I can run the numbers for you on THF / TWF comparison if you want. (probably just re-post from my earlier stuff so I don't have to re-math it) TWF has higher DPR past the first few levels - especially when they can ignore Str while THF can't ignore Dex.
Sure, I'd be happy to look over your math. What was your baseline comparison? :)
I disagree--heavy armor is basically already Strength to AC.
my str 10 character with a mithral breastplate disagrees
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I can run the numbers for you on THF / TWF comparison if you want. (probably just re-post from my earlier stuff so I don't have to re-math it) TWF has higher DPR past the first few levels - especially when they can ignore Str while THF can't ignore Dex.Sure, I'd be happy to look over your math. What was your baseline comparison? :)
For example - for simplicity - a level 10 fighter with strength 24 or dex of 24/gloves of dueling/either a +3 two-handed or two +2 weapons (there are classes with higher static damage that do TWF better - but it's a good baseline example so that I'm not accused of cherry-picking a good TWF class etc) -
Greatsword (with PA) - +23/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 3 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 3 PA) for 2d6+28 damage each (3 weapon + 10 Str + 4 training + 2 spec + 9 PA).
Two sawtoothed sabres - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)
Rather obviously - the dex TWF has somewhat superior DPR. The accuracy is identical, and they do slightly more damage (8.6%), and the above is taking into account the higher cost of enchanting two weapons vs one. (That's why I chose level 10 - so that PA THF would be the same accuracy as TWF with a point lower enchantment. That way I don't have to worry about calculating 'official' DPR.)
In addition - I didn't include that the dex fighter's dex score would undoubtedly be higher than the str fighter's str score, as the str fighter can't ignore dex as the dex fighter can his strength.
Of note - TWF does have disadvantages (feat cost/DR issues etc). But the actual DPR difference only grows as you level further.
Not to mention - they'd have all of the secondary advantages of a high dex.
Finally - before someone mentions haste - while THF benefits more from haste - TWF benefits more from virtually any other buff. (Inspire courage etc.)
See, when I read that I think it's obvious that strength is coming out ahead. Let's see, on the dex build you've assumed Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sawtooth Sabre, Two Weapon fighting, Double Slice, and Improved Two Weapon Fighting. That's six feats the strength fighter doesn't need to take. Hell, a normal character with no bonus feats would only have five feats total at level 10.
Even so, assuming full attacks against an adjacent enemy the TWF fighter is pulling a DPR of 72. In the same situation the THF fighter is pulling a DPR of 65. Their RTK is identical at 2. If both fighters also gain a single AoO, THF pulls ahead to 101 v 92. That is of course assuming that the THF fighter is using his five free feats (-1 for PA) for skill focus: basketweaving.
Throw on Enlarge Person, a fauchard rather than a greatsword, and a fortuitous weapon rather than a generic +1. Now he'll be putting out a hell of a lot more hurt each round than the TWF fighter can, and he won't be completely neutered if his opponent is more than five feet away.
And that's without mentioning haste. :)
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Even so, assuming full attacks against an adjacent enemy the TWF fighter is pulling a DPR of 66. The THF fighter is pulling a DPR of 62. If we assume that the THF fighter spends one of his six free feats (-1 for power attack) on Weapon Specialization, he's at 66 DPR as well.
I included Specialization for the THF already. And you can't include Weapon Focus on the list required for the TWF build when every martial takes it anyway. Also - double-slice is debatable. (whether slashing grace requires it)
Plus - you're ignoring that the dex fighter's dex is going to be higher than the str fighter's str.
And while there are extra bonuses you can give to the THF - there are an equal # that you can give to the TWF. If not a fighter - they benefit more from Deliquescent gloves etc. Reduce Person (gain defenses instead of losing them vs enlarge) As I said - fighter certainly isn't the best TWF class.
If you include the 3PP dex to damage feat - try a TWF samurai on for size wielding a pair of wakizashi. They get specialization and challenge on every swing. By level 10 their class's static modifier would be 12 per attack instead of the figher's measly 6. (and don't have to use up an item/slot to get it up that high) No question whether TWF or THF would gain more advantage from that.
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Throw on Enlarge Person, a fauchard rather than a greatsword, and a fortuitous weapon rather than a generic +1. Now he'll be putting out a hell of a lot more hurt each round than the TWF fighter can, and he won't be completely neutered if his opponent is more than five feet away.
