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5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack.
Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
You mean like the OGL Babbler and Bonesnapper, which should both be included in any respectable Dinosaur section of a Bestiary?
I'm going to have to add Spinosuarus to that list, a personal favorite, and just to show how much of a nerd I am some of the dino's listed so far are not really dino's. There where no dinosaurs in the oceans, plesiosaurs where actually just reptiles and possibly related to modern turtles, while dino's are closely related to bird.
How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
I would go with 6 to 8 "standard" types and note that certain other dinos would be advanced versions. For example, apatosaurus could be an advanced diplodocus.
What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
Tryannosaurus - he is the big guy. I would love to see a guanlong as an example of a small tyrannosauroid (they were around 10-feet in size, weighed as much as a sheep, and may have had protofeathers).
Diplodocus - I think is a better option than apatosaurus. It is also the posterboy for the whip-tailed sauropod.
Triceratops or Stegasaurus - Either of these guys are classis.
Velociraptor - while I prefer deinonychus, it would be easy to note that it is an advanced velocraptor. I would leave megaraptor out since it is not a dromseosauroid. However, please make them the small animals they were in real life.
Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
Try to stick with some of the speculative science where posible. Diplodocus had the whip-tail. Some of the microraptorians could probably perform Wing Assisted Incline Running (WAIR). Of course, the possibility of poisonous bites (such as modern Komodo dragons), is possible too.
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
If just four... T-rex, deinonychus, pterodactyl, triceratops. But I'd rather see eight: those four plus (in descending order of importance) the stegosaurus, apatosaurus, ankylosaurus, and elasmosaurus. And I'd love to see the pachycephalosaurus, paracerolophus, compsognathus (swarm), and gallimimus (as a PC mount/animal companion) in later bestiaries, cuz they're just cool looking and lend themselves well to unique special attacks.
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
Sigh... the purist in me is kicking at this, but yeah, makes sense.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
I don't know why there wouldn't be some poisonous dinosaurs, and I think spitting attacks or the like could be fine as long as you gave them to existing species instead of making up new types whole cloth. But in general I think the fossil record supports much cooler abilites than the current stats give them credit for. Some examples:
- Tyrannosaurs: augmented criticals (incredible jaw strength), disease (like modern day komodo dragons), bleeding wounds (serrated teeth), frightening presence (it's a T-rex!)
- Deinonychosaurs: pounce/rake (they already have these, but they're still perfect fits), improved flank or other pack hunting bonuses, camouflage (like the ranger ability... this could be terrifying).
- Triceratops: impale (free grapple and continuing damage on a critical hit), shield rider (riders can get cover behind the neck frill), automatic bull rush and extra damage on charge attacks.
- Pterodons: Flyby attack with improved grab, so they can carry PCs back to their clifftop nests. Bonus damage for diving charges. A line about using them as mounts, since any encounter that starts with someone on the back of a flying dinosaur is made of win.
- Big sauropods: Crush/trample attacks, deafening whip-cracks with their tails, tail sweeps that hit everything in a wide swath and knock targets down on a hit. Super bonus cool points for rules on climbing up onto their backs, or for any picture that shows a dinosaur with a howdah.
- Stegosaurs: Defensive stance with crazy AoO bonuses. Knockback if struck by the thagomizer (best word ever).
- Ankylosaurs: Tail sweeps that stun. Free attacks when flanked. Crazy high AC and fortification, but with a soft underbelly (encouraging nimble PCs to dive underneath, or work together to try to flip it over).
Hmmm...dinosaurs. ^^ They must be!
Tyranosaurus Rex is obviously a must have. Its iconic dinosaur fair.
A raptor pact hunter would be good, no need for the megaraptor anymore really.
An Aquatic dinosaur and a flying dinosaur should be there as well.
A herbivore would be good too.
Taking a bit of reasonable creative liberty on the dinosaurs should be okay. Though I can't see much that could be added to the T-Rex, unless you wanted its bite to be similar to a komodo dragons bite.
1. Seems to be lots of dino-love, maybe 6-8.
2. yikes: Velociraptor (instantly recognizeable to anyone, even newbs who arent dino geeks, thats a plus), ankylosaurus, pterodactyl, and dilophosaurus. The last is perfect for your "dinasuars don't have to be boring" approach. A dinosaur with a ranged attack and poison? Count me in!!
I'm excluding T-rex from this list because really, mechanically, T-rex is a larger version of Velociraptor. In behavior? no, of course not, but in DND stat-blocks, yes.
3. sounds good.
4. yes, please.
5. Please include Dilophosaurus for this reason. As far as expanding them beyond what the fossil record might suggest... I dunno. I think they cease to be dinosaurs if you have triceratops with horn shooters. However, impale attacks, Pounce, Augmented Critical, etc, as the previous poster suggested are very good ideas.
I also wouldn't entirely be against a Linnorm-like (MM-2) creature. Though technically a dragon, the Linnorms were basically T-rexes with 20 levels of Cleric, (or, the best one was, anyway). No, we wouldn't have to call them 'dinosaurs', but a creature like that would appeal to me. (Don't necessarily make it epic though).
Contributor
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1) I'd say keep it down to about five or six, like the MM. You can always include more and/or variants in the APs
2) Definately T-rex and Triceratops. Those are the two animals that call back up the six-year-old side of my brain that squeals "Ooooo! Dinosaurs!". Deinonychus/Raptors are a good choice, too, in our post-Jurassic Park world. And beyond that, I'd say an Apatosaur or something else that works well as a war beast similar to a mammoth.
