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Oops 15th level is 8th level spells, so 8th and 9th level spells are epic 7th are too but will call them the top end of the non-epic feel of the game. Anyway 15th level+ is epic feel already give access to epic feats at that level, tack on a system where characters can continue to level above 20 and be done.
I'd like to see the game cap at 20.
As a few earlier poster suggested, I'd like to be able to trade gobs of XP for extra hps, bab, sneak attack dice, or spell slots, etc.
Calling these feats would work but that assumes they would all be of equal value and of course they are not. Charge a set amount of xp for each different increase and handle further progression piecemeal.
Does anyone have a copy of the 1E AD&D PHB (man, that was abowl of alphabet soup)? This could give an inspiration on how to handle levels or twenty. Just a thought from a chimp!
There is a "high-level handbook" for 2nd edition that did a pretty respectable job of addressing high level play that 'ports over to 1e quite nicely. A great many of the proto-concepts presented in there have filtered into 3e and 4e.
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Does anyone have a copy of the 1E AD&D PHB (man, that was abowl of alphabet soup)? This could give an inspiration on how to handle levels or twenty. Just a thought from a chimp!There is a "high-level handbook" for 2nd edition that did a pretty respectable job of addressing high level play that 'ports over to 1e quite nicely. A great many of the proto-concepts presented in there have filtered into 3e and 4e.
I was talking more along the lines of how in 1E characters over 20th don'tm get any more hit die just thier hit point bonus from thier Constitution scores etc.
I was talking more along the lines of how in 1E characters over 20th don'tm get any more hit die just thier hit point bonus from thier Constitution scores etc.Does anyone have a copy of the 1E AD&D PHB (man, that was abowl of alphabet soup)? This could give an inspiration on how to handle levels or twenty. Just a thought from a chimp!There is a "high-level handbook" for 2nd edition that did a pretty respectable job of addressing high level play that 'ports over to 1e quite nicely. A great many of the proto-concepts presented in there have filtered into 3e and 4e.
That remains the same in 2e, remember? :) 1e/2e characters don't can any more HD at all after "name level", nor *I think* do they gain additional hp from CON once they pass "name level".
Trust me, get that book if you can (without hemorrhaging tons of cash). I still have a copy (I believe), and the ideas in there are exportable with a bit of work.
I do believe I see your point - once a character has gained his capstone ability (in PRPG), they would stop gaining HD, advancing in BAB and base saving throw progressions and so on.
What are you looking for conceptually?
I am looking for a way to continue to play characters beyond 20th level.
What are you looking for mechanically?
I am looking for a system that doesn't have balance issues with the mathematics behind it. In 3e Epic, game mechanics had to be changed to try and alleviate any issues with the base math of the game. If a character continues to progress down the same path of advancement after 20 there will be serious issues with characters making saves for bad saves and hitting monsters when they have low BAB progression. A level 30 fighter would have a +30 to hit while a wizard would have a +15 if the BAB progressed as it did before epic.
I didn't like the way that 3e handled this problem. It felt like I was learning a new game. The changes they introduced were also not balanced for all classes. I felt that Epic Spell casting was to weak while melee classes were to strong.
In my opinion the only way for the game to progress after 20th is to freeze the math at 20th. No more BAB or save progressions. Instead of advancing the core class I would have epic characters acquire a epic destiny similar to epic in 4e. Each Epic destiny or path can have talents, abilities, and spells that it acquires as you gain epic levels. Now to make this clear I am not saying to copy 4e powers and such. But instead look at the idea of epic destinies used as epic classes.
A benefit to such a system is that with the core math locked at 20th level you can design epic monsters that can be fought by regular 20th level characters with a bit of luck. Epic monsters should have better abilities but shouldn't have more hp or higher defenses than the ones that already exist.
An epic system designed in this way will allow easier integration into people's campaigns. You also have the chance to have more options in less space since you wouldn't have to introduce lots of new base mechanics for advancing characters.
Epic magic items should also be handled similarly. Instead of gaining a +6 or higher weapon just add a epic item ability to it. That way the base math isn't skewed by epic loot.
Epic magic can be designed as either a subset of 10th level or higher spells, or it can be added in as powers characters gain as they progress through their epic path.
Ideally such a book would cover 30 or more such paths. That way players have ways to play liches, mummies, demigods, arch mages, legendary warriors, master thieves, and such all in one book.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
A level 20-25 playtest would be ideal for any epic system. We need to be able to offer our input on any such system changing ideas.
Any deal breakers?
