at its worst, guys.I'm less confidant this would be the best case for the display as there was no actual echo as of yet. People can have strong understandings of how things are doing without it being the result of an echo chamber.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik was an example of the echo. The idea that corporate drones are trying to tell you how to roll your dice has been bandied about for a few months now, here and elsewhere - to say nothing of calling every new development a "death knell" when all actual data supports the notion that 4th Edition is not only selling well, but satisfying customers enough to generate that kind of enthusiasm for supplements (It's now #39 on the bestsellers list, and #22 on their hot new items list).
An echo chamber occurs whenever an individual continually hears their own beliefs repeated back to them, whether or not those beliefs reflect reality. It's damaging to an online community, especially one interested in bringing communities together, as it is a fundamentally insular, non-critical mentality.
I'm really not interested in seeing this get out of hand, but comments like Xaaon's don't really contribute anything besides (arguably) baiting and perpetuating that same mentality.
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Here's something to add into the mix, guys.
I know d20 is supposed to be the "holy grail" of gaming, but you know what? I've been ENJOYING seeking out other game systems lately! I enjoy the d20 system quite well, but there are plenty of other games out there that have fully enjoyable rules sets that, when I read them I think "How clever!"
I've never been this happy to own diverse products, a rich d20 library AND a nice 4E library. It's a great time to game!
Here's something to add into the mix, guys.
I know d20 is supposed to be the "holy grail" of gaming, but you know what? I've been ENJOYING seeking out other game systems lately! I enjoy the d20 system quite well, but there are plenty of other games out there that have fully enjoyable rules sets that, when I read them I think "How clever!"
I've never been this happy to own diverse products, a rich d20 library AND a nice 4E library. It's a great time to game!
It really is. The industry (and gaming in general) is emerging onto a plane we've never quite seen before. And I don't doubt that it's only going to get more awesome from here.
Here's something to add into the mix, guys.
I know d20 is supposed to be the "holy grail" of gaming, but you know what? I've been ENJOYING seeking out other game systems lately! I enjoy the d20 system quite well, but there are plenty of other games out there that have fully enjoyable rules sets that, when I read them I think "How clever!"
I've never been this happy to own diverse products, a rich d20 library AND a nice 4E library. It's a great time to game!
I agree completely, D20 is just a common gaming option but it's revival with the 3rd edition has sparked huge new interest in RPG's which has put new life into Roleplaying. Pendragon RPG could be viewed as 'more' D20 than most D20 system due to the fact that all the main system uses a D20.
I've enjoyed many other Systems as well and have found D&D 3rd ed and 3.5 very frustrating at high levels with the spell imbalance destroying the game. I still enjoy playing 3rd ed but also enjoy 4E and don't think 4E has matured enough to show it's full potential as a Roleplaying game.I also find it sad that people are happy to cheer on visible snags in a game which may cause it to falter. I have to say, at a local convention in the UK, the Living Forgotten Realms slots were so over subscribed I couldn't get one 4E game over a 5 day period.
I'd say 4E seems to be gaining momentum despite 'nay sayers' and 3rd party additions. Personally I'd like to see more 3rd Party involvement to help it mature.
Xaaon of Xen'Drik was an example of the echo. The idea that corporate drones are trying to tell you how to roll your dice has been bandied about for a few months now, here and elsewhere - to say nothing of calling every new development a "death knell" when all actual data supports the notion that 4th Edition is not only selling well, but satisfying customers enough to generate that kind of enthusiasm for supplements (It's now #39 on the bestsellers list, and #22 on their hot new items list).An echo chamber occurs whenever an individual continually hears their own beliefs repeated back to them, whether or not those beliefs reflect reality. It's damaging to an online community, especially one interested in bringing communities together, as it is a fundamentally insular, non-critical mentality.
I'm really not interested in seeing this get out of hand, but comments like Xaaon's don't really contribute anything besides (arguably) baiting and perpetuating that same mentality.
Oh please. "Death Knell" may be a bit overdramatic, but it's a simple fact of the marketplace that whenever a new edition of anything comes out, it's either more popular, less popular or about the same.
D&D 3.X was pretty much a massive revival, with huge amounts published and a very large amount of that enjoyable and playable.
4e? Yes, it's being sold. Yes, it's being played. But whether it will have the longevity of 3.X, when as of present, there still aren't any rules for familiars and a half dozen other things that many old players find iconic?