3) Definitely whittle down the dinosaurs that are similar; There are so many varies biomorphs that it seems a waste of pages to print nearly identical stat blocks for two different dinos.
4) Since RPGs rulebooks are more about making sure everyone in on the same page than scientific accuracy, Velociraptor is probably a better choice. More brand recognition.
5) I think so. The 'spitters' in Jurassic Park were a fun variation, and some similar tinkering for PF stats could be fun. Maybe the Velociraptors have some sort of Improved Pack Hunting that grants them better Aid Another bonuses and Triceratops have a musk gland like a modern-day skunk, or maybe just include optional templates for "Poison-Spitting" or "Bellowing" variations at the end of the dinosaur entry (or lter in the book).
6) My biggest complaint is just that RPG stats try so hard to be accurate that they come out bland. Making fantasy dinosaurs bigger or smaller than life, giving them better artwork, or just giving them fun tricks or tactics might make them more appealing than "also included" status they usually fill for me right now.
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On #5 - I'd love to see some variants and new dinosaurs. I like the idea of poison, pouncing, etc., even if real dinos couldn't. Maybe no energy beams shooting from their eyes, but sonic attacks, static electricity discharges, disease bites, good stuff. To me, it's all about ecology. Golarion had a reptile age and it passed in some places but not others. But if there are still some dinos around, they've been adapting and evolving for the last million years too. Jungle Rexes, desert Rexes, cave Rexes, Rexes with long claws, Rexes horns, etc. Same with the other types. They have to be competitive with the other critters in tehir environs.
LOVE the idea of eventually doing some West of Eden dino warbeasts and other specially bred dinos. I'd actually prefer to see some kind of evolved dino-men as the ancient bad guys than snakemen. Snakes with arms are odd for me - where'd they get those arms? - but dino-men = cool and even a little bit plausible!
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Giving various dinosaurs poison, camouflage, disease, spitting venom, short distance springs (like a cheetah) and other typical animal abilities makes sense, to jazz them up a bit.
Have a T-Rex able to pull a cheetah stunt and charge at greater than normal speed would certainly open some eyes.
Having a pack of velociraptors do Move-By attacks slashing with their bleeding-wound-inflicting and / or laming (similar to caltrop effects, due to their slashing at legs of prey) and / or Filth Fever-bearing footspurs and then moving out of range to wait for the wounded prey to succumb to blood loss and infection, could make for a scary encounter for a party lacking adequate healing options.
Having a Stegosaur prove able to 'fan' it's back plates to give it a slight bonus (+1 or +2) to AC vs. missile attacks (or attacks from larger creatures trying to attack down upon it, such as T-Rexes or flying attackers (like wyverns)), as they impact on the massive bony plates and are knocked aside before striking flesh, could be a neat small bit of detail.
And anyone hit by an Ankylosaur's tail should be knocked flying, suffering both impact damage and a bull rush with significant pluses (that doesn't move the Ankylosaur).
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So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
1. 6-8 as a start and see if you can squeeze in more.
2. T-Rex, Triceratops, a dromaeosaur (velociraptor, deinonychus, utahraptor) and either an ankylosaur or stegosaur or possibly a sauropod. And for the dinosaur contemporaries that weren't actually dinosaurs (nitpicky I know but accurate nonetheless) a pterosaur (possibly pteranodon but there are quite a few to choose from), an icthyosaur, a plesiosaur and a mosasaur.
3. That works but call the advanced one utahraptor blast it! Actually if we were to apply this to all the dinosaurs (something that I would NOT agree with but... use alioramus for tyrannosaurs, protoceratops for the the ceratopsians, vulcanodon or massospondylus for a sauropod, velociraptor for a dromaeosaur, kentrosaurus for a stegosaur and maybe scelidosaurus for an ankylosaur and give rules for advancing them to the size of their more famous larger cousins AND present a rule that advanced versions of creatures CAN be taken as animal companions/special mounts.
4. Velociraptor would work but realize that it would be a SMALL creature by the size category rules and would be advanced to medium for deinonychus and to large for utahraptor.
5. It has been pointed out several times but give T-Rex a komodo dragon like diseased bite, augmented crit and a more restrictive swallow whole, give sauropods trample and tail whip attacks, stegosaurs a tail spikes type attack, and ankylosaurs a tail club attack and possibly (with a nodosaur variant) a shoulder gore attack. Dromaeosaurs possibly get rend and a wounding type ability.
6. Can't think of anything. But for the art feathers as others have said at least for the dromaeosaurs.
Have a T-Rex able to pull a cheetah stunt and charge at greater than normal speed would certainly open some eyes.
Actually, the Tyrannosaurus was probably a sprinter. They did not have the leg muscels to run at high speeds. Its average land speed was likely the same as an elephant.
T-rex also had a bite strength of 3,300 pounds, about 3 times that of the spotted hyena (the top biter today). I think that would qualify for augmented critical.
By the way, the raptor dinosaurs most likely had stiff, feathered tails. These would have provided added balance and allowed for quick turning. I see no reason not to allow dromaeosaurids to turn while charging. They are built for maneuverability and speed. They would have been good leapers too, attacking in a manner similar to a tiger.
Dinosaurs were probably not stupid. They were very successful in many niches and habitats. Whatever you decide, make sure that they are warm blooded, and quick.
