Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
I like the idea of being able to go beyond 20L. I have run two long term campaigns that successfully went from 1st to around 30th level. In both campaigns, the story was to grand to be finished in 20 levels (could have been but the scope required more levels).
What epic play means to me?
I would say the continuation of the story that you've been doing. Sometimes people need to slay a god or form a planar conjunction or etc. With artifacts and special circumstances, this can be done anyway; however, it is more rewarding for players (imho) to be able to do these things themselves.
What is wrong with the current rules(brief)?
(1) City of Union. I've always had a problem with the idea that a city guard is an epic character. If you want the 1st and 30th levelers to rub elbows, then the Lady of Pain is a better idea. An entity that puts people in their place no matter how powerful they are. Probably reimagined as something else but the purpose would be the same.
(2) Spells. The epic magic system was to much math and to little output for my pc's to ever bother with. A better mechanic may be a level increase for the damage caps (say a 1:1 or 1:2 basis). Non-damaging spells could increase in HD (for those with caps) or increase in DCs.
What I would like to see?
(1) a meaningful fluff job where I can believe people/creatures/beings of this caliber have been around without them running everything.
(2) some sort of continuation of the basic classes without losing their flavor.
(3) a way to play epic campaigns without having a scientific calculator as a necessity [exponential increases in HP and damage output isn't the greatest way to do this]
Hope that helped
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If we were to do an Epic Level book, would you still be interested in said book if what we did with it kept the basic flavor of the ideas but did something entirely different with the crunch side of things?
Say, an Epic level book that didn't assume 21st level was the start, but went with an entirely new way to track character advancement (at the simplest, starting over at level 1 or something, but a level 1 epic character would be more powerful than a 20th level standard character).
Do you mean something similar to the Immortals (White) Box for Basic D&D?
Having never played Epic Level, this wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, although from a flow point of view I would be interested to see how it is implemented. If you have to rewrite your character, then maybe not, but if you can just add to your current character then I see no problem at all.
Other than a simple Epic Play rules book, I would also love to see an Epic Level adventure path. AP's always have the feeling of completing an "epic" quest, but I would love to see what would happen if it was really an "EPIC" quest! Know what I mean?
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RPG Superstar 2013
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One great thing about epic levels was the variety you could have in an epic game. You could have crazy characters early, full-attacking on a charge and firing eight shots with a longbow at anyhting they can see with no penalty - or you can have just another level. More powerful, sure, but just another level.
I think the 'slightly more powerful' epic levels resonate with most people, but I think an epic play book should please all comers. The people playing those games are people who buy books and love the game - they are really loyal hoby gamers and you want to make them all happy.
As much as I like the idea of these far-fetched, epic spell seeds, you can eliminate a lot of math and extra rules by just having a higher level of spells and/or extended features for schools and domains.
Finally, there are a lot of great players and DMs - not just great designers - writing for Paizo. Advice from some of them on keeping a campaign going, designing villains that transcend normal levels of play, or encounter design for really efficient parties would be very useful. Everyone flips to see the crunch in books, but an epic book needs to offer good advice as much or more as any other.
My two bits.
EDIT: Epic level adventure paths are an awesome idea for a lot of folks. Hopefully enough to merit some thought. Popular enough to publish regularly, though, probably not. Still - count me in.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
I kind of liked them, but never got a chance to really use them outside of statting the Dark Eight. I'm sure I'm in the minority though.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
I agree, the math was one of the problems. Some things did get over the top; balancing on a cloud.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.What are you looking for conceptually?
How to deal with certain spells I'm looking at you divination. With plenty of examples. How do you design adventures that can only be solved with the use of those spells? How can some spells be foiled occasionaly without the player thinking he is always being nerfed?
How do you make it interesting so that at level 21-23 you save the world and then from levels 23-26 you save it again, and then yet again from 26-30?
Designing worlds that take epic creatures and characters into account. Can't really have an evil 3rd level cleric creating a band of undead to terrorize and conquer the world if a 23rd level cleric with positive energy aura happens to ride by.
How do you have a church structure with the head of the church being 18th level and then you, a cleric, come back from a plane hopping adventure at level 25. Who is in charge of the church then? Maybe rules for running world/planar spanning organizations and empires. How does the economy work if you have enough gold to alter the gravity of your home planet?
