The Beta Playtest is Officially Closed

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hi there Everybody,

The Beta Playtest of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is officially closed. What started on March 18th, 2008 with the release of the first Alpha playtest documents has now come to its successful conclusion, after 6 months of playtesting the Beta rules. As of this date, there have been over 45,000 downloads of the rules and well over 100,000 posts to our boards with a lot of great feedback, criticism, and praise.

While all of the Alpha forums and the Beta Playtest forums are now closed to comment, the Announcement, Playtest Reports, and General Discussion forums will remain open until the release of the final game on August 13th, 2009 (the first day of the GenCon Game Fair). The pdf of the Beta Playtest version of the rules will remain available until that time.

I just wanted to take a moment to thank each and every one of you for contributing your feedback throughout this lengthy process. I see this project as a joint effort between the design team and you, the thousands of folks who have given their time and energy to make this a better game. Over the next few months, I look forward to showing off some of the game that you helped shape. Check back with the Paizo Blog for updates and previews of the final game.

It is my hope that you will check out the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game when it is released and give it a try. I am sure that you will find it packed full of helpful revisions, simplified rules, and inspired ideas, all of which you helped to create.

Thank you again

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Roman]

Thank you Jason for giving us the opportunity to participate. I am looking forward to seeing the final results!

[Xaaon of Xen'Drik]

Jason,

I'd like to thank you for allowing us to do playtesting!

One last play-test problem we just ran into in our high level PbP playtest...

Giant sunders fighter's wings of flying...under the current rules, that's a sunder against an item with 2 hardness and 10 hit points...that's a really flimsy 54,000gp item...

In 3e of course, sunder was against weapons/armor and items got saves...

In PFRPG items don't get saves and they can be destroyed far too easily for a powerful magic items.

In 3e weapons/armor gained +2hardness/+10HP per +1 bonus...

Should PFRPG items get bonuses based upon caster level perhaps?

So a CL10 item might get the equivalent of a +5 bonus..(since a +10 weapon would gain 20harness/100hp)

Need some clarification on this with the final edition.

Will Pathfinder have an Official FAQ posted after release of the final edition?

[Ross Byers]

Thanks for allowing us to participate, Jason. I hope my last-minute dumping of ideas proves useful.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Thanks Xaaon, but I do have to ask folks to keep playtest comments out of this thread. If you want to start a thread in the general discussion forum, please do by all means.

Although the plans are not finalized yet, I believe we will have an official FAQ (although I am hoping it does not need to be as extensive as the 3.5 FAQ).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[James Martin]

Good job, man! Even the Beta was a vast improvement over several things in the 3.5 ruleset. I'm looking forward to getting my shiny copies of the Bestiary and Core Book in August!

[Roman]

Jason, allow me a final suggestion/comment, which I was about to post as the design forums closed.

It concerns Knowledge: Local. This skill is strange at best, because it is the only non-universal Knowledge skill in that it relates only to a specific area. It also makes it problematic in the regard that it is highly locale-dependent, yet PCs tend to travel. Furthermore, it is also conceptually problematic because it overlaps with almost every other Knowledge: Skill, but especially Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: History and Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty.

Because it is a skill that nobody would take, in my campaigns I have been giving 5 ranks (well, bonus of +5 and the ability to use the skill untrained) in this skill for free to all characters, related to the region they come from (or spread over multiple regions if they have travelled in the past). I am thinking of even giving them a free maximum progression in this skill instead of my +5 bonus. The initial bonus would go to their home region and they would gain subsequent ranks for any region where they spent significant time as they advance in levels.

Now onto the workings of this skill. Because of the overlap this skill has with other Knowledge skills, I have been thinking about converting it into a bonus that would be applied to rolling the appropriate knowledge skill (say Knowledge: History) when dealing with the local area/region the "Knowledge: Local" (the term should probably just be replaced with the name of the region/area and the bonus, something like - Region: Asur Surdak + 5 [to take an example from my own world]). A character inquiring about the history of Asur Surdak would then roll a regular Knowledge: History check, but would apply his regional bonus for Asur Surdak, if he has it!