If it doesn't get made then I would be annoyed. Also if it was to broken or to similar to what 3e epic was I would probably not use it nor recommend it. As a side note the Epic Level Handbook really burned me on 3e. I was really looking forward to it but it really didn't meet my expectations. I don't want to repeat that experience.
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What are you looking for conceptually?
I am looking for a way to continue to play characters beyond 20th level too.
What are you looking for mechanically?
Keep the rules exactly the same as levels 1-20. Fighter 21 is like Fighter 20, but with a BAB of 21 and an extra feat (and the continuation of all other fighter abilities; armor training, weapon training, etc.)
In most cases they stopped getting extra HD at around 9 or so.
They got additional HP = to a class modifier (warriors got 3, wizards got 1) + their con modifier. So a warrior at level 20 leveling to 21 with an 1 con got 7 extra HP. A Wizard leveling from 20 to 21 with the same 18 con got 3 extra hp (Ranger, Paladin and Fighter were the three classes that could get a con bonus fo greater than +2).
Actually, after they took their last true HD (usually at 9th, except for Magic Users and Thieves if I remember correctly - and Rangers in 1ED), they took only a flat hp value without any Constitution bonus - 1 for Magic Users, 2 for Clerics (and Rangers 1ED), 3 for Fighters and Paladins (and Rangers 2ED) (I don't really remember if Thieves got 1 or 2 bonus hp).
It's true that only 'martial' characters got a Con bonus greater than +2 (17= +3, 18= +4, and so on) on their HDs - again, only for their first 9 levels.First edition if memory serves had spell progression going out for up to 29th level characters.
Yes, I remember a spell level cap around that level - I must play again to the old SSI's Pools of Darkness CRPG to see when the spells caps...
I believe that - as well as I can recall at least - that virtually all of the PC games (SSI) were 2e-based. I am of course NOT sure, but then, the PHB charts were pretty easy to extrapolate. Also, module H4 brought up the fun fun joy joy of 100th level characters - extrapolating what it meant under the rules set of the time - and it was pretty impressive how very, very little it really meant for most characters to be that level as compared to roughly 20th level. (Depending on the class.)
Well, unless you had 1e magic missiles ... but other than that!
^_^
Although the 100th level fighters literally had more attacks/round against "mooks" (aka bottom-end-NPC warrior types and commoners) than they could hope to use. In 3e terms, such a fighter could literally butcher 100 mooks per round as a class ability, so long as they were within, say, a radius equal to the fighter's land speed and the terrain was relatively unobstructed. Of course, if such a Fighter - in PRPG terms - has a good enough Acrobatics bonus, "difficult terrain" is presumably a non-issue.
Ah, the good old days, where 0-level NPCs were the norm and Fighters got the most attacks/round, period. Good times, good times ...
What are you looking for conceptually?
I'd like to be able to play adventures where the stakes are proportionately higher than in the standard game.
The standard game has a lot of "look but don't touch" parts to it.
* Look at Baba Yaga's Hut, but don't go near it.
* See the blight that is Treerazor, but know that you can't do anything about it.
Conceptually, I want a game that breaks down those types of taboos, where some levels of adventure are just 'off limits'.
What are you looking for mechanically?
I agree with James Jacobs, in that there should be a high level cap, so that designers know what is at the top of the scale and can design downwards. I am not adverse to starting over at a Level 1.. but the idea of a smooth transition from level 20 also sounds nice.
I definitely think one should be able to generate a starting high level character in this rule set and start playing from that point. There's a lot of burn out to getting to high level play. If folks want to try a high level game they should be able to just jump right in.. OR.. transition their existing Core Character.
I'd like it to be no more complex than the Core game.
The consequences of adventures at this level must be very meaningful.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
A kick-ass introductory adventure that tackles something really cool in the campaign setting.
Any deal breakers?
It needs Paizo quality. The other guys put a slapdash haphazard system together that doesn't work well. I don't want a repeat of that, so QA needs to be part of the development.
You also need to support it, by drawing up inspiration from the Campaign Setting. You need to support it with adventures. That might sound like a no-brainer, but I don't think it's quite that simple. High level play means the developers might be challenged to let go of some sacred cows and special toys for players to 'play with.' I won't automatically assume that Paizo Developers suffer with an issue of doing this, but I mention it as a cautionary note. The Whispering Tyrant, the Aboleth Secret Empire, Nex.. All of these might have to be part of the adventures that high level characters can challenge themselves with. Nobody will want to see an Elminister, because that is why High Level Rules exist, to open that level of fun and excitement to the players.
<20+ level characters> For the most part they're more background characters than active players, but when they DO get involved it's for stakes that matter.