Now you're comparing combat styles instead of str vs dex. And with that style - he'd need a base dex of at least 14 to even be able to take advantage of enlarge & fortuitous at all, thereby making the build rather MAD. The dex build can dump str entirely with very little negative effect unless his GM wants to make a point of it by spamming shadows.
Yeah, I caught that mistake but apparently not in time - I was editing my post while you replied. :)
Now you're comparing combat styles instead of str vs dex.
Throw on Enlarge Person, a fauchard rather than a greatsword, and a fortuitous weapon rather than a generic +1. Now he'll be putting out a hell of a lot more hurt each round than the TWF fighter can, and he won't be completely neutered if his opponent is more than five feet away.
I don't mean to be rude, but wasn't that what you did when you started off by assuming TWF v THF? Leveraging size increases and reach heavily rewards strength users over dex users much like how TWF heavily rewards dex users over characters who split their stats between strength and dexterity. It seems odd not to take that into consideration when comparing strength and dexterity.
I can run the numbers for you on THF / TWF comparison if you want. (probably just re-post from my earlier stuff so I don't have to re-math it) TWF has higher DPR past the first few levels - especially when they can ignore Str while THF can't ignore Dex.Sure, I'd be happy to look over your math. What was your baseline comparison? :)For example - for simplicity - a level 10 fighter with strength 24 or dex of 24/gloves of dueling/either a +3 two-handed or two +2 weapons (there are classes with higher static damage that do TWF better - but it's a good baseline example so that I'm not accused of cherry-picking a good TWF class etc) -
Greatsword (with PA) - +23/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Str + 3 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 3 PA) for 2d6+28 damage each (3 weapon + 10 Str + 4 training + 2 spec + 9 PA).
Two sawtoothed sabres - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)
Rather obviously - the dex TWF has somewhat superior DPR. The accuracy is identical, and they do slightly more damage (8.6%), and the above is taking into account the higher cost of enchanting two weapons vs one. (That's why I chose level 10 - so that PA THF would be the same accuracy as TWF with a point lower enchantment. That way I don't have to worry about calculating 'official' DPR.)
In addition - I didn't include that the dex fighter's dex score would undoubtedly be higher than the str fighter's str score, as the str fighter can't ignore dex as the dex fighter can his strength.
Of note - TWF does have disadvantages (feat cost/DR issues etc). But the actual DPR difference only grows as you level further.
Not to mention - they'd have all of the secondary advantages of a high dex.
Finally - before someone mentions haste - while THF benefits more from haste - TWF benefits more from virtually any other buff. (Inspire courage etc.)
Dex fighter:
Human fighter 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 18, flat-footed 11 (+7 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +5 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, light blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +9; CMD 30 (34 vs. disarm, 34 vs. sunder)
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), Greater Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Weapon Specialization (sawtooth sabre)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 sawtooth sabre, +2 sawtooth sabre, belt of incredible dexterity +4, gloves of dueling, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)
Str fighter:
Str fighter
Human fighter 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +5 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 fauchard +19/+14 (1d10+24/15-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, light blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +14; CMD 27 (31 vs. disarm, 31 vs. sunder)
Feats Devastating Strike[UC], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fauchard), Greater Weapon Focus (fauchard), Improved Critical (fauchard), Iron Will, Power Attack, Staggering Blow, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (fauchard), Weapon Specialization (fauchard)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +3 fauchard, belt of giant strength +4, gloves of dueling, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Devastating Strike Deal extra damage when using Vital Strike bonus
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Staggering Blow (1/round, DC 15) Take -2 on Vital Strike to stagger foe for 1 round.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Melee +3 fauchard +19/+14 (1d10+24/15-20)
Str fighter vital strike
Human fighter 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +5 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 fauchard +19 (2d10+26/15-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, light blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +14; CMD 27 (31 vs. disarm, 31 vs. sunder)
Feats Devastating Strike[UC], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fauchard), Greater Weapon Focus (fauchard), Improved Critical (fauchard), Iron Will, Power Attack, Staggering Blow, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (fauchard), Weapon Specialization (fauchard)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +3 fauchard, belt of giant strength +4, gloves of dueling, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Devastating Strike Deal extra damage when using Vital Strike bonus
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Staggering Blow (1/round, DC 15) Take -2 on Vital Strike to stagger foe for 1 round.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Melee +3 fauchard +19 (2d10+26/15-20)
These were using 20 point buy - just the gear listed (gloves of dueling and weapon) both with power attack running - one had a belt of dex the other str.
