I am for getting rid of the swallow whole ability for the T-Rex too.
I am also going to repeat myself an say the the velociraptor should be a small animal. It was around 6 feet long with a rigid tail, but only 1'6" tall. I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Medium sized velociraptors should be played by the deinonychus.
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I am for getting rid of the swallow whole ability for the T-Rex too.
I am also going to repeat myself an say the the velociraptor should be a small animal. It was around 6 feet long with a rigid tail, but only 1'6" tall. I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Medium sized velociraptors should be played by the deinonychus.
Oh, so agreed.
My two cents,
1) 4-6
2) T-rex, velociraptor, some form of saruopod, triceratops (maybe stegasurus and ankylosaurus if it gets six entries.
3) Not important at all, just have a sidebar, giving suggested alterations to say make the T-Rex an allosaurus, or the velociraptor a megaraptor, etc.
4)YES.
5) Totally, and it allows them to be advanced a little and be more competetitive when made stronger.
6) As above, a little to plain, the same stands for dire animals.
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Ok, I have to go with generic Dino types with advancement schemes as it would allow the squeezing of more in that are more or less the same mechanically as far as rules are concerned.
Namely,
Carnosaurs, (Large Theropods including Tyrannosaurs)
Dromaeosaurs, (Call them 'Raptors if you will,)
Ceratopsids,
Sauropods,
Ankylosaurs, (I'd be tempted to roll Stegosaurs and Ankylosaurs together for mechancics purposes.)
Pterosaurs,
Ornithiscian, (Catch all for the Hadrosaurs, Hypsiliphodontids, Iguanodontids and the like.)
Pleisiosaurs,
Pliosaurs, (Really a must have from my point of view after having had to try to work on the same desk as a Lioplurodon skull that was being prepped out and having trouble finding the space to even put some paper.).
Ichthyosaurs,
I think that about covers it and its a nice round 10 this way too,
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I think you can make dinos unique without making them too fantasical. For example, t-rexes might get a fling attack to reflect a tossing of the head, causing prey to be flung to the ground. Ankylosaurs might get an automatic bull rush when they hit with a tail attack or perhaps add a disease to the predatory dino's bit attacks to reflect the range of microbes living in their saliva.
I personally like the idea of having a few really neat templates that could be added to a dino, like a feral template or awakened, to reflect the druid spell.
I'll start this off by saying that 1) I haven't read the whole thread, I'm responding to the OP.
2) I'm not the biggest fan of dinosaurs in my fantasy. However, James is, so it's gonna happen, so I might as well get my two coppers in.
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
Triceratops. Raptor. T-Rex. Stegosaur. Those little things the Jurassic Park movies called 'compies'. Pteradon. Maybe add something aquatic like the ichyosaur(sp?)
So six or seven.
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
Stegosaurs and pteradons top the list for new ones. After that, I suppose Triceratops and Raptor.
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
Yes, if instructions are in the block. These need not be elaborate: "A megaraptor has X HD and takes the feats x, y, and z." Everything else is derived from the HD and advancement rules (abilties, HP, saves...) or isn't really relevant for combat (skills). I do feel that the instructions are relevant to make them something citable by page number, without a stat block.
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
Yes, for two reasons. Not only is the Velociraptor better known, it's easier to scale up a monster than down. (It's much harder to make a deinonychus into a velociraptor than vice versa.)
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
Yes, if the abilities are modest and are at least theoretically possible (like the venom-spitters with the frills in Jurassic park, neither of those abilities are 'fossil record' as far as I know.) Ideally, these would be abilities that some expert has theorized but cannot prove.
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
The fossil record goes back a long time, and as a result, we kow of a lot of closely related dinosaurs that are different species simply by virtue of millions of years passing. I'd like to see a list of other possible substitutions listed in the bestiary entry for dinosaurs. For instance, the triceratops entry could state that the stat block would also work for other ceratopsidae species. The t-rex might specify that it would also work as an allosaurus. Stegosaurs could probably work as ankylosaurs. For that matter, when possible, the stat blocks themselves should be given as generic of names as possible. In the above example, the triceratops stat block might just be labelled 'Ceratops'.
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Hadrosaurs could have some sort of sonic attack based on their large crests/calls.
I like the ankylosaur/steggy automatic bull rush with a tail swipe that hits. They could also have the barbed defense ability.
Cerotopsians could have fearsome charge
Tyrannosaurs could have improved critical (bite) and a trip attack (bash with the side of the head to knock prey over).
Raptor-like things could have improved flanking abilities (+4 on flank or are smart enough to aid another) and pounce.
