My personal take is that if the prevailing mindset is "We have to do something about SOD/SOS because when my character's not doing anything/incapable of doing something, I'll get bored and go read a book or play a video game and overall not have fun," well, then it's not necessarily a system mechanics problem. At some point, whether by design of the story or a bad roll of the dice, a bad, incapacitating roll will very likely happen, and the only way to completely negate it is to nix the possibility that any player-character can be killed.
Yes, but we already have mechanics to protect against a single bad die roll from taking out your character (or a monster you are fighting)... They are called Hit Points.
Save or Die (or be incapacitated) spells circumvent that whole mechanic and throw the dynamics of the game out the window. Now instead of a monster wearing your HP down with attack after attack, a single die roll determines if you live or die... Even if you are fully buffed, at full HP and ready to fight!
Yes, technically most of them are save or be disabled/rendered useless. But the real problem with them is that it's not something that can be easily (as in healing potions, cure spells, etc) recovered from. So unless your cleric happened to memorize that exact counter spell that day, you are done.
Taking a character out of play for multiple sessions or forcing a return to town to get just the right scroll because of a single missed saving throw is not what most people consider a fun use of their gaming time and I think should be avoided where possible.
hmarcbower wrote:
They are tough spells, but to give repeated saves really does drop the level of those spells by at least 2 if you're going to consider this. I highly recommend against it.
At the level these spells come into play, taking someone out of combat for even a single round can often be worth the spell cost.
In 3.5, when Hold Person gained the additional save each round, it went from a Save or Die spell to a balanced spell that could still take you out for the entire combat, but added some protection against just a bad roll.
I agree that it could use a boost as well. When you get it at 7th level, other spells (that require saves, touch attacks, etc) are doing 7d6 vs the Ice Storm at 5d6.
Pretty much the only people who memorize Ice Storm are Druids, as just about every DD wizard/sorc spell does more damage.
Given that, I would say change to 3d6 bludge damage and 1d6 cold damage per 2 caster levels.
Here are some of the Save or Die spells that I think need to be modified to allow additional saves, effects, etc.
Baleful Polymorph -- add ongoing save/round to the will save component (for loss of Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma scores, special abilities, etc)
Dominate Person/Monster -- add a new saving throw each day
Feeblemind -- add ongoing will save each round, perhaps also make it a round/level duration
Flesh to Stone -- Create a tiered save, 1st round slowed, 2nd round paralyzed, 3rd round turned to stone, with a fort save at each. Perhaps add that even a successful save does not stop spell, so if you save against Slowed on the 1st round, you could still be effected the 2nd or 3rd round.
I suppose, but Short Haft and Dervish are non-core. Core/ PfRPG the Guisarme wielder is left unable to attack adjacent targets. You can also use TWF and Weapon Finesse with the chain which you cannot do with the Guisarme.
Yes, but a Guisarme wielder can wear spiked gauntlets or have armor spikes and gain the same advantages (attack adjacent, TWF and Finesse) without spending an extra feat.
In 3.5 there were some Trip focused builds that could "exploit" the spiked chain. I would say that the Trip/CMB nerf in PfRPG has done away with that.... Which simply makes the Spiked Chain a weapon that fills the exotic reach weapon niche.
This means that a wizard trying to make a wand of cure light wounds without help would be looking at a DC of 21...
That said, we could move to say that the spell must still be on your spell list. This prevents the above named oddity. We could also say that the spells must not come from a prohibited school (in the case of wizards), but this seems punitive, considering the new school rules.
I think that any Spell Trigger item (scrolls, wands, etc) must have the required spell cast once per day (or fraction thereof) of creation time.
This prevents case of Wizards/Sorcerers creating potions of CLW, but still allows for a Wizard plus his Cleric friend to make them.
Requirements: To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge(arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 5 ranks. Spells: able to cast 1st level divine and 2nd level arcane spells.
Class Features:
Combined Casting: 1st level. You can cast both arcane and divine spells using the same casting method and abilities.