I don't know how to do the dpr calcs...
*edit*
I did use an exotic weapon for the 2h str fighter - both took improved critical - the STr fighter has 2 feats left to play with over the dex fighter as is.
both with power attack running -TWF doesn't actually benefit from PA if you've got decent static damage. And the dex fighter shouldn't have the Str for it anyway.
All things being equal I gave the Dex fighter the points for power attack - because it adds to damage and where else was I going to put points? Wisdom? I guess - but I wanted the comparison to be even - at a 20 point build the dex fighter (with the same gear) has enough points to take power attack if they want.
But... without power attack...
Human fighter 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 18, flat-footed 11 (+7 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +6 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+9/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+9/17-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, light blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 29 (33 vs. disarm, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), Greater Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Weapon Specialization (sawtooth sabre), Weapon Versatility
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 sawtooth sabre, +2 sawtooth sabre, belt of incredible dexterity +4, gloves of dueling, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Versatility Weapon w/ Weapon Focus: shift grip to alter damage to B/P/S (free act.).
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+9/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+9/17-20)
vs...
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)
on a full attack you are trading +2 to hit for 26 damage if all attacks hit.
Two sawtoothed sabres - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)
How are you getting +7 Str damage without power attack? Are you trying to indicate that the fighter has a 24 in Str *and* Dex at the same time?
How?
A 20 point buy doesn't let a level 10 fighter get 24's in both stats with WBL guidelines as far as I could tell.
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Two sawtoothed sabres - +23/+23/+18/+18 (10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 weapon + 4 training + 2 focus - 2 TWF) for 1d8+15 damage each (2 weapon + 7 Str + 4 training + 2 spec)
How are you getting +7 Str damage without power attack? Are you trying to indicate that the fighter has a 24 in Str *and* Dex at the same time?
How?
I'm not - typo on my part. (missed chaging after copy-paste) I meant Dex.
But... without power attack...
** spoiler omitted **...Why is the damage only +9? It should be +7 from dex, +2 from weapon, +4 from training, +2 from specialization for a +15 total.
In addition - by level 10 PA is -3, not -2.
Lets start over - are you using a dex to damage feat as a comparison? I can do that to - give me a sec...
I actually agree that I don't mind Dex to damage having opportunity cost, that being two feats (Weapon Finesse + one of the Dex to damage feats). What personally drives me nuts is that Dex to damage isn't playable from level 1 without Human, since Dervish Dance requires 2 ranks in Dance and Slashing Grace/Fencing Grace requires Weapon Focus as well as Weapon Finesse.
Is that just me or does that bother anyone else as well?
I would like for it to be possible, but it doesn't bother me since I know the resources are not there to make it happen. I have never used drawbacks/flaws but if a GM allows those I guess that might work, assuming they grant feats that is.
Dex fighter - dex to damage - 2wf
Human fighter 10
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 18, flat-footed 11 (+7 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 shield)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +4 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+15/17-20), +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+15/17-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +4, light blades +3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 29 (33 vs. disarm, 33 vs. sunder)
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), Greater Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Improved Critical (sawtooth sabre), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (sawtooth sabre), Weapon Specialization (sawtooth sabre)
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 sawtooth sabre, +2 sawtooth sabre, belt of incredible dexterity +4, gloves of dueling, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Here I left one feat out and activated dex to damage assuming it cost a feat to do so. I traded Iron Will for weapon finesse
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +17/+12 (1d8+15/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+15/17-20)
*edit* - offhand was +2 higher than it should have been - I frequently forget to group attacks in hero lab :(
You probably meant "not optimized" for two levels, but if you really meant "useless" you're exaggerating, and if you don't see the wisdom in 'paying' for the privilege to use Dex to damage in the form of waiting two levels, then don't: from now on only play characters that have high STR and can dish lots of hurt right from level 1. You *have* a choice.So, in other words, you mean a Swashbuckler is essentially the same as an NPC class for levels 1 to 2 and you're okay with that, because universal options ensures people can do the bare minimum.