Bingo. This is the problem that seems to occur when dealing with "epic" (or even just high-level) characters, IMO: Constant adventuring, with little "down time" between crises, tends to cheapen the feel of world-shaking events (or, if those are not used, the reasons the characters get involved in the first place). It also makes the campaign feel a bit silly in that all of the threats that the characters are dealing with now didn't (in many cases) already significantly affect the setting.
There are two relatively quick and easy fixes for this:
1) Assume significant stretches of time (months, seasons, years) between adventure arcs, where the characters concentrate on "background" activities (magical item creation/research, running a business/church/guild/school, ruling a domain, court/local politics, etc.) that are brushed over in minimal detail (unless significant to the plot-line at hand)
2) "Semi-retire" the characters to mostly NPC status as part of the setting, giving the GM general guidance on goals and preferences for development, but with the ability to bring them back to "active status" when the need arrises
Both of them require that the gaming group gets involved in/interacts with the campaign setting outside of the minimum constraints of the current adventure, establish lasting/recurring relationships with NPCs, set long-term "whole person" goals, and generally have characters act like people instead of just collections of abilities and modifiers.
I believe that - as well as I can recall at least - that virtually all of the PC games (SSI) were 2e-based. I am of course NOT sure, but then, the PHB charts were pretty easy to extrapolate.
I thought so initially, but I strongly believe it's 1st Edition;
- no damage caps to spells (personal records in Pools of Darkness: Delayed Blast - 207 damage, Fireball - 160 damage, Lightning Bolt - 160 damage, Cone of Cold - 152 damage, Magic Missile - 82 damage) (I've still my old record charts...)
- Rangers roll 2d8 at first level, have 11d8 at 10th level, huge damage to Giants (personal record: full attack 71+63 damage to a giant), spells from both Druid and Magic User list (up to 2nd level Magic Users spells and 3rd level Druid spells)
- Old racial caps (example: Dwarf Fighter 7th or 8th or 9th depending on Strength score) (Dragonlance games had different racial caps, Forgotten Realms used the standard ones)
These are the most prominent I noticed (perhaps there are more).
When I started to play to Baldur's Gate 1 I immediately noted the difference.
I believe that - as well as I can recall at least - that virtually all of the PC games (SSI) were 2e-based. I am of course NOT sure, but then, the PHB charts were pretty easy to extrapolate.I thought so initially, but I strongly believe it's 1st Edition;
** spoiler omitted **
These are the most prominent I noticed (perhaps there are more).
When I started to play to Baldur's Gate 1 I immediately noted the difference.
Oooo ... fun!
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What are you looking for conceptually?
Well first I will start by saying what I think epic means, least to me. Epic means characters reach a point where they are doing world saving adventures, able to go the planes and battle creatures on their home planes.
The problem with that is, well levels 16-20th already kinda fill that roll.
What are you looking for mechanically?
My big requirement would it would be a smooth progression from the existing levels. It shouldn't be jarring or feel like you suddenly started a new class or something.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
I am skeptical, but willing to give it a try. If it appeals to me. What would that take? Honestly i am not sure.
Any deal breakers?
If it starts feeling super heroish or doesn't feel like a smooth progression from the previous levels.
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I think two aspects that would really help divorce from 16-20 Epic, and 21+ Epic is if those characters could go and exist on the other planes for longer time periods, (as oppossed to going there for one mission and leaving before their minutes per caster level spell protections are done). Epic could be when they start becomming more like outsiders, able to exist outside the mortal worlds.
Another thing would be if they themselves recieve some sort of small home plane. I've always loved the concept of it, but my DM's always sort of ignored it. As a DM though, it is not at all hard to build hooks, adventures, and challenges are the party having to defend their home, build it up, and even have to act as ambassaders to the kingdoms that their plane might open up gates near, (or keep those portals hidden).
What are you looking for conceptually?
The idea that your characters are doing more important things than dungeon crawls. The adventures for epic level-characters should be about running kingdoms, wizard schools, and traversing distant parts of the world (or even the planes) as explorers and seekers of knowledge.
Honestly, the best idea would be for an adventure that has the old epic characters in positions of power and prestige in the world, and the players also make low-level characters that do missions FOR the epic characters. That way you can switch in and out of control of each group when you need to.
Hmmm....I smell a campaign that needs writing. *picks up pen*
What are you looking for mechanically?
Something that isn't clunky. Learning an entire new ruleset might be too problematic. I really think the best thing would be to have Epic Classes that literally start at level one again, albeit still using all of the contributions from non-epic levels. For instance, a monster might have an Epic Armor Class of 16, which is really something like 36 to a non-epic character.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
I'll give it a look no matter what, but what is needed is an epic campaign/story arc to introduce it and show how it can be well-implemented.
