Please, explain to me why Dex to damage costs so much in terms of character resources

[Charon's Little Helper]

Kalindlara wrote:

What if easy Dex-to-damage options just had text preventing them from being used easily with Two-Weapon Fighting?

Then people who wanted to be competent could do so, and Two-Weapon Fighting would be where it used to be.

I'd be for it - though there should still be costs involved. (Though Dervish Dance is still OP for a magus as - like TWF builds - they have no disadvantage to the style.)

But - it's not gonna happen outside of houserules.

My guess is that was the original idea beind one-handed only weapons - they just forgot about the Sawtoothed Sabre and then a companion book came out with Effortless Lace.

[Kalindlara]

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

[Cap. Darling]

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

I would make dex to(precision) damage a feat. That way being both strong and dexterious would be a good thing as opposed to wastefull like it is now. It would most likely not be more than +4 more on precision damage for high level str guys. And likely no more on high level dex dudes.

I think i May try this next time i am GM.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

I would make dex to(precision) damage a feat. That way being both strong and dexterious would be a good thing as opposed to wastefull like it is now. It would most likely not be more than +4 more on precision damage for high level str guys. And likely no more on high level dex dudes.

I think i May try this next time i am GM.

If they're added together - it'd be extremely OP. Most high level Str characters have a dex of at least 16+ just for AC, often considerably more (with this feat available they'd push it higher), so this feat would be at least +3 damage. +3 damage is too good for a feat, even with the precision limitation. (+2 with specialization limited to a single weapon is a very good feat - and is therefore limited to a few classes)

[Shisumo]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

I would make dex to(precision) damage a feat. That way being both strong and dexterious would be a good thing as opposed to wastefull like it is now. It would most likely not be more than +4 more on precision damage for high level str guys. And likely no more on high level dex dudes.

I think i May try this next time i am GM.

I've argued for something like this for awhile. My preferred solution was a feat that allowed +1/2 Dex bonus to damage while using a weapon with Weapon Finesse - doesn't allow you to dump Strength, but does mean you can focus primarily on Dex and maintain near-parity with Strength users (Dex 18, Str 14 does as much damage as Str 18 for one-handed use, and almost as much for two-handed - but Str 7, Dex 18 just results in a +0 total damage bonus, not ideal).

[Chess Pwn]

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

Well, if you did this and then gave people stackable DR/- equal to like half or a third their STR mod.

[Cap. Darling]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

I would make dex to(precision) damage a feat. That way being both strong and dexterious would be a good thing as opposed to wastefull like it is now. It would most likely not be more than +4 more on precision damage for high level str guys. And likely no more on high level dex dudes.

I think i May try this next time i am GM.

If they're added together - it'd be extremely OP. Most high level Str characters have a dex of at least 16+ just for AC, often considerably more (with this feat available they'd push it higher), so this feat would be at least +3 damage. +3 damage is too good for a feat, even with the precision limitation. (+2 with specialization limited to a single weapon is a very good feat - and is therefore limited to a few classes)

yes it looks a little good. I will keep the thinking hat on.

[kBro]

I had toyed around with the idea of DEX as precision damage in addition to STR with finessable weapons, under the rule that everyone can use finessable weapons with DEX to attack, and when using a finessable weapon (either with STR or DEX to attack) you add your DEX as precision damage. To check if this makes finesse weapons simply better than using non-finesse, I wrote a program to calculate the DPR of all weapon damage dice options for all weapon types. From that, I came to an interesting conclusion :

Even with weapon finesse free and DEX added to damage, STR still had the highest DPR. This is due to a number of reasons. First, the number of weapons you can use if you are a STR fighter is significantly larger than weapons you can finesse, and those weapons all have much larger damage dice than the finesse weapons. This results in finesse weapons, while allowing the addition of DEX to damage, still only matching and rarely passing normal weapons because of superior damage dice. Another thing with this rule is large crit ranges benefit STR more than DEX, because DEX is added as precision damage. The precision damage condition also holds back DEX due to conditions that prevent precision damage from being applied, like fortification effects, concealment, and flat immunity.

