Mithral used in armor gives a lot of good features. The weight goes down by half, spell failure is decreased by 10%, maximum dexterity is increased by 2 and armor check penalities are lessened by 3 to a minumum of 0. I have absolutely no problem with these advantages of mithral over steel.
My problem comes from the phrase; 'Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.' If it were limited to only movement rates I would not have a problem with mithral armor. Being able to move full speed in medium armor and actually run in heavy armor would be a sufficent benefit. My issue is mithral armor negates the need to train with a heavier type of armor. Essentially granting the medium armor feat to bards, rangers and rogues and the heavy armor feat to barbarians.
In game terms, a 1st level barbarian who has never been out of the wilds observes the battle between a silver dragon and a white dragon. Both fatally wounded crash to earth killing their riders. One rider is wearing adamatine plat mail. The other rider is wearing mithral plate mail created by the same armor smith and identical except for material. Why can the barbarian don and use the mithral set but not the adamatine set? It makes no sense.
Please clarify the sentence 'Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.' to limit it to movement or give a justification why being lighter nullifies the need for the correct training.
Thanks,
Doug
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The problem here comes down to training. I intend to clarify this so that mithral armor does not change the armor's type when it comes to proficiency... which has always been a bit silly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's good to hear. What about other aspects of what armor type mithril is? For instance, does the endurance feat allow you to sleep in mithril plate mail with no penalty, as a medium armor? Or is it still heavy armor for that purpose?
I think it would be easiest to simply remove the entire reference to armor of a lighter category entirely.
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The problem here comes down to training. I intend to clarify this so that mithral armor does not change the armor's type when it comes to proficiency... which has always been a bit silly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
THANK YOU!!! :D
This, perhaps, is one of the best things i've heard for PF so far!
[slight threadjack] Mithral as-is is a pretty terrible material to make weapons out of. It offers lighter weight (if you're concerned about encumberance, you're probably not a melee character), and better hardness and HP than steel. But it's really expensive for those benefits. Can we make mithral count as a silvered weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction? Mithral is sometimes called "true silver" after all. [/threadjack]
Director of Game Design
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Can we make mithral count as a silvered weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction? Mithral is sometimes called "true silver" after all. [/threadjack]Yes, please. True silver needs to count as silver. Besides, it's always been obnoxious that DR x/silver has always meant DR x+1/silver, because there's no superior form of silver that doesn't make you take a -1 penalty to weapon damage.
This is something I have been thinking about for a while.. I am not convinced yet, but it seems like a good idea.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Can we make mithral count as a silvered weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction? Mithral is sometimes called "true silver" after all. [/threadjack]Yes, please. True silver needs to count as silver. Besides, it's always been obnoxious that DR x/silver has always meant DR x+1/silver, because there's no superior form of silver that doesn't make you take a -1 penalty to weapon damage.This is something I have been thinking about for a while.. I am not convinced yet, but it seems like a good idea.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I want to vote against this... cold iron is not regualr everyday old iron is it? Why should a completely different metal that just happens to be similar in color (and probably doesn't tarnish) act as silver?
As for the damage penalty, it's not that big a deal.
--I wanna Vrock. VROCK!
I want to vote against this... cold iron is not regualr everyday old iron is it?
Actually, It Is.
Actually, It Is.
I want to vote against this... cold iron is not regualr everyday old iron is it?
In D&D it's a bit different.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold"This iron, mined deep underground, known for its effectiveness against fey creatures, is forged at a lower temperature to preserve its delicate properties."
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The problem here comes down to training. I intend to clarify this so that mithral armor does not change the armor's type when it comes to proficiency... which has always been a bit silly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
This does make sense with respect to Mithril Chain, a Barbarian is trained in Medium Armor, but finds himself less encumbered by the lighter more fluid chain. Perhaps make armors counted as one class lighter with respect to class ability limitations, but not proficiency. Or perhaps make class abilities which are limited by encumbrance/armor type be based on the total armor check penalty.
For example an armor with a penalty of -2 or better allows a base movement of 30/20
any armor with a check penalty of -3 or worse 20/15.