Not a big fan of poisonous dinos, but disease is good idea. Look at the kommodo dragon; he's got some serious dental hygiene issues.
That, and ichthyosaurs with frikkin' lasers strapped to their heads. :)
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I would like to see one sauropod, one or two therapods (T-Rex and Spinosaurus), Utahraptor to represent the dromaeosaurs, and a ceratopsian. Throw in an ankylosaur and a pterasaur if you have room. Since I would be using them mostly for encounters in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords or in the Darklands, a plesiosaur or icthyosaur would not be of much use to me. Give Utahraptor poison claws too.
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I am for getting rid of the swallow whole ability for the T-Rex too.
I am also going to repeat myself an say the the velociraptor should be a small animal. It was around 6 feet long with a rigid tail, but only 1'6" tall. I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Medium sized velociraptors should be played by the deinonychus.
Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.
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Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.
All I see is a feathered kobold. :)
Creative Director
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Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.I am for getting rid of the swallow whole ability for the T-Rex too.
I am also going to repeat myself an say the the velociraptor should be a small animal. It was around 6 feet long with a rigid tail, but only 1'6" tall. I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Medium sized velociraptors should be played by the deinonychus.
Actually, in the game, an argument can be made that the Deinonychus is the best known. He's been in the game since 1st edition's Monster Manual 2, and Utaraptor's only been in the game in a single Forgotten Realms Dungeon adventure, if I remember correctly.
Velociraptor's NEVER been properly in the game (he was technically in the Eberron hardcover, but with a different name).
My current thinking is to go with deinonychus for the monster book, especially if we end up with rules for "deadvancing" monsters, which would allow you to model a velociraptor by advancing a deinonychus down a few CR notches.
Also... since deinonychus is already pretty tied in with the druid as one of many animal options, I'm pretty hesitant to ditch him.
ANYway... keep the comments coming! Good stuff in here!
Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.All I see is a feathered kobold. :)
I think us kobolds can make that dumb, feathered, big kobold a pet :D
Tribe, go forth and do as I command!
On a slightly tangential note... if Golarion has the Mammoth Kingdoms, does that mean we'll be seeing mastadons, smilodons, or other prehistoric mammals in addition to everyone's favorite terrible lizards from the age before timekeeping?
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Creative Director
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On a slightly tangential note... if Golarion has the Mammoth Kingdoms, does that mean we'll be seeing mastadons, smilodons, or other prehistoric mammals in addition to everyone's favorite terrible lizards from the age before timekeeping?
Yes.
More to the point, I'm of the opinion that smilodons are already IN the SRD. They're dire tigers. The concept of a "dire" animal more or less comes from a real world (but extinct) creature, as seen here. In previous editions of the game, there was only the dire wolf, but there were certainly other versions of prehistoric megafauna in the game like the smilodon, the cave bear, and the woolly rhino.
For the Pathfinder RPG, I'm hoping we can do both, as in on the page where you see the tiger stats, you'll see dire tiger and smilodon used interchangeably.
My choices for Dinosaurs would be...
1)A Carnosaur (T-Rex is a natch, but there oughtta be some scaling and some room for claw attacks or no claw attacks)
2)A Sauropod (Diplodicus or brachiosaur to avoid all this "But Brontosaurus sounds cooler!" crap. Apatosaurus pucky, I say!) ;)
3)A Dromeosaurid (I stay stick with deinonychus, it's traditional... and because I'm a persnickety jackanape who likes to point out how small Velociraptors were.)
4)Either 1 Stegosaur or 1 Ceratopsid. (I'm actually leaning toward stegosaur just because it didn't make it into a 3E/3.5 MM, I don't think.)
I think the key is dinosaurs with which the PCs are likely to interact. Carnosaurs are "Grr!" and "Rrarr!" and exciting for big-damn-monster-type encounters. Sauropods are like elephants. You get out of their way, especially if they's a herd. Dromeosaurs are on the same size level as people, it's not untoward to imagine them seeking humans as exotic prey (where for a T-Rex, people are barely tidbits.) Finally, we have a herbivore of a type that might be territorially pugnacious, like a rhino or a bull guarding their turf!
I'll try and answer the other questions when my brain isn't oozing out.
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Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.I am for getting rid of the swallow whole ability for the T-Rex too.
I am also going to repeat myself an say the the velociraptor should be a small animal. It was around 6 feet long with a rigid tail, but only 1'6" tall. I am sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Medium sized velociraptors should be played by the deinonychus.
Actually, in the game, an argument can be made that the Deinonychus is the best known. He's been in the game since 1st edition's Monster Manual 2, and Utaraptor's only been in the game in a single Forgotten Realms Dungeon adventure, if I remember correctly.