Birds are the survivors.
Niches I would like to see filled:
Small swarmers with numbing poison.
Spitter.
Chameleon.
Medium size raptor.
Three types of aquatic.
For name recognition: Iguanadon, Triceratops, Protoceratops, Elasmosaur, Dimetrodon, Stegasaurus, Velociraptor, Brontosaurus, Pteranodon, Diplodocus, Ankylosaurus, Plesiosaur. The first edition MM had a great selection. It would be good to use them again.
Please give them colourful skins and for Sciences sake, give them lips. No animal lets nutrient rich blood dribble out of its mouth. Dinosaurs had cheeks.
And THEY ARE NOT LIZARDS
You mean they don't do the tongue thing?
I've statted up a ton of dinosaurs (all of the creatures from the World of Kong book, and all of the unconverted ones from the 1e MMs 1 and 2), so I have something of a, well, vested interest in the subject. So let me say:
1. Six to eight prehistoric reptiles would be good. A pterosaur, a plesiosaur, and the rest actual dinos.
2. Ceratopsian, dromeosaur, tyrannosaur, sauropod. Stegosaur or ankylosaur narrowly getting pushed into the fifth slot. In a perfect world, we'd get a therizinosaur (giant reptilian feathered ground sloths with meter long claws FTW!), but I know I do not live in a perfect world.
3-4. If Velociraptor was properly small, with notes on how advancing to Medium made the stats represent Dinonychus and to large represent a Utahraptor (unfortunately for naming purposes, Megaraptor was, in fact, a basal tetanuran), then yes.
5. I agree with you 1000%. Dinosaurs need to be more than improved grab/swallow whole. How about:
For tyrannosaurs, pinning underfoot and worrying at prey rather than swallowing it. Also, improved critical. The giganotosaurus in the dinosaurs article in Dragon magazine was pretty ideal for me.
Dromeosaurids should have pounce, tripping/grappling abilities, improved flanking. Even if the fossil record shows that the Dinonychus found in association were probably actually fighting over a carcass and eating each other, the pack hunting "raptor" is too popular and cool a pop-culture image to discard. Besides which, that paper could always be challenged with new evidence.
The current scientific evidence suggests that a sauropod's tail could break the sound barrier. As such, my diplodocoids, when they hit on a tail attack, deafen and stun. Think a whip propelled by forty tons of muscle.
Ceratopsians had frills protecting the neck. Stegosaurs and polacanthids had spines and plates along the back. Ankylosaurs were living tanks. All of the above should have at least light fortification, with ankylosaurs getting some DR on top of that (/-, I would think) and some stegosaurs, polacanthids and Styracosaurus getting something akin to the barbed defense of a barbed devil, or a free AoO against attacking opponents.
I wouldn't mind more gonzo abilities like poisonous hairs et al, but there's lots of interesting stuff that is supported by the fossil record. And please, if you're going to make poisonous dinos, don't do what Monster Manual 3 did. Please no "raptors" with poisonous claws and tail spikes.
6. Previous dinosaurs were boring. They're sacks of hit points with no attacks beyond grapple and swallow whole. The same goes for a lot of animals, really. Give them more besides claw/claw/bite, Alertness and Endurance, and I'll be happy. I agree with the call to get your artists to pay attention to the current state of affairs for their illustrations. That means a wider color palette than grays, browns and greens, and dromeosaurs with feathers and hands that fold in the right direction. I recommend Luis Rey to be the guy to look to--his art is bold and vibrant, with dinosaurs that look like they were really alive.
The best post on dinosaurs yet.
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Triceratops, Tyranasaurus, Pteradactyl/Pterandon, Diplodocus/Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus).
I do appreciate your choices here. I also might say that the bestiary is to grand in scope to include Dinos.
May I suggest a Pathfinder Cratecous Period guide? I mean, wow, James! Wouldn't that be living the dream? To finally have these baddies in-synch with a well done fantasy immersion. I am right there with you buddy on this, but the Dinos need more than just a page spot among the other fantasy monsters. These things are diverse and interdependent. You can pull a few out of the hat, but that in no way will create a believable "dino experience". Dinos aren't fantasy, they are reality. These things need diverse environs to be properly represented. Most people know this, and therefore there must be a greater degree of plausibility.
A Green Dragon springs from a forest in a drop of a hat, and no one is thinking, "Where are all the other dragon types and colors".
A T-Rex that springs from the forest begs the question, "What other dinosaurs are out there? I bet T-Rex's need a lot of "dino big game" to support their mass.
And I do not mean to waste your time. I am just saying that dinosaurs are a real world animal ported into fantasy. I feel "in my gut" that this requires great finesse to pull off a credible dinosaur experience.
That said, I may have overstepped and gone too real. Afterall, we are talking about a silly imaginery world. Can't dinosaurs be left as fantasy creatures and leave it at that?
<sigh>.
Woulda it be loverly.
Zuxius
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1) 6 (#2 plus Plesiasaur and Pteradactyl)
2) T-rex, Triceratops, Diplodocus, and Velociraptor
3) 's alright
4) 's okay
5) You mean like turning Dilophosaurus into "spitters" in Jurassic Park? I'm fine with that. To a point. An icon like T-rex shouldn't be anything but really big teeth, IMHO.
6) I hate the simplicity of hitting ANY animal with an INT damaging effect and bypassing the encounter. Most animals have an INT of 2 or 3. When that's knocked down to 0, the animal passes out. Doesn't matter how tough the animal is, it's probably going down on round one. BORING!
