All this analysis of 20th level characters misses the point. The biggest issue I have with Mystic Theurge is this: for the first 10 levels or so of his career, he contributes close to zero to the party, and they have to spend all their time babysitting him. Playing a MT is the ultimate exercise in pure selfishness.
Look at a sorcerer 3/cleric 2. We have a 5th level character who can channel only 1d6, and has only 1st level spells. Essentially, he is two cohorts (characters 2+ levels behind par), except that those cohorts don't even get separate actions, and if one dies, so does the other one. OK, so at 20th level he'll have lots of spells. So what? The other PCs are the issue: they spend 10+ levels pulling babysitting detail, only to allow this prima donna to steal the show later on. They lose out on both ends, big-time. It would bother me to play one myself, and I sure as anything don't like to play in a group where someone else has one: that's the case in Jal Dorak's Red Hand of Doom PBP, and we're getting our postteriors handed to us on a platter by level-appropriate encounters that are suddenly impossible, because a sorcerer 2/cleric 2 is a WHOLE lot worse than a 4th level sorcerer.
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All this analysis of 20th level characters misses the point. The biggest issue I have with Mystic Theurge is this: for the first 10 levels or so of his career, he contributes close to zero to the party, and they have to spend all their time babysitting him. Playing a MT is the ultimate exercise in pure selfishness.
Look at a sorcerer 3/cleric 2. We have a 5th level character who can channel only 1d6, and has only 1st level spells. Essentially, he is two cohorts (characters 2+ levels behind par), except that those cohorts don't even get separate actions, and if one dies, so does the other one. OK, so at 20th level he'll have lots of spells. So what? The other PCs are the issue: they spend 10+ levels pulling babysitting detail, only to allow this prima donna to steal the show later on. They lose out on both ends, big-time. It would bother me to play one myself, and I sure as anything don't like to play in a group where someone else has one: that's the case in Jal Dorak's Red Hand of Doom PBP, and we're getting our postteriors handed to us on a platter by level-appropriate encounters that are suddenly impossible, because a sorcerer 2/cleric 2 is a WHOLE lot worse than a 4th level sorcerer.
This is key. More spell slots may lead to a longer adventuring day and versatility in spell choices, but spells grow in power exponentially as they grow in level. Being denied a level of spells, or, god forbid, two, is a significant weakness when facing enemies of an appropriate power level. Throwing ghouls at a 4th level party isn't too awful - the cleric has remove paralysis and lesser restoration ...unless the party cleric is a cleric 2/wizard 2. Then...you're in trouble. This continues throughout the character's and group's career. So, what is the solution? giving the Mystic Theurge full advancement in both arcane and divine casting is equally unbalanced.
I think the easiest solution is something like:
Mystic Theurge
Hit Die: d6
Requirements: To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 5 ranks. Spells: able to cast 1st level divine and 2nd level arcane spells.
Class Skills: The mystic theurge's class skills and the key ability for each skill are Knowledge(arcana) Int, Knowledge(religion) Int, Sense Motive Wis, and Spellcraft Int.Skill Points at each level: 2+Int modifier.
Class Features:
Combined Casting: 1st level. You can cast both arcane and divine spells using the same casting method and abilities.
If you are a spontaneous caster, you may immediately add one 1st and one 2nd level divine spell from your divine spell list to your list of spells known. You can cast these spells as you would any arcane spell in your spontaneous arcane spell slots.
If you memorize spells from a spell book, you immediately gain one 1st and one 2nd level spellcasting slot. You may add divine spells from your divine spellcasting list to your spellbook in the same manner you add arcane spells. You may memorize and cast from these spells using your arcane spell slots.
Once you have Combined Casting, every time you gain new spells, whether spontaneous spells known or spells added to a spellbook, you may choose to add a spell from your divine spellcasting class list instead of your arcane spellcasting class list. You cast both your arcane and divine spells as if your were casting arcane spells, using your arcane casting stats and deriving spell DCs from your arcane casting stat.
Divine Studies: 1st level. Choose one of the following abilities from your divine spellcasting class: Animal Companion, Channel Energy, Domain Powers (added to your arcane casting), Spontaneous Casting. You add your Mystic Theurge level to your effective class level to determine your power in this ability.