The thing is that classes already pay for Dex to damage; you burn two feats and your weapon selection is limited down. And that's okay. The real problem I have is, when, I have to essentially ignore my entire class to contribute at all at levels 1-2 and rely on universal options.
Here's a question: If a player new to Pathfinder joins your game and says "I want to play a piratey swashbuckling scoundrel" and you show him the Swashbuckler and he agrees. Then you tell him that you do no damage with their main style for levels 1-2, do you think he'll find that fun? Do you think that your explanation that "it's a payment for Dex to damage" will enrich their gameplay?
It will after I explain to them how the game works, and different things come online at different times. Most players I have introduced understand the concept of "My character is not that good yet".
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It will after I explain to them how the game works, and different things come online at different times. Most players I have introduced understand the concept of "My character is not that good yet".You probably meant "not optimized" for two levels, but if you really meant "useless" you're exaggerating, and if you don't see the wisdom in 'paying' for the privilege to use Dex to damage in the form of waiting two levels, then don't: from now on only play characters that have high STR and can dish lots of hurt right from level 1. You *have* a choice.So, in other words, you mean a Swashbuckler is essentially the same as an NPC class for levels 1 to 2 and you're okay with that, because universal options ensures people can do the bare minimum.
The thing is that classes already pay for Dex to damage; you burn two feats and your weapon selection is limited down. And that's okay. The real problem I have is, when, I have to essentially ignore my entire class to contribute at all at levels 1-2 and rely on universal options.
Here's a question: If a player new to Pathfinder joins your game and says "I want to play a piratey swashbuckling scoundrel" and you show him the Swashbuckler and he agrees. Then you tell him that you do no damage with their main style for levels 1-2, do you think he'll find that fun? Do you think that your explanation that "it's a payment for Dex to damage" will enrich their gameplay?
That - or just have him play a human so he CAN get it at level 1.
I don't see how it's any different from archery - where an elf ranger doesn't have either precise shot or rapid shot at level 1.
I came up with..
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)
DPR 50.54
edit: in standby mode
Str fighter:
Melee +3 fauchard +19/+14 (1d10+24/15-20)
DPR 51.77
edit: why don't the swords have the same attack bonus
It will after I explain to them how the game works, and different things come online at different times. Most players I have introduced understand the concept of "My character is not that good yet".You probably meant "not optimized" for two levels, but if you really meant "useless" you're exaggerating, and if you don't see the wisdom in 'paying' for the privilege to use Dex to damage in the form of waiting two levels, then don't: from now on only play characters that have high STR and can dish lots of hurt right from level 1. You *have* a choice.So, in other words, you mean a Swashbuckler is essentially the same as an NPC class for levels 1 to 2 and you're okay with that, because universal options ensures people can do the bare minimum.
The thing is that classes already pay for Dex to damage; you burn two feats and your weapon selection is limited down. And that's okay. The real problem I have is, when, I have to essentially ignore my entire class to contribute at all at levels 1-2 and rely on universal options.
Here's a question: If a player new to Pathfinder joins your game and says "I want to play a piratey swashbuckling scoundrel" and you show him the Swashbuckler and he agrees. Then you tell him that you do no damage with their main style for levels 1-2, do you think he'll find that fun? Do you think that your explanation that "it's a payment for Dex to damage" will enrich their gameplay?
That - or just have him play a human so he CAN get it at level 1.
I don't see how it's any different from archery - where an elf ranger doesn't have either precise shot or rapid shot at level 1.
Also possible, but I just wanted to point out that the situation was not as bad as it was made out to be. Explaining how the game works tends to solve most problems for people.
How is the base only 1d8+10? It should be 1d8+15 b4 PA.I came up with..
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)DPR 50.54
I dont know. I only copied and pasted. I noticed another change has one weapon having a higher to hit, and I was about to ask why. If they are the same weapon and using the same feats then things should be the same.
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I dont know. I only copied and pasted. I noticed another change has one weapon having a higher to hit, and I was about to ask why. If they are the same weapon and using the same feats then things should be the same.How is the base only 1d8+10? It should be 1d8+15 b4 PA.I came up with..