Any deal breakers?
Nah, I'll look no matter what. I guess I won't use it if it's too complicated.
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Has anyone ever played the White Wolf Scion Game? The idea is that you are a child of a deity, in the modern world. Typical WW style, character creation is a unique point buy. [In WW, you have seperate pools to add to the D&D equivalent of your stats, your skills, your background feats, your powers and your gear are all seperate].
The idea with Scion, (and just bear with me a moment to see how it relates to Epic), is that there are three distinct stages of the game. Literally, three different games. You start out as a Scion, literally a superpowered human. When you develope your divineness, called Ichor, you can literally translate to Demigod status. When you do this, you move on to the next actual book. Your existing character get more points to add, exactly like in character creation, except that you can use both the new and old book.
Again, much later, when you have developed your Ichor higher, you ascend to deityhood, and once again get a whole new book, get to add even more point buy stuff for free, and this time extremely powerful abilities.
That would be truely awesome if PF did something like this. So when your character goes Epic, in a sense, you do actually start over from level one. You get to add more stats through a point buy to your old stuff, for free. For example, lets say you might get 10 ability points to add 1:1. You must increase at least three abilites, and only one of them can have up to five points into them. So you can add +5 strength, but you must add at to atleast 2 other stats, and they can only get +4. Epic skills might get one that add a +10 bonus, and can't fail on a nat 1. Things like that. It would be something outside the scope of nonEpic characters, but not superpowered in all ways.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
I am not interested in epic level play in any form. In 25 years of playing I don't think I've gone above level 16. May as well just cap it old school style or do a simple "keep getting hp, feats, and stat bumps at the relevant rate but nothing else." I would never spend money on an epic level product.
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I was talking more along the lines of how in 1E characters over 20th don'tm get any more hit die just thier hit point bonus from thier Constitution scores etc.In most cases they stopped getting extra HD at around 9 or so.
They got additional HP = to a class modifier (warriors got 3, wizards got 1) + their con modifier. So a warrior at level 20 leveling to 21 with an 1 con got 7 extra HP. A Wizard leveling from 20 to 21 with the same 18 con got 3 extra hp (Ranger, Paladin and Fighter were the three classes that could get a con bonus fo greater than +2).
First edition if memory serves had spell progression going out for up to 29th level characters.
Unfortuanately, I do not have a copy of any 1E/2E stuff anymore so I did get my information wrong. Sorry about that! However, I was thinking of using that as a basis for "Epic Characters" as I was saying with Turin the Mad. This way extreme high level play could stil happen and not be reality altering with players still being mortals (and all of the dangers assoiciated with). Anyway I assume you're right as far as hit point progression and spell levels went in 1E (again I have to assume thins because I don't have a copy of 1E).
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I would be happy if the levels just stopped at level 20.
At that level you get your shiny end class ability (if core and if prestige class it's usually before that).
After you hit level 20, you should start to gaine Epic Levels, though not in any particular class.
Example would be a Level 20 Fighter who gains another level would 20 Fighter/1 Epic.
No increase in saving throws I would think or attack and what not but maybe no matter what class you are you simply get a small bonus to HP (maybe just a solid 2 plus your con) and a bonus feat each level. MAYBE even a few skill points to throw down too.
Basically, K.I.S.S.
Screw epic feats. Screw epic spells.
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I would say that there should not be a separate system past 20. Keep the system the same past 20, or stop at 20.
(i.e. same system = Fighter 21+ has the same progression as Fighter 1-20)
I wouldn't ditch the idea of epic feats and expanded skills use... else why would you be paying for high level supplement? (i.e. I trust Paizo's team more than myself in regards to epic feats...)
NOTE: epic feats are already in the SRD, but would need to be adapted to the PRPG rules (i.e. cleave is different; dodge is different; etc. so should their epic counterparts be; and the new stuff like Agile Maneuvre might require an epic version, for example.)
Another area that needs to be revised is the pricing on Epic weapons. I think they were severely out of whack.
No increase in saving throws I would think or attack and what not
This becomes problematic, please don't forget that monsters use basically the same rules for continuing BAB and Saves that player's do, and often have HD in excess of 20 even in the non-epic rules.
Especially on the BAB level this will really hurt characters trying to resist Combat Maneuvers at 'Epic' levels. Considering that many epic style creatures are typically fairly big already having their increased BAB with HD vs a player character's almost static CMD in your take on epic would be very bad.