I think the editorial decision to make it so that you have to buy two PHBs, a martial book and a spellcasting book to round out the core set, rather than have all the rules in three books as before... Well, it's a poor decision. It makes the 1st ed PHB look like a masterpiece of slim elegance.
Gleemax died an odd death. D&D Insider? I don't know anyone personally who's willing to pay for it.
I expect 4e is going to be another 2nd ed--a game that has some cool stuff and some fans, and a game that will be many gamers first game--but not one that will engage as many as 1st ed or 3.X.
Oh please. "Death Knell" may be a bit overdramatic, but it's a simple fact of the marketplace that whenever a new edition of anything comes out, it's either more popular, less popular or about the same.
I think that should go without saying.
D&D 3.X was pretty much a massive revival, with huge amounts published and a very large amount of that enjoyable and playable.
4e? Yes, it's being sold. Yes, it's being played. But whether it will have the longevity of 3.X, when as of present, there still aren't any rules for familiars and a half dozen other things that many old players find iconic?
According to all reports we have, it's selling more than 3.5 was, even at its release. And you can grumble about how it's still "missing" this element or that element, but for every element they removed from the first three books they added another. I don't know why people would expect it to be identical to the last edition of D&D's core save some token mechanical updates when that's never really been the case. What you consider "missing" a lot of other people don't really miss much at all, and what you're so willing to ignore in terms of new content a great many people view as welcome new material.
I think the editorial decision to make it so that you have to buy two PHBs, a martial book and a spellcasting book to round out the core set, rather than have all the rules in three books as before... Well, it's a poor decision.
All the rules are in three books. You can play D&D 4th Edition with the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual. It's a complete game. It runs great. It's not identical, content-wise, to 3rd Edition, but why would it be? It's good to change things up now and then, and all the new classes and races are fun to play. You don't need anything else to round out the "core" set, as it were.
It makes the 1st ed PHB look like a masterpiece of slim elegance.
Gleemax died an odd death. D&D Insider? I don't know anyone personally who's willing to pay for it.
I know LOTS, myself included. I imagine it would be tough to find people willing to pay for a subscription if you surround yourself with nothing but those who refuse to play 4th Edition. I am pretty actively involved in my university's role playing games club, and not only do some of the members have subscriptions (and I'm talking about college students here), but the club itself owns one to boot.
Besides, if your argument is that people won't play 4th Edition because it's missing iconic elements you consider critical, we would expect to see the opposite of what we are now: we ought to see people leaving 4th Edition in large numbers for previous editions, not Top 50 bestselling pre-orders on this month's supplement. It's looking like people are more than willing to pay for 4th Edition updates to classes that appeared in previous editions. I suspect Arcane Power will see very high pre-order numbers as well.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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KAM wrote = Anecdote this.
SB wrote = Anecdote that.
My Anecdote = All I can say is Pathfinder is selling well enough to keep my FLGS ordering it, so is 4E, but they're already seeing discounts offered by their vendor on DMG I and MM I.
Sales are down overall, they know I buy my Battletech stuff there (and now Ultimate Toolbox) as a show of support, but I subscribe to KQ, and to Paizo. So their pathfinder sales aren't coming from moi.
(neither are their 4X sales for that matter)
I wonder if the problem is actually the fact that you can buy the newer RPG products on Amazon for like 30-35% off which saves you quite a bit per book (and usually available for free shipping) and the only way to get a bigger discount is to have an account through Alliance Games and buy in bulk (100+ dollars per order) to get 40% off but pay for shipping.
It is crazy for stores to continue to charge full prices for RPG Products.
Oooo! Is this where we are continuing the edition wars? Keep it up, guys. Split the community. I am happy to steal your gamers who are frustrated with all of this.
Oooo! Is this where we are continuing the edition wars? Keep it up, guys. Split the community. I am happy to steal your gamers who are frustrated with all of this.
They started it! We were peaceful minding our own business in our 4e forums!!
Oooo! Is this where we are continuing the edition wars? Keep it up, guys. Split the community. I am happy to steal your gamers who are frustrated with all of this.
Fighting over 3.x or 4e isn't going to make anyone want to play your favorite game systems.
According to all reports we have, it's selling more than 3.5 was, even at its release. And you can grumble about how it's still "missing" this element or that element, but for every element they removed from the first three books they added another.
You're comparing 3.5 with 4e rather than comparing 3.0 with 4e? Not the same thing at all.
The 3.0 and 4e launches followed the same product model: Massive break from previous edition and the three core books released at steep discount.