Divine Spell Power: At second level, you may add one 3rd level divine spell to your spells known if you cast arcane spells spontaneously, and you gain an additional 3rd level spell slot if you cast arcane spells you've memorized from your spellbook. You may add a 4th level spell or spell slot in the same manner at 4th level, a 5th level spell or spell slot on your 6th mystic theurge level, a 6th level spell or spell slot on your 8th mystic theurge level and a 7th level spell or spell slot on your 10th level.
Spell Sythesis: At 3rd level, you gain a +2 bonus on your effective Caster Level for any spells you cast that are on both your arcane and divine spell lists. At 7th level, you gain another +2 bonus for a total of +4 on your effective Caster Level.
Bonus Feat: At 5th and 9th level, choose any metamagic or crafting feat that you meet the requirements for as a bonus feat.
Design Reasonings:
You can qualify for this prestige class with a good variety of build stubs, but in general you're probably looking at Cleric 1/Wizard 4, Cleric 1/Sorceror 4, Cleric 2/Wizard 3, Druid 1/Wizard 4, Druid 1/Sorceror 4, Druid 2/Wizard 3. Sorcerors gain more spells known and the ability to cast divine spells - Wizards gain additional spell slots and the ability to scribe divine spells into their spellbook for casting.
The design goal is to allow a crossover of divine and arcane casting without lowering the power of the double caster so much they're useless, or raising the power of the double caster so much they're the obviously better choice. As the divine, in this incarnation, takes a back seat to the arcane rules (mostly to prevent full access to both the divine and arcane spell list when using divine casting and memorization), I added some class progression in one of the divine class's secondary abilities. To add a little punch for the lost caster level(s), I added spell synthesis so spells on both lists are more powerful or last longer, and the bonus feats to add a little more versatility. This gives the caster the versatility of both lists without adding significantly to their power over a single classed caster, or subtracting too much from them by delaying their access to high level spells for a long time.
Sample Builds:
- Cleric 1/Sorceror 4/Mystic Theurge 10/Sorceror 5: This caster chooses channeling for the healing. He channels as an 11th level cleric (6d6) many times/day due to high Charisma. This caster has an extra spell known for 1-7th levels, and casts as a 19th level Sorceror - only with divine spells in his repertoire.
- Druid 2/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 5: This caster casts as an 18th level wizard and casts summon nature's ally spontaneously. With a general focus in conjuration, this wizard/druid is wise in the ways of the woods and never lacks for companionship in his travels.
There might be room for adding Wild Shape to Divine Studies, or maybe someone can come up with a non-overpowering way to add an "Arcane Studies" ability to the class. What do you think? Does this keep enough of the "crossover" flavor? Does it overpower straight spellcasting classes? Or suck significantly more than them?
How come threads I contribute to always die?
I'm still digesting your proposed MT. It looks good, but I haven't gotten into my "look for potential for abuse" mind-set yet.
I do like most of your takes on game design, though. Something I've been toying with is designing a point-buy system (a la GURPS) -- perfect for hybrids like the MT -- that's still compatible with 3.5 and Pathfinder adventures: pick 'em up and run, no conversion of monsters/NPCs needed. Any interest in collaborating?
*sigh*
How come threads I contribute to always die?
I know the feeling.
Anyways, I see what you're going for here, basically an arcanist who splashes divine spellcasting.
Though, another way to look at it would be to examine the possibilities and make a decision on the question "How much of a sacrifice should a caster make from his primary spellcasting progression?"
Assuming each level of Mystic Theurge advances both divine and arcane:
-Is a 3-level sacrifice too much? Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge?
-Is a 1-level sacrifice too little? Wiz4/Clr1/Theurge or Clr4/Wiz1/Theurge?
-Is a 2-level sacrifice just right? Wiz3/Clr2/Theurge or Clr3/Wiz2/Theurge?
Now, though the current Theurge is a tough call, I have played with an effective one before. He just did a really good job of making low-level spells like Grease, Silence, Glitterdust, and Ray of Enfeeblement be relevant at the level I played with him at, party level 10. So what if he didn't have Cone of Cold; he was awesome just by throwing Evard's Black Tentacles followed by Silence, and he still had Delay Death in reserve!
-Matt
My two bits: change the prerequisites to...
Ability to cast 2nd level spells, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks
Then you can enter as a wizard 3/cleric 3, or a bard 4/druid 2, or a cleric 5/sorcerer 1, etc., etc.