The king is a 10th level noble, his army is 1000 level 2 warriors, I'm a 10th level Legendary dreadnought that has a total DR of 12/-. Mathematically, his army can't stop me unless all 1000 actually rolled a critical hit and did max damage, otherwise I could walk in naked and they pretty much couldn't hurt me. It would also make for a boring adventure if every few days someone came running up the the epic PC's and said "evil epic guy is invading our country by himself again, help us."
What are you looking for mechanically?
I liked the epic spell system, sure it had some warts and other issues, but I think the idea was sound. Clean that up a bit.
Some of the Epic prestige classes were cool.
Options not bigger numbers. When you are epic and you bull rush you can now push 10', boring. When you are epic and you bull rush as part of your bull rush you can do one of these cool manuvers.
If you do an epic book, don't for the love of all that's holy, create non-epic feats in a later suppliment that do what an epic feat can do.
Level 20 fighter then multiclasses to wizard and follows that for 20 levels should be the same as a wizard 20 that multis into a fighter for the next 20 levels.
I liked that wizards had to option to focus on epic spells, getting more spells per day, getting higher spell slots, or being able to cast many spells per round.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?Any deal breakers?
Deal breakers.... hmmm... Union.
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I really dig the concept of epic levels, but have yet to play a campaign that reaches epic levels. Still, I understand the problem of complicated math - particularly from a DM's standpoint!
What I'd like to see is a straightforward build to the current 1-20 levels. Nothing too hinky. Keep feat progression the same (and add epic feats). Keep BAB progression the same (but keep the limit on the number of iterative attacks).
One thing that lost me was the notion of spell seeds. What I would have liked to have seen was a means to augment, as a standard, one's current spell repertoire. A 30th level archmage should have magic missiles that put a 10th level mage to shame. This should be the standard.
Another thing would be to advance the notion of variant builds. Allow epic level characters to take on improved special abilities or alternative special abilities that really mean something. Not just a +1 to some attack, check or save, but rather something totally different (and memorable).
What I'm NOT interested in is rebuilding epic level characters to begin again at 1st level. I understand the concept of this, but it seems to defeat the purpose of taking your 20th level character to godhood . . . unless . . .
Maybe Paizo could consider a half-ground between 20th level and Divine Ranks. This could be the epic level we're looking for. It could still take into consideration the thoughts I raised before, but provide some really special special abilities. Just a thought.
What are you looking for conceptually?
Level 20+ has to happen on other planes. The Material Plane simply can't handle a bunch of level 20s duking it out, and no amount of fluff can handle that. No point in life when a lvl 20 is breathing down your neck.
What are you looking for mechanically?
Any mechanic that makes it so that whatever a character could do before becoming lvl 20+, he can still do.
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
An open beta, of course!
Any deal breakers?
Hmm...no beta? ;)
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So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
Make it Epic in scope rather than power. Think along the lines of the BECMI or Birthright stuff where the characters become important on a world and planar stage. Don't limit access to this stuff by level too much and the Epic book becomes useful for all players/DMs.
A build-a-spell from components system like the old Epic book or Monte Cooks WoD book is good, but it needs to be both simple and self-consistent.
Class features and feats for the above 20 levels characters that give more 'epic hero' abilities - not too far in the direction of superheroes though.
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I'd like new Epic rules to simply continue, where the core rules end. I don't want to learn a new system, just to level my PC from 20 to 21 or to continue the story in my campaign.
I guess the problem with epic levels is, that players often have different expectations towards epic games.
Some would like their PCs to "explode" with power after lvl 20 and others want a smooth progression that doesn't feel that different from the higher lvls (like 16 to 20).
Maybe it would be a cool idea to create variant systems for both approaches towards epic play.
One that lets you play powerful "superheroes" that can rival the gods, destroy cities and so on and another that has a more smooth and down-to-earth progression that doesn't feel like "drinking from the firehose" after lvl 20.
I've got a plethora of different desires for epic play.
First I'll chime in with the "epic-in-scope" end goal being desirable. I like playing "nation builder" type of characters, and epic levels seem to me to be the range where you can affect nations, religions, travel, and the world stage of a campaign setting. This is the exciting and rewarding style of play I like most, creating something with my character that feels like it will last and affect the scope of life for the people of the lands. As such, the kinds of opportunities and challenges that utilize mechanics directly designed to impact nations and ideas are what I want.
I also like the idea of smooth advancement. Keep the mechanical progression as close as possible to what people know and play already. Something that was always awkward for the current system is when people multi-classed and took epic levels in non-epic classes, it felt like a jarring disconnect, since totally new BAB, saves, and feat rules were used.