Thanks for allowing me to express a final suggestion!

[Roman]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Thanks Xaaon, but I do have to ask folks to keep playtest comments out of this thread. If you want to start a thread in the general discussion forum, please do by all means.

My appologies Jason - I was already typing my post when you posted, so I didn't see it. I will repost it in the General Forum.

[Shisumo]

Just posting to say thanks for the chance to be a part of this! You guys are truly creating a community of gamers, and I have to say, it's been a blast being involved!

Now I just gotta wait till GenCon...

[Jason Bulmahn]

Thanks Roman,

I know it is hard to let go but I must reiterate. Please keep playtest feedback out of this thread. You can post up any remaining ideas to the General Discussion forum.

Edit: No worries.. Just wanted to clear things up.

Thanks

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing.

[joela]

So...when's the Pathfinder RPG 2.0 opening testing begin? ;-)

Huh. Was that a banshee? Or the sound of Jason screaming?

[Locke1520]

Thank you for taking the effort to solicit help from the community as a whole. I'm glad I was able to be a part of this process and I'm looking forward to the release core rule books.

[Locke1520]

joela wrote:

So...when's the Pathfinder RPG 2.0 opening testing begin? ;-)

Huh. Was that a banshee? Or the sound of Jason screaming?

No I think it was my wallet. It does that every time someone prematurely asks for an edition change.

[joela]

Locke1520 wrote:

joela wrote:

So...when's the Pathfinder RPG 2.0 opening testing begin? ;-)

Huh. Was that a banshee? Or the sound of Jason screaming?

No I think it was my wallet. It does that every time someone prematurely asks for an edition change.

Not your credit cards?

[Pygon]

Best of luck in your endeavor, Jason.

I had hoped to have more to contribute to the Beta, but I either didn't run into anything that stood out that much, or I couldn't confirm my ideas with enough testing.

I'll be eager to see what kind of difference all the feedback made!

[Jason Nelson]

A hearty thanks to the folks at Paizo and to you, Jason, in particular. I'm sure that everyone on the messageboards, whether they posted in the playtest forums a little or a lot (umm... yeah, perhaps guilty on that), enjoyed the chance to chime in with our experiences with the game and (more often) opinions about how things worked, but we hope that there was a good measure of wheat in all the chaff we threw out there. I must have gotten my last post (in the Prestige Classes about the Pathfinder Chronicler) right in under the wire, because I posted it and went back to edit it after re-reading but NOPE.

Still, it was a lot of fun and provoked a lot of interesting discussion, and a big thumbs up to you and the Paizo crew for indulging the great unwashed masses in the future of the game!

Jason N

[die_kluge]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there Everybody,

Jason - any sense of how much of a difference there is between the final product and the Beta product?

I mean - what will compel people to buy the final product if the Beta is free?

In other words - sell me on the final product. :)

[Timitius]

I hear that there are Gamma Playtests starting up in speakeasies across the world.

Look for the Pathfinder "P" etched on walls, sidewalks, and sewer grates......

[Hayden]

Thanks a lot Jason.

All my friends and fellow players are playing beta now... They like it as much they hate 4edition... and the final product will be far better I suppose. I'm so curious about its excerpts! :)

[Jason Bulmahn]

die_kluge wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there Everybody,

Jason - any sense of how much of a difference there is between the final product and the Beta product?

I mean - what will compel people to buy the final product if the Beta is free?

In other words - sell me on the final product. :)

There will be plenty of changes and fixes between the Beta and the Final version of the game due out in August. I look forward to previewing a number of these issues in the coming months.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Bagpuss]

I've enjoyed it. Although obviously not as much as you have enjoyed reading my posts but then, unless James Jacobs does finally attract Kate Beckinsale's amorous attention, my posts will obviously remain the Paizo highlight of the decade..