If you are a spontaneous caster, you may immediately add one 1st and one 2nd level divine spell from your divine spell list to your list of spells known. You can cast these spells as you would any arcane spell in your spontaneous arcane spell slots.
If you memorize spells from a spell book, you immediately gain one 1st and one 2nd level spellcasting slot. You may add divine spells from your divine spellcasting list to your spellbook in the same manner you add arcane spells. You may memorize and cast from these spells using your arcane spell slots.
Once you have Combined Casting, every time you gain new spells, whether spontaneous spells known or spells added to a spellbook, you may choose to add a spell from your divine spellcasting class list instead of your arcane spellcasting class list. You cast both your arcane and divine spells as if your were casting arcane spells, using your arcane casting stats and deriving spell DCs from your arcane casting stat.
Divine Studies: 1st level. Choose one of the following abilities from your divine spellcasting class: Animal Companion, Channel Energy, Domain Powers (added to your arcane casting), Spontaneous Casting. You add your Mystic Theurge level to your effective class level to determine your power in this ability.
Divine Spell Power: At second level, you may add one 3rd level divine spell to your spells known if you cast arcane spells spontaneously, and you gain an additional 3rd level spell slot if you cast arcane spells you've memorized from your spellbook. You may add a 4th level spell or spell slot in the same manner at 4th level, a 5th level spell or spell slot on your 6th mystic theurge level, a 6th level spell or spell slot on your 8th mystic theurge level and a 7th level spell or spell slot on your 10th level.
Spell Sythesis: At 3rd level, you gain a +2 bonus on your effective Caster Level for any spells you cast that are on both your arcane and divine spell lists. At 7th level, you gain another +2 bonus for a total of +4 on your effective Caster Level.
Bonus Feat: At 5th and 9th level, choose any metamagic or crafting feat that you meet the requirements for as a bonus feat.
Excellent write up! I think it removes the trap of the mid level MT but retains the flavor and design of casting from both Arcane and Divine spells.
Here's the inherit problem with this suggestion: if the MT had full progression in one type of spellcasting (let's use sorcerers for example), then every other PrC with full casting progression options for sorcerers would pale in comparison. Honestly, being able to compete with other full arcane spellcasters while having potent divine spells would get out of hand very quickly.
It does not continue bloodline bonus feats/abilities for Sorcerers, so it would be a sacrifice for them in some ways. In addition, Sorcerers would still be limited by the # of spells known, they would just be able to pick from the Divine and Arcane spell lists. I hardly call that overpowered.
However, if you approach it from a Cleric side. Gaining full Cleric spells casting, but also being able to cherry pick the best arcane spells could be unbalancing. You would sacrifice Channel effectiveness, Domain abilities, etc, but it might just be too much. Perhaps a requirement that the opposite spells known must be 1 level lower than the max you can cast. So a Cleric casting 3rd level Divine spells could also pick up two 2nd level Arcane spells each level. That way they would never get 9th level arcane spells.
I think what I am currently arguing against is the explicit trap of the MT. It seems like a huge win, gaining both Divine and Arcane spell casting progression, but the only time it's effective is when there are no other casters in the group.
Stop asking for a buff to the Mystic Theruge. This is one of the most appealing PrC's that accomplishes what it is meant to: to give the character a wide variety of spellcasting options.
The conflict here is power vs. versatility.
Yes, it's a trade off of Power vs. Versatility. But if your group has a Cleric or a Wizard in the party, that nullifies the trade off. A PrC that is only good for parties with no Wizard and no Cleric seems sub-optimal.