Screw epic feats
were being turned into high-level non-epic feats as WotC's 3.5 run was coming to its end. Or at least the effects were turning up in non-epic feats. Take a look at most of those epic feats and you won't really see much true power there in general. Those that are unbalanced should be fixed.
Screw epic spells
had an overly complex system in a point buyish way, which is always open to massive game breaking without DM intervention. That system of seeds could either be completely overhauled or ditched in favor of something else. Say the caster classes continuing to gain slots which could be used for metamagic high end spells, and/or increasing spell DCs/Caster-Level for some lower ones put in them, i.e. free Heighten Spell.
Screw epic spellshad an overly complex system in a point buyish way, which is always open to massive game breaking without DM intervention. That system of seeds could either be completely overhauled or ditched in favor of something else. Say the caster classes continuing to gain slots which could be used for metamagic high end spells, and/or increasing spell DCs/Caster-Level for some lower ones put in them, i.e. free Heighten Spell.
Buddy of mine had a fix for this involving using lower level spells (1st - 9th level) and adding factors to them. That way you don't have huge broad seeds, but rather those tailored for your specific needs. Using Improved Spell Capacity instead of "epic spells" and having limits on what could be done (I think DC 20-30 was 10th level, 31-40 was 11th, ect).
I played 2 Epic Campigns in my lifetime, and I loved it, not TOTALLY EPIC, but 23 and 25 respectivally, very cool.
So, what I think is, put some limits. Figure out what Gods powers would be and make so that Epic stuff comes no where near it. Deification is an AWESOME topic, but it's something for another book entirelly.
Scenarios like Darksun can help people understand what EPIC means, Forgotten Reals Characters and Ravenloft, are the best settings to understand this.
It's a smooth change, but with key features that make them different.
The spell progression u guys introduced at page 406 is AWESOME, really is, makes thing go smoother and cooler than ever before.
Epic is not Godlike, it's like Siegfried in mythology or something like that. (Before the dragonblood)
Epic play reminds me of that old TSR book Deities and Demigods and how at a certain level DMs start using it like the new monster manual. Except that once you beat those 'monsters' there really isnt any point to playing the game. At least not with those characters.
I'm just not interested in playing past level 20. That's an inherent problem with level based progression games. Eventually you "top out" and have nothing to do except fight monsters with ever-bigger numbers (i.e. stats) in mega-godzilla type fights.
That's the problem I had with Epic. Sure, you could easily stay at home and wait for the next tarrasque to show up and threaten the commoners, but to really get some XP and goodies, you had to fight prismatic dragons and such.
Bigger, badder foes are fun, but tying your otherworldy experience to the world you came from, and making it truly relevant, gets hard.
Stopped the Githyanki invasion; check. Closed the rift bringing demons into the world; check. Finally killed the uber-lich; check. Challenged the demi-god, changing the nature of the pantheon; check.
The common folks will never know how close they were to armageddon if you hadn't stopped it in the nick of time. They'd never believe you if you told them, anyway. It's probably better that they never know the truth.
What are you looking for conceptually?
Conecptually I am thinking about characters who surpass mortal limitations. Magicians that can destroy small countries with a single (if however complicted) spell, priests that can save a city from a tsunami, warriors capable of literally doing as much damage as a tank, etc.
What are you looking for mechanically?
This is quite obvious, solid and tested mechanics.
Ok, first I think that the different BAB and save progression that epic laid out was dumb, it made twinking very easy if you knew you were going into epic: if you wanted the abilities that a prestige class gave you but it had a crappy BAB, well then just wait until level 21 to take it and it doesn't matter. Spell seeds sucked, really everything that they did with casters in epic was bad, EXCEPT for the permanent metamagic feats where a caster could cast every spell of a certain level range with a metamagic feat applied to them without increasing the level of the spell. That was nice. Actually quite a few of the feats were really nice, very epic (pun not intended), I was especially fond of the arrow deflection tree (you mean I can reflect a dragon's breath weapon back on him now??? Where do I sign up???). That's all I can think of right now...
I'm not bashing the idea of an Epic Level Handbook. I probably wouldn't buy or use one, though. It's not really much fun when you are nearly immortal.
I wouldn't mind a smaller system detailed in a GM's Guide or something. Something that would end class advancement at level 20 but would grant special abilities upon advancement.
- I would do something like the following:
- HPs stop advancing or do so at a very slow rate (CON bonus)
- SkPs stop advancing or do so at a very slow rate (INT bonus)
- You get a special ability every "level" which could be 2 regular feats, an Epic feat, boost or acquire a class specific feature or anything that would make your character better without continuing to scale all of the number higher and higher.
