
Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

We want to make sure the Cheliax book is very useful to players.
Normally we'd do a 2-page Persona article about the a ruler of a country, with stat block, but I don't think that is particularly useful to GMs, let alone players.
Here's an idea.
How about a one-column NPC entry on each of the four class archetypes (mage, priest, warrior, sneako) with stat block. If you're a player, these could be potential henchman or cohorts, ready to follow your PC around. If you're a GM, you can use them as off-the-shelf cannon fodder, or as contacts for the PCs, and so on. We could also include a short bit of info on what extra gear you'd need to add to make them suitable for PCs, and that way you'd have 4 sample PCs you could use off the shelf, like if you had a new player join, or a regular PC temporarily unavailable.
What do you think?
Any other things you'd like to see in the Persona section that isn't a major NPC that the PCs (1) probably will never fight, and (2) shouldn't have the stats if they were to fight.
(The book will still have articles about spells, magic items, religion, and yes, traits, don't worry ... I'm just trying to get feedback on what to do with the Persona section.)

Neil Spicer Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut |

What do you think?
Much more useful. I particular like that they'd be useable as instant NPC adversaries or potential henchmen/cohorts for the PCs.
Do you envision the write-ups as mostly stats? Or would there be enough room to include a bit of background fluff to tie them in nicely to the Cheliax lifestyle and current happenings? I think the latter would help players get a more complete vision of how each archetype might look and feel from Cheliax...and thus, even if they don't use these as off-the-shelf PCs, they might gain inspiration from them for their own characters instead.
Any other things you'd like to see in the Persona section that isn't a major NPC that the PCs (1) probably will never fight, and (2) shouldn't have the stats if they were to fight.
If there's a particular iconic NPC archetype that the PCs might encounter within the borders of Cheliax, it might be worthwhile to provide a write-up for it. For example, in the Guide to Korvosa, we have the Sable Company marines and there's an NPC version of one ready-made for reference. In Cheliax, we have the noble scions of the various houses. So, it might be useful to showcase an example NPC of one of the major houses. Hellknights spring to mind as well, but there have been enough examples of them that most people already have a good vision of what they represent.
Also, given all the devil activity, an example of one that's easily encountered in Cheliax might be worthwhile. Make it more than just the stats straight out of the SRD, of course. Layer on some class levels or something, but showcase what a devil enforcer might look like in Cheliax.
Personally, I'd also like to see a rebel NPC statted up in the Persona section...maybe using one of the archetypes (e.g. a Rogue or Abjurer). To me, a book completely devoted to Cheliax needs to provide more character options than only those affiliated with the devil-worshipping atmosphere inherent in that nation. But, of course, having said that...and if you've got the ability to draw on other OGL templates...it would be really interesting to see a persona statted up using the Devil-Bound template from Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary.
My two-cents,
--Neil

![]() |

In general, this sounds like a good idea, but I'd hope that somewhere in the book there's room for a brief description of the ruler still. Even if it's just a few sentances and basic game info (race, gender, class/levels, templates, etc.) Class should also potentially include significant class based decisions such as speciality school or bloodline for a wizard or sorcerer.

![]() |

What do you think?
I like this idea much more than having a high-level NPC ruler that the PC's will likely never encounter, much less fight.
A quartet of possible NPC cohorts or "typically encountered" archetypes is a good idea. I don't think they really need much of a fluffy write up, especially if you design the stats to span a few level tiers, instead of just being a 4th level (or whatever level) NPC.
The stronger the possibility that the NPCs presented are typical of what the PCs are likely to encounter, the more useful this section will be. Instead of being, say, a generic Fighter, make him a "Typical Chelish House Guard" or something like that.
I like this idea.
-Skeld

![]() |

I like the idea of more personas covered, but I don't know if it's worth the sacrifice of background detail. Part of me would like more variation, while another part simply loves the nice big writeups. Where's the middle ground? I dunno. I guess if it's not a major player in the world, I'd still like to see it be an individual with their own story. Like Lavender Lil. Getting "generic city guard" or "scullery maid" is something a random NPC generator can do in a snap. The backstory's what inspires me as a GM and gives me things to tie my PC to as a player.