Something I've been toying with is designing a point-buy system (a la GURPS) -- perfect for hybrids like the MT -- that's still compatible with 3.5 and Pathfinder adventures: pick 'em up and run, no conversion of monsters/NPCs needed. Any interest in collaborating?
If you look for a point-buy system for OGL gaming, do you know "Buy the Numbers" by Spencer Cooley? I hope the linkworks, as it does not seem to from here.
Stefan
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You love me! You really love me!
</gush>
I'm still digesting your proposed MT. It looks good, but I haven't gotten into my "look for potential for abuse" mind-set yet.
I do like most of your takes on game design, though. Something I've been toying with is designing a point-buy system (a la GURPS) -- perfect for hybrids like the MT -- that's still compatible with 3.5 and Pathfinder adventures: pick 'em up and run, no conversion of monsters/NPCs needed. Any interest in collaborating?
I would be interested in collaborating. :) Sounds like fun! I tried to limit the abuse by going with the arcane casting instead of divine - automagically limiting the spell list - and by only progressing one spellcasting list - balancing against full casters, except for the lost of 1-2 casting levels. The concern is that the increased freedom balances against the loss of a caster level or two.
I know the feeling.
Anyways, I see what you're going for here, basically an arcanist who splashes divine spellcasting.
Though, another way to look at it would be to examine the possibilities and make a decision on the question "How much of a sacrifice should a caster make from his primary spellcasting progression?"
Assuming each level of Mystic Theurge advances both divine and arcane:
-Is a 3-level sacrifice too much? Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge?
-Is a 1-level sacrifice too little? Wiz4/Clr1/Theurge or Clr4/Wiz1/Theurge?
-Is a 2-level sacrifice just right? Wiz3/Clr2/Theurge or Clr3/Wiz2/Theurge?Now, though the current Theurge is a tough call, I have played with an effective one before. He just did a really good job of making low-level spells like Grease, Silence, Glitterdust, and Ray of Enfeeblement be relevant at the level I played with him at, party level 10. So what if he didn't have Cone of Cold; he was awesome just by throwing Evard's Black Tentacles followed by Silence, and he still had Delay Death in reserve!
-Matt
My design goal was: combine arcane and divine spellcasting, divine and arcane flavor, but in the simplest way to keep balance against full spellcasting. the simplest way to do it is to take something already balanced - the spellcasting from a single class. I chose arcane to keep spells castable somewhat limited - instead of using cleric / druid slots and let htem pick anything from any list. wizards get great bonuses from taking spontaneous casting - cures or summons, and get an extra slot / level through 7th to get a little more freedom. Sorcerors and bards get really nice boosts to versatility by gaining extra spells known, and spontaneous casting increases that further (essentially one extra spell known / level) or channelling with high charisma is very nice.
Maybe I need to address spontaneous divine casting with sorcerors. Hrm. Thoughts?
While I agree that the current MT is playable, it's something of a trap because you must be a very experienced player to do it well without penalizing your group. I tried to keep the alternate MT as simple as possible, without traps of missing spell levels, prerequisites that confuse beginning players, etc.
My two bits: change the prerequisites to...
Ability to cast 2nd level spells, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks
Then you can enter as a wizard 3/cleric 3, or a bard 4/druid 2, or a cleric 5/sorcerer 1, etc., etc.
As the proposed alternate class only progresses arcane casting, allowing a player to enter with only second level casting in divine class messes the rest of the class up quite significantly. I can see upping the entry level to 7 instead of six if you really want to, doesn't matter too much to me, but with a cleric 5/sorc 1 entry, the character has poor arcane casting, but that's where all his spells come from. He also gains addtional spells known of a level he can't yet cast. It really screws with the progression and can deceive inexperienced players into building a nearly unplayable broken character.
If you look for a point-buy system for OGL gaming, do you know "Buy the Numbers" by Spencer Cooley? I hope the linkworks, as it does not seem to from here.
I've tried many times to purchase that PDF, but I can't seem to get orders to go through at DriveThruRPG (or any of its mirrors), from home or work.
As the proposed alternate class only progresses arcane casting, allowing a player to enter with only second level casting in divine class messes the rest of the class up quite significantly.
I wasn't talking about your variant, I was talking about the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge class.
You love me! You really love me!
Um... as long as you mean that strictly in a "respects me as a gamer" way, and not in any kind of bizarre stalker kind of way...