And finally, as strange and nebulous as this might sound... the game has to feel special, a cut above what adventuring experiences came before. I hate to use this example, but Exalted by White Wolf is rather close to what I think of. Gods amongst men. Or at least as veritable titans, but not in a literal Monster Manual sort of way. It's like achieving epic levels should feel like achieving enlightenment or ascension beyond the mortal ken.
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First I'll chime in with the "epic-in-scope" end goal being desirable. I like playing "nation builder" type of characters, and epic levels seem to me to be the range where you can affect nations, religions, travel, and the world stage of a campaign setting. This is the exciting and rewarding style of play I like most, creating something with my character that feels like it will last and affect the scope of life for the people of the lands. As such, the kinds of opportunities and challenges that utilize mechanics directly designed to impact nations and ideas are what I want.
While I agree with this; shouldn't this already be in place long before reaching epic levels?
There's a disconnect between the 3e campaign fluff, which still assumes that grey-bearded rulers are able to hold onto their nations upon struggling to the dizzy heights of level 10+, and the 3e rules crunch, which tells players that level 18+ is nothing to brag about, and should be reached while still in your teens.
Four CR-appropriate encounters per day, means one power-up per week, even allowing for three days off for crafting.
Bingo! Level 1 Apprentice to Level 20 Archmage in 4-5 months.
How can you run a government, when you can't get served in a bar?
To me, epic level play means Demi-godhood. 20th level characters are already so much more powerful than the common man that they all but count as demi-gods anyway. So, i personally would shift the focus of an epic level game substatially. The weapons of a First level epic character should a nation, or a religion, or the very weather. When you loose hit points, that is your believers being slaughtered by angry zelots of another god and enemies should be other gods. Stride from plane to plane spreading the influence of you worship. Trade knowledge in celestial libraries the size of entire worlds and slowly climb to true godhood.
For me and my group, epic level is anything above 13th. Our past few camapigns have been Pathfinder APs and modules. We always end campaigns with the PCs roughly 12th level.
So anything past that endpoint seems epic to us.
Also, as far as D&D is concerned with my group, the word "epic" is pretty much synonymous with "unmanageable".
So for me and mine, if Paizo wants to rework the idea of "epic" and reverse it's poor PR, they've definitely got an up-hill slog ahead of them.
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The weapons of a First level epic character should a nation, or a religion, or the very weather. When you loose hit points, that is your believers being slaughtered by angry zelots of another god and enemies should be other gods.
Oooh. I like where you are coming from.
When you need to meddle directly in the world you could spawn an avatar which is a standard character under the rules plus just a few bonus bits from the Epic book to mark that your character is now the avatar or proxy of your godly form. This way the parts of the game played with your character in mortal form don't get too overpowered, but there is an extra dimension to the game (both figuratively and literally).
Well ... To be honest, I like the concept. The execution sounds ... I don't know.
There are two different roads I see and neither are going to make everyone happy. (or there could be more that I do not see but ...) Road 1: 21st level. Works great for continuing an existing game, bad for ease of use. Road 2: "Pathfinder Epic" it is for all and tense and purposes a completely different game. I mean the system is still the same, but you go 1 level above 20th and the group must do chargen again. Great for ease of use, not great for continuing an existing game. People will complain that it is Exalted. The best way to explain it is that you are now a demi-god and your character has been completely transformed but the spirit of their character is maintained. I'm sure I am not saying anything you guys have not thought of already, but ...
I trust you guys. Forge ahead on whatever road you guys feel best. You have not let me down thus far. You've earned my trust.
The weapons of a First level epic character should a nation, or a religion, or the very weather. When you loose hit points, that is your believers being slaughtered by angry zelots of another god and enemies should be other gods.
Oooh. I like where you are coming from.
When you need to meddle directly in the world you could spawn an avatar which is a standard character under the rules plus just a few bonus bits from the Epic book to mark that your character is now the avatar or proxy of your godly form. This way the parts of the game played with your character in mortal form don't get too overpowered, but there is an extra dimension to the game (both figuratively and literally).
This was handles as "avatars" in the old Immortals rules. I would like to see Epic be truly different, just as that rule set did for the BECMI line. Honestly if you took that book and Pathfinderized it, that would be great...I see where folks are coming from that want a smooth progression of the existing character, but I don't really see that as "Epic" in any way. If I want a 25th level figthter that just 5 levels above a Ftr20, then I just up his BAB/saves/feats and do a logical expansion of his class abilities. These guys aren't epic, they're just higher level.
