Hey folks -working up an encounter. Easy setup:
A hungry Roc gets surprise on players aboard a flying airship and attempts to dive down, snatch one and fly off during the initial surprise round. Since it is a surprise round, the Roc only gets a single standard action. Let's see what the Roc can get away with(all SRD):
Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.
It is diving, so could move up to 160' this round as a standard action.
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge.
As per charge:
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge (move+attack), but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed).
However, since the creature is diving, it CAN move double speed.
And:
Flyby attack: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
SO:
Am I right in saying that during the surprise round, the Roc can dive (as a single-action charge) 160' and get a single flyby attack as part of that movement? Basically, the roc gets a standard-action-only charge action, but can take the attack at any point of the move (thanks to flyby attack) and still gets double movement since it is diving?
CORRECT?
Thanks!
Fleece
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However, since the creature is diving, it CAN move double speed.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from. A dive works like a charge. When charging as a standard action, you can only move your speed. Why would diving be different? I see no reason for the restriction not to carry over.
Flyby attack: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Flyby attacks and dive attacks are mutually exclusive, because charging is a full-round action - you can't take move or standard actions while doing it (save for the ones specifically allowed by the charge itself, such as attacking). So nothing in a flyby attack functions during a dive - the trigger effect never comes into play.
However, since the creature is diving, it CAN move double speed.
The rules on this are not as clear as they could be, but I concur with you. Because upward aerial movement generally "costs" twice as much, and downward aerial speed is generally doubled, a diving attacker should be able to move four times its normal speed on a full-round charge, and two times its normal speed on a standard-action charge.
Am I right in saying that during the surprise round, the Roc can dive (as a single-action charge) 160' and get a single flyby attack as part of that movement? Basically, the roc gets a standard-action-only charge action, but can take the attack at any point of the move (thanks to flyby attack) and still gets double movement since it is diving?
Absolutely not. To benefit from Flyby Attack, you have to use a move action and a standard action. In a surprise round, you get only one of those.
The roc can dive up to 160 feet and make an attack during the surprise round, but it can't move (during the surprise round) after it makes its attack. To move away before its prey can react, it will have to win initiative.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that a roc can't really do what you want it to (swoop down, grab prey, and fly off before anyone can react) in any case. Its Snatch feat allows the roc to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, but once you're grappling with a creature, you have to use the "move the grapple" option to carry it off, which requires a standard action of its own.
So the way the roc would actually do it is: in the surprise round, the roc dives, attacking its chosen prey with a talon (getting a +2 bonus on its attack roll for the dive), and if it hits, using Snatch to start a grapple and establish a hold. Then, on the first full round of combat, the roc uses a standard action to "move the grapple" by winning an opposed grapple check and flying 40 feet (half its speed) away.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that a roc can't really do what you want it to (swoop down, grab prey, and fly off before anyone can react) in any case. Its Snatch feat allows the roc to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, but once you're grappling with a creature, you have to use the "move the grapple" option to carry it off, which requires a standard action of its own.
So the way the roc would actually do it is: in the surprise round, the roc dives, attacking its chosen prey with a talon (getting a +2 bonus on its attack roll for the dive), and if it hits, using Snatch to start a grapple and establish a hold. Then, on the first full round of combat, the roc uses a standard action to "move the grapple" by winning an opposed grapple check and flying 40 feet (half its speed) away.
Not quite.
The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. (Emphasis mine)
When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent's weight. (Emphasis mine)
So, the roc can just swoop in, snatch an opponent, and fly off in a single round. However, I agree that it cannot be done during a surprise round or during a charge due to the action types involved.
Good catch, Saern.
Good catch, Saern.
No problem. I've been pouring through the MM for creatures with Improved Grab recently, so this just kind of caught my attention.
Look again carefully, folks (and you KNOW I trust you guys!)
First off, there is only ONE action in SRD that specifically uses the term "dive," and that is a dive attack action. I think this is the source of confusion. The Flyby Attack feat specifically says it can be used during a dive, and a "dive" is, in fact, a "dive attack" -NOT a "move action dive," because the SRD never defines such a thing.
When SRD says dive, it only EVER refers to a "dive attack." (see below)
When it refers to double movement due to downward flying in an aerial move action, it is called "down speed" NOT a dive.
They are two totally separate actions/events using two very specific terms.
With me?
Here's the sequence of logic via SRD:
Surprise Round = one standard action
From Charge:
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed).
From Aerial Movement:
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.
From Aerial Movement:
Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.
From Flyby Attack:
When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
THEREFORE:
As per flyby attack feat, the roc can use a dive attack to move, attack and move again, AND the dive attack action has the special consideration, as per charge rules, of being able to sacrifice movement to turn the dive attack into a single standard or move action for surprise rounds. If the creature is moving down speed, this movement is doubled.
The confusion is in the SRD syntax here -flyby attack says "move ation (including a dive)" when, in fact, dive is a special attack/move action, just like a charge -NOT just "down speed." Again, I would argue that, by virtue of the term "dive" only appearing in, and being synonymous, with "dive attack," anywhere in the SRD, that the move/attack action referenced by the flyby attack feat is in fact meant to convey that the dive attack action may be utilize as part of that feat.