I would be interested in collaborating. Sounds like fun!
OK; does houstonderek have your email? If so, I can send you what I've done so far (assuming the statment above is correct). Trying to get point values to mesh is a real pain in the neck -- even for a professional data cruncher like me -- and a perfect fit may well prove to be impossible.
My two bits: change the prerequisites to...
Ability to cast 2nd level spells, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks
Then you can enter as a wizard 3/cleric 3, or a bard 4/druid 2, or a cleric 5/sorcerer 1, etc., etc.
Unless I'm missing it, you could also enter as a sorcerer 6/cleric 0. Then, at 20th level, you'd cast spells as a sorcerer 20/cleric 10.
Unless I'm missing it, you could also enter as a sorcerer 6/cleric 0. Then, at 20th level, you'd cast spells as a sorcerer 20/cleric 10.My two bits: change the prerequisites to...
Ability to cast 2nd level spells, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks
Then you can enter as a wizard 3/cleric 3, or a bard 4/druid 2, or a cleric 5/sorcerer 1, etc., etc.
No, you would get +1 level in any divine spellcasting class you have (which is none). There is no such thing as a "cleric 0" (unless you're talking about 3.0 DMG apprentice classes).
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Um... as long as you mean that strictly in a "respects me as a gamer" way, and not in any kind of bizarre stalker kind of way...You love me! You really love me!
Just being silly, since my whiney complaint got some responses. :)
I would be interested in collaborating. Sounds like fun!OK; does houstonderek have your email? If so, I can send you what I've done so far (assuming the statment above is correct). Trying to get point values to mesh is a real pain in the neck -- even for a professional data cruncher like me -- and a perfect fit may well prove to be impossible.
He does have my e-mail address.
He does have my e-mail address.
Great, I'll give him a call pretty soon, write up a quick summary of what I've already found, and send you some (very) draft material... you'll be getting in on the ground floor, as it were. I did something like this myself for 1e once that worked well, but I get the feeling that, for 3.X, you and I together could make something four times as good as I myself alone would come up with.
Jess, Kirth, you guys interested in one more hand? I'm deffinitely interested in seeing what we can come up with. If you don't mind another influence on the little project, I'll throw my email in here so you can get ahold of me.
If you want to help playest and make suggestions, much like Paizo is doing with PF, that would be cool.
I should hasten to add that the whole point of this project (the "mission statement," if you will) is to allow GURPS/Rolemaster/James Bond 007 system fans to subscribe to and be able to use Pathfinder adventures without conversion. In other words, I'm trying to expand Paizo's market, rather than cut into it.
Great!
Hogarth, Matt, and Everyone else: Sincere apologies for the thread-jack. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled Pathfinder Mystic Theurge discussion.
Mystic Theurge
Hit Die: d6Requirements: To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 5 ranks. Spells: able to cast 1st level divine and 2nd level arcane spells.
Class Features:
Combined Casting: 1st level. You can cast both arcane and divine spells using the same casting method and abilities.If you are a spontaneous caster, you may immediately add one 1st and one 2nd level divine spell from your divine spell list to your list of spells known. You can cast these spells as you would any arcane spell in your spontaneous arcane spell slots.
If you memorize spells from a spell book, you immediately gain one 1st and one 2nd level spellcasting slot. You may add divine spells from your divine spellcasting list to your spellbook in the same manner you add arcane spells. You may memorize and cast from these spells using your arcane spell slots.
Once you have Combined Casting, every time you gain new spells, whether spontaneous spells known or spells added to a spellbook, you may choose to add a spell from your divine spellcasting class list instead of your arcane spellcasting class list. You cast both your arcane and divine spells as if your were casting arcane spells, using your arcane casting stats and deriving spell DCs from your arcane casting stat.
Divine Studies: 1st level. Choose one of the following abilities from your divine spellcasting class: Animal Companion, Channel Energy, Domain Powers (added to your arcane casting), Spontaneous Casting. You add your Mystic Theurge level to your effective class level to determine your power in this ability.
Divine Spell Power: At second level, you may add one 3rd level divine spell to your spells known if you cast arcane spells spontaneously, and you gain an additional 3rd level spell slot if you cast arcane spells you've memorized from your spellbook. You may add a 4th level spell or spell slot in the same manner at 4th level, a 5th level spell or spell slot on your 6th mystic theurge level, a 6th level spell or spell slot on your 8th mystic theurge level and a 7th level spell or spell slot on your 10th level.