And for that adventure path, I always wanted to run something like the Immortal Storm adventures, or Wrath of the Immortals from the Immortal side of the adventure.
I like the Exalted comparison above as well.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I think going two ways would work: give me support for the next five levels, put all the classes up to level 25. At that point, give me a way to convert my PC over to a new system where my feat and skill choices translate to "immortal concepts", so I still have the flavor without the feats/skills/etc. But playing a 1st level paragon of Unarmed Fighting or a 7th level demigod of Fire would rock.
I know it may be a little early for this, but I would love to see the Epic handbook for Pathfinder have material leading a campaign into deification. An intense stream-lining of the rules from 3.0's Deities and Demi-gods for deific feats and salient abilities to make stat blocks not be 2 friggin' pages would be grand. I don't see a ton of campaigns becoming god-based, but would like there to be a rules set we could fall back on. Also, not to thread jack, but I really think we need an official upgrade to the psionics system way before we need Epic rules.
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I'll copy/paste Lathiira's answer from the duplicate thread, as it pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.
Things I'd want to see in the Pathfinder Epic rules:
1) Truly epic magic. I don't mind slapping together new spells, but I want something that doesn't look like a jigsaw puzzle and feel like the solution to a differential equation. I want magic to move mountains, build cloud cities on real clouds, part oceans, and battle the mightiest of foes.
2) Class features. Actual class features, not just a bunch of feats that are more of the same or absolutely bizarre.
3) Foes that are truly epic, not just a mound of HD so high that the calculator starts to weep when it sees them. Dragons are naturally mythical, fantastic, even epic. A mound of feathers with Charisma drain? Not so much.
4) Prestige classes that are also truly epic, for characters who have already attained the power of their regular classes. The ones in the ELH? Not really epic feeling overall, though some of their abilities were getting there (like the juggernaut's ability to go through a wall of force).
5) Epic magic items. Heaven forbid, even artifact creation.
6) The ability to do epic things. Things like found your own kingdom, ascend to godhood, become a legend, and so on. Some of this can be done pre-epic, but include some details and ideas.
7) Good integration of pre-epic and epic levels is a must. Material to guide a DM from the below-20 to post-20 levels. How do you transition between the two? What can you expect?
Points 2, 5 and 6 are a priority.
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I don't think there's a need for an epic book to be that big, actually.
Something lite, like build up a suite of interesting, truly powerful and evocotive abilities and let classes choose from ONE each level as they go up. Less concentration on numbers fiddling.
As it is, however, I think we had best concentrate on making levels 16-20 playable and fun instead of worrying about level 21 and up.
-DM Jeff
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The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?
Any deal breakers?
Goodmorning Erik,
- You ask a great question. I'm from the school of thought that "epic" play can happen just as well at levels 5-12 as they can at any later point. I've never conceptually agreed with the idea that somehow, at 20th level, somehow the game was any more epic in content, story, or mechanics.
- I agree with you that making the game more mythic doesn't have much to do with math. Retrofits and re-designs are always more difficult than new builds, and it seems your idea of a "redo" can lead to some interesting places, given the nature of gamers today. Grognards understand the Batman vs. Superman nature of Pathfinder, that is, we understand our game can and should peak at Batman-like powers. However, I can speak for about a million of us who never really play the game at levels higher than 14th. Why? Math probably - either on the part of the DM or the players, and the "time" impact in rules research and general lack of familiarity with play at higher levels.
- I was really (originally) hoping PAIZO would pick up where the game's history and traditions left off, but more and more I see the pendulum pushing ever forward into new territory, and expanding, innovating, and with this email of yours now "re-doing" things. This is not necessarily bad. With the track record of James Jacobs, Erik Mona, the high quality of Dungeon, Dragon, and Pathfinder — I would, frankly, follow both of you into a fire. So — lead the way, my friend. I trust that the game you would want to play is also the game I would want to play. And, frankly, I'd love to have some renewed interest in higher level play. The deal-breaker for me, would be failure to honor the tradition and history of our game for the past 30+ years... and that's not something I would expect you to ignore.