Reconsiderations? Clarifications?
You boys are good, you know?
SO, should the flyby attack feat read either:
"the creature can take a move action (including a dive ATTACK)"
or
"the creature can take a move action (including a DOWN SPEED movement)"
Accepting for purposes of argument your premise that all references to a "dive" are intended to be read as "dive attack," Flyby Attack would properly have to read: "the creature can take a move action (including a 'down speed' movement)," because you can't use a move action to make an attack.
If the intent were to allow movement before and after a diving charge, Flyby Attack would have to be written much more like Spring Attack or Ride-By Attack.
But frankly, I don't accept your premise. I read "dive" in this context to mean simply double-speed downward movement.
EDIT: FWIW, the "Rules of the Game" articles All About Movement (Part Four) and All About Movement (Part Five) pretty clearly use "dive" synonymously with down-speed movement.
Oh -I hear ya', Vegepygmy, but I don't think of it as a premise -I'm just taking the SRD's word for it...
You CAN use a move action to make an attack when it is combined under the special charge rules, which is what is at issue here. Those rules, including the dive variation, allow you to move and attack as one action, and that creates the only exception. The question is, did the writer of flyby attack account for that?
I read and read and read -"dive" is only ever used in reference to "dive attack" -it doesn't show up anywhere else, ESPECIALLY in aerial movement references, and the longer I use these rules, the more I see that such careful usage of terms is rarely an accident...
(This is for publication purposes, so I have to get it right!)
Fleece
Of course, 'ol Skip couldn't have just clarified the flyby attack feat for us while he was writing those articles, could he? Heh.
I'm still unsure. After reading ride-by-attack more closely, it allows just what we're talking about and is written much better, so I wonder if the writer's intent was to replicate that with the "including a dive" language -just because Skip interchanged them doesn't mean they did so when writing the rules. I still don't know. My hands are tied by OGL and SRD...
Of course, the alternative is to just NOT allow for a surprise round and do what I've described as part of the first round of combat, but MAN is that one hell of an introduction!
Oh -I hear ya', Vegepygmy, but I don't think of it as a premise -I'm just taking the SRD's word for it...
No, you're not just taking the SRD's word for it; you're reading something additional into the fact that the SRD only uses "dive" in the context of a dive attack. That's not the same as saying: "dive" = "dive attack."
You CAN use a move action to make an attack when it is combined under the special charge rules, which is what is at issue here. Those rules, including the dive variation, allow you to move and attack as one action...
But that one action is never a move action. It is either a full-round action or a standard action. It is incorrect to state, as you do here, that you can use a move action to make an attack.
I read and read and read -"dive" is only ever used in reference to "dive attack" -it doesn't show up anywhere else, ESPECIALLY in aerial movement references, and the longer I use these rules, the more I see that such careful usage of terms is rarely an accident...
I agree with you that game-defined terms are used carefully. The problem is that the critical game-defined term in this case is "move action," not "dive." :)
(This is for publication purposes, so I have to get it right!)
Good luck! I'm pretty sure that no matter which way you come down on it, someone is going to insist you got it wrong! ;)
You have to stop after a charge.
Flyby attack lets you take a standard action during a move action, a charge is a single action with a single purpose. You couldn't even achieve this with Spring Attack.
Understood.
Dive is also a single action with a single purpose, and the text of flyby attack feats say "including a dive."
Also, you could accomplish this with a ride-by-attack, which does us the great honor among all of these move-attack-move feats and specifically says this event is possible when you "use the charge action" in much the same way flyby attack says you can "take a move action (including a dive)."
I still think the matter rests of the intention of the word "dive" as used in the feat. Movement presumption or action presumption?
And folks - I GREATLY appreciate the input -I'm not trying to get away with something here or be argumentative just for the sake of it. Like I said -trying to get it right for the books!
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I read and read and read -"dive" is only ever used in reference to "dive attack" -it doesn't show up anywhere else, ESPECIALLY in aerial movement references, and the longer I use these rules, the more I see that such careful usage of terms is rarely an accident...
Searching d20srd.org shows that, while most of the references in the SRD to "diving" or "dive" are in fact references to dive attacks, this is not universally the case. Characters are described as performing a "dive" into water or using a "dive" to get under a closing portcullis. This suggests that the writers of the SRD were using dive in its colloquial, not mechanical, sense, so I think an argument that rests on equating "dive" with "dive attack" is faulty. When Flyby Attack mentions diving, I think it must be doing so in the sense of "rapid downward movement," not a dive attack.
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Also with Ride By Attack, another creature is doing the moving for you. And even with that feat, you need a full round to accomplish this action. It says you may move and attack as with the standard action version, and then move again. You're trying to fit a bit too much into a surprise round.
What if the PC's succeed their spot checks to see the Roc? What about the crew of the ship? I imagine that if anyone saw a roc that was within diving range the alarm would go out.