I think t-rex should get two of hand attacks with -5 to hit and deal 1 damage. Just to mock those useless little forelimbs :)
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Triceratops, Tyranasaurus, Pteradactyl/Pterandon, Diplodocus/Apatosaurus (Brontosaurus).
I do appreciate your choices here. I also might say that the bestiary is to grand in scope to include Dinos.
May I suggest a Pathfinder Cratecous Period guide? I mean, wow, James! Wouldn't that be living the dream? To finally have these baddies in-synch with a well done fantasy immersion. I am right there with you buddy on this, but the Dinos need more than just a page spot among the other fantasy monsters. These things are diverse and interdependent. You can pull a few out of the hat, but that in no way will create a believable "dino experience". Dinos aren't fantasy, they are reality. These things need diverse environs to be properly represented. Most people know this, and therefore there must be a greater degree of plausibility.
A Green Dragon springs from a forest in a drop of a hat, and no one is thinking, "Where are all the other dragon types and colors".
A T-Rex that springs from the forest begs the question, "What other dinosaurs are out there? I bet T-Rex's need a lot of "dino big game" to support their mass.
And I do not mean to waste your time. I am just saying that dinosaurs are a real world animal ported into fantasy. I feel "in my gut" that this requires great finesse to pull off a credible dinosaur experience.
That said, I may have overstepped and gone too real. Afterall, we are talking about a silly imaginery world. Can't dinosaurs be left as fantasy creatures and leave it at that?
<sigh>.
Woulda it be loverly.
Zuxius
Dino's + Fantasy are already a part of the zeitgeist, with books like the lost world, dinotopia, endless b-movies with cavemen being eaten by plasticine dino's, they aren't everyones fantasy cup of tea, but they are a part of the genre.
The reason they are needed in the MM is to give DMs a taste and idea on how to detail megafauna so that they have a core set, and then can make more of there own. I'd love a whole dino book that does both a complete listing of dino's, then maybe some PC Saurial's, and mix in some ecology, and some plot hooks or an adventure.
As for dino's to include in the MM, if you wanted something of a different flavour, but cool, in Jurassic Park (the novel) he included a dino, the Compsognathus, it is a small chicken sized dino, with a poison bite. It was a numbing slowing poison (dex damage?) and by itself it was pretty weak, but the things would swarm in large numbers. By the time you made your umpteenth forth save vs the poison you would stop thinking the things looked cute and start praying that you lived :)
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How about clerical dinosaurs? Certain 'scientists' here argue that the fossil record was a test by him upstairs - what if in Golarion it wes actually true?
There was an article in an old Dragon mag, about time travel, which suggested that the gods would manifest in forms favourable to their worshippers, so a priest of Thor, who went back to prehistoric times, may find that the shamen of 'The Thunder Lizard' are his spiritual predecessors, and the god fails to recognise him.
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Dino's + Fantasy are already a part of the zeitgeist, with books like the lost world, dinotopia, endless b-movies with cavemen being eaten by plasticine dino's, they aren't everyones fantasy cup of tea, but they are a part of the genre.The reason they are needed in the MM is to give DMs a taste and idea on how to detail megafauna so that they have a core set, and then can make more of...
Well, I suppose so. I guess I would just rather see more of the classic fantasy/Paizo monsters in the Bestiary and have the Dinos properly put together somewhere else. It seems a little piecemeal to me, but I always had a bad ego anyway. To me, the Dinosaurs need more "ompf" to do them justice. I like the ideas of poisonous bites and other prickly things, but in the beastiary it will read like "just another monster" to encounter when in fact it will be encountered in an incomplete environ. Albeit, each creature will be getting a full page or two. One could put a lot of description into that, but I am sure it won't be enough to do the critters justice (as my mind sees it). Good thing I don't make these calls. It would be DinoRPG :)
I guess a forgotten world AP would be the other way to go. Maybe it could be like "Land of the Lost." Sleezestacks,Pylons and poorly planned rafting trips near waterfalls. Uncle Jack went searching too.
The Land that Time Forgot also had some strange DNA melting pot bubbling down the river with some bizarre evolutionary process going on. Plenty to mine there. And, it is always cool to see Nazis using a U-Boat deck gun to blow away Stegasauruses.
Cheers,
Zuxius
Any time dinosaurs or demons are involved, James Jacobs is the guy you want on that project. This thread reaffirms that truism. Thanks for eschewing the Eberron/4e names!
Personally, I would also probably become quite annoyed if the Tyrannosaur suddenly became able to fly, or breathe fire, just because it needed a "cool" ability. Instead, I'd really love to see Paizo take a page from the Beings of Pio in Moorcock's "The Vanishing Tower," and give the dinosaurs really high SR. Then it's not "just another dumb monster"... it's a dumb monster that you're forced to hack apart, at risk of being swallowed whole or bashed to death.
Types... I personally might include the following:
1. Large allosaurus (advance to Huge to make a Tyrannosaurus);
2. A Small velociraptor-type (advance to Medium for a velociraptor, to Large for a megaraptor);
3. An apatosaur;
4. A pterodactyl of some kind;
5. An anklosaurus. Maybe make him addicted to loco weed, and he rages like a barbarian when he's eating the stuff...
ANKYLOSAURUS!