![]() |

mmm
mmm
mmm
but but.. i like the high level NPC
not only if would or not would see use at all
is one way to really know the ruler of the countrym, which is part of the country's escense...
one paragraph speaking faintly of him is uselless to make a real impresion
also a ruler has not to be fought to be meet, even from a distance
i know the main classes arquetipes for the country is really a cool idea, but i would regret losing the High Level Ruler
I like the idea of more personas covered, but I don't know if it's worth the sacrifice of background detail. Part of me would like more variation, while another part simply loves the nice big writeups. Where's the middle ground? I dunno. I guess if it's not a major player in the world, I'd still like to see it be an individual with their own story. Like Lavender Lil. Getting "generic city guard" or "scullery maid" is something a random NPC generator can do in a snap. The backstory's what inspires me as a GM and gives me things to tie my PC to as a player.
i agree

![]() |

I’ll chime in that I’ll actually be using the stats of Telandia Edasseril in my campaign. The players asked if they could do a one shot of their characters versus her, some elven nobles, and her guards after they finished Second Darkness. (They like going back and seeing which of the major NPCs they’ve met that they didn’t fight because of their power / influence / being on the PCs side during the real campaign would be ones they could beat at the end of it. I’ll also be running them through fights with Alcavniss, Treerazer, and a few others.) I was willing to agree to their fighting her because I had her stats on hand and didn’t have to make them up from scratch, and they're pleased to be able to have the battle.
Honestly, I like the ruler stats, look forward to seeing Abrogail in something, and would like to see ruler stats continuing somewhere. I’ll also note that I liked getting the decent bit of background info on both Telandia and Khemet a lot. The unique items accompanying them were also a plus.
Those things being said, there's probably a better place for them than the companions. I see no reason why my players would need to see them, or how they could use them in any way that I’d approve of (given that I’d rather they *didn’t* know her stats before going to fight her).

![]() |

I'm also of the find ruler stat blocks useful camp. I really don't need two pages telling me how to do a run of the mill fighter/rogue/whatever ( I mean are they really going to be all that different from place to place both stat ability and gear wise?) but something that tells me what a ruler stats, gear and abilities are is much more useful and more flavour able as well.

![]() |

To my tastes, I like having the stat blocks of high level rulers, with nice equipment and stuff, as well as long background text about their lives and exploits. I use them a lot in my gaming sessions. I don't need pages and pages of stat blocks for cannon fodder, I have done those to death in the past and there are loads of character generators on the net that can do the job of creating random NPCs just fine.
Now, what about NPC rulers confronting recurrent villains the PCs can't currently beat? I mean that kind of villain you keep teasing the PCs with until they grow to a specific level.
Rulers are supposed to be rulers either by their GREAT warrior skills and experience, their GREAT magic skills and experiencie, their GREAT diplomatic skills and experience, their GREAT businessman skills and experience, or some such thing. Villains come in many flavors, and the NPC rulers became rulers for beating many of them, whether those villains were businessmen, polititians, tyrans, warlords or such, and should be prepared to endure attacks of many more to come.
One of the things I do in my game sessions as a GM is have the villains confront some important NPC every once in a while and show off the NPC's skills a bit, repelling the villain's attack and thus making that NPC admirable in the PCs' eyes, giving them an idea of why they are where they are. Several sessions later, it will be the PCs' turn against the villain, once they grow enough.
I usually make stat blocks of homebrew NPC rulers with 12-14 levels, and important authorities like a sheriff, high priest or such with 10 levels.

![]() |

Sean, I understand why you don't want to add Abrogail II
she is a child, a petulant one... while you might think her stats are useless... i would welcome them... with those of her pit fiend regent General Gorthoklek... whose is right now the real power in Cheliax
I to would love to see stats for them. I mean its like only getting half of the story otherwise. Also I feel a persona section should be of someone of importance not some random street thug.