As an example, take two level 10 Warriors. Take one with 20 STR, 13 DEX, wielding a greatsword, and wearing full plate. Take one with 13 STR, 20 DEX, wielding two shortswords, and wearing studded leather. Each warrior has masterwork weapons and armor.
The STR Warrior has 20 AC, and swings his greatsword at +16/+11 for 2d6+7, or +13/+8 for 2d6+16 when power attacking. His DPR against AC 24 is 16.17, or 18.975 when power attacking.
The DEX Warrior has 18 AC, and uses two weapon fighting, swinging his short swords at +14/+11 for 1d6+1+5 and 1d6+0+5, or +11/+6 for 1d6+7+5 and 1d6+3+5. His DPR against AC 24 is 15.98, or 15.785 when power attacking.

If the two warriors were to square off, the STR warrior would win because he has higher AC and higher DPR. The STR warrior has all weapons available to him to use effectively, while the DEX warrior is limited to finessable weapons only. Assuming the two warriors use the same amount of resources to benefit themselves, the STR warrior still pulls remains ahead because additional hit change and crit range benefit him more. The only time the DEX warrior passes the STR warrior is by spending double the resources to have his weapons enchanted at the same level as the STR warrior, and even then it's only by a very small margin.

If the argument is DEX to Damage should cost more because it's superior to STR, I have to disagree. Even adding DEX on top of STR for free does not surpass STR, but only evens the playing field so that a DEX fighter can compete with a STR fighter in combat.

[Errant Mercenary]

I was happy with Dex as precision. It meant that I could chuck encounters at the party and know for a fact that the STR character shone brighter than the Dex. Conversely it was very easy to do the reverse (touch AC, reflex, targetting enemies).

About TWF if it really is a problem, have dex to damage trigger once per attack batch, so once for every base attack (and haste) but not for twf attacks. This keeps it relevant for rider modifiers (cavalier challenge, etc) and keeping power in check. If you think its too harsh, consider ITWF allow to add Dex again. Not my best solution but seems everyone's ideas of what works varies.

[Riuken]

My vote would be for a finesse feat chain like this:

Weapon Finesse: dex to hit with a certain set of weapons (same as current)
Improved Weapon Finesse: dex to damage with the same weapon set, but only if you have a free hand
Two-Weapon Finesse: You can apply Improved Weapon Finesse to your main hand weapon with a finessable weapon in your off-hand

[Zombie Ninja]

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

[Arachnofiend]

Zombie Ninja wrote:

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

*Investigator chuckling evilly in the background*

[mplindustries]

Zombie Ninja wrote:

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

At least a quarter of the characters I saw in 3.5 had 3 levels of Swashbuckler and all 5 of Invisible Blade for the Int to AC and damage. I miss it.

Frankly, I miss a lot of the old "X to Y" feats and class features. Pathfinder seems to have a serious hard on for Wisdom, and for whatever reason, I hate the stat. There was a pair of 3.5 feats to replace Monk's Wisdom to AC with either Int to AC or Cha to AC. I think 3/4 of my 3.5 characters took one of those feats at some point.

[Deadmanwalking]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Zombie Ninja wrote:

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

*Investigator chuckling evilly in the background*

Actually...as much use as Investigators have for Int, this isn't technically something they do. They add 1/2 level instead.

[kestral287]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

If they're added together - it'd be extremely OP. Most high level Str characters have a dex of at least 16+ just for AC, often considerably more (with this feat available they'd push it higher), so this feat would be at least +3 damage. +3 damage is too good for a feat, even with the precision limitation. (+2 with specialization limited to a single weapon is a very good feat - and is therefore limited to a few classes)

I'm actually honestly curious about what would happen if they allowed a feat to get Dex-as-precision-damage alongside Strength at a feat chain structure similar to Slashing/Fencing Grace.

I mean, we've been saying for a while that the high-end Dex builds can do a lot of damage. Would that bring it back in line?

Though, food for thought.