Because MT's are 3 caster levels behind in each class lets take a look at several key class functions:
1) Blaster at 11th level
+ Wizards are casting 10d6 Fireballs
++ Better yet, Wizards are casting 11d6 Chain Lightning
- MTs are casting 8d6 Fireballs
-- MTs don't get chain lighting for another 3 levels
+ Clerics are casting 11d6 Flame Strikes
- MTs don't get Flame Strike for another level
2) Buffing at 7th level
+ Wizard has been casting Haste for 3 levels now
- MTs don't get Haste for another level
+ Wizard/Cleric buffs last for 7 rounds
- MTs buffs last for 4 rounds
+ Wizard/Cleric has Protection from Energy (84 points)
- MTs don't get PfE for another level
3) Buffing at 12th level
+ Cleric/Wizard spells are lasting for 12 rounds
- MTs are lasting for 9 rounds
+ Wizards are casting Anti-Magic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Acid Fog, True Seeing, etc
+ Clerics are casting Antilife Shell, Heroes' Feast, Mass Bulls/Bears/etc spells, Heal/Harm, Wind Walk
+ Clerics cast Magic Vestment/Magic Weapon/etc at +3
- MTs are casting Magic Vestment/Magic Weapon/etc at +2
It seems like MTs would be the best buffers/battlefield control/support casters, but because of their retarded spell level progression, they are significantly weaker than straight caster class progressions.
What would be better in line with a straight classes power and still keep the versatility would be a PrC that continues full spell casting for a class, but allows them to cherry pick spells from the other class lists. That way you loose special class abilities (Familiar advancement, Bonus feats, Turn Undead, etc) but gain spell casting versatility... which is the real goal of the PrC.
Given the arguments put forth so far, I don't see Jason making any changes to this PrC, but I thought I'd at least put forth the idea.
Topic - Playtest Period Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger - 15-Sep to 28-Sep
Classes: Cleric, Druid, Paladin - 29-Sep to 12-Oct
Classes: Bard, Monk, Rogue - 13-Oct to 26-Oct
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard - 27-Oct to 9-Nov
Skills and Feats - 10-Nov to 23-Nov
Would it be possible to get the changes/corrections/updates that are expected for the base classes and skills/feats?
I think it would really help going forward if we can play test the remaining items (PRC's, Equipment, Combat, Magic/Spells) with the "final" classes and skills/feats.
The Mystic Theurge sounds like such a cool idea. Progress spell casting of both arcane and divine? Yes please!
The problem is that it's meant for a pure spell casting build. Which means losing any caster levels is crippling at higher level play. When other pure casters are throwing around 9th level spells, you are still casting 7th level ones... And you won't get 9th level spells 'till you are 20th level.
The MT gains more spells per day than any other Prc. However, at higher levels the number of spells you can cast per round doesn't increase. You can't use Quicken effectively because you don't have higher level spell slots to spare. So having more spells per day doesn't actually help out all that much.
One problem is that granting full divine and arcane spell casting progression is just too darn powerful. The only way to keep it in check is to make you take the leadership feat and gain a Mystic Theurge as a cohort.
There are a couple ways to turn this from a NPC/Cohort Prc class, so here is one I was thinking of.
1) Instead of full casting progression in both Divine and Arcane, make it a full progression in one, but allow you to pickup spells from the other.
- At each level, gain +1 level of existing Divine or Arcane spellcasting class. Also allow you to add 2 spells from any divine or arcane spell list to your known spells. These new spells would have to be of a level you could currently cast.
- Change entrance requirements to 3rd level divine or arcane spells and 5 ranks of knowledge (arcane) or knowledge (religion)
This maintains the "multiple" spell list theme, but makes it a class worth taking.
Thoughts or other ideas on how to un-gimp the Mystic Theurge?
I made a nice long post comparing Barbarian 14 to a Barb4/Sorc1/DD10 but the stupid boards ate it.
In summary, the Barb4/Sorc1/DD10 lost 3 points of BaB, a couple hit points and a few Rage Powers. It came out almost even on the combat side because of the stat boosts. Came out close because of Bonus Bloodline feats. And then came out way ahead because of 4th level spells.
For a pure Caster, losing ANY casting levels is really not worth it. But for any none pure casting build, the DD is a huge win as is.
I think the class looks good and should be left as is.
Have there been any changes to Prestige Enhancement since you posted it in the announcement thread?
I ask because there has been some discussion on that thread about changes to some of the classes and I wanted to know if any of those recommendations have already been implemented.
The problem isn't really that everyone is taking perception- its that you get so *few* skill points at first level that each and every one has to be used in a skill you are going to USE. Because dropping 1 skill point into something is actually *giving up the equivalent of 4 points*.