KnightErrantJR |

Don't worry, I'm firmly in the "all I need is his general level, class, race, and alignment" camp when it comes to NPC stats. I personally like the idea of general NPCs from a given region instead of higher level rulers. I agree that they would be useful as potential henchmen/fill in PCs for PCs that die or become incapacitated/quick stats for character type X when the PCs go off the beaten path, and seeing what a, for example, Chelaxian rogue would carry on him does help to flesh out the region. But that is, perhaps, just my opinion.

F. Wesley Schneider Contributor |

A neat story is a neat story and I think the Personas give you that, regardless of whether you're wearing your player hat today or your GM hat. It's a look at a person from the place you've just read all about, which is kind of like bringing all of the details in the book together. While I agree doing the ruler of the nation every month pigeonholes these articles too much, there's probably a middle ground between rulers and nobodies. Lavander Lil, for example, I think was a pretty great example of noteworthy, but still encounterable and useful.
Take that two cents!

![]() |

A neat story is a neat story and I think the Personas give you that, regardless of whether you're wearing your player hat today or your GM hat. It's a look at a person from the place you've just read all about, which is kind of like bringing all of the details in the book together. While I agree doing the ruler of the nation every month pigeonholes these articles too much, there's probably a middle ground between rulers and nobodies. Lavander Lil, for example, I think was a pretty great example of noteworthy, but still encounterable and useful.
Take that two cents!
Agreed

![]() |

A neat story is a neat story and I think the Personas give you that, regardless of whether you're wearing your player hat today or your GM hat. It's a look at a person from the place you've just read all about, which is kind of like bringing all of the details in the book together. While I agree doing the ruler of the nation every month pigeonholes these articles too much, there's probably a middle ground between rulers and nobodies. Lavander Lil, for example, I think was a pretty great example of noteworthy, but still encounterable and useful.
Take that two cents!
i agree with this Wes, is a good way to close the book
and aye Sean I admit I complain for the lack of traits (which I very much like) but i am more for flavor than cruch... mmm
why not both things... it might be complicated but we could have the ruler... Abrogail is but a child (i would have prefered to see the General's stats) in one page... and in the other we could have the example characters (but we would gat some of those already in the APs.. but yeah i know not everyone would get the APs... mmm)
complicated complicated... more crunch or more flavor...

![]() |

I gotta admit, you guys are weird. You complain when Osirion doesn't have any traits for players, but you want to spend 2 pages on stats and a bio for a ruler that 99.99% of all campaigns will never fight and 95% will never encounter in a "I need to know what spells they can do" context. :)
Yeah but I'm one of the people that normally falls into the 00.01% and 5% camps. Even if I'm not using them directly I fall into the belief of better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
Finally moderately high lvl Npc stats are useful because even if I don't use them for the actual Npc they represent I can alter them slightly to use as a High lvl foe for Pc's.

Stewart Perkins |

Sean K Reynolds wrote:I gotta admit, you guys are weird. You complain when Osirion doesn't have any traits for players, but you want to spend 2 pages on stats and a bio for a ruler that 99.99% of all campaigns will never fight and 95% will never encounter in a "I need to know what spells they can do" context. :)Yeah but I'm one of the people that normally falls into the 00.01% and 5% camps. Even if I'm not using them directly I fall into the belief of better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
Finally moderately high lvl Npc stats are useful because even if I don't use them for the actual Npc they represent I can alter them slightly to use as a High lvl foe for Pc's.
Personally I liked Lavender Lil more than I liked the Elven Queen, simply because while running SD Lavender Lil was a nice sidequest that was fun and the queen will be a 2 second meeting. Having said that I have needed the stats for neither and am pretty sure they won't be needed. In essence a nice 2 page spread of character examples (Name, class and race and alignment and any memorable unique gear) and a short bit of history/aka plot hooks would serve me better than the stats on any one npc (unless its a bandit king or some such that can be turned into a side adventure) but I'm good with whatever you do as the books have been top notch.