I want my dwarven paladin to be riding a real tank! :D
Dromeosaurids should have pounce, tripping/grappling abilities, improved flanking. Even if the fossil record shows that the Dinonychus found in association were probably actually fighting over a carcass and eating each other, the pack hunting "raptor" is too popular and cool a pop-culture image to discard. Besides which, that paper could always be challenged with new evidence.
The current scientific evidence suggests that a sauropod's tail could break the sound barrier. As such, my diplodocoids, when they hit on a tail attack, deafen and stun. Think a whip propelled by forty tons of muscle.
At least some of the Dromeosaurids may have been pack hunters. Deininychus is a good possibility, as are the smaller raptors. The larger ones, such as utahraptor may have been lone hunters (similar to tigers and leopards)
As to diplodocoids, the tail likely did not breake the sound barrier as that would have damaged the tail (the tip would have "frayed"). However, the speed and power of the tail strike would have shattered bone. Recent findings also support the diplodocoids did rear up on their hind legs, which would make for a deadly stomp attack.
In a perfect world, we'd get a therizinosaur (giant reptilian feathered ground sloths with meter long claws FTW!), but I know I do not live in a perfect world.
I would love to see a therizinosaur, or its smaller cousin the falcarius.
Wow, I feel bad, as a dinophile, I'm coming in waaay late to this thread.
1) I'd say 5-6 is good for the entry.
2) T-Rex is iconic. Triceratops is iconic. Velociraptor (or at least the Jurrasic Park steroid infused velociraptor/deinonychus) is iconic. A sauropod is likewise iconic, but less specifically so. Apatasaurus/brontosaurus works although I think Brachiosaurus is more recognizable to the current worldview thanks to Jurrasic Park. I think then that, to preserve the utility of dinosaurs as encounters, you need a flyer and a swimmer, so a pterasaur and a plesiosaur. I'd say Pteradonon and Plesiosaur personally, despite that I would love to see a Kronosaurus.
3) Put an advancement note in the entry that indicates how other similar species could be plotted out. So a T-rex has his advancement of 19-36 HD (Huge); 37-54 HD (Gargantuan). Add one extra line of "Gigantosaurus 28: 29-46 HD (Gargantuan), 47-64 (Collosal). Now you have a way to easily stat up one if you like. Velociraptors could have a tag for Megaraptors, Triceratops could have a reverse tag for Monocloneus or Torosaurus (A tower shield made out of that skull is epic looking!). Apatosaurus could have a tag for Brachiosaurus, despite the physialogical differences, statistically they should be fairly similar. Pteranodon could have tags for Ramphyrnicus, or Quetzocoautl (hate that spelling) or both. Plesiosaur could have Elasmosaur advancement listed.
You could also have a micro-entry at the end of the main entry, like the way Scrags and Merrow are listed in the Troll and Ogre entries. Litle things that make small changes, like Torosaurus trading Improved Natural Attack (Horn) for Improved Natural Armor.
4) I have no problem with minor special abilities, like poisons and such. Anything we have seen in regular animals is certainly fair game. Although skin imprints have given us a fairly good idea of what the outside generally looks like, so visually obvious abilities need to be subtle. An apatosaurus with porcupine quills (thus doing retributive damage like a barbed devil) just looks a bit...off. But a row of spines that it can raise or lower, like a stingray, that could be done. The could be poisonous, or could operate like a howler's spines, as a sort of secondary weapon attack of opportunity or such.
5) First, a total agree on getting some art that keeps pace with the current science. Second, I totally agree with James regarding the naming convention. The one time my players asked (unsuprisingly after the MM3 gave them new names), I said that the culture which had the first experiences with dinosaurs spoke a language that sounds like Latin, and the names stuck since explorers who didn't speak the language would still get the gist of natives pointing and shouting "Tyranosaurus!". Since my orcs sound like Germans, my elves sound French, and my Gnolls sound Swahili, nobody had a problem with this. Now if they could just deal with the fact that halfling sounds like Japanese.
I put this in as an unrelated note to my previous post. Wasn't there a 3rd party booklet that had psionic T-Rexes? That actually got really really freaking smart after like a hundred years or so? That book seemed awesome to me, wish I had the cash at the time to snag it.
It's true that you could provide an option with a "land before time" sort of idea, where dinosaurs exist in a place where the normal rules don't apply as much, so you could give them all high SR. It's an interesting idea, but it would be more of due to the enviorment they lived, so it would be better suited as a template. Would make the native pygmy barbarians a good bit scarier too.
Creative Director
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I think t-rex should get two of hand attacks with -5 to hit and deal 1 damage. Just to mock those useless little forelimbs :)
Thing is... those forelimbs weren't useless. They were little compared to the rest of its body, but new research indicates that the bones in each arm could support muscles that could give each arm enough strength to lift like 500 pounds or more. They were probably used to help hold food in the mouth or for mating or something like that.
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So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
1- A good show? about 12 I think. : 1. Tyrannosaurus Rex, 2. Triceratops, 3. Stegasaurus, 4. Deinonychus, 5. Apatosaurus, 6. Ankylosuarus, 7. Dilophosaurus, 8. Pteranodon, 9. Elasmosaurus, 10. Compsognathus, 11. Dimetrodon, 12. Hadrosaurus
This would give us a good variety, provide threats for multiple levels, and provide the examples of the most reknowned ones.
2) 1. Tyrannosaurus Rex, 2. Triceratops, 8. Pteranodon, 9. Elasmosaurus
giving us diferent threats for diferent areas.