- Provide a list of capstone abilities for multiclass characters. This could be rolled into epic feats that require a certain number of levels in two different classes.
Things just get too complicated when you advance much higher than 20th level. I like the idea of having a hard limit (level 20) where you have reached your mortal potential save for a few extra abilities that you pick up for "advancing". I know that it's boring and not worthy of it's own book but that's my opinion.
EDIT: Although now that I started reading the last page, it sounds like I'm not in the minority like I was at the start of the thread.
A few random and less random thoughts:
What I loved about the rolemaster system was that super-high level stuff was easy to integrate without really unbalancing very much. Sure a 150th level character would have insane attack bonuses, but another 150th level character would have roughly comparably insane defensive bonuses (particularly as any part of an attack bonus could be used to parry an attack, increasing a defensive bonus on the fly). Really high level spells are also achievable - 50th level spells exist in the system, but aren't "blow up the sun" powerful.
But, I think this kind of open-ended advancement works more naturally for d100 than for d20, where progression can be as slow as a 1-2% increase per level, rather than a necessary 5% per plus in d20.
However, in practice such high levels are hard to get to, and it leaves characters waiting forever to use really powerful stuff, which isn't as much fun. (The highest levels I played at were 18-20, and it felt somewhat like 9-11 or so in 1st edition D&D).
I would favor a system that has an even progression to level 25 or 30, and have no problem with capping levels at that point. Characters can still acquire wealth and magic, and may have to use their wits/allies a bit more if they want to try to defeat a really powerful demon lord or god. And that's ok, I think.
10th level spells (as in Arcana Evolved) would be good too.
I don't see any need for spells that blow up planets, or feats that enable characters to (non-magically) walk on air or other equally miraculous stuff. For me it just gets too silly too fast - and where do you go from there? How do you top it? If a fighter can jump to the moon (and back), where's the excitement in far more mundane things like saving a kingdom?
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Personally i've been running epic for years now, and i've come to a house ruled system that works for both me as a DM and my players. I would like to see something similar.
levels 1st-10th (99.99% of the worlds population)
levels 11th-20th (beyond normal limits)
levels 21st-30th (beyond mortal limits/demigod?)
levels 31st-40th (godhood - not really playable)
explanation for epic npc's - they are tied up in political business, they have retired and disappeared into the corners of the world, or they have simply ascended to godhood.
explanation for epic pc's - they are tied up doing what they wanted like retiring, running the wizards school, riding the world of lesser undead and demons, or raising a family.
rules - should feel normal, if I had to explain to 5 other gamers that now we have to spend a session or two converting your characters to continue playing they would all tell me to shove it! Base attack should continue as normal, saves should raise equally every other level (for balance issues), a spellcaster's or ability DC should no longer equal (10 + ability + effect) but (10 + 1/2 epic level + ability + effect).
Another words spells essentially have a DC for epic casters of (1/2 level + spell level + ability mod) A 26th level mage casting a 6th level spell with a +5 Int mod would have a DC of (13 + 5 + 6) = 24
Feats and skills should represent what an demigod can do. A fighter can hit everything around him with a whirlwind, while a demigod can sunder everyone's sword around him (for example). A epic barbarian can make a str check to break a stonewall, an epic bard can sing a song that swoons a city, an epic spellcaster can alter reality to her very whim, and epic ranger could follow tracks years old, an epic paladin could use divine influence on an army, an epic rogue could infiltrate the 9th devil lords lair and steal the divine contract for his soul.
I'm sorry for the long read, but epic has always been important to me. In my opinion, there is no reason you couldn't provide both rules:
-An easy transition into 21st to 30th or even 40th level.
-An easy way to play epic right from the get go (etc Disney's Hercules was born a demigod, but was still low level).
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In a campaign I'm running, there are two kinds of gods. There are the normal gods (the kind most people think of when they think gods in a D&D/pathfinder game), then there are the 8 supreme gods who created the universe and its rules. Now one of the characters is starting at a very low level, and his goal is to kill not only those normal gods, but even the 8 founders of the universe (and before you think I'm running a weird evil campaign, this character is actually chaotic good). Now what I'd like to see in epic play is truly EPIC abilities. If you progression to be similar to levels before 20, just use the guidelines in the core rulebook. But if we want levels beyond twenty to be the next step, the beginnings of something new and truly epic, it would be very nice to have a sourcebook. In my case particularly, my PCs tend to make very VERY epic goals (like slaying all the gods in the universe), which would be impossible for a mortal.