What do I mean?
I mean that in 3.5 you could take a point in Craft: Underwater Basket Weaving or Profession: Rancher- or whatever- and it really didn't deteriment your character much. The wizard could have perform: lute (1-2 ranks) or the fighter could drop a rank into Cooking, thus adding a little spice to the character without terribly screwing up the fellows skills.
That is a very good point... But what is a possible solution?
Would (Skill Points * 2) + Int mod at 1st level be overpowering?
Rouges would get 16 + Int instead of 8 + Int, but they have (at least) 20 class skills, so they could still not max all of them.
Bard/Ranger would get 12 + Int, but they have 18/15 class skills. Ranger might be able to max all skills, but not Bard.
Wizard/Sorc/Cleric would get 4 + Int, but they all have over 8 class skills, so they would still not be able to max all skills.
And past 1st level, it would be back to the X + Int mod per level.
That's probably ok for PCs, because if a Wizard has been studying from their Rogue companion for 19 levels they could probably learn to sneak just fine, and that Cleric might be of a trickster god. But if gets weird when Ancient Red Wyrms can sneak up on you too easy.
This is true. Then again... What is the penalty to stealth for being Gargantuan?
Gargantuan –12
Which means the Ancient Red Dragon has a Stealth check of +25 instead of +37 if they want to invest some of their 6 + Int skill points/HD in it (and the probably would as they have around 300 total skill points).
Where as in 3.5 it would never do that as the Size penalty would wipe out the CC max ranks.
2. SNP serves a valuable function that I think folks are missing. Not only does it prevent guys from moving right past you, it also can hold the guy that you are engaging, meaning that if the fighter goes first, he can lock down an opponent and prevent him from getting to the "softer" parts of the party.
A few play tests with Shall Not Pass and a 10th level fighter. The setup involved a Fighter trying to prevent 1 BBG from getting to the protected target.
1) BBG is a medium sized melee with 5' reach (Acrobatics: 4)
1a) Fighter going 1st allowed him to close and lock down the BBG, as BBG could not pass DC 25 Acrobatics check. BBG resorted to moving free 5' steps towards the target, but Target simply moved away
1b) BBG going first allowed him to move around Fighter with a double move and now was in melee range of Target. Target moved away with free 5' step, Fighter moved in and was able to lock down BBG again.
2) BBG is a high Dex char with Focus Feat (Acrobatics: 19)
2a) Fighter going 1st allowed him to close with BBG, however DC 25 Acrobatics check was easy to make (85%), so BBG tumbled past Fighter and killed target.
2b) BBG going first tumbled past fighter and killed target
3) BBG is med melee w/ 5' reach w/ maxed CC Acrobatics: 12
-- Same as 2a/b but now only has a 45% chance to Tumble past Fighter
4) BBG has 40' or higher move
4a) same as above
4b) BBG moves around Fighter and kills target
I would say that Shall Not Pass is a situational feat that can be quite effective. A skilled Tumbler negates the feat all together, as do magic transports (DD, Teleport, Flying, etc) or high movement, but that is to be expected.
So... here are some thoughts. We are considering changing PA to a set scale, where you subtract X and add 2X to damage, regardless of your weapon or other factors (following KISS). X might slide up as you gain levels, but it would not be a variable, which causes too many issues. Here is my question... what should X be. My current thought is to start it out at 2 and have it increase by 1 for every 5 of your BAB. Thoughts?
Glabrezu
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 12d8+120 (174 hp)
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (-2 size, +19 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 27
Attack: Pincers +20 melee (2d8+10)
Full Attack: 2 pincers +20 melee (2d8+10) and 2 claws +18 melee (1d6+5) and bite +18 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Multiattack, Persuasive, Power Attack
Challenge Rating: 13
Under 3.5 this creatures Full Attack at -4 PA would be:
Full Attack: 2 pincers +16 melee (2d8+14) and 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+9) and bite +14 melee (1d8+9) = 55 bonus damage
If you changed PA to allow 2X damage across the board, you've now changed it's Full Attack at -4 PA to:
Full Attack: 2 pincers +16 melee (2d8+18) and 2 claws +14 melee (1d6+13) and bite +14 melee (1d8+13) = 75 bonus damage
A nice +20 to damage for an already dangerous opponent considering it's sp abilities, improved grab, DR, SR, etc.