Spell Sythesis: At 3rd level, you gain a +2 bonus on your effective Caster Level for any spells you cast that are on both your arcane and divine spell lists. At 7th level, you gain another +2 bonus for a total of +4 on your effective Caster Level.
Bonus Feat: At 5th and 9th level, choose any metamagic or crafting feat that you meet the requirements for as a bonus feat.
Excellent write up! I think it removes the trap of the mid level MT but retains the flavor and design of casting from both Arcane and Divine spells.
Very nice!
I don't like the idea of entering MT with heavily staggered, primary/secondary caster levels. I think it goes against the spirit of the PrC. What if instead of fixing MT, we fixed the core multi-classing rules, to uncripple the levels leading up to MT?
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I don't like the idea of entering MT with heavily staggered, primary/secondary caster levels. I think it goes against the spirit of the PrC. What if instead of fixing MT, we fixed the core multi-classing rules, to uncripple the levels leading up to MT?
Well, my hope was the rewriting, sticking to one casting class but adding spells from the other would be enough of a mix to feel right - sure, you've got that level of divine casting that feels a little weird, but it's pretty close in power and better in versatility without lagging too much or getting too much for paying too little.
As for changing the multiclassing rules...what are you thinking of?
Director of Games
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Hey there everybody,
I have spent a lot of time thinking about the Mystic Theurge and I am pretty convinced that the RAW are relatively balanced. The additional spells is a roughly equal tradeoff for the lack of higher levels spells and other class abilities. I am not saying that there are not situations where the powers of this class are not better or worse than the norm, but I think these are generally uncommon enough in play to avoid changing the class to drastically.
That said, there are some solid points being made in this thread... and I am still listening.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The additional spells is a roughly equal tradeoff for the lack of higher levels spells and other class abilities.
I agree; my problem, again, isn't with the power level of the MT itself, but with the burden on the rest of the PCs while a character is trying to qualify -- a sorcerer 3/cleric 2 is in no way anywhere near as useful as any other 5th level character you'd care to name, unless it's 5 levels in an NPC class. Not sure how to fix that, though -- but unless it is amended, no sane person will EVER want to play in a group that includes an aspiring MT, unless the DM is very understanding and intentionally scales back the challenges quite a bit.
The additional spells is a roughly equal tradeoff for the lack of higher levels spells and other class abilities.I agree; my problem, again, isn't with the power level of the MT itself, but with the burden on the rest of the PCs while a character is trying to qualify -- a sorcerer 3/cleric 2 is in no way anywhere near as useful as any other 5th level character you'd care to name, unless it's 5 levels in an NPC class. Not sure how to fix that, though -- but unless it is amended, no sane person will EVER want to play in a group that includes an aspiring MT, unless the DM is very understanding and intentionally scales back the challenges quite a bit.
Isn't that true for any multi class PrC? Arcane trickster with 5 levels of wizard and 3 levels of rogue is pretty weak also. Eldritch Knight suffers similarly.
Isn't that true for any multi class PrC? Arcane trickster with 5 levels of wizard and 3 levels of rogue is pretty weak also. Eldritch Knight suffers similarly.
I agree; that's why I think that there should be more flexibility on entering those "multiclass" prestige classes (e.g. why can't I enter the arcane trickster class with a rogue 5/wizard 3? and why can't I enter the mystic theurge as a sorcerer 4/druid 2?).
PS: What, not going to email Kirth? lol
I wanted to wait until I had something substantial to email! That might take a while, unfortunately :(
Isn't that true for any multi class PrC? Arcane trickster with 5 levels of wizard and 3 levels of rogue is pretty weak also. Eldritch Knight suffers similarly.
The problem is far less extreme with other combinations; a 4th level wizard gets +2 BAB (for those EldKt builds), and a rogue 2/wizard 2 is like a rogue 4 with a few less skill points, but awesome synergy from even 1st level spells (sneak attack +1d6 with an at-will ray of frost, and disable traps using hand of the apprentice in case you fail...).
A 4th level cleric gets +0 to arcane spellcasting, however.
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The additional spells is a roughly equal tradeoff for the lack of higher levels spells and other class abilities. I am not saying that there are not situations where the powers of this class are not better or worse than the norm, but I think these are generally uncommon enough in play to avoid changing the class to drastically.