Melee +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+16/17-20) or
. . +2 sawtooth sabre +15/+10 (1d8+13/17-20)DPR 50.54
Fair enough. I already hassled the original poster about it anyway.
Because they are both heavy blades...?
*edit*
actually I'm not sure - artifact of hero lab is my guess... time to file another bug report :P
TWF fighter
TWF
Attack:
BAB 10
Dex 7
Feats 2
class features +4
Weapons 2
25 before TWF
23/18 on both weapons after TWF
damage:
weapon base 4.5
weapon magic 2
dex 7
feats 4
class features 4
21.5 assuming we are assuming dex is applied to both weapons.
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Str Fighter
Attack:
BAB 10
str 7
Feats 2
class features +4
Weapons 3
26 before PA
23 after PA
damage:
weapon base 5.5
weapon magic 3
str 10
feats 4
class features 4
26.5 before PA
35.5 after PA.
This is not DPR listed, but average weapon damage, and the attack bonuses I came up with.
This is just a base numbers check before I run DPR.
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Of course the DEX route should entail a higher cost. The build I use (Aldori Swordlord) significantly outclasses a STR build of equal level. If you were to take away the feat disadvantage then it would totally dominate. At 1st and 2nd level, I am slightly disadvantaged, but by 3rd I am surpassing them both in and out of combat (mainly because the build has INT as its secondary stat thus giving more access to skills). In addition, since I am not restricted to just one handing my sword, I get all of the same benefits as a STR fighter in regards to Power Attack so all I am losing is the extra .5 of my stat. However, the abilities make up for that.
Don't even get me started with Swashbuckler :)
No but here is my biggest curiosity...
The Dex build has 2 +2 weapons. Given the gear they both have (almost none) they are within a couple k in gold of each other.
The hypothetical dex build as it stands is +17 to hit ... vs +19 for the THF.
So what I take his +3 falachard and turn it into a +1 corrosive burst.
he has a better crit range and can afford the drop in to hit. So why not? Wouldn't the +1d6/1d10 each hit bring him up that much more? Or he could save his cash on the weapon and spend it on other things...
DPR for two-hander 78.46
but let's give the two-hander a falcata also, just as an experiment
82.11
DPR for TWF 87.72
So even with the best DPR melee weapon TWF it still ahead, granted the TWF chain takes up a decent amount of feats itself.
No but here is my biggest curiosity...
The Dex build has 2 +2 weapons. Given the gear they both have (almost none) they are within a couple k in gold of each other.
The hypothetical dex build as it stands is +17 to hit ... vs +19 for the THF.
So what I take his +3 falachard and turn it into a +1 corrosive burst.
he has a better crit range and can afford the drop in to hit. So why not? Wouldn't the +1d6/1d10 each hit bring him up that much more? Or he could save his cash on the weapon and spend it on other things...
If I drop a +1 to add something elemental(corrosive) that does 1d6 the DPR goes up to 79.78 for the fauchard.
DPR for two-hander 78.46
but let's give the two-hander a falcata also, just as an experiment
82.11DPR for TWF 87.72
So even with the best DPR melee weapon TWF it still ahead, granted the TWF chain takes up a decent amount of feats itself.
I'll be honest - that's not what I figured would happen. Weapon Finesse, 'Deadly Dexterity', Two Weapon fighting, Improved two weapon fighting - given that the THF will always take power attack - is a 3 feat difference big enough to let dex compete with Str?
I'm not so sure
DPR for two-hander 78.46
but let's give the two-hander a falcata also, just as an experiment
82.11DPR for TWF 87.72
So even with the best DPR melee weapon TWF it still ahead, granted the TWF chain takes up a decent amount of feats itself.
I'll be honest - that's not what I figured would happen. Weapon Finesse, 'Deadly Dexterity', Two Weapon fighting, Improved two weapon fighting - given that the THF will always take power attack - is a 3 feat difference big enough to let dex compete with Str?
I'm not so sure
The difference gets bigger later on. If haste is in play things swing back over to the two-handers direction because he will more likely hit, but not every group plays like that. However at some point, which varies by group the TWF just stays ahead, but by then the feat investment has grown to GTWF, and two-weapon rend.