How about a feat chain along these lines? In addition to the basic feat described, you'd of course have Improved Efficient Strike (BAB +11), Greater Efficient Strike (+16), and Epic Efficient Strike (all attacks).
Efficient Strike (Combat)
You take quick advantage of any opening to deliver a number of blows.
Prerequisite: BAB +6
Benefit: You can take your second iterative attack as part of a standard action, or as part of a single attack of opportunity.
Normal: You may make only one attack as a standard action. Each attack of opportunity an opponent provokes allows you only one attack.
I think that is the perfect balance between Pounce and the current state of affairs. Nicely Done!
One nice change in this regards would be to remove the Haste spell's requirement for a Full Attack Action. I mean really, is it that overpowered to allow someone to move and attack twice?
I would also question, not dispute, but question the assertion that fighters are so underpowered in PF. From our playtest experience, the fighters have been on par with the other classes.
It's pretty sad that a class optimized to kill things (Fighter/Barb/etc) is "on par" with classes which are not.
Fighter/Barb/Ranger/Paladin should outshine any other class when it comes to killing the bad guys.
Why does pretty much every effective melee build take Power Attack?
Because it's one of the ONLY feats that scales with level (BAB), thus making it effective through their entire progression.
It also helps them keep up with the Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/Druid at mid levels. Not outshine, keep up.
Well if more people readied an action to disrupt spellcasting (which I almost never see, nor counterspelling unless by an item -ring of greater counterspell or ring of spellbattle) it might not be such a problem.
Readied Actions... oft overlooked.
Very true.
Instead of seeing feats that make defensive casting harder, I'd rather see feats that make readied attacks against spellcasters easier. Or feats that simulate readied attacks.
The reason no one uses readied actions to disrupt spell casting is that people like to do stuff, not to have their entire turn negated by a free 5' step.
I'd like to see the Injury section on spell casting be modified to include any damage dealt before a spell is cast. That way you could pound away at a spell caster, they could free 5' step (or defensive cast) but the damage you had just done could still disrupt their spell.
"Abusive to damage amounts"? That's the only way that melee characters could function. The problem came with things that multiplied this damage (such as Leap Attack).
Which does not change with the existing PF version of Power Attack.
The only thing the PF version does is take away PC choices.
I've play tested the PF Power Attack with a Str optimized Fighter and Barbarian at 6th, 12th and 16th. I ran three combats for each level, 1 against a high AL critter, 1 against a avg AL + high DR critter and 1 against a low AL + high HP critter.
At 6th level, the Fighter is restricted by their Str bonus to +5 PA, while the Barb goes up to +7 PA. Giving up 5 points to attack is somewhat painful (Barb +4 Str from rage makes up for the -7 PA), but doable most of the time.
However, after 12th level the Fighter starts to pull ahead, as the Barbarian has gained Greater Rage (+6 Str) which means the Fighter hits more often, as his Str bonus is still around +7, while the Barbarian is up to +12. The fighter also has Weapon Spec, etc to help with attack scores.
I've found that after 12th level, the only time PA is used is for mooks (low AL), super high AL critters (where a 20 is required to hit anyway) or high DR critters, as taking -9 to -12 to attacks is just not worth it. I doubled all the critters HP to make each combat longer and smooth out the "lucky die rolls" effect.
High AL critter: PA combat took 3-4 rounds longer
Avg AL + DR: PA combat came out the same
Low AL + High HP: PA combat took 1-2 rounds less
I was kinda supprised by the avg AL + DR critters, as I though that PA would cut through the DR and end the combat sooner. Turns out that +24 damage just doesn't make up for all those misses, especially considering the 12th level fighter already has +16 to damage for each hit without any PA.
Play testing the same builds with 3.5, I found that after 12th level both Fighter and Barbarian would usually take between -5 to -7 for PA. Using PA shorted the fight by 2 rounds on average in every single case!