Isn't that true for any multi class PrC? Arcane trickster with 5 levels of wizard and 3 levels of rogue is pretty weak also. Eldritch Knight suffers similarly.The problem is far less extreme with other combinations; a 4th level wizard gets +2 BAB (for those EldKt builds), and a rogue 2/wizard 2 is like a rogue 4 with a few less skill points, but awesome synergy from even 1st level spells (sneak attack +1d6 with an at-will ray of frost, and disable traps using hand of the apprentice in case you fail...).
A 4th level cleric gets +0 to arcane spellcasting, however.
Non-spellcasting classes get some boosts from getting spellcasting - if the spellcasting is chosen carefully. It takes skill, but is usually not crippling - especially because I don't often see a prospective arcane trickster that is expected to fulfill full arcane casting repsonsibilities...or a prospective eldritch knight character expected to fulfill full arcane casting responsibilities. But a mystic theurge is usually expected to be the "designated caster" for either arcane or divine magic...and they're lacking the best tools in the toolkit.
Picking the most iconic or powerful spells available to the following characters:
A 7th level wizard has access to: Bestow Curse, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Remove Curse, Scrying, Stone Shape
A 7th level cleric has access to such as : Death Ward, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal, Freedom of Movement, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Sending and Spell Immunity.
A 7th level wizard 3 cleric 3 mt 1 has access to: Aid, Alter Self, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Darkvision, Delay Poison, Hold Person, Invisibility, Knock, Lesser Restoration, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Silence, Web.
Sure, the mystic theurge has access to a greater variety of magics...but the power level between being able to cast 2nd and 4th level spells is gigantic. There's simply no comparison. Level appropriate challenges assume the players have access to level appropriate magic. Add in the fact that the power of spells tend to grow exponentially with level, and this gap can easily lead to an invalidation of the current level appropriate adventure as a whole due to challenges that cannot be met due to the nature of a prestige class that is offered in the core ruleset.
Can a good game be played with the mystic theurge in its current incarnation? Yes. It requires a good DM, a good player, and and understanding party. Should a base prestige class force this brittleness on a campaign? I would submit...No.
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I've seen the 3.5 version used to great effect - I don't think it's subpar at all. You're right that you get a lot more spells than you can cast in a typical day's worth of fights, even using quicken spell. However, the key is buffs, buffs, buffs. With all of those spells, you can put together quite the suite of long duration buffs (either 1 hr/level, or 10 min/level extended).
Take 'Persistent Spell' from FRCS, and you'll truly see what a broken monster a high-level Mystic Theurge can be... all those buffs lasting for 24 hours!
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I've seen the 3.5 version used to great effect - I don't think it's subpar at all. You're right that you get a lot more spells than you can cast in a typical day's worth of fights, even using quicken spell. However, the key is buffs, buffs, buffs. With all of those spells, you can put together quite the suite of long duration buffs (either 1 hr/level, or 10 min/level extended).Take 'Persistent Spell' from FRCS, and you'll truly see what a broken monster a high-level Mystic Theurge can be... all those buffs lasting for 24 hours!
One dispel magic or greater dispel magic and you will mourn for your lost caster levels. :)
Mystic Theurge isn't useless, it's just a deceptive prestige class for all but experienced players, and increases the brittleness of adventure design for a party.
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I've seen the 3.5 version used to great effect - I don't think it's subpar at all. You're right that you get a lot more spells than you can cast in a typical day's worth of fights, even using quicken spell. However, the key is buffs, buffs, buffs. With all of those spells, you can put together quite the suite of long duration buffs (either 1 hr/level, or 10 min/level extended).Take 'Persistent Spell' from FRCS, and you'll truly see what a broken monster a high-level Mystic Theurge can be... all those buffs lasting for 24 hours!One dispel magic or greater dispel magic and you will mourn for your lost caster levels. :)
Mystic Theurge isn't useless, it's just a deceptive prestige class for all but experienced players, and increases the brittleness of adventure design for a party.
Well, being able to hurl 8th level wizard *and* cleric spells around is a big deal to me. And Dispel Magic may make him cry momentarily, but the trick is to cast the spells just before resting (i.e. night) so that they last until the next night -- that way you can buff yourself with "fresh" slots, if they're dispelled.
As for changing the multiclassing rules...what are you thinking of?
