I'm building a switch hitter Slayer build and need a little help with it.
I got the Ranger combat style Slayer Trick with Precise shot as the first feat.
For the second combat style feat i'm in doubt between the Manyshot and the Rapid Shot feats.
Which one do you guys think is more usefull and why?
You really, really, really want to get both feats. Along with Precise Shot and later on Clustered Shot they're the bread and butter of archery builds.
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Both, but Multishot has more pre-reqs so use the ranger combat style feat to qualify for it once you are 6th.
Use a regular feat to pick up rapid shot.
Note: both use full attack actions, and can be used together. You have to determine the level of your archery investment since you are planning to switch hit. Basically, a feat like deadly aim may be better for you since you can benefit during standard-only actions like moving and surprise rounds as well as full action rounds.
Note: Sorry, Stabbity. Only the 1st attack coming out of stealth qualifies for sneak attack so that argument doesn't matter (unless you have access to greater invisibility, then rapid > multi)
Since you can get Manyshot without the prerequisite, skip Rapid Shot until later levels when the penalty to hit won't hurt as much. You can always pick it up if you find yourself flush with feats and nothing really attractive to choose down the road. I'd be sure to get Deadly Aim and Clustered Shot before Rapid Shot though.
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Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Clustered Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Master
I'd prioritize Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim. The first two to avoid the killer penalties from firing into melee and soft cover. The last is to keep up on damage. After that, the more the merrier.
Note: Sorry, Stabbity. Only the 1st attack coming out of stealth qualifies for sneak attack so that argument doesn't matter (unless you have access to greater invisibility, then rapid > multi)
Win initiative, yo. Someone who intends to do ranged effectively should have good enough dex to beat *someone* on initiative most of the time.
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Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Clustered Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Master
I'd prioritize Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim. The first two to avoid the killer penalties from firing into melee and soft cover. The last is to keep up on damage. After that, the more the merrier.
Note: Sorry, Stabbity. Only the 1st attack coming out of stealth qualifies for sneak attack so that argument doesn't matter (unless you have access to greater invisibility, then rapid > multi)Win initiative, yo. Someone who intends to do ranged effectively should have good enough dex to beat *someone* on initiative most of the time.
I stand corrected. Multiple arrow sneak attack is good for first round antics, and combines well with a switch hitter that plans to melee after those opportunities are used up. My mind went in the direction of steath/sniper antics.
In retrospect I'd follow Imbicatus' advise with Imp precise shot at 6, and rapid fire like stabbity recommended.
Thanks for all the advice guys, there's a lot of good stuff here. I'm gonna balance my normal feats with the ones I get from Ranged Combat Stye and see what kind of fun I can muster.
For what it's worth, unless you reallllly want to play a switch hitter, it's mechanically just better to build a straight ranger slayer archer.
If you really want to be in/around melee I would suggest the following:
1) Feat - Point Blank Shot, if Human also Precise Shot
2) Talent - Ranger Combat Style - Rapid Shot (or Precise Shot if you don't have it already)
3) Feat - Deadly Aim
4) Talent - see below
5) Feat - see below
6) RCS - Point Blank Master (this enables you to fire a bow in melee without an AoO, and therefore you no longer need to switc hit)
Either the 4th level talent or 5th level feat needs to be weapon focus, but is open otherwise. If you play a race other than human, you can use the rogue talent weapon training to get weapon focus and then the 5th level feat to pick up whatever feat you delayed by not being human.
Getting sneak attack to ranged attacks is not easy so I would look at it as a bonus when it happens unless you have a plan to make it happen coconsistently. I agree that precise shot and improved precise shot should be taken ASAP. To answer your question manyshot is a free extra damage and it will boost DPR more than rapid shot.
For what it's worth, unless you reallllly want to play a switch hitter, it's mechanically just better to build a straight
rangerslayer archer.If you really want to be in/around melee I would suggest the following:
1) Feat - Point Blank Shot, if Human also Precise Shot
2) Talent - Ranger Combat Style - Rapid Shot (or Precise Shot if you don't have it already)
3) Feat - Deadly Aim
4) Talent - see below
5) Feat - see below
6) RCS - Point Blank Master (this enables you to fire a bow in melee without an AoO, and therefore you no longer need to switc hit)Either the 4th level talent or 5th level feat needs to be weapon focus, but is open otherwise. If you play a race other than human, you can use the rogue talent weapon training to get weapon focus and then the 5th level feat to pick up whatever feat you delayed by not being human.