I agree that in terms of game history, Deinonychus is more appropriate. However, thanks to Jurrasic Park, Utahraptor is what most people think of when they think of raptor type dinosaurs. Also, according to a 1999 survey, Utahraptor was the most popular dinosaur in the world.
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Creative Director
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I agree that in terms of game history, Deinonychus is more appropriate. However, thanks to Jurrasic Park, Utahraptor is what most people think of when they think of raptor type dinosaurs. Also, according to a 1999 survey, Utahraptor was the most popular dinosaur in the world.
Actually... it's the word "velociraptor" that Jurassic Park popularized. I'm pretty sure the word "utahraptor" isn't mentioned in any of the movies or books...
More to the point, I'm of the opinion that smilodons are already IN the SRD. They're dire tigers. The concept of a "dire" animal more or less comes from a real world (but extinct) creature, as seen here. In previous editions of the game, there was only the dire wolf, but there were certainly other versions of prehistoric megafauna in the game like the smilodon, the cave bear, and the woolly rhino.
For the Pathfinder RPG, I'm hoping we can do both, as in on the page where you see the tiger stats, you'll see dire tiger and smilodon used interchangeably.
Well, 'Dire animal' sort of has a life of its own as a game concept at this point: The 'Dire Wolf' for instance has very little to do with the fossil record Dire Wolf. The images used in the 3.0 era (and possibly before, but it is outside my knowledge) of Dire animals as oversized brutes, with primative, nasty-looking bone spurs everywhere cements them as their own concept.
That said, it makes perfect sense that a smilodon and a dire tiger would have the same stat block, the same way that a Bison and an Bull would, or a leopard and any number of big cats would.
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I agree that in terms of game history, Deinonychus is more appropriate. However, thanks to Jurrasic Park, Utahraptor is what most people think of when they think of raptor type dinosaurs. Also, according to a 1999 survey, Utahraptor was the most popular dinosaur in the world.Actually... it's the word "velociraptor" that Jurassic Park popularized. I'm pretty sure the word "utahraptor" isn't mentioned in any of the movies or books...
True, but Sir Stephen said that he had Utahraptor in mind when he made the movie because he though that actual velociraptors were too small to be scary. That being said I would be happy with anything, so long as it's big and scary.
I am so late to this thread. And a paleontologist too!
Anyway, James and company, personally I'd like a mix of familiar and not-so-familiar dinosaurs. We need some of the former to give players a sense of familiarity, and some of the latter so make players realize that there's more to dinosaurs than the typical Tyrannosaurus Triceratops Apatosaurus (=Brontosaurus) Stegosaurus menagerie. If Wizards and Paizo came up with over 50 official true dragons, Pathfinder can broaden the scope of dinosaurs and use some obscure ones.
BTE [SHAMELESS PLUG]We're doing a conversion thread of 2e prehistoric animals at EN World's Creature Catalog, so you can mine that for ideas.[/SHAMELESS PLUG]
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I'd love to see "awakened" dinosaurs expanded upon a la Goodman's Guide to T-Rex and Velociraptors. But keeping with normal dinosaurs, pachycephalosaurs need some play.
And call me crazy, but I always wanted an archaeopteryx familiar.
Pliosaurs, (Really a must have from my point of view after having had to try to work on the same desk as a Lioplurodon skull that was being prepped out and having trouble finding the space to even put some paper.).
Seriously. Lioplurodon for the aquatic dino.
Screw nessie.
That thing was a real life sea dragon.
I would also accept the Kronosaurus, as it was a little bigger and had a cooler name.
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You know, this is totally not a dinosaur, but I'd love to see Trilophosuchus - a 5 foot long Australian crocodile that was probably arboreal, and is hypothesized to have dropped onto its prey from the branches.
Yes, Australia had drop crocs. They're not drop bears, but close enough for D&D, darn it.
Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.
I would class Utahraptor as Large due to size and mass, but I can see an arguement for Medium. They kind of fall in that grey area at the top end of Medium/low end of Large.
For the Pathfinder RPG, I'm hoping we can do both, as in on the page where you see the tiger stats, you'll see dire tiger and smilodon used interchangeably.
You may need to adjust the size of the current dire animals to better fit the size of the prehistoric megafauna.
Edit:
For megafauna I see these possibilities:
Dire Wolf = Dire Wolf
Dire Tiger = Smilodon
Dire Boar = Daeodon (formerly Dinohyus)
Dire Bear = Arctodus (who I think is bigger than a cave bear)
Dire Lion = American Lion (or Cave Lion)
Also Megalania should be the "dire" version of the monitor lizard.