I was thinking that levels outside your spellcasting class could each give 1/4 spell progression. That way multi-classing doesn't lag your spellcasting quite as badly. For example
Ftr9/Wiz1 = Wiz1 casting
Ftr9/Wiz2 = Wiz3 casting
Ftr9/Wiz3 = Wiz4 casting
Ftr9/Wiz4 = Wiz6 casting
Ftr9/Wiz5 = Wiz7 casting
Ftr9/Wiz6 = Wiz8 casting, and so on ...
* I was also thinking of not counting the first level in another class if it gives you BAB +1.
What this means for MT is that at Clr4/Sor4/MT1, you cast at 6th rather than 5th level in both cleric and sorcerer. At Clr4/Sor2 on your way to MT, you cast at Clr4/Sor3; and at Clr4/Sor4, you cast at Clr5/Sor5. Further MT levels would not up the bonus, since they already add to the level of an existing spellcasting class or classes.
I thought this was better than fixing MT, since it fixes a similar problem for other PrCs, and for multi-classing in general. It's also less likely to unbalance MT relative to other PrCs.
Maybe this doesn't seem so far out when you consider that wizard already gives you 1/2 BAB progression as a fighter.
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Well, being able to hurl 8th level wizard *and* cleric spells around is a big deal to me. And Dispel Magic may make him cry momentarily, but the trick is to cast the spells just before resting (i.e. night) so that they last until the next night -- that way you can buff yourself with "fresh" slots, if they're dispelled.
It's very nice at high level. The issue is you only have 15 caster levels in each, you have very few of those spells, and straight casters have had those eighth level spells for 4 full levels before you got a whiff of them. Also, in most cases you're maintaining two caster stats to get decent DCs, etc - or you're not attacking, you're mostly a buffer because you can't keep those DCs up.
Mystic Theurge is playable. But it's deceptive to present it to new players because they don't understand that the exponential scaling nature of spells as they increase in level and their lagging caster level and casting stats will lead to significant difficulties for them, the rest of their party that has to make up the slack in high level spells in some manner, and the DM that may have to redo fully level appropriate encounters simply because the party, missing a full arcane or divine caster, simply can't surivive it.
There are lots of tricks you can use to mitigate the weaknesses of the class...but look at the effort being expended to make playable something that's presented as a core option to players. Wouldn't it be better to design the class to scale well in the first place?
Or, as minkscooter suggested, fix multiclassing with regard to spellcasting progression. Allowing multiclass spellcasters to advance in spellcasting as multiclass character advance in martial ability, saves, and skill ranks might go farther to fix this problem - and then the multiclass caster/something else prestige classes become about the special abilities they add, rather than simply patching the spellcasting multiclassing mechanic. (Since spellcasting is so much more powerful than BaB or even saves, I like the very slow progression - 1 spellcaster level / 4 other class levels)
Or, if you think MT is powerful, look at the possible builds for it in the levels at which most people spend the most time playing: i.e., 1st through 12th. EVERYONE looks powerful at 20th level!
On that problem, what if we made a feat that covered it, was a requirement for entry into Mystic Theurge, and was then improved upon by the class.
Multi-caster:
Spoiler:(I know the name sucks, any ideas would be appreciated.)Requirements: any spells known, and a caster level of at least 1 in two or more casting classes.
Benefit- This character has taken levels in multiple casting classes, and has devoted themselves to the combined study of their arts. As a result, the casterlevel of each class is equal to that of their combined caster levels.
Normal- caster levels are determined by class/prestige class levels that progress the casting (Slightly better, and yet slightly worse, than practiced spellcaster.)
Special- levels in dual casting progression PrC's are ignored by this feat, unless the character has 3 different casting classes, in which case each level in the dual-casting class is treated as one level.
It doesn't help with the spells known, but it will make that burning hands, or that cure light wounds function better, and it will make buffs and controlls last longer. Also this feat would allow the MT to have the full caster level all the way through (unless they dip into non-casting for some unknown reason) and as such at least their buffs etc will last as long and be as potent as the same spells from full casters (they just don't have as big of spells)
Any thoughts guys?
Yep - this basically implements MR (Magic Rating) from Unearthed Arcana - open content - via a feat.
Honestly I just use MR normally anyways, it makes too much sense, and probably skews my perception of Mystic Theurge a bit. Having this feat in core would be a good alternative I suppose.