Or for a rangers combat style mastery, he only receives the effects of these bonus feats while wearing armor with a check penalty of -2 or better.
etc
Can we make mithral count as a silvered weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction? Mithral is sometimes called "true silver" after all. [/threadjack]Yes, please. True silver needs to count as silver. Besides, it's always been obnoxious that DR x/silver has always meant DR x+1/silver, because there's no superior form of silver that doesn't make you take a -1 penalty to weapon damage.This is something I have been thinking about for a while.. I am not convinced yet, but it seems like a good idea.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I simply remove the -1 damage penalty tacked onto silvered weapons. It has always been a little annoying, and it would be one less rule to worry about. Silver, being a softer metal, is already represented as such through it's hardness and hit points. Just for comparison's sake:
Alchemical Silver hardness: 8, hit points: 10/inch
Steel/Iron hardness: 10, hit points: 30/inch
Cold Iron hardness: 10, hit points: 30/inch
Mithral hardness: 15, hit points: 30/inch
Adamantine hardness: 20, hit points: 40/inch
Getting rid of the -1 damage penalty can easily be explained away by what other metal it is alloyed with.
EDIT: Let's not give mithral yet another benefit... it's already too good.
The problem here comes down to training. I intend to clarify this so that mithral armor does not change the armor's type when it comes to proficiency... which has always been a bit silly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! D:
Guess I just have to live.
What of the idea that Mithral weapons being lighter allowed Onehanded weapons to be treated as light for purposes of TWF?
Would make having a Mithral weapon actually mean something (other than nearly ignored rules for weight and hardness).
What of the idea that Mithral weapons being lighter allowed Onehanded weapons to be treated as light for purposes of TWF?
Would make having a Mithral weapon actually mean something (other than nearly ignored rules for weight and hardness).
Hmmm, that would be better that allowing it to bypass the DR x/silver, I think.
But we should specify that the very same weapon can still benefit from being wielded two-handed (since, normally, 'true' light weapons do not gain 1.5 times the Strength bonus when wielded two-handed and from Power Attack).|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like the death of mithral plate medium armour.
Does hurt elven chain, but meh. Make elven chain the exception (treated as light armor) and a mithral chain mail isn't. This makes elven chain special again.
I also like the idea of making one handed mithral weapons finessable. Makes it a choice for the finesse fighter.
Along those lines, if you make a suit of armour out of 'cold iron' maybe give the wearer a +1 save vs magic? Kind of like how adamantine works differently for armor and weapons.
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I actually am on the side of those who want mithril to count as silver for the purposes of bypassing DR. Right now the only purpose of mithral is to be armor and the only purpose of Alchemical silver is to be weapons, lets just kill two birds with one stone make mithral be useable for weapons and armor and remove alchemical silver.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I actually am on the side of those who want mithril to count as silver for the purposes of bypassing DR. Right now the only purpose of mithral is to be armor and the only purpose of Alchemical silver is to be weapons, lets just kill two birds with one stone make mithral be useable for weapons and armor and remove alchemical silver.
I think adding a benefit to mithril weapons would be good, either counting as silver or making them finessable. However, I don't think that this should remove alchemical silver. There's a huge price difference, and I don't see why the relatively cheap alchemical silver should be removed. It gives lower level characters options when dealing with vampires, werewolves, devils, etc.
I like the death of mithral plate medium armour.
Does hurt elven chain, but meh. Make elven chain the exception (treated as light armor) and a mithral chain mail isn't. This makes elven chain special again.
I also like the idea of making one handed mithral weapons finessable. Makes it a choice for the finesse fighter.
Along those lines, if you make a suit of armour out of 'cold iron' maybe give the wearer a +1 save vs magic? Kind of like how adamantine works differently for armor and weapons.
I agree with making elven chain a special exception to the rule which would go along with how it was treated in 1e/3e.
Doug
I agree with making elven chain a special exception to the rule which would go along with how it was treated in 1e/3e
I would suggest that 'elven chain' be more than just mithril chain armor. Perhaps a special enchantment?
From what Jason's said Mithral full plate will still act as medium armor for movement, but you will need heavy armor proficiency to use it without penalty becuase it is still full plate...
So a rogue could still use elven chain mail if he has medium armor proficiency and it will act as a light armor. But without medium armor proficiency he takes the armor check penalty for non proficiency.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I agree with making elven chain a special exception to the rule which would go along with how it was treated in 1e/3eI would suggest that 'elven chain' be more than just mithril chain armor. Perhaps a special enchantment?