[Cpt_kirstov]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

die_kluge wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there Everybody,

Jason - any sense of how much of a difference there is between the final product and the Beta product?

I mean - what will compel people to buy the final product if the Beta is free?

In other words - sell me on the final product. :)

There will be plenty of changes and fixes between the Beta and the Final version of the game due out in August. I look forward to previewing a number of these issues in the coming months.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Also: I'm guessing a lot of the art will change

[Tholas]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

There will be plenty of changes and fixes between the Beta and the Final version of the game due out in August. I look forward to previewing a number of these issues in the coming months.

I wonder how much time is left until James and his goons break down your office door and demand that you hand over your firstborn. ;-)

[Roman]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

die_kluge wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there Everybody,

Jason - any sense of how much of a difference there is between the final product and the Beta product?

I mean - what will compel people to buy the final product if the Beta is free?

In other words - sell me on the final product. :)

There will be plenty of changes and fixes between the Beta and the Final version of the game due out in August. I look forward to previewing a number of these issues in the coming months.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Just out of interest - will there be any reversions to the 3.5E way of doing things? Regardless, I am looking forward to reading the previews and eventually the final product!

[ruemere]

Thank you for your patience and hard work. It must have been one hell of a time reading our comments and keeping one's wits and calm.

Just three final requests:
Please keep the design decisions simple.
As sometimes less is more, it's better to skip controversial changes leaving them for later. The elegance of the simplified project lies in its ease of use.
Check Apple's Apple Human Interface Guidelines) for a sound and convincing case for:
- keeping changes simple and obvious,
- focusing on the user experience,
- avoiding overburdening with information.

Ask someone not familiar with Pathfinder rules to read changes.
There were several places where wording was vague. I am sure the words made perfect sense to developers, however, for those who were not directly involved in writing the book, some rules led to heated debates.

Keep stuff together and organized according to the same rule.
Class stuff in class sections. Feats and Spells indexed according to the same rule (i.e. "X, Improved" and "Teleport, Greater" or "Improved X" and "Greater Teleport" as opposed to 3.5's mess).

Thank you and good luck.

Regards,
Ruemere

[toyrobots]

*snif*

I'm gonna miss it.

Oh, and one more thing: Do all the stuff that I suggested.

That would be cool, thanks.

[Tarren Dei]

Thanks, Jason, for letting us all be a part of this.

[Mosaic]

This has really been a lot of fun. These forums have been a great creative outlet for me for the last year or so. I've learned a lot from Jason and everyone at Paizo, as well as fellow posters. Thanks for letting us play in your sandbox.

[fray]

Yay! We did sometin gud!!!
We can pleeze haz rulz soon? (like August)

[joela]

fray wrote:

Yay! We did sometin gud!!!

We can pleeze haz rulz soon? (like August)

Paizo apparently did something well. Apparently, fray, grammar and spelling weren't parts of it. :-)

[seekerofshadowlight]

Heh, was some ride huh guys. Starts opening the beer

[Guillaume Godbout]

I did not get a chance to participate as much as I wanted to in the Beta playtest, as my gaming group inploded after a TPK at the end of The Bullywug Gambit. However, we did get a few games in and I did manage to discuss some aspects of the rules which were unclear to us. It was a rare opportunity and I am glad that the guys at Paizo gave it to us.

Thanks guys, looking forward to August-September when I will get my copy of the final rule book.

[Geirunni]

I can only say that I am sorry for not discovering Pathfinder sooner. I came in at the last minute to see a wonderful product in development.

May we still offer suggestions in the General Discussions area? I have just started a playtest with my game group (they are having fun with it). Some of us might have something to share.

Anyways looking forward to the final rendering of this wonderful product this summer......