On the feat itself - it shouldn't require the prereqs. It gives no benefit at all if you don't meet them, so no reason to restrict it.
Or, if you think MT is powerful, look at the possible builds for it in the levels at which most people spend the most time playing: i.e., 1st through 12th. EVERYONE looks powerful at 20th level!
This is a good point. We are testplaying the MT now and have since they came out since it was an issue in 3.5. So far in the lower levels if you go MT as soon as possible, they are very average to say the least. A good number of lower level spells, but nothing great. As he has increased in level the MT becomes more and more useful as is in the rules now. Even if the MT was our only caster (and he is not), it would fill a nice hole.
Assessment so far, like a low level wizard, if you can survive for a few levels or MT, you will be a very useful 'utility' character with some power behind you eventually.
If you are looking for the one mighty spell punch, the dont go MT go WIZ or SORC. The MT seems to fill a need and does it well (so far) Cant wait for a couple of more level to see how it continues.
The Epitome of of spell casters...the wizard at 20th level gets only 46 total spells per day and 196 Total Spell Levels. Compare that to the level 7 WIZ/3 CLER/10 MT and you will see that the MT casts 72 spells per day compared to a wizards 46 or 52 of the 10wiz/10 Cler. The MT also casts 236 Spell levels (zero level still count as 0 as they are unlimited for all examples) compared to 118 for the 10wiz/10 cler and 196 for the straight level 20 Wiz. For Pure Spell casting the Mystic Theurge dwarfs any other core casting in the game.
The math on all this looks good, except that it doesn't take into account the relative "worth" of each of those spell levels.
If this were treated like Psionics, where lower level slots could be "added up" to cast a 9th level spell, etc, then yeah.. the MT would destroy any other caster build.
However, the very thing people dislike about the vancian slot system is what keeps the MT's power in check.
I can't quote it, but from what I remember, an 8th level slot is considered only 75% of the power of a 9th level slot... and a 7th level slot is considered only 75% of an 8th, etc.
This means 1st level spell slots aren't "worth" as much as a 9th level slot. You'd need around 10 1st level spell slots to match a 9th level slot (10 magic missiles is like 150 damage, which is close to damage of a 9th level spell, but still limited to needing 10 standard actions).
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Adding up all the spell levels of the different builds, here's the numbers I get in "equivalent spell levels" (ESLs):
*Note* This is taking out the 0 level spells.
Wiz 20
103.137 ESL
Wiz 10, Clr 10
25.206 ESL
Wiz 5, Clr 5, MT 10
77.446 ESL
Wiz 7, Clr 3, MT 10
85 ESL
Now, what the MT has going for him is the fact that he can cast two spells per round, and the versatility of casting extra Cleric or Wizard spells by sacrificing his other casting type's slots (up to 2 levels lower, 5th max I believe).
Twin spellcasting makes up for the 15ish spell levels lost... it's like quickened spell without having to have lower level spells in the higher slots.
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However, in the end, for pure spell level power, a pure caster is still the king as far as I can see here.
The MT is actually quite balanced, except for the general Prestige Class issue with needing to wait something like 7 or 10 levels before realizing your character's concept.
In all honesty, the only thing I'd consider changing beyond the Pathfinder updates for the MT (and maybe the Eldritch Knight), is the entry requirements.
Unlike most other classes, the point of these classes is to fix multiclassing holes. This should be allowed for entry much sooner than standard classes, especially since the bonuses they give aren't really level based (no evasion, uncanny dodge, specific powers). Endcap abilities on these prestige classes are still going to be fairly high level (in the teens), and based on the spells/weapons of the user so automatically limited in power there too.
I'd consider dropping the prerequisites down to the following:
Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion) ranks 2
Know 1st level Divine and 1st level Arcane spells
and maybe one of those +2/+2 skill focus feats that relates to magic
Then, on some of the MT levels that you gain a particular nice bonus, you only increase one of your divine classes, then one of your arcane classes. This limits the upper level limit of the builds (so you don't have 19th level Wizard, 11th level cleric potentials... instead getting 17th level Wizard, 13th level cleric or something similar).
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This would allow a person to enter the Prestige class by 3rd level, and start mixing his magic right off the bat. It also means the Sorcerer isn't unduly restricted from accessing the prestige class.
Take the level limitations out of the prerequisites, and put it into the later levels of the class itself. Early entry to realize your concept sooner, while still keeping it balanced.