That's what I meant. It's more than mithral chain. Kind of like an 'elf only' masterwork. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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I actually am on the side of those who want mithril to count as silver for the purposes of bypassing DR. Right now the only purpose of mithral is to be armor and the only purpose of Alchemical silver is to be weapons, lets just kill two birds with one stone make mithral be useable for weapons and armor and remove alchemical silver.I think adding a benefit to mithril weapons would be good, either counting as silver or making them finessable. However, I don't think that this should remove alchemical silver. There's a huge price difference, and I don't see why the relatively cheap alchemical silver should be removed. It gives lower level characters options when dealing with vampires, werewolves, devils, etc.
See the reason I said what I said is I honestly have no idea what the price difference is, but I had thought of that while I was posting, I just wasn't sure *if* it was significantly cheaper. If significantly cheaper than mithril then yes by all means keep it. But yes, please please please let mithril count as silver. I always thought it was mithril silver i.e. a special kind of silver in the way that D&D treats cold iron as a special kind of iron. Why not let it be that way.
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Director of Game Design
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Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....
All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
No and thank you thank you thank you, this is actually how it should be. But just to be clear if my paladin gets mithril full plate, he still gets all the benefits he had before right? the nerf is that a barbarian can't get the same plate without the proficiency feat or they take non-proficiency penalties right?
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Director of Game Design
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No and thank you thank you thank you, this is actually how it should be. But just to be clear if my paladin gets mithril full plate, he still gets all the benefits he had before right? the nerf is that a barbarian can't get the same plate without the proficiency feat or they take non-proficiency penalties right?
Correct... Paladin still gets all the benefits, Barbarian would suffer non-proficiency penalties (but would still keep fast movement).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes these things make sense, but do we really need to make it harder for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians, Bards, etc. to get a slightly better AC?
If you are going to make these changes, the lighter armor builds should get thrown a little bone.
(Note: I'm not against the changes, I just think light and medium armored characters need a little help.
Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perfect solution from my viewpoint. Thank you very much for listening.
So do we get rid of silver weapons, just using mithral instead? I don't mind that just want to be sure... it would help reduce word count and since mithral is going to do what silver does now I'm not sure how much silver weapons are needed anymore.
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Director of Game Design
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So do we get rid of silver weapons, just using mithral instead? I don't mind that just want to be sure... it would help reduce word count and since mithral is going to do what silver does now I'm not sure how much silver weapons are needed anymore.
You could, but silver weapons are quite a bit cheaper. I think at low levels, where lycanthropes are prevalent, mithral will be mostly out of reach, but silver is still quite affordable.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I like the death of mithral plate medium armour.
Does hurt elven chain, but meh. Make elven chain the exception (treated as light armor) and a mithral chain mail isn't. This makes elven chain special again.
I also like the idea of making one handed mithral weapons finessable. Makes it a choice for the finesse fighter.
Along those lines, if you make a suit of armour out of 'cold iron' maybe give the wearer a +1 save vs magic? Kind of like how adamantine works differently for armor and weapons.
Honestly "elven chain" can just be = mithril* chain shirt
It's virtually identical to the mithril* chain mail (+4 AC/+6 Dex vs. +5 AC/+5 Dex), except for being lighter and cheaper.
Unless you're going to ditch the chain shirt entirely (which I would love but seems unlikely), just let that be your special "elven chain."
* (I have always used the Tolkien spelling)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So do we get rid of silver weapons, just using mithral instead? I don't mind that just want to be sure... it would help reduce word count and since mithral is going to do what silver does now I'm not sure how much silver weapons are needed anymore.You could, but silver weapons are quite a bit cheaper. I think at low levels, where lycanthropes are prevalent, mithral will be mostly out of reach, but silver is still quite affordable.
That could easily be solved with moving silversheen into the Player's Handbook equipment list, rather than listing it as a magic item, so that it is easily and readily available at lower levels at low cost AND (importantly) is obvious to players that it is available.
Also, because arrows are costed by lots of 50, you could inexpensively buy a handful of mithril-tipped arrows if you want to have them on hand.
Finally, there is an argument that you wouldn't want to actually buy a dagger or sword made of silver or arrows with silver tips vs. a vial you could apply to your favored weapon (whatever it might be) when you happened to need it?
Count me in on the "mithril should equal silver vs. DR" list.
And a big thumbs up for getting rid of the "mithril armor counts as a different kind of armor" rule.
Actually, there is very little reason to have a mithral weapon (other than the half-weight and hardness, there's little incentive for someone to spend all that extra gold). By making it the equivalent of silver, it gives a small reason for people to enjoy mithral weaponry.