Now you have a 5 feat difference, and the TWF'er is paying more for weapons.|
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You probably meant "not optimized" for two levels, but if you really meant "useless" you're exaggerating, and if you don't see the wisdom in 'paying' for the privilege to use Dex to damage in the form of waiting two levels, then don't: from now on only play characters that have high STR and can dish lots of hurt right from level 1. You *have* a choice.So, in other words, you mean a Swashbuckler is essentially the same as an NPC class for levels 1 to 2 and you're okay with that, because universal options ensures people can do the bare minimum.
The thing is that classes already pay for Dex to damage; you burn two feats and your weapon selection is limited down. And that's okay. The real problem I have is, when, I have to essentially ignore my entire class to contribute at all at levels 1-2 and rely on universal options.
Here's a question: If a player new to Pathfinder joins your game and says "I want to play a piratey swashbuckling scoundrel" and you show him the Swashbuckler and he agrees. Then you tell him that you do no damage with their main style for levels 1-2, do you think he'll find that fun? Do you think that your explanation that "it's a payment for Dex to damage" will enrich their gameplay?
It might, or might not, depending on the individual. If he's the type of player who wants everything at level 1, then he'll probably not play a wizard! LOL
If he does not find it fun for level 1-2 he can play something entirely different, then at level 3, retrain level 1-2 back to Swashbuckler and thus avoid this entire suffering?
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For the same reason the Unchained Monk has a bad Will save...
Because Paizo is pretty bad at game balance and irrationally afraid of certain game options, even though they wouldn't break anything... Specially considering the shenanigans casters have been able to pull for years now.
What happens if you don't want to always be accused of being an assassin of the mantis god? What if you're in a setting without the mantis god and these very specifc weapons don't exist? Show me how good dex to damage is without this one specific weapon, which may in fact be the problem piece here, rather than the Dex part.
What if you find twf aesthetically displeasing (I do)? What if you actually had the strength fighter USE those spare feats to help his dpr? What about including a few typical buffs, like Enlarge Person? Modt casters don't even bother knowing Reduce Person.
And weapon focus is not something all martials take. In my experience, nobody takes it unless they must as a prereq or because they literally can't find anything else worth taking that fits.
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So, to those insisting that Strength get some more benefits...
Let's say you could have two feats. Each can add Strength to any one thing Dex does, replacing it outright. What do you go for?
Dial it back, say you had one feat. What do you go for?
I'm honestly curious.
Will saves.
Mighty Muscles
Your faith in your mighty muscles allows you to shrug off any attacks directed at your psyche.
Benefit: You may use your Strength modifier in place of your Wisdom modifier when calculating Will saves.
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What happens if you don't want to always be accused of being an assassin of the mantis god? What if you're in a setting without the mantis god and these very specifc weapons don't exist? Show me how good dex to damage is without this one specific weapon, which may in fact be the problem piece here, rather than the Dex part.
What if you want to change the rules of the game because you've been proven wrong?
Removing legal options from the game has shifted the conversation to houserules and away from normal game balance.
You can do whatever you want for your home game. But if you're changing rules in said home game - you can't use it as an example of game balance in a rules discussion.
What if you find twf aesthetically displeasing (I do)?
What if I want using a sword in my teeth to be combat effective?
Aesthetics aren't a game balance issue in either case.
What happens if you don't want to always be accused of being an assassin of the mantis god? What if you're in a setting without the mantis god and these very specifc weapons don't exist? Show me how good dex to damage is without this one specific weapon, which may in fact be the problem piece here, rather than the Dex part.
What if you find twf aesthetically displeasing (I do)? What if you actually had the strength fighter USE those spare feats to help his dpr?
And weapon focus is not something all martials take. In my experience, nobody takes it unless they must as a prereq or because they literally can't find anything else worth taking that fits.
That weapon is not the issue. STR-Ranger, another poster here was the one that helped me notice the how good TWF was for certain classes. Even when using strength based TWF builds, TWF can pull ahead. However, even with most str based TWF builds you have to split stats between str and dex. That leads to less accuracy unless you sacrifice another stat.
Certain class features such as a paladin's smite the ranger's favored enemy bonus, and the slayer studied target also pull TWF ahead.Short version the weapon is the least of the issues here. He would have been better off with kukris, and actually saved himself a feat. That extra crit range is worth more than the 1d8 from the sawtooth sabre when it comes to DPR.