In my opinion an epic rules set should be a logical continuation of the existing rules. Create some epic class abilities and feats and whatever that are truly epic in scope. I want games to dovetail together nicely. When play progresses from low level into mid level, around 3-5 level, the characters have a noticeable jump in power but it is playable and streamlined, there is no need to rebuild the character.
Epic should deal more with scope and less with some kind of diefication. I never cared for that idea unless a game was designed around it or if a particular character wanted to take that path. In no way do I think it should be mandatory or the standard.
Epic is more about scope to me. This point has been articulated nicely several times and I will not repeat it here. Different levels of play have characters doing different scopes of things. Take for example the outline of a campaign I ran recently that went into epic levels. Most of my games don't even hit 20th level, this one just happened to go beyond.
1-3: Wander a metropolis dealing with street crime.
3-9: Prevent a death cult from freeing a demon trapped on the material plane.
9-13: Travel to the planes and stop an evil alliance by battling a demon lord.
13-15: Save a city from an ancient evil and establish a barony.
15-20: Save the island nation from a saughin invasion and stop the summoning of their god.
20-25: Save the world from the Mind Flayers of Thoon as they attempted to black out the sun.
If I did another story that spanned 25-30 levels the scope would have to be even larger. There would be lots of world saving and perhaps even the saving of all existence. Gods would be met and talked to. Mountains would be moved and whole nations would be destroyed.
It's all about scope.
I would like something along the lines of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved but going up to level 30 rather than 25. Anything beyond 30th level is really into the realm of teh gods and would require some Immortals Set type of treatment.
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Goodmorning Erik,
You ask a great question. I'm from the school of thought that "epic" play can happen just as well at levels 5-12 as they can at any later point. I've never conceptually agreed with the idea that somehow, at 20th level, somehow the game was any more epic in content, story, or mechanics.
I've been thinking about this since my earlier post on the subject and I'm more convinced that this is the way to go. Make an 'Epic' book orthogonal to the current rules rather than an extension of them. Allow the players to run countries, lead armies, found faiths, ascend to godhood. Make it a different style of play, rather than more of the same. Something that could be used for 1st level characters to run something Birthright-like as easily as to make a high-level character into a demigod.
The big thing (I think) is that the epic spell rules need an overhau (or complete rewrite). BUT -- this is contingent on Pathfinder "fixing" high-level play; if high-levels are painful to play, then high-level-plus-one will be at least as painful to play.
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I'm in the "Keep it Consistent" camp. I don't want Epic-Level play to suddenly change how things work. I wouldn't buy a book that had me suddenly switch to a "1st-Epic-Level" class or something. That might be appropriate for a "play as a god" book (like the old Immortals set), but not for just a "really powerful mortal". Epic characters may be "god-like" in power, but they aren't actual deities. (Any possibility of a Pathfinder RPG "Immortals Set"? 8^)
I would vote for a move similar to what I voted for in the psionics equivalent of this thread: Take the existing Epic rules, playtest the living daylights out of them, and *REFINE* the rules; don't try to rebuild it from the ground up. Take out the things that are unfixable, but fix the rest.
Now, the above was written assuming that Epic, in the context of this sort of RPG means "high-level". Epic as a playing/storytelling style I don't think is relevant to this context. However, I would be more than happy to see a book that covered epic-style play/story, giving options for kingdoms, divine ascension (see above), and other world-spanning/shaking accomplishments.
Maybe keep the old simple rules of going just above lv20 in the core book, but have pathfinder epic as a seperate system specifically for epic games, with its own book.
And maybe only ten, sprawling levels.
Wizards become archmages, clerics hierophants, etc.
Being one in the "Epic is Different" camp, I'm wondering what the real need is for just higher-level rules to be in a separate book. Staying with the Fighter example, in a consistent system wouldn't the Ftr 25 simply get +5 BAB, +14 Fort, +8 Ref/Will, two more bonus feats (Ftr 22 and Ftr24), and more Armor/Weapon Training (Ftr21, Ftr23, and Ftr25)? Beyond coming up with the expanded class abilities, I couldn't see this taking up an entire book.
The spell portion would probably be the most space-consuming, but again if the Wizard simply progresses in the standard way this shouldn't be that troublesome. Start gaining more at-will spell use (choose X 1st level spells at Wiz21, etc.), more spell slots, and of course some more class abilities. If, on the other hand, a Wiz25 is vastly different from a Wiz20 (having "spell seed" like powers or some such) we're really back around to having a separate system then the core character classes anyway, it's just that the casters get cool crazy stuff.