Well, because you're selling to hardcore DnD players you may as well name it "Deino...whatever". Since I have only once in over 11 years encountered any dinosaurs in a game I was shocked to see so many people know about this obscure "Deino..." named thing. Now that people say the dinosaur was named thusly in the monster manual, I understand why so many people insist on utilizing the "Deino..." name.
But frankly, if you go out on the street and talk to any random person, or even any random gamer, no one is going to have any idea what you're talking about when you mention a "Deino...". They won't get excited seeing a "Deino..." in the Monster Manual because they have no idea what it is. They'll just think it's some obscure dinosaur.
But tons of kids after seeing Jurassic Park will want to put a "Velociraptor" in the game. If you want greater name recognition, putting Vel... at the top and scaling up to a "Deino..." in the advancement tables would work wonderful. Dinosaur snobbishness will only travel so far in a world where eclectic knowledge of dinosaurs becomes increasingly passe' with every year following Jurassic Park's release. Ask yourself, how many newly released dinosaur themed movies have you seen in the last four years? (Land Before Time XIV, etc. does not count.)
Good Luck!
~LD.
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LBT XIV: Spike's Revenge? Aww, man! That's my Favourite one! :)(Land Before Time XIV, etc. does not count.)
Hey, poser! Land Before Time XIV is in production; we haven't been given a name yet, let alone any screenings! The last named and commercially available Land Before Time movie was XIII, The Wisdom of Friends.
Don't be fakin' your LBT cred, yo.
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Creative Director
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Actually the best medium sized dromaeosaur would be a Utahraptor.I would class Utahraptor as Large due to size and mass, but I can see an arguement for Medium. They kind of fall in that grey area at the top end of Medium/low end of Large.
The best way to do it, I think, would be Small = Velociraptor, Medium = Deinonychus, and Large = Utahraptor. Which is a pretty compelling argument for Deinonychus, really, since it puts the small and large ones in equal distance for modification.
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Creative Director
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Well, because you're selling to hardcore DnD players you may as well name it "Deino...whatever". Since I have only once in over 11 years encountered any dinosaurs in a game I was shocked to see so many people know about this obscure "Deino..." named thing. Now that people say the dinosaur was named thusly in the monster manual, I understand why so many people insist on utilizing the "Deino..." name.
But frankly, if you go out on the street and talk to any random person, or even any random gamer, no one is going to have any idea what you're talking about when you mention a "Deino...". They won't get excited seeing a "Deino..." in the Monster Manual because they have no idea what it is. They'll just think it's some obscure dinosaur.
But tons of kids after seeing Jurassic Park will want to put a "Velociraptor" in the game. If you want greater name recognition, putting Vel... at the top and scaling up to a "Deino..." in the advancement tables would work wonderful. Dinosaur snobbishness will only travel so far in a world where eclectic knowledge of dinosaurs becomes increasingly passe' with every year following Jurassic Park's release. Ask yourself, how many newly released dinosaur themed movies have you seen in the last four years? (Land Before Time XIV, etc. does not count.)
The thing is, though, the type of kid that gloms onto dinosaurs at an early age has a certain level of precociousness to him, especially if he memorizes so many dinosaur names so early on. That's the exact SAME kind of kid that gets into D&D, so the Venn Diagram that charts D&D fans and dinosaur fans has a lot of overlap.
I still remember when I first learned about deinonychus; it was from a National Geographic when I was like 5 or 6 or something, several years before the 1st edition MM came out. So it was actually a pleasant surprise to me when deinonychus showed up in there.
Deinonychus is not really an obscure dinosaur, in any case, especially now that Jurassic Park has bolstered dinosaurs in popular culture. But Jurassic Park didn't INVENT dinosaur fandom.
I actually think that there's a better chance for a random person on the street to recognize what a deinonychus is than a beholder.
Anyway, as for new dinosaur movies, there's been actually a lot more than, say, there were in the 80s or 90s. Putting aside the three Jurassic Park movies (all three of which were box office smashes), there's a HUGE number of low-budget dinosaur movies out there, even today, from Roger Corman's multi-part Carnosaur series to more recent offerings; seems like every month, at least one dinosaur-themed movie shows up on the Sci-Fi channel.
Dinosaur-themed movies recently that don't include Jurassic Park but were pretty huge movies include Disney's CGI Dinosaurs, King Kong, A Night At the Museum, 10,000 BC (not really dinosaurs, but close enough), last year's Journey to the Center of the Earth, a HUGE amount of documentaries like Walking with Dinosaurs up to the current Jurassic Fight Club. Of those four, all of them but Walking with Dinosaurs and the Disney movie came out in the last 4 years. If you expand this to include Gozilla and other kaiju movies, dinosaur-type themes are even MORE common.