It is hard to have an "Epic" campaign to contiue for long. With me I would have the Hecatoncheire battle be the climax and have the heroes come back to thier home to a heroes' welcome and then end the campaign with "and our heroes lived happily ever after for the rest of their days1"
A Hecatoncheire (CR 59, IIRC)? That is a long campaign, unless you start the PCs at 50th level.
When the PCs reach the point where they can defeat a Hecatoncheire, they are more powerful than many deities. At this point "divine ascension" might make a better campaign ending.
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It is hard to have an "Epic" campaign to contiue for long. With me I would have the Hecatoncheire battle be the climax and have the heroes come back to thier home to a heroes' welcome and then end the campaign with "and our heroes lived happily ever after for the rest of their days1"A Hecatoncheire (CR 59, IIRC)? That is a long campaign, unless you start the PCs at 50th level.
When the PCs reach the point where they can defeat a Hecatoncheire, they are more powerful than many deities. At this point "divine ascension" might make a better campaign ending.
Oh, I was just using the Hecatoncheire as figure of speech. My point was that it is hard to keep an Epic campaign going and keep it interesting.
My point was that it is hard to keep an Epic campaign going and keep it interesting.
It depends on how you handle it, really. Short adventuring arcs with long periods of "down time" to create magic items, establish/manage churches/other organizations, run a business/guild, rule a domain, etc. are one way to handle it (either as interludes as part of a continuous campaign or as an opportunity to run other characters until the Epic PCs have to "come out of retirement" to meet a specific threat). Another is to have the PCs involved in planar exploration and intrigue; this works best if all of the PCs worship a single deity, a group of allied deities, or are associated with a powerful planar entity/organization. A third approach is to have a deity, group of deities, or powerful planar entity/organization that the PCs oppose, but can't defeat toe-to-toe; the PCs in this campaign are constantly ferreting out operatives and preventing the bad guys from accomplishing their nefarious goals (i.e., the Soviet Bloc vs. NATO and the U.S. during the Cold War).
As someone who has ran games from 1-40, and actually enjoyed epic play, Epic play failed in multiple areas:
1)Limited Character Roles:
In epic levels it becomes impossible to fill multiple rolls, and do "interesting" things. The numbers require that you min/max to be the best you can be in a single tiny sphere in order to even survive. This reduces roleplaying to spamming a single action repeatedly.
FIX:
The first major challenge of Epic design will be to correct the limited roles of characters. Simply freezing the progression at 21st level didn't help, and in some cases made this worse. Likely the best way to start on a fix would be to provide more teamwork abilities, and ways in which characters can use a standard action, so that clerics are not set to spam heals/defense, wizards set to spam damage, fighters spam attacks, and rogues spam... suck. Rogueish characters require more tactical options to make up for lower BAB's, fighters need variety in their attacks that will actually matter at higher levels (a few minor bonuses from weapon spec or combat expertise won't cut it here), and spellcasters need more intriguing options.
2)"Epic" Fails as a Concept:
The delineation between "epic" and "non-epic" is at once too sharp, and not meaningful enough. With the prior system presented, characters are supposed to magically change into something MORE at 21st level, gaining new types of abilities, access to qualitatively different feats/items/spells/etc., but instead they have weaker character progressions for the majority of their time in epic levels. Further, most of the Epic abilities that are worthwhile require 27th lvl, meaning that characters must spend 21-26 unable to take the truly "epic" feats.
FIX:
Don't make the distinction between epic/non-epic. Just put out a "High-Level Play Guide" or something that lists better stuff that can only be taken by characters meeting higher pre-reqs... Similar to PHBII, but with even higher pre-reqs, and more interesting options. Avoid the dichotomy of "Epic" play entirely.
3)The Rules are Confusing:
Rather than simply advancing on the same curve, suddenly everything changes. The "everyone advances at the same rate" rules is ridiculous and non-intuitive.
FIX:
Don't change the rules at epic. Simple enough. Epic feats are an unnecessary tag, especially if pre-reqs are set high (+18 BAB, 9th lvl caster, etc.). The only reason ever provided for changing the mechanics at 21st level was that "bonuses would quickly scale out of control," however in my experience this was NEVER the case. Levels are more slowly gained at this point in the game, the monsters more dangerous (and generally far out-matching their CR's when compared to a non-twinked character of equal level), and even if you go another 20 lvls, there is still not a game breaking difference in power levels.
4)21+ Levels = Spellcaster/Rogue levels
There are virtually no benefits for characters with +1 BAB classes in taking warrior classes past 21st level. Even monks lose incentive, as their saves do not increase as normal. It is far more profitable to pick up sneak attacks or spellcasting, or virtually anything OTHER than warrior levels, especially if there was even mild attention to gishing during non-epic (already has a few caster levels, or classes that provide neat tricks).