Everytime I have seen dex to damage it was on a build that made good use of it, such as a magus.
PS: I am not against dex to damage, but it should have some cost associated with it.
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Short version the weapon is the least of the issues here. He would have been better off with kukris, and actually saved himself a feat. That extra crit range is worth more than the 1d8 from the sawtooth sabre when it comes to DPR.
I initially used sawtooth sabres as it's the only way to make it work with Paizo only core rules. I didn't actually stat it out and assumed people realized the Swash dip involved. (I have a bad habit of thinking people know how my brain works.)
If you allow Deadly Agility and/or Effortless Lace (TWF falcattas anyone?) - it becomes a bigger difference and easier to pull off.
What happens if you don't want to always be accused of being an assassin of the mantis god? What if you're in a setting without the mantis god and these very specifc weapons don't exist? Show me how good dex to damage is without this one specific weapon, which may in fact be the problem piece here, rather than the Dex part.
What if you find twf aesthetically displeasing (I do)? What if you actually had the strength fighter USE those spare feats to help his dpr? What about including a few typical buffs, like Enlarge Person? Modt casters don't even bother knowing Reduce Person.
And weapon focus is not something all martials take. In my experience, nobody takes it unless they must as a prereq or because they literally can't find anything else worth taking that fits.
Sawtooth saber - heavy blade - 1d8 19-20/x2
Other weapons that work without changing the math (just the feat):
Temple sword: 1d8 19-20/x2
Urumi : 1d8 19-20/x2
Rhoka sword: 1d8 18-20/x2 (this would be better honestly)
Kopesh: 1d8 19-20/x2
katana: 1d8 19-20/x2
great terbutje: 1d10 19-20/x2 (better)
Falcata: 1d8 19-20/x3
Aldori dueling sword: 1d8 19-20/x2
Bastard sword (1h): 1d10 19-20/x2
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Here's a question: If a player new to Pathfinder joins your game and says "I want to play a piratey swashbuckling scoundrel" and you show him the Swashbuckler and he agrees. Then you tell him that you do no damage with their main style for levels 1-2, do you think he'll find that fun? Do you think that your explanation that "it's a payment for Dex to damage" will enrich their gameplay?It might, or might not, depending on the individual. If he's the type of player who wants everything at level 1, then he'll probably not play a wizard! LOL
If he does not find it fun for level 1-2 he can play something entirely different, then at level 3, retrain level 1-2 back to Swashbuckler and thus avoid this entire suffering?
Or he could build to get dex -> dmg at level one.
A) Human Swashbuckler with Wpn Foc and Fencing Grace
B) <race> Inspired Blade Swashbuckler with Fencing Grace.
honestly I don't mind waiting for level 3 for dex to damage with a rogue... i think it's great! if you can do it at level 1, good for you, but it wouldn't break my fun if I had to wait a little... i'm weird that way.
I think taking away the bab +1 prequsite from weapon finesse was a good move but i dont think we need to go further, to please the dex crowd:)
Short version the weapon is the least of the issues here. He would have been better off with kukris, and actually saved himself a feat. That extra crit range is worth more than the 1d8 from the sawtooth sabre when it comes to DPR.I initially used sawtooth sabres as it's the only way to make it work with Paizo only core rules. I didn't actually stat it out and assumed people realized the Swash dip involved. (I have a bad habit of thinking people know how my brain works.)
If you allow Deadly Agility and/or Effortless Lace (TWF falcattas anyone?) - it becomes a bigger difference and easier to pull off.
I agree that this is the only weapon that works with the current rules, but mplindustries is trying to justify dex to damage as a whole so I was applying the same benefit to another weapon.
What if you want to change the rules of the game because you've been proven wrong?
Wait just a second here--I didn't change the rules at all. I simply mentioned the setting. RPGs have settings. Having a setting is not a houserule. In Golarion, it was my understanding that sawtooth sabers are only found in the hands of red mantis assassins. In almost any other setting, I would be unlikely to include them.
Then, I asked about common buff spells, which I see was ignored. I have never encountered a level 10 party without Haste (or Blessing of Fervor) and Enlarge Person. Oh, and the extra feats. Furious Focus, maybe? I'm sure there are others.
What if you find twf aesthetically displeasing (I do)?What if I want using a sword in my teeth to be combat effective?
