RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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Good morning!
Spinning this off from the 'Clark please be brutal' thread.
Just elaborating on what others said about comments.
I tossed my hat (well bracelet) into the ring to have it ripped to shreds by Wolfgang, Sean, and Clark. When I said I never expected to make it into the top 32 I was serious. If I'd not been picked, I'd have tossed it into the thread asking for all the brutality that people had reserved for it. Indeed, I've read every comment on the bracelet's thread to learn from it.
In a very real sense, it's not just the voting part of RPG superstar that the public's opinion matters. A person might come up with a wow adventure idea, toss it to Paizo/Neromancer/WotC/Green Ronin/whomever and they might publish it.
If it doesn't sell, or is panned, you're likely not to get work as easily again if you don't listen to the reviews, from the people who bought your book, or didn't buy it as the case may be.
In a very broad sense, we're all game designers. We do it every time we build that 1st level character who delves into his first dungeon. We do it every time we build that elaborate world with layers of intrigue that we hope our players will want to unravel. Now we aren't all worth being published, I'm sitting here worried that my <redacted> isn't risky enough, and nervous that Ed Greenwood is reading it. Now that I'm 'in it to win it' I worry a lot more. (Sorry, Clark, Sean, Wolfgang, I have a high level of respect for you all (even you Sean) but there's just something about Ed Greenwood that is more.)
Ok, rant's over with. What do other people think? Would you rather let just the 'professionals' look over your work? Or would you rather we amatures also give our serious input? Well, as serious as I get.
Good morning!
Spinning this off from the 'Clark please be brutal' thread.
Ok, rant's over with. What do other people think? Would you rather let just the 'professionals' look over your work? Or would you rather we amatures also give our serious input? Well, as serious as I get.
All input is useful, but some input is more useful than others.
Mmm, did I look at your item already, don't know, let's rip into it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Star Voter Season 6
aka TerraNova
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I would rather have someone tell me I need to shape up in an area than live in ignorance. Really.
Actually winning RPG Superstar would be incredible. Absolutely above and beyond what I expected. But even if this round is the last for me, I think having my villain torn to shreds by the judges is a chance to make myself a better writer and designer.
Sure, my pride may sting for a while, and I might even disagree to some comments - but each bit of feedback is someone's opinion.
As for "XYZ will think less of me if i submit something that sucks!" - well, before XYZ never knew you existed. That's got to count for something, too?
What do other people think? Would you rather let just the 'professionals' look over your work? Or would you rather we amateurs also give our serious input? Well, as serious as I get.
I believe in taking whatever feedback you get...and assessing it for what it's worth to you. Not for what it's worth to someone else or the person who's giving it.
So, if a professional is commenting on my stuff, you better believe I'm going to take it seriously. But even a non-professional can offer up a comment that's just as pointed and appropriate. You've got to determine what its value is to you when you read it. Absorb it all. And soak in the nutrients of the constructive criticism that will make you a better writer and modify your own personal standards. Discard the rest. And then apply what you learned.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
I'm not going to lie - if I only got to choose one, I'd definitely want the feedback from the judges over the general public. I totally understand the motivation behind wanting those critiques - these three guys are in the industry. They made it.
My comments in the other thread stand, though - you need to be open to criticism, from everyone, if you're going to make it in an industry such as this.
Art is subjective, much more so than it is objective, and, let's face it, this is all pretty much art.
Plus, the fan critiques are valuable, since they're the ones who's vote REALLY matters - the vote of the wallet.
I believe in taking whatever feedback you get...and assessing it for what it's worth to you. Not for what it's worth to someone else or the person who's giving it.
To be sure. If the feedback from Party A is what you want, and the feedback Party B isn't worth anything to you, then ignore it. Nobody's taped anyone's eyelids open. :)
Ultimately, I try to think of the "big 7" as a review board, and the general public as the "super-judge". :)
Yup.
Someone made the comment about how it wasn't the fans that got you to top 32, it's the judges.
Not the greatest attitude to have, when it's the fans that get you to top 16 and beyond.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
aka Tarren Dei
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I take advice from wherever it comes and trust myself to wean the bad suggestions from the good, the ego from the insight, and their misunderstandings from my poor explanations.
When I was working on my PhD thesis, the woman in the photocopy shop started reading one of the chapters. When I came back she started arguing with me about it. I took notes. I think it was a better thesis when I clarified the parts that bothered her.
I'm not going to lie - if I only got to choose one, I'd definitely want the feedback from the judges over the general public. I totally understand the motivation behind wanting those critiques - these three guys are in the industry. They made it.
My comments in the other thread stand, though - you need to be open to criticism, from everyone, if you're going to make it in an industry such as this.
Art is subjective, much more so than it is objective, and, let's face it, this is all pretty much art.
Plus, the fan critiques are valuable, since they're the ones who's vote REALLY matters - the vote of the wallet.
To me, the most important part of participating in RPG superstar is the feedback (both from the judges and the public). Only one of us can win a contract to write a module, but all of us can gain something almost as valuable from this process: we can hone our design skills and gain insight into the thought process of a publisher. Those of us who take the feedback seriously and learn as much as possible from it should have much better odds of getting freelance design jobs in the future, even without winning the big contract at the end of this competition.
If I only had to pick one or the other, I'd be inclined to agree with you and go with the judges. That being said, I got some really excellent feedback from the public on my wondrous item, so maybe the public would be the better choice. Certainly, from this point forward I will be aiming to please them more than the judges, since they make the decisions here. That being said, I think that there isn't really a huge split between judge opinions and public sentiment. They don't go in lockstep, but they're not on totally different pages, either.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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I think peer feedback is a great thing to have. The pros only have so much time to give, and, honestly, Clark taking the time he is to give us feedback is an aberration. Yes, the advice you get from industry pros is generally going to be more appropriate for the industry than what you get from peers. But, who's to say that someone on these boards is not going to be a future Wolfgang Baur, Sean Reynolds or Clark Peterson?
Speaking of peer feedback, if someone wants to take a whack at my item, feel free. Here it is. Be honest--it will only help me improve.
In most creative endeavours like this, peer feedback is indeed the most common thing a beginner will get. And in that sense, I am reminded of that minigame James Jacobs did on another thread about being a successful RPG designer: you should have a reasonable stat for both ego and humility. Humility to listen to reviews, no matter who gives them, and ego to decide what part of that advice is actually useful to you.
People who have no clue whatsoever about D&D mechanics can still offer valuable insight on, say, writing clearly and evocatively. Maybe that guy over there is not a RPG professional but is Jack Vance. Would you spit on the eye of Jack Vance and say his opinions are worthless just because he is not Clark Peterson?
In Paizo boards there are also plenty of people who might not be professionals but who have spirited imagination, mad skillz and experience of years or decades in playing and DMing D&D. Paizo community rocks, and I guess that is also part of the reason why we can have such a contest in the first place :)
I have also observed that the peer reviews tend to be more positive and supportive in spirit of "great item!" so I'd fear any of the judges' comments more than peers'. In that sense I can also see that they can also be less useful,but take what you get :)
In that spirit, my item is on the first page of the other thread, feel free to go rip it apart.