The problem is that pathfinder: a) rewards specializing, so switch hittter has some inherent problems; and b) has made archery a very very efficient combat style. Not saying that earlier itterations of the game did not have these problems, but true nevertheless. The advice to stick with archery is then a good one, except that it hardly answers the OP's question, and a thousand aarchery builds are already floating around the boards :).
@Wraithstrike: MAnyshot does indeed offer a higher dpr increase, unless sneak attack is factored in which is unreliable.
I do not agree with your statement to get PS and IPS as soon as possible. I actually think that a switch hitter will wait for enemies to come to him, so shooting into melee is rare. As soon as the enemy gets to be in melee, he'll switch out his bow and bring the smackdown with a beefy THW.
I'd build him along these lines:
1) Feat - Power Attack, if Human also Point Blank Shot (Have considered Far Shot, only worth it if you have a good scout and are often outside so you can start filling things with arrows at 2-3 range increments)
2) Talent - Ranger Combat Style - Rapid Shot
3) Feat - Quickdraw
4) Talent - Weapon Training, Weapon Focus: Longbow
5) Feat - Deadly Aim
6) RCS - Manyshot
Power Attack is needed for whenever you do switch hit, quickdraw while not a sexy feat is a big plus for switch hitter. From here on out I'd start investing in melee feats, I'd maybe go with a crit build, focused on a Falchion presumably. At level 10 you could opt for Improved Precise Shot as a Slayer Talent anyway, to deal with casters or opposing archers that have cover, but hardly mandatory, just smack the barbarian or w/e melee is coming for your own casters!
You'd end up with a pretty standard switch hitter build this way. Let your high strength (higher than dex), power attack and your full BAB carry your melee ability and have talents for your archery.
Claxon hit the nail on the head. Full archery is the best switch hitter. Ranger, Slayer and Zenarcher should not use a melee weapon, as the can use their bow as of level 6 or level 3(zenarcher).
This has the benefit that all your archery feats apply to you melee attack.
I almost forgot, but there is a feat that allows you to use your bow in melee without provoking. Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need I would just go that route.
I almost forgot, but there is a feat that allows you to use your bow in melee without provoking. Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need I would just go that route.
This is point-blank-master. A ranger and a slayer gain it at level 6 if they choose to. A zen archer gains it at level 3. Normally it has BAB +11 as a prereq.
I almost forgot, but there is a feat that allows you to use your bow in melee without provoking. Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need I would just go that route.
Point Blank Master, Ranger/Slayer can get it at level 6.
Still, I fail to see how "build an archer" is advice when somebody wants to play a switch hitter. Yes, archery is powerful, but in most games optimizing an archer is hardly needed, you can keep some weaknesses and rely on melee at times and still be a very decent martial.
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If you want to be a true switch hitter, take the full archery chain and power attack.
Two handed melee requires no investment to be decent at.
I almost forgot, but there is a feat that allows you to use your bow in melee without provoking. Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need I would just go that route.Point Blank Master, Ranger/Slayer can get it at level 6.
Still, I fail to see how "build an archer" is advice when somebody wants to play a switch hitter. Yes, archery is powerful, but in most games optimizing an archer is hardly needed, you can keep some weaknesses and rely on melee at times and still be a very decent martial.
In my last post I said "Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need.."
If you need for me to explain further I will, but otherwise that should explain why I mentioned the other feat.
If you want to be a true switch hitter, take the full archery chain and power attack.
Two handed melee requires no investment to be decent at.
This is what I would say if this is based on concept. Since archers benefit from higher strength there is no reason as to why the 13 strength would not already be obtained.
Also in case anyone is misinformed a switch-hitter is someone who can fight at range and in melee decently well. It does not require for you to split your feats between melee and ranged combat.
Well, it does imply that you switch what you are hitting with. Otherwise you are just bow hitting.
But, a full archery build + PA technically would function, but I would see no reason to drop my bow past PBM and probably retrain PA.
That being said, I stand by my earlier post ; "if" you want to switch between shooting at range and smacking in melee, I'd not take precise shot, Point Blank Master and IP.
The original switch hitter is from a time where there were no point blank mastery feat. One could argue that switch hitting with actual weapon switching is simply out-dated.