I haven't played a lot of ELH games so maybe I'm missing something, so I'm truly looking for some details here...
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I'd like new Epic rules to simply continue, where the core rules end. I don't want to learn a new system, just to level my PC from 20 to 21 or to continue the story in my campaign.
Absinth managed to concisely state exactly what I want from epic rules.
Here is what I would include in an Epic Rulebook:
* Character progressions beyond level 20 in the same format as the core books. Save and BAB progressions, the continued progression of spell slots, and new class powers.
* New feats, skills, and spells designed for higher levels. Let's see some 10th+ level spells!
* High level threats/monsters for characters of 20+ level.
After producing an Epic Rulebook, the next logical step would be to publish supporting materials, such as an Epic Bestiary, Epic Manual of the Planes (could provide additional rules regarding the planar cosmology, as well as a great campaign setting for high level characters), and an Epic Adventure Path.
Going beyond level 20 shouldn't be like playing a different game from a mechanics perspective. Keep the rules system consistent, and that will enable the players and DMs to concentrate on the higher level threats and campaign plotlines instead of having to learn a new set of advancement rules.
I rather like James' Immortals-esque proposal. My primary concern would be in preserving continuity between 20th level mortals and 1st level epics. Porting over an existing character needs to be easy and lose as little as possible.
Honestly, merging the epic rules with the rules form deities & demigods would not be a bad idea. you would cover the demigod path for epic play that way.
It's a difficult question, because in my opinion what is needed are two different things that aren't particularly compatible.
First, there is some need for rules for advancing about 20th level that work with the current system, with the primary purpose being to be able to stat enemies to challenge PCs that are in the upper range of the existing rules. That said, without going here I am happy enough to wrap up campaigns in the mid-teens and use the 16-20 level for the adversaries, exactly as you have done for the PF APs.
What are you looking for conceptually?
Make it Epic in scope rather than power. Think along the lines of the BECMI or Birthright stuff where the characters become important on a world and planar stage. Don't limit access to this stuff by level too much and the Epic book becomes useful for all players/DMs.
I agree with brock; I would much rather see this than what the current Epic book is. As others have stated, I do not want to see anything like Union, or the section in the Epic book about how you can still have regular dungeon adventures, just have deeper pits, etc. Bigger is [u]not[/u] better.
That said there is truth to what someone else said above about 20+ characters being out of place in the normal world. Epic-[u]scope[/u] PCs in the sense that brock describes are perfectly fine in the normal world, as can a very few 20+ adversaries as mentioned above. However PCs of levels of 20+ really do need to go planar if they are going to exist at all. They should still be powerful and move amongst other beings of great significance; not regular people with super-high scores.
Whoever said you're facing an uphill battle is right.
I think things should go on more or less seamlessly. The difference between levels 20 and 21 should not be huge. It should not be that much more than the change between levels 19 and 20 (and that one, admittantly, does have a bit of a leap with capstone abilities).
I don't know what to do with epic spellcasting, but the current system just doesn't work. Try making a spell like polar ray or meteor swarm as an epic spell. Pretty hefty casting DC right there. Try doing something that goes beyond non-epic spells.
One idea I have would be that you learn one or more epic seeds (which would have to be reworked, too, of course) per feat. Or you get something like 1 seed per epic level, maybe plus your key ability. Then you can use those seeds to cast epic spells with a total cost equal to your caster level. Yes, I know, it's kinda the spell points from things like Elements of Magic or McWoD. Have signature spells in there, too.
Or just have spells of spell levels 10 and up.
Or have epic magic feats that are similar to metamagic feats (or just epic metamagic feats) that allow you to use those higher-level slots better.
I think something should be done about the different progressions of BAB and saves after epic levels. I don't know whether it won't break the game even worse than before, since they did it so the gaps between good and bad saves and attack progressions get too large, but maybe it can be countered with feats like Epic Saving Throw.
Don't change the progressions for characters of character level 21+. A fighter 15/rogue 15 should always have the same BAB, no matter which of his 30 class levels were the first 20 levels.
If more than 4 attacks are a problem, give characters another benefit to make up for it. Some extra damage - there's feats like that already.
Take care of the price difference between normal and epic magic items. There has to be a better way there.
Other than that, I think the general problems are just the problems high-level D&D has, magnified because there's even more levels. If they are already fixed at lower levels, they will be less severe at higher levels.
I really don't like Epic play. If there is no cap, then its absurd: There should be no such thing as an adventure at CR 100!