FIX:
The fix on this one is both simple, and very difficult. Pathfinder has already done a great deal to help, in the way the reward sticking to a single class (not only by making it scale better, but also by eliminating gishing and multi-classing at low levels, which in turn makes it less tempting to cross class at higher levels, since you would have to start over completely). Other fixes are to maintain pre-epic numeric progressions, and to give more feats/abilities. But this will probably be one of the greatest challenges of epic overall, on par with fixing epic spellcasting.
5)Magic Items are Ridiculous:
The cost on them is insane, as is the gold/level curve. It also obsoletes most of the pre-epic pricing standards ("of course everyone has +5 Inherent bonuses to everything and rings of +6 enhancement... its still cheaper than a +12 ring of Con). Finally, many of the abilities are JUST NOT WORTH THE COST.
FIX:
Reduce gold/level. Do not charge as much for epic items. Make epic items better and more interesting, though not necessarily radically more powerful. Reduce the bonus costs for magic items (no, super-holy is NOT a +6 bonus). Do not allow game shattering effects (Rings of Universal Elemental Immunity, Rings of Wizardry VIIII, etc.)
6)Spellcasting is... Wrong:
Epic Spellcasting is in fact not bad, at least conceptually. Using higher level spell slots to metamagic lower level spells all to hell, while a separate system exists to "create your own" wacky stuff is not a bad approach... However, in practice the spell seed system resulted in never being able to create offensive spells (300 DC's on stuff? Really?? And of course the SL is locked at 10th, and the damage spell seeds are worse than standard 7th-9th lvl spells), while being able to make extremely low DC buffs that break the numbers curve (Super mage armor with all kinds of weird bonuses tacked on, with mitigating factors to lower diffs into the castable range).
FIX:
This is not so terribly difficult to fix. Publish a limited number of spells within the 10th+ spell levels so that there is something more to do with them than cast Maxed Quickend Meteor Swarms. Then give guidelines for making more of those spells, but don't make it a separate system from the standard spellcasting/power/etc. system (and include Psi in your write up, for ease of play and integration purposes), but don't include weird DC checks to create them (tons of work, rewards min/maxers while punishing "normal" players). Rules will by necessity require some sort of point buy system for creation of spells, but numbers should be kept small and simple, and should not allow for huge deviations from the standard curves presented by the base system.
7)Epic Prestiges/Classes are Weak/Boring:
In an effort to create modularity and sync with the lower power level of 3.0 Core, the epic levels were created quite weak, and filled with empty spaces, especially when compared to Pathfinder. Yes, you get occassional epic feats, an occassional scaling numeric bonus to an arbitrary and mostly irrelevant value on your character sheet, and you get a few nice 1/day abilities that scale slowly in use/day but never actually improve. And this is epic... How?
FIX:
Modularity is good, but uniqueness and usability are necessary as well. Add scaling bonuses on the per day abilities (Epic Thwack Attack causes level in bonus damage, lasts for level round) and/or convert them to last an encounter or over separate rounds per day equal to level (the Pathfinder Paladin's Smite is a good template for the proposed adjustment).
Also, KEEP STANDARD LEVEL INCREASES! Saves, BAB, etc. go up on the same formula as pre-epic.
8)Monsters are Broken:
Monsters are not balanced in the slightest, and present far too many save/die powers... Even their basic attacks are functionally Initiative/Die powers, as whoever goes first wins. And the Epic monsters are limited in number... Theoretically many monsters can be advanced to provide a challenge, but that is generally a time consuming and painful process.
FIX:
Providing more balanced monsters would certainly be nice, but the real fix is in empowering GM's to quickly create/advance their own monsters. Tables that show monster hit dice and level increases for all the other types, perhaps going in 5's or 10's of hit dice. Advancement Templates (simply mathematically sound chunks of level/hit dice advancement) that you can slap on to provide your monsters with more power in the form of fighter levels or more hit dice, would provide another fix. Doing the math is the worst part of monsters, but once that barrier is removed, it gets far easier for the GM... So just remove that barrier. Yet another needed fix is to provide methods of survivability for monsters, other than AC/BAB; higher hitpoints, special damage regen/negation/resistance, etc.
Finally, monsters need special combat abilities that put them back in the realm of interesting combatants instead of hack-machines... Example:
By 20+ level everyone has a ring of freedom of movement. This negates all grappling monsters most powerful abilities. Other similar immunities are available that likewise negate other monster abilities. These monsters need a method for bypassing such protection other than Disjuncting all magic (waaaay too much of a pain to be worthwhile for the GM or the players).