Why does every material need to be useful as a weapon and as armor? Adamantine or cold iron are rarely used as armor, why does mithral need to make good weapons?
I don't particularly care if mithral damages stuff as silver also so I don't actually object to it. The whole idea that it must have some value as a weapon is a little silly though. Are are going to now give some special traits to Cold Iron Armor?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Actually, there is very little reason to have a mithral weapon (other than the half-weight and hardness, there's little incentive for someone to spend all that extra gold). By making it the equivalent of silver, it gives a small reason for people to enjoy mithral weaponry.Why does every material need to be useful as a weapon and as armor? Adamantine or cold iron are rarely used as armor, why does mithral need to make good weapons?
I don't particularly care if mithral damages stuff as silver also so I don't actually object to it. The whole idea that it must have some value as a weapon is a little silly though. Are are going to now give some special traits to Cold Iron Armor?
Word...
Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Works well for me and it puts elven chain back as something special like it used to be.
Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I don't mind these ideas (I especially like the change to mithral armor types thing).
However, I think it's worth mentioning that mithral is an already heavily favored material. It's rare that my players take other materials, other than adamantine for weapons. Should the price of mithril be raised? There seems to be a very high demand for it after all.
However, I think it's worth mentioning that mithral is an already heavily favored material. It's rare that my players take other materials, other than adamantine for weapons. Should the price of mithril be raised? There seems to be a very high demand for it after all.
just dont let them have it as often, just because there is a demand does not mean there is an endless supply. After all not every town can get or every smith have the skills to work such materiel
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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No and thank you thank you thank you, this is actually how it should be. But just to be clear if my paladin gets mithril full plate, he still gets all the benefits he had before right? the nerf is that a barbarian can't get the same plate without the proficiency feat or they take non-proficiency penalties right?Correct... Paladin still gets all the benefits, Barbarian would suffer non-proficiency penalties (but would still keep fast movement).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What about other abilities or feats that interact with armor type? For instance, the Endurance feat lets you sleep in medium armor without penalties, would Mithril Plate Mail count for that? What about ranger virtual feats? Would they still work in a Mithril Breastplate?
What about other abilities or feats that interact with armor type? For instance, the Endurance feat lets you sleep in medium armor without penalties, would Mithril Plate Mail count for that? What about ranger virtual feats? Would they still work in a Mithril Breastplate?
I think what jason is getting at is it changes the weight but not the type. so it still counts as what ever type is was, full plate is still heavy and breast plate is still medium.
so if it does not work in the armor type it will not work with mithril armor either
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Well, it seems like this is going the way I thought it might...
Mithral armor gets a bit of a nerf.
Elven Chain becomes the unique exception.
Mithral weapons become enhanced silver....All of these things make sense to me... Objections?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingI don't mind these ideas (I especially like the change to mithral armor types thing).
However, I think it's worth mentioning that mithral is an already heavily favored material. It's rare that my players take other materials, other than adamantine for weapons. Should the price of mithril be raised? There seems to be a very high demand for it after all.
Traditionaly, mithril is worth ten times it's weight in gold...
Traditionaly, mithril is worth ten times it's weight in gold...
Actually, 1 suit of mithril chain=1 Shire, hobbits and all.
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Director of Game Design
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So, a little bit of expansion on these ideas.
1. Mithral weapons - I am all for this because of the lore behind mithral as True Silver. I agree that not all materials need to be good as weapons and armor, but this is one case where it should be both.
2. Mithral armor - There are a couple roads I can take with this... listed from least nerf, to most nerf.
A - Leave it the way it is...
B - Make it so that the armor counts as one class lighter in all regards, except for proficiency.
C - Remove the one class lighter bit entirely.
D - Come to your house and rip up all character sheets of PCs that, in my supreme opinion, are abusing mithral, replacing them with 1st level commoners built using the standard array (10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11).
I am thinking that B is the way to go.. although D sounds like fun, I just do not have the time. :-)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
"Come to your house and rip up all character sheets of PCs that, in my supreme opinion, are abusing mithral, replacing them with 1st level commoners built using the standard array (10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11)."
...Santa? Is that you?
B is great, but throw the ranger, bard and rouge a little something.
my self I would go C. It makes it lighter but doesnt really change its type so why should it allow folks that cant use heavy or med armor to use it? Its lighter but wears and restricts movement the same way.