3. Its not that important. its a 'like to have'
4. Sure if youd rather.
5. I think itd be ok to give them slight boosts, as long as its possible...for instance: Giving T-Rex a Fear attack with his roar wouldnt be that far off kilter. Giving Ankylosaurus Special Armor that was resistant to most attacks also doesnt suspend belief too far. Id stay away from having Fire breathing T-Rex's and Spike throwing Stegasuarus. Try to stay in the relams of 'possible'
6. hmmmm good question, I dont think they hit the nail on the head. Its not like T-Rex is unbeatable, but boy he should be scary. They arent just a lot of hit points, as they have been stattud up so far. I have faith Paizo will do them justice.
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As to whether or not dinosaurs "belong" in the game... if they don't then neither do dire animals. And if there are no dire animals or dinosaurs in the game, the Animal monster type gets too nerfed.
The purpose of the Bestiary is to present a large range of creatures for many styles of play, and over the years,the monster manuals for the various editions of the game have usually had the same basic mix of monsters with slight variations; the 4th edition MM broke that tradition more than any other edition, but for the first three, the mix of monsters is relatively similar. And dinosaurs are in all three.
So! to leave dinosaurs out entirely would be to marginalize the campaigns that DO have them as part of their world. Since that would include marginalizing our own campaign world (there are dinosaurs in the Darklands, in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and in Garund, and in other parts of the world as well if only as subjets for eccentric menageries and on "guard dog" duty for crazy folk)... Dinos are in the book.
Just throwing the idea out there, but why not have a "Dinosaur Template"? Kinda like the way Dragons were done in the MM.
This way you can have the base dino and then add additional information as needed.
Ex,
T-Rex (type Dinosaur)
HP 135, Spd 40ft
Size: Huge
Skills: Stealth +6,
Feats: Swallow Whole
This will save room with stat blocks and add flavor text, tactics, etc.
Thing is... those forelimbs weren't useless. They were little compared to the rest of its body, but new research indicates that the bones in each arm could support muscles that could give each arm enough strength to lift like 500 pounds or more. They were probably used to help hold food in the mouth or for mating or something like that.
I was just about to post this! You beat me to it. Racial bonus to their already ludicrous grapple check, perhaps?
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Just throwing the idea out there, but why not have a "Dinosaur Template"? Kinda like the way Dragons were done in the MM.
This way you can have the base dino and then add additional information as needed.
Ex,
T-Rex (type Dinosaur)
HP 135, Spd 40ft
Size: Huge
Skills: Stealth +6,
Feats: Swallow WholeThis will save room with stat blocks and add flavor text, tactics, etc.
I'm not particularly interested in saving room with stat blocks to that extent, though. The way the dragons were presented in the MM actually makes an already tough to run monster even more difficult, and you basically have to rebuild their stat blocks anyway when you use them, especailly if you use them in a print adventure.
Also, dragons are essentially the same thing. Dinosaurs are not. It'd be just as easy to make an "animal template" as it would be a "dinosaur template."
Put another way: If something like a donkey or a toad gets a full stat block in a book, the dinos better get full stat blocks too.
And dragons too, while we're at it, but that's another long thread subject.
What are you guys all talking about? Don't use those weirdo names here. Whats a veloseeraptor? Be real.
I want in that book some longnecks, a sharptooth or course, a threehorn, a bigmouth, and, of course, a spiketail. Maybe a flyer, too. But use the proper names, people.
So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
Definitely keep dinos in there. I've found them useful in my campaign before, particularly in more wild settings. You never know what's lurking in the deep regions.
On to some answers:
1. 4-6 is a good start. I'd love over a dozen, but books space is limited.
2. T-Rex (advancement options for big bads and for small can cover the Jurassic Park raptors), Triceratops, a flying dino, some kind of brontosaurus or bronto like. With some quick work, flippers and a swim speed you've got an aquatic version too.
3. If you need the space, do 4. Then save some for the next Bestiary.
5. Good grief no! Bites, claws, tail slap, natural armor, weapon focusing, improved crits, poisons/disease carriers, grappling, swallowing whole. The list goes on for what can totally and easily be added, and if a GM doesn't like it, they don't have to use it. But giving us options of any kind and flavor is never a bad thing.
6. When it comes to stats, not every dino is a slow lumbering creature. Some should have a Dex bonus, a decent reflex save, and a movement rate faster than a slow dwarf in full plate.
Hope this helps.
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1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
1) 4-5 would be good.
2) Ankylosaurus (spelling is probably way off, but the turtle looking one with the club tail), that spitting dinosaur from jurasic park, the t-rex, the stegosaurus, and the triceratops.
3) I've never used the dinos from the mm so to me not at all, I can't even remember which ones made it or not.
4) I'd rather see the spitting dino than the velociraptor, but either is cool.
5) Well the reason I chose the ones that I did was because other than the t-rex its easy to imagine special attacks for these dinos, the Tric could have a charging gore attack along the lines of the minotaur, the spitting dino obviously spits acid, the stegosaurus and ankylosaurus could both have tail swipe attacks that had different effects to represent their different tails, and the T-rex could be your classic bite/swallow whole monster. I really don't think we need stats for brontosaurus or any passive leaf eaters, at least not with the first bestiary.