[Charles Evans 25]

Officially closed?
Well good luck with digesting all the comments, and thank you for inviting us to play with (to the point of destruction in some cases) your toys, and please try to avoid a complete nervous breakdown in the rush to get PFRPG to the printers in time for Gencon UK.
You did mean Gencon UK, right? I mean only a maniac would go for the earlier, American, Gencon event as a release date and give themself less time to get the work in.... ;)

[KaeYoss]

Three cheers for the Beta! And three more cheers for the final version! August seems so far away. Can't wait.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Heh, was some ride huh guys. Starts opening the beer

I'll drink to that!

Takes a sip of tea

Sorry, but it's not even noon, the beer will have to wait.

die_kluge wrote:

Jason - any sense of how much of a difference there is between the final product and the Beta product?

I mean - what will compel people to buy the final product if the Beta is free?

In other words - sell me on the final product. :)

Hi Das Kluge (never know with you)!

The final will have a couple of hundred pages on the beta, and will be a hardcover. There will be new art (which will in all likelyhood be beyond gorgeous), and so on.

And all the stuff Jason said.

I think the art stuff and the will to support those who support our favourite edition of D&D (well, mine at least) will make a strong case for getting the RPG hardcover instead of sticking to the free beta or free PFRPG SRD (whatever it will be called)!

Locke1520 wrote:

joela wrote:

So...when's the Pathfinder RPG 2.0 opening testing begin? ;-)

Huh. Was that a banshee? Or the sound of Jason screaming?

No I think it was my wallet. It does that every time someone prematurely asks for an edition change.

I think it will be due sometimes 2014. Maybe a bit sooner? And since it will be a new edition rather than a revision, a 5-year-playtest period isn't that much ;-)

But I can wait - it will be a nice announcement for Gen Con '10 :D

[Asgetrion]

It's been a great ride, and I've enjoyed it immensively. The same excitement I felt last spring is still there, and I'm eagerly waiting for August! I wish to express my heart-felt thanks to you, Jason, and the whole Paizo crew, for getting my more excited about D&D than I've been ever since 3E came out -- and letting us all participate in shaping the future of the game! :)

My only regrets about my own contribution is that too often I let my personal opinions either draw me into foolish arguments or start them (the Paladin thread, I'm looking at you!). My apologies for everyone I may have hurt -- it never was my intention to do so. Also, I might have concentrated on providing more feedback on how things *ACTUALLY* worked out during the playtest sessions, instead of how I *WANTED* the mechanics to work in PF RPG. Finally, I regret that real life obligations (work and social life, namely) have kept me too busy to submit new entries to my playtest campaign diary -- I should have shared this duty with the players, so that they could have written the "base" entries and I would have only added some "GM commentary" to them.

I also wish to thank the whole Paizo community for insightful ideas, comments, debates and feedback -- maybe not all of it was constructive or relevant to the discussion, but I loved seeing the passion and excitement everyone showed. :)

[Seldriss]

Thank you Paizo for bringing us this fresh air in the D&D/D20 system, merging tradition and innovation to give us the style of game we like.

Thank you Jason for your dedicated and inspired work, and your kindness and patience towards us all on these messageboards.

Thank you Paisonians for the stunning amount of suggestions and constructive feedback, all paving the road of Pathfinder.

I loved the alpha and beta, but that's nothing with what's coming next, the actual Pathfinder RPG.

[bden]

Jason
At a later point in time
It would be cool to have your final impressions of some of the major changes and why (with some reference to the posts)

Thanks for all your hard work Paizo people

[brock]

bden wrote:

Jason

At a later point in time
It would be cool to have your final impressions of some of the major changes and why (with some reference to the posts)

Thanks for all your hard work Paizo people

Very much agreed! I'd actually pay for a short book on "The Design of Pathfinder RPG : My road to insanity."

[toyrobots]

brock wrote:

bden wrote:

Jason

At a later point in time
It would be cool to have your final impressions of some of the major changes and why (with some reference to the posts)

Thanks for all your hard work Paizo people

Very much agreed! I'd actually pay for a short book on "The Design of Pathfinder RPG : My road to insanity."

