So perhaps this has been discussed before, but if not, here goes. This is not specifically Pathfinder but is just as valid a question under core 3.5 rules. Here is the situation and question.
Sorcerer hires a blacksmith to craft him (5) 500 lb. steel balls. He casts Shrink Item on each of the balls and then places them into his bag of holding. He has continual Unseen Servants around him (not really necessary for this question but using it to illustrate what happened). In combat he has his servants fetch the balls from the bag. They now float in the air next to him. The sorcerer then uses TK to hurl 3 of the balls at his foe. As the balls hurtle towards the target he shouts the command word, restoring the balls to their normal size.
At the point TK hurled the balls, they were small metal marbles. After TK had hurled them they return to their normal, full size. The telekinesis spells Violent Thrust function says that very hard, or dense objects, should deal 1d6 damage per 25 pounds, so that's 20d6 per ball. He attacked, in one round, for 60d6 damage. In the interests of not wanting to rain on his parade nor quash his creativity (some might say min-maxing weaselness) I allowed it.
So, my questions to the group are:
1) Did I miss anything? Is there a specific rule which would have prevented this?
2) If there are no rules, and this appears to be completely legal, how would you, as the DM, feel about this? Would you allow this as a constant, recurring tactic?
3) If it is legal that he was able to throw the three marbles, could he throw 10 (assuming his caster level is 10)? I say this because TK Violent Burst says "You can hurl one object or creature per caster level" (max 15). So does this mean then that he could hurl 15 marbles and deal 300d6 damage?
Obviously I know that the DM is always free to Rule 0 anything, I just wonder both if this is legal, and something that other DM's would have no issue with? Personally I think its whacked and I'll probably try to come up with something to prevent this silliness from happening again, but I'd prefer it if this sort of silliness is already impossible and I just missed it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ah, the weasely min-maxer.
Just a couple thoughts I had off the bat:
1) Where did the character get the money to purchase cannonballs that large?
2) 5 500 lb. cannonballs? That's 2500 lbs. of steel! Where did the blacksmith get that much raw steel? That amount of steel isn't just on hand - and again, how did the PC afford this?
I'm sure others will chime in too.
Thanks for the quick response Eyebite...
Ah, the weasely min-maxer.
Yes, a furry breed, common in winter.
1) Where did the character get the money to purchase cannonballs that large?
These characters were rebuilt from scratch as 13th level characters using all Pathfinder rules. They were previously 3.5 characters from a campaign that died in summer 2008. The PC's all had 140k with which to build their characters and purchase items. That is standard starting $$ for 13th level PC's. I added stipulations that the PC's could not purchase anything above their "level" from the Magic Item Compendium or the DMG. There was a protracted length of downtime that the PC's were out of commission between campaigns and the PC in question has very many friends (since he is also a Diplomacy weasel). He contracted the balls be made and purchased sufficient raw materials far ahead of time.
2) 5 500 lb. cannonballs? That's 2500 lbs. of steel! Where did the blacksmith get that much raw steel? That amount of steel isn't just on hand - and again, how did the PC afford this?
It didn't really have to be steel. Maybe it was iron, or lead, the specific metal didn't matter, just that ultimately they weighed 500 lbs at full size.
3) shrink item only affects 2 cu. ft. per level. A quick google search turned up cannonballs 9.5 inches in diameter and weighing 3.5 pounds. Just rough-handing the math - I think the cannonballs here would have been too large to be susceptible to shrink item.
Something tells me that a solid iron ball 3' in diameter would weigh a metric crapload. Admittedly, I have not done the math though. A single 3' diameter iron/lead/steel/whatever ball, would be something less than 26-27 cubic feet total, so I allowed the spell to be cast on a 3' diameter metal ball, assuming that would be large enough to add up to a 500' mass.
I'm sure others will chime in too.