If there is a cap, then you're just moving the cap from 20 to (say) 30, except that at some point the Tarrasque and Demon lords became trivial opponents, which is also silly.
I like the idea that level 20 is the pinnacle of mortal ability in a given skill-set. Isn't that why PFRPG added capstones to all the classes?
I'd be happy to see a few pages of rules at the end of a high-level AP or a book full of demon lords about patching the game up to level 21 or 22 so that the PCs can continue to gain experience and level up in order to conclude the adventure, instead of hitting the wall, but a full book of epic rules is bound to be silly, one way or another.
The current Epic Level rules are a mess.
The way to make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.
So if Paizo does an "Epic Level" book, it will probably be a complete re-do. With that in mind, I'm very curious to hear what people think about the idea of play beyond level 20.
What are you looking for conceptually?
What are you looking for mechanically?
When I first looked at d20 years ago, I thought, "Twenty is the new 'name level.' Why stop there?" So, on one hand, levels beyond 20 should be little different from levels up to 20.
Truly Epic levels should be Prestige Classes with their own feats and cool stuff.
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I agree with brock; I would much rather see this than what the current Epic book is. As others have stated, I do not want to see anything like Union, or the section in the Epic book about how you can still have regular dungeon adventures, just have deeper pits, etc. Bigger is not better.That said there is truth to what someone else said above about 20+ characters being out of place in the normal world. Epic-[u]scope[/u] PCs in the sense that brock describes are perfectly fine in the normal world, as can a very few 20+ adversaries as mentioned above. However PCs of levels of 20+ really do need to go planar if they are going to exist at all. They should still be powerful and move amongst other beings of great significance; not regular people with super-high scores.
It may have been Charles in his 'rant' above (which I rather agreed with) that made the point of having few high-powered NPCs in the game world, however he mentioned the Realms so that is going to set me off on a little rant of my own:
The Realms as written had very good reasons why the powerful NPCs were there and a nice mutually-assured-destruction feel to it that stopped them laying waste to the world. However, some section of the community couldn't resist throwing them into adventures at every opportunity and then complaining about how broken the Realms were because they kept popping up. The result was WotCs retcon of the Realms that means that we will never get to hear some likely fantastic stories that Ed and Elaine had planned to tell, because they are no longer in the timeline - and that makes me both angry and sad.
Ok, rant over. So why mention the Realms? Well 'Power of Faerun' is a good example of a book that widens the scope for the DM. It talks about court intrigue and rulership, merchant coasters, churches etc. - I personally think it was one of the best books that WotC put out - and is an example of widening the characters to Epic scales that can be used at any level. I'd like to see something similar to that as Paizos 'Epic' book, although I'm not sure that is the right title for it.
It's become apparent that we have a number of camps here. Some people want a book that carries on the system from 20-30 seamlessly. I don't really have a problem with that if it is done well - there are a lot of core monsters that a 20th level party can't handle - although it does mean that the capstones aren't.
Another group of people want the mechanics and flavour of the system to change. I have a toe in that camp too. I liked the Immortals ideas from BECMI.
The remainder of my feet sit in the camp of wanting a good book on widening the campaign though as I loved the ideas behind Birthright. Apologies to Erik if that wasn't really the question he was asking.
I'd like to see a seamless progression from the first 20 levels. I always found it jarring how the ELH suggested that it should be a "world-shaking" event when the 21st level milestone is hit.
I'd like to see epic feats be truly epic, not just another +1 in a chain or a slightly-better metamagic feat.
I've played and DMed epic level campaigns.
What worked great:
-Melee/Ranged Combat: Despite common gripes I've seen, our group found little problem with iterative attacks and higher modifiers.
-Monsters: Monsters scale up nicely, particularly if you bend the rules a bit and scale up spell resistance and caster level for SLAs.
-Skills: Many skill checks seemed to scale nicely, while some of the epic applications of skills were fun. A few checks became a bit too automatic (like Concentration and Tumble), but that happened long before epic levels.
-Epic Prestige Classes: Some of these were quite worthwhile and played well with others, like the arcane lord and soulreaver. Others...not so much.
What worked absolutely horribly:
-Epic Spellcasting...yuk!
-Epic Magic Items...the huge void between the "just slightly better than regular" items and the ones that cost millions of gold pieces was troubling. And artifacts became less interesting, yet all the more coveted solely for their indestructible nature (who wants to lose an item worth over a million gps?)