3.5, OTOH, was a much grumbled about midcourse revision that a large number of players saw no reason to buy, or at least to rebuy the core books when the revisions from 3.0 were slight enough you could handwave them.
As for massive new content infusion and swapping things in and out, let's just put that to the test. I'd say a fair comparison would be to check the number of monsters listed in the MM 3.0 vs the MM 4e. I've not checked this, but I have my impressions, so the easiest way to test it is to just count them.
MM 3.0 224 pages
MM 4e 287 pages
Hmm, well, that does look more promising for 4e. But let's count the actual monsters.
MM 3.0 392 monsters
MM 4e 155 monsters
Admittedly, that's probably lowballing some of the 4e monsters because 4e has subheadings for different types of the same monster, but that's something that goes back to 1st ed: There aren't separate entries for aquatic ogres or aquatic ghouls, just a footnote of what they're called.
In any case, yeah, I think I've made my point. The 3.0 MM has more monsters than the 4e MM, despite the 4e MM having 63 more pages.
Why the page and monster discrepancy? More white space, larger illustration, far larger stat blocks, and some idea that players want to see the stats for the same monster as butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, rather than apply the professions or combat specialties later.
Oooo! Is this where we are continuing the edition wars? Keep it up, guys. Split the community. I am happy to steal your gamers who are frustrated with all of this.
Dont do it that way lays madness...and the hero system
Fighting over 3.x or 4e isn't going to make anyone want to play your favorite game systems.
Are you sure?
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Fighting over 3.x or 4e isn't going to make anyone want to play your favorite game systems.Are you sure?
So, CourtFool, so you're implying with the above remark that that, by maintaining such a "fight", that you'll get folks who enjoy 4E to return to 3.x? If so, please elaborate. If not, what do you feel you're contributing to this discussion with your snipes.
No, I was implying that by maintaining such a fight D&D players may turn to other systems to get away from the edition wars.
Thanks for implying my snipes are not contributing. I will shut up since my opinion offends you.
Never mind, Courtfool answered on his own behalf.
Cheers,
Colin
Of course, I could be waaaaaaaaaay off base here ;-)
Well, that and, if what pres man said is true it could follow that…
Fighting over 3.x or 4e isn't going to make anyone want to play your favorite edition.
…is equally true.
The hero system Is the favored system of demons and tribbles
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No, I was implying that by maintaining such a fight D&D players may turn to other systems to get away from the edition wars.
Really? Huh. That's a good topic: "Did/does the D&D Edition Wars cause you to turn to other rpg systems?" I don't want to threadjack, so I'll post the question elsewhere on the board.
Good job, CourtFool. Can't wait to read your opinions.
Can't wait to read your opinions.
How dare you, sir! Are you implying my opinion matters? :P
Hmm, well, that does look more promising for 4e. But let's count the actual monsters.
MM 3.0 392 monsters
MM 4e 155 monstersAdmittedly, that's probably lowballing some of the 4e monsters because 4e has subheadings for different types of the same monster, but that's something that goes back to 1st ed: There aren't separate entries for aquatic ogres or aquatic ghouls, just a footnote of what they're called.
Nice. I bet you got your "155 monsters" number by just counting the entries in the Table of Contents. Which is great, if you're looking for something other than the actual number of monsters provided. But since that's what you claimed your number was, I'm afraid it's incorrect. There's no real need to lowball anything - a quick search of the D&D Compendium (even the demo version!) could have told you that the Monster Manual contains no fewer than 489 monsters, nearly a hundred more than the 3rd Edition Monster Manual.
In the future, let's try to be a bit more accurate. And don't try to deflect all this by claiming "All those 300 extra monsters are just subheadings!" They're not. Each monster has its own fully functioning stat block, usually with descriptive text including tactics and knowledge check results. Many monsters within the same base "species" operate completely differently from one another. I mean, for crying out loud, your count of monsters requires that we believe an Imp to be the same monster as a Pit Fiend, just with different subheadings.
If you're here to try and dig up ways to try and illustrate how you think previous editions are better than 4th Edition, you probably should take it somewhere else, especially if you're not going to bother taking the time to be intellectually honest about it in the first place.
Love Paizo and love Green Ronin (even though their shipping time sucks ass) - glad to see them on the same business page. Just means more gaming goodies for us IMHO.
As for edition wars, I got my oversized d20 ready and my sling in hand. Who wants one in the eye? :)
well scott, if we are count every single stated monster and not just the header.
3.0 MM has 741+ 13 templets...just to let ya know