I'd love to hear others comments. I have to hope I am missing something somewhere.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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While the shrink item spell doesn't specify what type of action restoring an item to regular size is, it does call it a command word. Command word magic items typically require a standard action to use, so I would simply rule that the shrink item spell requires a standard action to change back to normal size with the command word, and then the whole plan doesn't work. By the time you've said the command word, the TK effect is done and the shrunked balls have hit their target.
From the shrink Item write up:
"Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster"
People are solid the last time I checked, so no command word needed, just hit something with it.
From the shrink Item write up:
"Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster"
People are solid the last time I checked, so no command word needed, just hit something with it.
Yeah. So they're hit by a small ball, which then is returned to its normal size - exactly an instant too late to benefit from its larger weight since it already hit the guy.
Yeah. So they're hit by a small ball, which then is returned to its normal size - exactly an instant too late to benefit from its larger weight since it already hit the guy.From the shrink Item write up:
"Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster"
People are solid the last time I checked, so no command word needed, just hit something with it.
Which is why you drop it on their head instead of hitting their chest. Hello maximum load -> crushing damage.
Yeah. So they're hit by a small ball, which then is returned to its normal size - exactly an instant too late to benefit from its larger weight since it already hit the guy.From the shrink Item write up:
"Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster"
People are solid the last time I checked, so no command word needed, just hit something with it.
With that basic premise, we have nothing to fear from hollow point bullets. Since an item growing in size after it hits you is no more dangerous than the item of the original size.
With that basic premise, we have nothing to fear from hollow point bullets. Since an item growing in size after it hits you is no more dangerous than the item of the original size.
Exactly. I don't care about physics when I'm up against munchkins :P
Which is why you drop it on their head instead of hitting their chest. Hello maximum load -> crushing damage.
This cannot be done with the violent thrust option, though, and it should be quite easy to avoid a dropped object.
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With that basic premise, we have nothing to fear from hollow point bullets. Since an item growing in size after it hits you is no more dangerous than the item of the original size.Exactly. I don't care about physics when I'm up against munchkins :P
This cannot be done with the violent thrust option, though, and it should be quite easy to avoid a dropped object.Which is why you drop it on their head instead of hitting their chest. Hello maximum load -> crushing damage.
thanks to inertia, P = mv, as the mass increases (m) and the moment (P) remains constant (as no additional force is acting on the object) the velocity will decrease. The 500 lb large steel ball will hit the target with the same amount of energy as the small 5 lb steel ball, it will just be moving really slow. But since there was enough energy in that traveling ball to have dealt 1d6 damage, it will still do so.
I think the real trick is slipping a 500lb metal cheerio into the kings breakfast, and then use the command word to release it when he gets uppity.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Galnorag,
In the real world, we would need to conserve both momentum and kinetic energy, and that's impossible with a sudden change in mass (if the mass doubled, the object's speed would have to slow to both one-half and one-quarter its previous speed). Fortunately, this is fantasy, and we need hold to no such provisions.
jryest,
At 13th Level, a wizard can shrink a ball with a volume of 26 cubic feet. Since volume = 4/3 * pi * radius-cubed, each sphere would have a radius of 1.84 feet. Put in more real terms, each would have a diameter of 44 inches, about the size of a large beach ball.
According to a website for metal densities, a sphere that size made of iron or steel would weigh 6.54 tons (3.27 pounds when shrunken). If it were made of lead, the ball would weigh 9.45 tons (4.73 pounds when shrunken).
If we decided to simply melt down a bunch of copper pieces, the ball would cost 7439 gp (less than a +2 sword), and weigh in at 7.44 tons (3.72 pounds when shrunken).
Gold would be classier, and, at 16.10 tons (8.05 pounds when shrunken), pack a bigger wallop, too. That many gold pieces costs about 1.6 million gp, but the ammo is reusable.