Aesthetics aren't a game balance issue in either case.
My point, which either did not come across or was ignored, was that, it seems your argument is now, "Dex to damage needs to wait through 3 levels/feats because a single, specific build using a single, specific weapon, is slightly stronger in ideal situations."
And for the record, trust me, I'm impressed that TWF isn't horrible--I appreciate that fact, actually. But that doesn't change the point that Dex to damage takes too long to pull off, and only hurts lower level characters for no apparent reason. Let's take the Unchained Rogue. How would it affect your build if Dex to damage was attainable for a single finesse weapon (i.e. not sawtooth sabers, since they're not finesseable without Swashbuckler level AND slashing grace) at level 1? A level dip in Rogue would just hurt that build, put them further behind in accuracy, and offer basically nothing except some skill points and Reflex saves (which matters very little) in return.
That weapon is not the issue. STR-Ranger, another poster here was the one that helped me notice the how good TWF was for certain classes.
Yes, but they are literally the only weapons in the game that both get Dex to damage from Slashing Grace and only give you a -2 penalty in the offhand. Everything else would hurt you accuracy or force you to go with a +1 Agile weapon instead of a +2 weapon, hurting both accuracy and damage. So, no, I kind of think the weapon is an issue here.
Maybe not the only issue, and I am impressed in general with how far TWF has come from the days of being a total joke, but I still don't think Dex to damage "broke" that build. As you said, it's good with Strength, too.
Short version the weapon is the least of the issues here. He would have been better off with kukris, and actually saved himself a feat.
It wouldn't work without some errata or Agile Kukris.
If you allow Deadly Agility and/or Effortless Lace (TWF falcattas anyone?) - it becomes a bigger difference and easier to pull off.
Ah, Effortless Lace. That's a great point. Ok, so, Dex to damage costs a lot because of...Sawtooth Sabers and Effortless Laces? Really?
Other weapons that work without changing the math (just the feat):
Temple sword: 1d8 19-20/x2
Urumi : 1d8 19-20/x2
Rhoka sword: 1d8 18-20/x2 (this would be better honestly)
Kopesh: 1d8 19-20/x2
katana: 1d8 19-20/x2
great terbutje: 1d10 19-20/x2 (better)
Falcata: 1d8 19-20/x3
Aldori dueling sword: 1d8 19-20/x2
Bastard sword (1h): 1d10 19-20/x2
None of those work because they'd all take a -4 to hit with TWF instead of -2.
I think taking away the bab +1 prequsite from weapon finesse was a good move but i dont think we need to go further, to please the dex crowd:)
For the record, I am not a member of the "Dex Crowd." My preference would be absolutely no Dex to damage. I only object to valid options buried by pre-reqs that make the game less fun because, say, pure Dex Rogues are useless in combat for 2 levels (Whirling Dervish Swashbucklers for 3). Or because, say, a mostly casty Bard that just wants to contribute at all in melee sometimes has to spend their first 3 feats on doing so, losing out on all the normal Bard stuff (like Lingering Performance).
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I agree that this is the only weapon that works with the current rules, but mplindustries is trying to justify dex to damage as a whole so I was applying the same benefit to another weapon.
Right.
In my initial example I was proving that even with the current hurdles - it's already a very potent combat style.
My intended implication is was that removing the hurdles was a bad idea - as you'd gain all of the benefits without the current costs. (I really need to learn to explain what's going though my head. Or not... it might scare people.)
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Having a setting is not a houserule.
Removing legal game options is generally considered a houserule.
And from what I understand - while sawtoothed sabres were originally a Red Mantis Assasin weapon - and they all use them - they actually encourage others to use them as well. Otherwise Red Mantis Assaisins would be rather easy to spot.
@mpl
Dex to hit and damage is no little thing even if the bard is mostly a caster. I blame the min/max crowd for making us think that you can only contribute in mele if you can kill a CR APL dude in 3 rounds. If the bard want to be casti and have a high dex and be worth somthing in melee i dont mind him paying a few feats. He can get str as secondary stat and be good from level 1.
If he want to be dex based and be a caster bard he will be fine with dex to hit from level 1 and getting the rest later. Just like a figther that want to contribute in buffing need a decent cha and cant get battle cry until level 5.