...yeah, he could just print and bind the entire contents of this forum.

[Brutesquad07]

Brock wrote:

Very much agreed! I'd actually pay for a short book on "The Design of Pathfinder RPG : My road to insanity."

Umm, I find it hard to believe that anyone truly insane can write a book about how they went insane...on the other hand crayon colored pictures would do!

[DM Jeff]

Great news! Good luck finishing it up, and thanks for letting us post feedback. Look forward to the book in August!

-DM Jeff

[Dryder]

August...still so much time...
Could you also show us a sample page of the bestiary in the Paizo Blog, kind of soonish, pleeeaaaase!!! It would help in not going crazy while waiting for those two books...

[Liquidsabre]

Very much looking forward to your blog entries with previews for the final version Jason! Can't wait for august! Any tips on getting a hold of a copy at the earliest possible date (pdf maybe?) and with extras (signed special editions, etc.) besides camping out at gencon? :)

Best wishes hammering out the final product over the next couple of months Jason!

[Disciple of Sakura]

Dang real world and slow play style... my friends and I tried to do a playtest while playing Second Darkness, and only managed to finish volume one before the playtest ended. Much of what we have had issues with have been discussed on the boards, but it would have been nice to provide additional feedback or discover something that needed to be addressed that may have been missed.

Still, we'll keep playing, and looking forward to August's release. That'll be the bright point of the month, while I also have to gear up for back to school on a college campus bookstore (which is hellish).

[toyrobots]

Maybe it's worth Paizo knowing the pace of some of our games as part of the playtest. For example, my group plays every week, but we're just rounding out the first chapter of RotRL and we started when the Beta came out. This has got to be valuable information to the publisher in some way.

[veector]

toyrobots wrote:

Maybe it's worth Paizo knowing the pace of some of our games as part of the playtest. For example, my group plays every week, but we're just rounding out the first chapter of RotRL and we started when the Beta came out. This has got to be valuable information to the publisher in some way.

Wow... I'm not intending to say something hurtful, but that's REALLY slow.

[Stefan Hill]

I know this is stupidly late in the piece to be asking this but...

Will there be a compiled Errata for the entire Beta made available for a final check? I have this thing with typos... :)

I haven't seen (but only just started looking) anything about the page 194 of the beta, Spells, Arcane schools specifically. Two things I would love someone to clear up for me. The first should the table have an entry for "8th Level" allowing another 4th level spell? Also I think the text is a little vague about not doubling your 1st level chosen spell by taking a lower level spell. i.e. 1st level spell with always be level/2 per day and the others can be either 1 or 2 times per day.

And of course a big thanks to Jason and Paizo for making the game that v3.5 should have evolved into! But as Shakespeare said "What's in a name?".

Thanks in advanced,
S.

[hogarth]

Stefan Hill wrote:

I know this is stupidly late in the piece to be asking this but...

Will there be a compiled Errata for the entire Beta made available for a final check?

Not a chance. :)

Stefan Hill wrote:

I haven't seen (but only just started looking) anything about the page 194 of the beta, Spells, Arcane schools specifically. Two things I would love someone to clear up for me. The first should the table have an entry for "8th Level" allowing another 4th level spell?

No, a specialist gets a school ability at level 8 instead of a bonus spell.

[Benoist Poiré]

I've been mostly following the playtests from the sidelines, but I too wanted to just say a big "thank you" to Jason and the rest of the Paizo crew.

Thank you for keeping the OGL alive. Thank you for keeping Third Ed alive.

Thank you for allowing everyone to have a say in the playtests. This makes PRPG truly special.

I can't wait to get my hands on the final game. We're going to keep the flame going for a long, long time I hope, and have tons of fun through countless games in the process. Here's to Pathfinder! -BP