"If anyone ever attacks you with a raspberry, just pull the lever and the 16-ton weight will fall on top of him." -- John Cleese as the Sergeant, Self-defense against Fresh Fruit
I would just let them have it. The player needs to give up 4 spell slots (3 unseen servents, 1 shrink item) just to prepere this, and another spell just to make it work. I've seen mages do far worse with single spells on their own, even ones lower level than telekinesis.
And for the record, a command word is a free action, just as talking is a free action.
It doesn't matter what size the balls changed to as the move, they're still moving as they do it, so there should be no dramatic decrease in speed as surgested.
And an item incresing size right next to you does matter, if the computer chair I was sitting suddnely doubled in size, I wouldn't simply be sitting on somthing bigger, the force of the expanding matter would do somthing.
We've been using a tactic like this in our game for some time. This is how we applied the rules:
1) There is precedence for what happens to projectiles that change size and that is from the Enlarge Person Spell. Basically it states that a projectile does damage equal to it's size when fired. The telekinesis spell will let you do 1d6 damage per 25lbs of hard object or the base damage of a weapon; so, we have to begin with an object at least 25lbs or a weapon to have any effect. After it is fired we follow the Enlarge rule so no matter what you do to it in transport it will only do as much damage as its potential at the time of launch.
2) A spell caster can hurl up to 25lbs of material per level; so, if the caster in our game was 10th level she would requisition a 250lb ball max. Material did matter because of damage reduction so we had people saving up to buy cold iron and silver balls. No one has yet been able to afford adamantium.
3) Using permanency with a shrink item spell will let you carry the things around and grow or shrink them as needed.
4) A daily application of greater magic weapon will improve the spell caster's hit and damage potential so that was often applied.
5) Putting the plan into play - this tactic was usually saved for the time when the caster faced a foe that was immune to magic or had a high SR. The caster would throw the cloth form of the ball (shrink item spell) to the ground and enlarge it as a free action and use telekinesis as her standard action to fire the thing. Using our 10th level caster example above the player has a weapon with a 10d6 damage potential, no save or spell resistance allowed but it does require a successful attack roll. Casters can use their Intelligence or Charisma bonuses instead of dexterity on the attack role and we allowed any enhancement bonuses from spells like Greater Magic Weapon.
So, while our rules certainly don't give the players the munchkin potential under discussion in this thread it did put the spell caster back in the game when up against those pesky golems and outsiders with high SR; plus, we ruled the weapon was reusable (dented maybe but reusable) so long as the caster had telekinesis spells available (telekinesis scrolls are very popular).
Of note, big metal spheres reduced by magic are only one way to go with this. The telekinesis spell also lets the caster hurl one projectile per level so a simple bag of sling stones could also provide 10d4 damage potential while remaining significantly less expensive. Imagine a Greater Magic Weapon spell applied to those same sling stones by our 10th level caster; at +2 damage per stone we're now looking at 10d4+20 damage potential with no save or spell resistance so long as it hits. Also, cold iron, silver & adamantium sling stones are a lot more affordable than a 250lb ball of the same so these items are more available for overcoming damage reduction.
Anyway, if the player wants to argue about it throw a handfull of demons at the party (90% of them have telekinesis usable at will) and then ask them which rules interpretation they want to go with.
Cheers,
C.
And for the record, a command word is a free action
No, it's not.
"Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity." (From the SRD)
Exactly. I don't care about physics when I'm up against munchkins :P
With that basic premise, we have nothing to fear from hollow point bullets. Since an item growing in size after it hits you is no more dangerous than the item of the original size.
That's repugnant. There was a time, far too long ago, when the game allowed - if not encouraged - creativity.
Now a creative player is automatically deemed a munchkin...
(Bear in mind, just because variations on the "Shrink Item Tactic" have been around for decades, doesn't mean everyone is aware of them.)
It seems we have stifled creativity to make way for "fair and balanced."
(Note: I am not suggesting fair and balanced should be removed, just that players shouldn't be "punished" [tagged with a negative title such as munchkin] for trying to be creative.)