So, what is switch hitting then? Just standing in both melee and at range? Is a caster with combat casting also a switch hitter if all he does is sling lightning bolts? In that case any class which specialises and sometimes stands in melee is a switch hitter
To me a simple feat which changes if you threaten while shooting in melee does not change the core of what a switch hitter build does. Hell, if that was the case switch hitters changing weapons was outdated from the start, since you could full-attack with a 5 foot step anyway. Moreover, you could always fire in melee, just need to take the Aro.
No, switch hitting is not optimal, and yes you can use a bow in melee. However, switch hitting is still about switching 'what' you hit with, not switching 'where' you hit from, one potential square close.
I almost forgot, but there is a feat that allows you to use your bow in melee without provoking. Unless the switch-hitting is based on concept instead of need I would just go that route.Point Blank Master, Ranger/Slayer can get it at level 6.
Still, I fail to see how "build an archer" is advice when somebody wants to play a switch hitter. Yes, archery is powerful, but in most games optimizing an archer is hardly needed, you can keep some weaknesses and rely on melee at times and still be a very decent martial.
It is a fair answer if the OP doesn't know about the advantages and disadvantages of the build. The switch hitter existed at a time, because there was no Point Blank Master to take. This was actually quite short lived, because it came out in the Advanced Player's Guide. The build also had merit because it only required power attack to be good in melee range.
Unless he really wants to play a switch hitter for thematic reasons, there is little mechanical reason to do so.
It is a fair answer if the OP doesn't know about the advantages and disadvantages of the build. The switch hitter existed at a time, because there was no Point Blank Master to take. This was actually quite short lived, because it came out in the Advanced Player's Guide. The build also had merit because it only required power attack to be good in melee range.
Unless he really wants to play a switch hitter for thematic reasons, there is little mechanical reason to do so.
Well, I still see some reason to switch hit. First of all, PBM does not come online at level 5 (fighter), 6 (slayer/ranger) or not at all.
Second, it is rather feat intensive, in that you do not only need PBM, you also need snap shot to function the same as somebody with a THW. That is not even counting that if you do use melee AND a bow you will not really need precise shot, PBS (I would, as a ranger/slayer pick-up Improved Precise shot at level 10 however). This leaves you with many other options to improve either melee power, mobility or defenses (Iron Will).
Third, with rapid Shot at 2, Manyshot at 6 and IPS at 10 basically makes you as good at archery provided your enemies start relatively far away and you do not have an 800' raging pouncing barbarian who charges in one round. You basically only miss clustered shot, but for the maybe 5-8 arrows you'll fire before you draw you melee weapon you can cover DR with special arrows.
Fourth, I still do not agree that Point-Blank Master made any significant changes, as you could always 5' step away and shoot. Yes, Step Up messed with that, Nor does PBM change the fact that you would also need snapshot to function exactly like a melee character. Which does not even go into the question of how often you'll end up in melee anyway (which would depend on scenario, DM and party composition).
That is not to say that switch hitting in the original sense is optimal. But the problem there lies not in the switch hitting, but that archery is a really powerful combat style to begin with. And from a DPR perspective specialising does ofcourse make sense. I was just going of the fact that the OP asked whether he should take Rapid Shot or Manyshot as his level 6 Style feat, which I took to mean he was set on switch hitting, as most focussed archery builds would have rapid shot by level 3.
Anyway, consensus seems: Manyshot > Rapid shot, but get both :)
As most people said, I know that a full archer is mechanically stronger. And Rambear hit exactly where I wanted.
The thing is, my table plays in a house scenario which is completely NON PFS legal, if you know what I mean.
In this scenario, there is no resurrection magic, and Death is always something either permanent, or in the case of the rare return, it means some serious consequences. My character that died at lvl 8 has reacently been resurrected as a "Zombie Lord", as per the template, with some modifications to make it more inconvenient and adding some drawbacks to it (We also don't enforce the Alignment rules).
[EDIT] Forgot to tell, he died before the ACG was released and was a Ranger back then. Since the Slayer fits best what I had in mind for him, I'm rebuilding him as a Slayer.[EDIT]
Roleplay aside, mechanically, it means that my character that already had it's stats rolled gained a boost to Str and Dex, giving it the total of 22 Dex and 18 Str.
With a +2 Elven Curve Blade I gained as a Heirloom weapon, I felt that keeping Switch Hitting was a valid option both for fluff and for the fact that my table doesn't take itself very seriously crunchwise.
I don't want to get off topic, i'm just explaining my scenario so you guys understand my reasoning.
And as far as it goes, you all helped a lot, both for this and for future characters...