Charles Evans 25 |
As far as I recall, the 5th Adventure Path is slated to take place entirely in Westcrown, so what about some information on organisations which PCs can join? (Unless there will be an opportunity for a PC to join the royal family by marrying Abrogail Thrune, is the stat. block for her actually necessary, although some background on Cheliax, the civil war, and the Thrunes' part in it would be juicy, if not covered in an article at the back of the AP?)
Oooh, or look at tbug's Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign journal (the mephits of Korvosa) and have rules for aristocratic PCs, and as they rise in power the additional support and influence which they gain from their families....
Or perhaps not. Nevermind.
Wanders off to consult his notes being assembled on the subject of the Cheliax civil war...

![]() |

As far as I recall, the 5th Adventure Path is slated to take place entirely in Westcrown, so what about some information on organisations which PCs can join? (Unless there will be an opportunity for a PC to join the royal family by marrying Abrogail Thrune, is the stat. block for her actually necessary, although some background on Cheliax, the civil war, and the Thrunes' part in it would be juicy, if not covered in an article at the back of the AP?)
The Second Darkness companion has information on joining the Cyphermages. I'm in full support of your suggestion, but I don't think that organizations would go in the persona section of the book in any case.
I think that the consensus is that we want story more than the statblock itself and don't care who it is. A medium level NPC would be cool too. If this were RotR I'd suggest one of the higher level NPCs from Sandpoint who the PCs would encounter several times throughout the campaign and never really fight unless they were an evil party or something. Perhaps one of the retired adventurers? If people don't want a leader, I understand that, but someone NON generic seems much more useful for inspiration both for GMs and players than a city guardsman.

![]() |

Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.
mmm, that sounds intriguing indeed... would have to see how it ends

![]() |

Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.
Sigh This is probably going to sound like whining but I would rather see One really detailed character (even if I don't use them) than several not so detailed characters. (Blame it on the fact that you describe such awesome rulers I mean a little kid ruler who's guardian is a Devil that rocks.)

![]() |

Sean K Reynolds wrote:Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.Sigh This is probably going to sound like whining but I would rather see One really detailed character (even if I don't use them) than several not so detailed characters. (Blame it on the fact that you describe such awesome rulers I mean a little kid ruler who's guardian is a Devil that rocks.)
i should agree with him :P
its your blame Sean :P
Davelozzi |

I don't have a problem with seeing the rulers statted up but certainly a more generally usable NPC is better if it's done well. I'd take Lavender Lil over the Queen of Kyonin any day.

Mairkurion {tm} |

Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.
Yeah, I think this is a good shot in the middle.

![]() |

I don't have a problem with seeing the rulers statted up but certainly a more generally usable NPC is better if it's done well. I'd take Lavender Lil over the Queen of Kyonin any day.
While not necessarily a statblock, I think that having at least the class and alignment of a ruler mentioned in any nation/region/city guide is important, as is a paragraph or two (at least) about them. Maybe two pages is a bit much for one person who may never be used in a campaign, but the ruler of a nation should be mentioned more than just as a line in the CS.

Arnwyn |

Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.
That sounds good.
Note that while I agree that a "2-page Persona article about the a ruler of a country, with stat block" is indeed a bit much, I do believe that a bio of the ruler (whether it's a nation, or just city) - with the minimum stats of "LN human female Ari12/Ftr4" - is pretty much essential.

Elorebaen |

Well it looks like we're steering toward a Lavender Lil kind of writeup for the Persona section (four of them, actually, 1 page each), so each will be a unique character rather than just "Chelish fighter," "Chelish Asmodean priest," etc.
Sounds good.
I am of the camp that wants material on hand that has a really good chance (ie. "man on the street") of getting used, versus material that has a low chance (ie. ruler) of getting used.