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I don't know why there wouldn't be some poisonous dinosaurs, and I think spitting attacks or the like could be fine as long as you gave them to existing species instead of making up new types whole cloth. But in general I think the fossil record supports much cooler abilites than the current stats give them credit for. Some examples:
* Tyrannosaurs: augmented criticals (incredible jaw strength), disease (like modern day komodo dragons), bleeding wounds (serrated teeth), frightening presence (it's a T-rex!)
* Deinonychosaurs: pounce/rake (they already have these, but they're still perfect fits), improved flank or other pack hunting bonuses, camouflage (like the ranger ability... this could be terrifying).
* Triceratops: impale (free grapple and continuing damage on a critical hit), shield rider (riders can get cover behind the neck frill), automatic bull rush and extra damage on charge attacks.
* Pterodons: Flyby attack with improved grab, so they can carry PCs back to their clifftop nests. Bonus damage for diving charges. A line about using them as mounts, since any encounter that starts with someone on the back of a flying dinosaur is made of win.
* Big sauropods: Crush/trample attacks, deafening whip-cracks with their tails, tail sweeps that hit everything in a wide swath and knock targets down on a hit. Super bonus cool points for rules on climbing up onto their backs, or for any picture that shows a dinosaur with a howdah.
* Stegosaurs: Defensive stance with crazy AoO bonuses. Knockback if struck by the thagomizer (best word ever).
* Ankylosaurs: Tail sweeps that stun. Free attacks when flanked. Crazy high AC and fortification, but with a soft underbelly (encouraging nimble PCs to dive underneath, or work together to try to flip it over).
I bow to you, most impressive ideas listed here, and thank you for listing the ankylosurus my favorite dinosaur in your list.
So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
6) Is there anything in particular with how dinosaurs have been stattud up in the game before that rubs you the wrong way that you'd like to see changed?
1) I think there should be about 4 or 5 Dinos
2) T Rex, Velociraptors, Pteradactl, and a dino that does somthing special like the poison throwing dino from jurasic park
3)Not very important
4) I would rather just have the Velociraptor
5)I would like them to have some new abilities that make them more then HP and a bite
6)I would like to have a domisticated style for a mount Dino but maybe not til Beastiary 2
And could you and Snorter keep your amicable bickering elsewhere, in case somone flags you who doesn't know the two of you?
Apologies, Charles and others. He really does get my goat sometimes, and I overreact. He understands, some of you may not. Hence the apols. More on-topic and less abusive in future.
Matt
(must stop drinking so much!)
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Something for many dinosaurs (and many other animals) would be adding Intimidate to their skill list. Most animals prefer threat displays to actual fighting, when possible, as even the smallest actual injury can lead to infection and death.
If a tyrannosaur roars to spook prey, they should be suitably 'spooked.'
Something for many dinosaurs (and many other animals) would be adding Intimidate to their skill list. Most animals prefer threat displays to actual fighting, when possible, as even the smallest actual injury can lead to infection and death.
If a tyrannosaur roars to spook prey, they should be suitably 'spooked.'
That's actually a good point. Most monsters that have some kind of fear causing roar aren't normal animals, and yet lots of normal animals do this, and are, indeed, pretty intimidating when they do so.
Agrred on the intimidation bit. Current science suggest some of the dinos had an impressive vocal capacity.
1) Five would be best, to cover the basics. Large and small carnivore, horned, armored, sauropod. Pterosaurs and aquatic reptiles aren't dinosaurs anyway, and IMHO, there are a lot of similar animals and magical beasts whose stats could be used as proxies for these creatures.
2) T. Rex, Velociraptor, Triceratops, Stegosaurus.
3) It really isn't all that important. Especially since Elasmosaurus is an aquatic reptile, not a dinosaur, despite popular misconception. We also don't need three dromaeosaurs.
4) Having one dromaeosaur (velociraptor) that starts at medium and advances to huge would be fine by me. Personally, I've found that megaraptors are incredibly poor monsters that get very little benefit from their size, and wouldn't mind having them cut entirely.
5) I have no problem with spicing up dinosaur combat options, I just think maybe we should depict dinosaurs in a way that is consistent with the "popular" depiction to keep them instantly recognizable. Instead of tacking on exotic attacks, some effort should be put into emulating how we think they hunt, and the classic images of what we see them do in movies.
6) Etobeholder's idea of giving the T. Rex's bite a bleeding or diseased effect and Frightful Presence like a dragon has some real merit.
Swallow Whole should be removed from the T.Rex, since even something the size of a human is probably more comfortably chomped into two pieces before being swallowed. Not to mention, the whole "muscular action closes the wound" after someone cuts their way out of it's gizzard being ridiculous. Instead, it should have a wounding (or diseased bite) and the Snatch feat, allowing it to snap up a smaller creature in his jaws, dealing automatic bite damage each round it holds and shakes the victim, and giving it the option of flinging them like a ragdoll if it is more curious or angry than hungry (like one did to Ian Malcolm in the first Jurassic Park novel). I also think the T.Rex should have the option of stepping on a smaller creature to pin it to the ground, immobilizing it, and leaving the Rex's jaws free to attack other targets.
I personally also think that the velociraptors taloned feet should be treated in a manner similar to constrict. Once the raptor has hit with a bite or foreclaw, it can use improved grab to initiate a grapple, and then bring it's raking talons to bear, doing automatic damage each round. Giving them some stealth and teamwork benefits would also be interesting, but care should be made not to make them clearly superior to wolves or chimpanzes in this regard.