A Strength-based TWF Slayer, using Ranger Combat Style to bypass his Dex pre-reqs, actually has the best damage of anything I'm seeing come the mid-levels. He can pull off Two-Weapon Rend effectively, which the Dex TWF has to give up.

Admittedly, that's a huge corner case, but it is interesting.

[Baba Ganoush]

I wish they'd just make both Dex and Str apply. You need one to hit the right place and one to hit that place hard. If you hit with great accuracy you slip through where the armor is weakest - if you hit hard enough you don't need to hit quite at that weak point the blade will bend the edge and still slip in. Make to hit be Str + Dex and damage Str * Dex or something. And make all the weapons basically the same damage. Any weapon invented by a group of people, wielded by someone who knows how to use it is dangerous. Pick the one that you think is cool. Done.

[RDM42]

Baba Ganoush wrote:

I wish they'd just make both Dex and Str apply. You need one to hit the right place and one to hit that place hard. If you hit with great accuracy you slip through where the armor is weakest - if you hit hard enough you don't need to hit quite at that weak point the blade will bend the edge and still slip in. Make to hit be Str + Dex and damage Str * Dex or something. And make all the weapons basically the same damage. Any weapon invented by a group of people, wielded by someone who knows how to use it is dangerous. Pick the one that you think is cool. Done.

So a butterfly knife and a greatsword do the same damage?

[Arachnofiend]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Zombie Ninja wrote:

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

*Investigator chuckling evilly in the background*

Actually...as much use as Investigators have for Int, this isn't technically something they do. They add 1/2 level instead.

I meant that if such a thing existed Investigators would love it. They get massive benefit from Intelligence already and adding it to hit/damage would make them very SAD for a class that hits things for a living.

[Deadmanwalking]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Zombie Ninja wrote:

Forget Dex to damage, I want Int to damage.

*Investigator chuckling evilly in the background*

Actually...as much use as Investigators have for Int, this isn't technically something they do. They add 1/2 level instead.

I meant that if such a thing existed Investigators would love it. They get massive benefit from Intelligence already and adding it to hit/damage would make them very SAD for a class that hits things for a living.

Oh, my yes. That would be brokenly amazing. Which would be one reason we likely won't get it...

[wraithstrike]

Kalindlara wrote:

Then maybe Two-Weapon Fighting is at fault, and not Dex-to-damage. :)

If you use TWF but do not up your strength then the two-handers are still ahead. For TWF to be ahead you have to push dex, strength, burn a lot of feats, and pay more for weapons. After all of that I think it should be ahead.

[Just a Guess]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

I think the dex as precision damage May be a good plan, that way some one both strong and dexterious can benefit from it as well.

I think allowing Str+Dex to damage as the standard method would be a bit too good...

I would make dex to(precision) damage a feat. That way being both strong and dexterious would be a good thing as opposed to wastefull like it is now. It would most likely not be more than +4 more on precision damage for high level str guys. And likely no more on high level dex dudes.

I think i May try this next time i am GM.

If I try this I have worn armor's max dex apply to dex to damage. Generally this should apply to dex to damage.

[Bluenose]

RDM42 wrote:

Baba Ganoush wrote:

I wish they'd just make both Dex and Str apply. You need one to hit the right place and one to hit that place hard. If you hit with great accuracy you slip through where the armor is weakest - if you hit hard enough you don't need to hit quite at that weak point the blade will bend the edge and still slip in. Make to hit be Str + Dex and damage Str * Dex or something. And make all the weapons basically the same damage. Any weapon invented by a group of people, wielded by someone who knows how to use it is dangerous. Pick the one that you think is cool. Done.

So a butterfly knife and a greatsword do the same damage?

Why not? The skill of the user in hitting vital parts of their target seems rather more significant than which weapon they're doing it with.

Personally I'd go with damage at the Hit Dice of the attacker plus a Size Mod plus a small mod (1, 2, or 3) for weapon. And then write up a bunch of fighting styles, determine which weapons can perform each one, and let the "Flashy Swashbuckler" add Cha Mod to damage, a person trying to overwhelm you with lots of attacks use Con, the person trying to overpower you uses Str Mod, and so on.