All I'm saying is that creativity seems to be used only to dramatically increase their damage output...
Sure, Blind Kobolds and Buckets Of Snails are "creative", but they just happen to be tailor-made to circumvent some key restrictions.
All I'm saying is that creativity seems to be used only to dramatically increase their damage output...
Sure, Blind Kobolds and Buckets Of Snails are "creative", but they just happen to be tailor-made to circumvent some key restrictions.
So basically, you're saying that if a plan actually has a significant effect, it's powergamming. Are players not allowed to come up with a good use for a spell or ability? What if we want our wizards to do more than just throw fireballs or have our fighters hit somthing, what if we actually think of a somthing that -should- work and does? I don't think I'm alone in saying that if I got nothing for my creative ideas, I wouldn't bother at all, I'd just make the same old boring charactes over and over.
Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity
A ball under the effects of Shrink item is not a "magic item", it's just an item with a spell on it. If a simple word is needed to activate it, then it's a free action.
Now a creative player is automatically deemed a munchkin...
It seems we have stifled creativity to make way for "fair and balanced."
People no longer wants freedom Steve, all they want is to feel -safe-, they want -predictability-. They no longer want creativity or the magic of the fairy tales, they want -fair and balanced-.
...still, as a fellow (ex)weapons manufacturer and creator of fifty-seven Iron-Man suits I must also warn the author of that idea of a glaring oversight, and that is that the iron marbles are launched with the same strenght it would take to propel a iron marble, force that would become totally insufficient to move an object of the weight and size of a cannonball, thing which the iron marble will turn back to once it goes back to its original size; even if it was to be fired from an archebus, the force is still insufficient to move it farther than a couple of feet at a very slow speed (saying the cannonball stood on a flat, smooth surface), let alone propel it with the strength required to do the kind of damage that's measured in dice. So the only possible damage the cannonball would do upon impact would be if it slid off the target's chest and fell on his foot, regardless of whether it's an impact-then-turn-into-cannonball or dispell-shrink-spell-within-an-inch-from-impact, the cannonball's sheer weight would stop dead any inertia it may have had as a marble.
So Steve, about the Superhuman Registration act...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Regarding wacky things with disproportionate game effects:
I may be an outlier here, but my DMing style is to allow them to succeed, but only once.
Having someone come up with a clever plan involving a portable hole, an unseen servant, and an arrow with knockback, that wipes out the dread lich Aethelread is fun. It's not boring, like running up to His Bleached Lord and pounding him with mace blows.
Repeatedly using the same schtick, though, is a new kind of boring.
So, try it once, and we'll al laugh and you'll be brilliant.
After that, and I will be throwing the rule book at you. Come up with another clever novelty, instead.
A ball under the effects of Shrink item is not a "magic item", it's just an item with a spell on it. If a simple word is needed to activate it, then it's a free action.
Can you back up that claim? Otherwise this goes under dismissing a spell, which is a standard action.
I may be an outlier here, but my DMing style is to allow them to succeed, but only once.
Good call.
Either do that or do the whole goose/ganter thing.
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4) A daily application of greater magic weapon will improve the spell caster's hit and damage potential so that was often applied.
Not sure that in this case enchanting the ammo would improve your to hit. It is the spell that you are making the range touch attack with not the item. If you threw a +5 dragon bane sword at a dragon using TK you do damage as if you are launching an object, not striking it with a bane weapon, so like wise your to hit is as if it were a mundane object, not a magical one.
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There's already a magic item called "Bag of Boulders" in the MIC. It does something very similar to this, albeit at a greatly reduced damage potential.
IMO it would be acceptable to create an improved and greater version of this item that would do more damage, and I'd even allow a certain number of uses per day instead of a fixed number of rocks.
BTW a cubic foot of steel is about 650 pounds IIRC. I do like the idea of tossing around balls of gold though. Classy! :)