-Having to reign in "save or die" effects so every combat didn't become a game of rock/paper/scissors.
I've run a couple of games beyond 20th level, and I am fan of realm shattering stories every now and then. Sometimes you NEED to turn it up to 11.
"What are you looking for conceptually?"
I want to run Steven Erikson-style stories. Simply as that. I want epic characters, gods and demigods to battle behind the scenes and on the planes. And every now and then I want a mortal to be able to get a potshot at one of the big ones, and actually succeed.
I want to run an epic game when the story demands it, not because I dig big numbers.
"What are you looking for mechanically?"
Oooo tricky. I want epic characters to mesh seamlessly with the just-below-epic characters in play and as a system. And I don't want the current 3.5 epic buff-o-rama.
Good luck with that one.
"If you're skeptical, what can we do that might get you to give this one a try?"
I am not skeptical, but if I was, I would probably ask for ready-to-play concepts and stories.
Any deal breakers?
The current epic spell system, epic cityguards, the boots of speed picture in the ELH.
My vote is for level one epic.
This way if you want to play epic campaigns you can just "GO for it" and make a character outright and play epic modules and adventure paths (rather than "building" the character)
Then there should be rules for conversion if you want to take your regular campaign "epic" after 20th level.
In MY opinion EPIC means, being able to have a 10th level mage/ 10 th level cleric 10th level mystic theurge (now you can have all the full levels of spells and access to all)
Or having a 5th level wizard/1st level fighter/10th level eldrtich knight/4th level arcane archer/10th level dragon disciple.
howeever both ways although "epic" would be whole differnt meanings.
Going with "level one" epic would also make epic adventure paths MUCH easier to write for and not wait 3 years for new players to get their characters there to play it (and buy the material)
Id vote for maybe the opporunity to do both (level normal campaigns to 30th with a rules expansion) AND have a separate set of EPIC rules in its own rulebook that would effectively be a superheroic campaign from level one.
With a chapter on how to convert 20th level mortals to epic rules, effectively given a single PC the abilility to have leveled 39 times.
If It were my RPG empire, and my investment I would write the epic level one rules and have effictively a whole new game to sell, without taking away from my existing game because those characters could "convert" after level 20.
<Hint> start writing an epic adventure path now!
<Hint> You might need to hire one more adventure writer
<Hint> I'm looking for a new job.
Conceputally I see plane hopping being common core in Epic and something along the lines of a "Golarion after the appocolypse" kind of world.
Something out of the tales of hawkmoon or Elric of Melnibone' for inspiriation.
"Commoners" would be Githyanki and and outsiders, a barroom would look like something out of starwars but the aliens would be outsiders and godlings.
The basic PC races would be all but "wiped" from the world (by some cataclysm or world war, or invasion of outsiders, or magical explosion whatever) and the PCs themselves would be (for the most part, not entirely) what was left of their respective races.
What, Ill stop here, Im giving away my intellectual material that I need to get a job at paizo for writing the first epic adventure path....Hire me!
(grovel grovel beg)
Hire me!
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I think a lot of people would love to continue their adventures and, more importantly, their characters past level 20. The problem with the 3.x epic rules seems to be similar to the problem with 3.x psionics--the whole project seems to have been created in a vacuum. In the games I've played and gm'd, the real slog has been to even approach level 20. It's been widely stated elsewhere, but a lot of adventures tend to peter out around the mid teens. If PathfinderRPG can improve the upper "quarter" of character advancement, I really think that there will be an increased demand for adventuring beyond level 20.
Looking back, my plays through the Baldur's Gate trilogy were the only time I've had fun playing high level characters. I think part of that is I didn't have to worry about the math, but a larger part was the truly epic story. Outside of that game, I really can't think of much published material that really outlines a good epic adventure, certainly nothing that has caught my eye. It's tough--dancing with the gods is not everyone's cup of tea, nor is riding tarrasques across the planes in hunt of some crazy uberlich.
Mechanically, I'd just like to see something that makes sense with what levels 1-20 bring to the table, and I'd hope it won't require a CPA to be able to play at a reasonably pace. Conceptually, I'd like epic rules (and the handbook) to have scope. Aside from just the basic rules, maybe it could include advice on what characters can do, from running a kingdom to plane walking. Since there aren't going to be (m)any books to support epic play, any sort of help and guidance in the book would be great outside of just basic mechanics.