Sean Mahoney |

I honestly don't see myself as needing either stats for rulers or insta-NPCs.
My suggestion for the Persona section would be to give a short list and discription of people that the PCs are likely to interact with during a given adventure there.
Some examples:
The PCs should likely be making use of Gather Information checks when they are in town. Who are some of the NPCs that they are likely to be talking to? Is there an information broker in town, if so that might be a good choice and what would his 'cost' be?
How about two rival merchants and hint that both would be interested in hiring the PCs to remove the other somehow... sort of loose plot hook for a sidequest.
Give us a personality and interesting description for the barmaid or innkeeper that the PCs are likely to interact with a lot while in town.
Another idea completely would be to detail things that add personality to an area rather than individual personas. For example, rules of games played in the area (most of the games that have showed up in APs have been very well received from what I have seen and things like custom gambling games or that pig game from CotCT really add personality). Another example would be rules for things like chugging the hagfish water in RotRL.
These sorts of things flesh out the personality of the region being described. I think they would be very likely to see play in a game taking place in that region.
Sean Mahoney

![]() |

I'd like to see a typical halfling slave personally, or maybe a halfling rebel operative pretending to be a slave. I really hope the book doesn't just focus on the powerful, I want to know more about the little guys running underfoot.
This is pretty much the concept of my Pathfinder Society halfling character.
NPCs of any level are great inspiration to base your own PC concepts from.
However, I like the idea of four Pathfinder Society Organised Play legal character write-ups, particuarly for a Player's Guide to a Faction such as this Cheliax one. New players can arrive at game day or convention with a ready-made character straight out of the book.

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

The PCs should likely be making use of Gather Information checks when they are in town. Who are some of the NPCs that they are likely to be talking to? Is there an information broker in town, if so that might be a good choice and what would his 'cost' be?
Good idea. Now, remembering that the Companion books are intended for players to read, tell me how to present this information in such a way that only players who roll high enough get to see it. ;)
How about two rival merchants and hint that both would be interested in hiring the PCs to remove the other somehow... sort of loose plot hook for a sidequest.
Isn't that more of a GM hook than a player hook?

![]() |

Maybe I missed something, but why would there be NPC stats in a book aimed at players at all?
I'd rather have four pages of Chelish traits, feats, equipment, and spells than NPC stats that will be irrelevant for the first 25% of my character's career (No Leadership feat until 6th level means no cohorts/followers until 6th level; and if you can show me a DM that will let me spend my hard-earned treasure on hirelings at low levels, I'll show you a DM that's seriously old school), and will be entirely useless for the final 25% of my character's career (Seriously. What good is a 5th level Fighter to me when I'm a 18th level Wizard? What good is FIVE 5th level Fighters?)
Statted NPCs? Good for someone running a game. A waste of page count for someone playing a game.

Sean K Reynolds Contributor |

Using your "irrelevant to X% of my adventuring career" argument:
* Combat feats are irrelevant to 100% of my wizard's career.
* Spells are irrelevant to 100% of my fighter's career.
* New thieves tools are irrelevant to 100% of my non-rogue's career.
* Westcrown is irrelevant to 100% of my Egorian-based-campaign's-character's career.
* Religion info is irrelevant to 100% of my atheist character's career.
* History is irrelevant to 100% of my amnesiac character's career.
Not everything in a book is going to be 100% relevant to all players for the entire level 1-20 span of the core game. It's not Cappadocius' Character: The RPG. :)

![]() |

AshVelveteen wrote:I'd like to see a typical halfling slave personally, or maybe a halfling rebel operative pretending to be a slave. I really hope the book doesn't just focus on the powerful, I want to know more about the little guys running underfoot.This is pretty much the concept of my Pathfinder Society halfling character.
NPCs of any level are great inspiration to base your own PC concepts from.
However, I like the idea of four Pathfinder Society Organised Play legal character write-ups, particuarly for a Player's Guide to a Faction such as this Cheliax one. New players can arrive at game day or convention with a ready-made character straight out of the book.
I am completely in compliance with this character. My character is a halfling slave barabarian/fighter pit fighter for Society. Look up Callous Jack's Rastist drawing, back on subject I would also like it to be a someone fighting the system.