That's actually a good point. Most monsters that have some kind of fear causing roar aren't normal animals, and yet lots of normal animals do this, and are, indeed, pretty intimidating when they do so.
Quite so. It'd be interesting to see Intimidation effects in a larger number of creatures, not even just Dinosaurs.
If Human Fighters or Barbarians can, why not?(any ability is 'paid for' by contributing towards CR, so I don't see the problem)
5. Maybe a treatment like we get in the revisted book. Alternate versions with quills, or poison, or disease. This would only take a couple of lines of text to add several new varieties.
Striking out in a slightly more bold direction, what if you had a group of monster feats that allowed some special attacks/defenses. Or something like the templates in the monsternomicon. I think they were called quickplates? With them, you could quickly make a faster creature, or a tougher creature, or a pack leader. This could give some options for all animals, and would keep the base animals from being too funky for use as companions/familiars/mounts.
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If you came up with an advancable stat block for the following, you'd pretty much cover most Cretacious dinos:
Large theropod like Tyrannosaurs
Small theropod like raptors and their ilk
Ceratopsians
Hadrosaurs
Giant sauropods
They are all sufficiently differentiated to warrant a separate entry and would have a varied degree of Ex abilities. Don't forget to add feathers to the illos! :)
Don't forget that dinosaurs also could have evolved into sapient creatures. IMO the kobold bears an uncanny resemblance to a Troodon. It'd be pretty neat to imply that they are basically highly evolved versions of this animal that went underground to avoid pedators and the last mass extinction.
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1. As many as needed.
2. the T-Rex and the Triceratops are obviously must-haves. Raptors as well, should get a stat block (call them velociraptors, and add advancement rules for deinonycus and utahraptor). Then, one of the other popular Ornischians, probably ankylosaur, as that would be the most dynamic combatant.
Ive always rather liked Allosaurus (cooler head, and arms), so some sort of large/huge carnosaur might be in order. All the various "classics" like stegos and sauropods might be nice, but frankly have limited usefulness. There's probably no need to stat up any hadrosaurs, for example.
3. Yep, just use advancement rules, maybe with a few clauses (example: megaraptor gets improved grab)
4. Use whatever species of raptor you want that would count as medium-sized. Be it Pyroraptor or Dromeosaur. They can scale up from there. And make sure the artwork has feathers.
5. This sounds like a fine idea. I honestly dont have a problem with it, especially the spitting dilophosaur (no frill, though). I grew up with Jurassic Park. Hells, give the carnotaurs chamelionic abilities, and the compies anesthetic bites if you want. It sort of fits the pulpy pathfinder flavor.
Make sure to give even the "mundane" ones cool attacks. tail sweeps, augmented criticals, the works. Light fortification for the Ankys.
A way out-there idea would be to make raptors humanoids (avian) with +0 LA. +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int, Scent, No automatic weapons proficiency, 3 natural attacks (plus a special talon leap attack), and +2 Stealth/Perception.
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And a word to "icthyosaurs/elasmosaurs/dimetrodons arent dinosaurs" nit-pickers, EVERYBODY SHOULD KNOW THAT BY NOW. aside from the scientific meaning, the word dinosaur might as well mean "big, extinct lizardy thing." And we're talking about a game in which regual spiders are "Vermin," but phase spiders are Magical beats. And so are owlbears. Thus, a phase spider has more "in common" with a flightless bird with retrogressed forelimbs than it does with a regular spider
(and I stand by my assertion that owlbears are flightless birds with claws on their wings, like young hoatzin. The "hairy" effect is caused by a coat of psudofeathers (like the Kiwi))
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I shot this sumbich in Lake Ray Hubbard with a fn-fal. I donated his bones to the museum, and that's how it got it's name.
Tasted like scallops.
So, let us assume that there will be dinosaurs in the Pathfinder Bestiary. A relatively safe assumption, since every edition of the game's core monster book has had them since 1st edition, yes?
So, working on that assumption, I would love to hear folks answer the following questions:
1) How many dinosaurs is the right amount to do a good show of it?
2) What four dinosaurs would you hope to see in the book more than any other?
I think 3 dinosaurs would suffice. One large herbivore, one large carnivore (T-Rex) and Deinonychus.
3) How important is it to maintain all five dinosaurs from the MM? Can we get away with just one dromaeosaurid (probably the deinonychus), with the assumption that one can make a megaraptor by simply advancing the deinonychus?
It is not very important to keep all five and yes, you could easily get away with just one Dromaeosaurid.
4) If #3 above is true, would it better to replace the deinonychus with the velociraptor? Velociraptor is more well-known these days, and it's easy enough to say that a velociraptor advanced up one size category is a deinonychus.
It doesn't really matter to me. I like Deinonychus, but Velociraptors are indeed better known these days.
5) Dinosaurs don't have to be boring. They don't have to simply be hit points and a bite attack. Currently living animals have a wide range of biodiversity, with special attacks like poison, constriction, electricity generation, stunning attacks, ranged attacks (like tarantulas flicking poison hairs, archerfish spitting balls of water, or cobras spitting poison), and the like. Would it be too strange to give some dinosaurs a bit more flavor by giving them attacks that aren't necessarily supported by the fossil record?
I am not keen on giving dinosaurs stuff not supported by the fossil record beyond reasonable assumptions. We already have dinosaur-derived creatures in fantasy, ranging from dragons to the Tarasque, that do that - let's keep dinosaurs as close to their RL extinct cousins as possible.