Dinosaurs, in fact, have a longer tradition than the swords & sorcery genre of making big and popular movies, all the way back to the mid 20s' with "The Lost World." Fantasy movies have LONG been in a ghetto that they're only now emerging from.
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Dire Boar = Daeodon (formerly Dinohyus)This one's actually something that I've been waffling on... which version of the name to use for the dire boar. I'll probably stick with Daeodon, I guess.
Yeah, please get away from the "spike and bone spur" "dire" animals. They are soooooooooooo goofy it isn't even funny ;)
The thing is, though, the type of kid that gloms onto dinosaurs at an early age has a certain level of precociousness to him, especially if he memorizes so many dinosaur names so early on. That's the exact SAME kind of kid that gets into D&D, so the Venn Diagram that charts D&D fans and dinosaur fans has a lot of overlap.
There's probably a fair bit of overlap between D&D players and people who reference Venn Diagrams. *grin*
I stated it earlier in the thread, but I still think there's a lot to be said for trusting the reader to go and look something up on Wikipedia if they don't know the concept or term at first glance. When encountering something new, I'd rather do that, than get the feeling that content has been written to piggyback on an already known phenomena.
CR
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I stated it earlier in the thread, but I still think there's a lot to be said for trusting the reader to go and look something up on Wikipedia if they don't know the concept or term at first glance. When encountering something new, I'd rather do that, than get the feeling that content has been written to piggyback on an already known phenomena.
CR
Man, tell me about it! Adds the "It's educational!" hook back into the game (a hook that, imo, has been missing a bit as the game became less informed by the lit side of fantasy, and more the visual media side...).
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Creative Director
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On the topic of dinos in movies/shows also the BBC show Primeval is darn good, for what it is.. and it touches upon extinct creatures all the way up to the Dodo (it also has some episodes focused on the future versions of current animals)
Oh! Right! it is! Some GREAT dinosaur stuff in there.
Dire Boar = Daeodon (formerly Dinohyus)This one's actually something that I've been waffling on... which version of the name to use for the dire boar. I'll probably stick with Daeodon, I guess.
I figure the dire ape would be gigantopithecus and the dire shark would be megalodon. However, I am at a loss for an anolog for the dire badger, dire bat, dire rat, dire weasle, and dire wolverine.
Over at the Creature Catalog, we've been converting a bunch of prehistoric beasties lately, and we've found some real gems outside the common dinosaurs.
For instance the gorgonopsians would fit nicely into most D&D campaigns. If you have any doubt, check out a few scenes from the wonderful BBC show, Primeval:
The thylacoleonidae are essentially "dire marsupials" from Australia, that are supposedly tougher pound-for-pound than a smilodon.
Shonisaurus, Therizinosaurus, and some of the labrynthodonts (like Mastodonsaurus) would also make worthy adversaries.
I figure the dire ape would be gigantopithecus and the dire shark would be megalodon. However, I am at a loss for an anolog for the dire badger, dire bat, dire rat, dire weasle, and dire wolverine.
I don't know any species names, but there used to be rats big enough to be dire rats. Dire Weasels and Badgers ARE just wolverines. Dire bats don't work under earth physics very well, that I know of (like Rocs). Dunno Dire Wolverine either.
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Creative Director
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I figure the dire ape would be gigantopithecus and the dire shark would be megalodon. However, I am at a loss for an anolog for the dire badger, dire bat, dire rat, dire weasle, and dire wolverine.Dire Boar = Daeodon (formerly Dinohyus)This one's actually something that I've been waffling on... which version of the name to use for the dire boar. I'll probably stick with Daeodon, I guess.
Some of those will be tough, and in certain cases, impossible (such as the dire bat). In those cases, we might either just stick with "dire" or we might go with "giant bat" or something. Dunno yet.
I don't know any species names, but there used to be rats big enough to be dire rats.
Actually, I forgot about the coypu/nutria. They are 2 feet long semi-aquatic rats that are pretty nasty when you make them mad. They are still hunted in Louisiana for fur and population control. I have also heard from my boss that the meat is pretty good.
For the Dire Wolverine use Megalictis It was largest mustelid known. It looked like a wolverine the size of a black bear.
I don't know any species names, but there used to be rats big enough to be dire rats.Actually, I forgot about the coypu/nutria. They are 2 feet long semi-aquatic rats that are pretty nasty when you make them mad. They are still hunted in Louisiana for fur and population control. I have also heard from my boss that the meat is pretty good.
Right. They have these nasty orange teeth.
Capybaras might also be Dire rats, though without the disease.