I think the problem is that normal damage bonuses from Str, GWSpec, buffs and magic make the 2nd and 3rd iterative attacks worth having. When you PA for -9 it turns a +24/+17/+12 down to +15/+8/+3 which means you are missing on 2nd and 3rd attacks almost always.
For example against:
AC 28 you have a 75%/50%/25% (PA -5) vs 40%/5%/5% (PA -9)
AC 20 it's better at 95%/70%/45% (PA -5) vs 75%/50%/25% (PA -9)
Almost every group I've played, people would limit themselves to -5 PA, as it just doesn't pay off with much bigger bonuses.
IMO, the PF version of all or nothing makes the feat unusable after level 15 or so.
I definitely think Improved Grapple should have Imp UA Strike removed as a pre-req. Grabbing someone is much easier than getting all pugilist on them.
As for the others, I'd like see the Stat requirement removed. I mean, why does my burly Fighter need an Int of 13 to trip someone? A wolf with a 3 Int can do it!
The problem with Defensive casting is that it's an automatic after level 5 or so. Which means there is no way to prevent a spell casting from going off unless you ready an action to stop it (and doing that is almost impossible, as they just take a 5' step away and you lose your turn).
While this mechanic is good for PC spell casters (it's very frustrating not to be able to do what you are designed to do) it also gives Sp and Su using monsters a boost.
I think the Injury section of Casting Spells should be adjusted so that if you take damage that round (before you start to cast a spell) you must make a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell) to cast it.
This allows melee type attacks to still have a chance at disrupting spell casting without the chancy "readied action to disrupt" vs 5' step away game. However, it still allows high Initiative casters to function normally. If a melee type really wants to disrupt the casting, then they can refocus their init order to just before the caster goes and hope they deal enough damage to disrupt the coming spell.
If a caster really wants to get a spell off, they will avoid melee all together, which is exactly how it should be played.
EDIT: Also, it should be noted somewhere that quickened/swift/immediate casting times can not be disrupted, as they are just to fast.
I have been considering, for a while now, allowing this feat to be used as a standard action, but that does seem very good for low level melee characters.
You could style it after Rapid Shot with -2 to all attacks. It would really become whirlwind attack at that point though.
EDIT: Also remember it currently has a restriction of an adjacent opponent to the original target, which makes it very hard to activate. I think that restriction alone is enough to limit it's usefulness. If it did become a standard action, it could then be activated on a Charge attack, which would extend it's viability for higher level characters.
The 3.5 cleave was "activated" whenever you killed an opponent. Which meant cleave was really only good for clearing mooks.
I applaud the desire to make it more accessible, but the PF version becomes worth much less once you gain iterative attacks (after level 5 or so)
Perhaps we could put it back to the 3.5 version, but have it activate on a critical or the killing blow:
---
Cleave [General]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) or you confirm a critical hit, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature or scored the critical hit. You can use this ability once per round.
---
Greater Cleave would be the same but allow for more than one attack.
Almost no front line types use a polearm because of the adjacent hole. Yes having reach is very nice, but having to either take a 5' step before attacking, armor/shield spikes or just dropping your reach weapon and switch to close quarter fighting is sub-optimal in almost all circumstances.
I think the best answer would be to deal only with rage length. Make the whole system easier, perhaps something like, a rage lasts character level (+ con. mod) turns, activated once per encounter and after a 5 or 6 round rage the character is fatigued, after a 10 or 15 round rage the character is exhausted. Just spit-balling, here.
I know from my personal experience that when the barbarian is out of rages, the party tends to want to rest. Why even have an "out of rages"?
I agree 100%
The rounds/day restriction really effects characters under level 8 or so, as past that level you have enough to Rage for pretty much every encounter in an adventuring day.
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach. If you attack a foe that is outside your reach using this ability, you take a –2 penalty on your attack roll.
Can you use this with a Full Attack or only a single melee attack?
Part of the reason that higher level players stack so many buffs is to gain Immunity to certain effects. If those were simply scaled +'s then a portion of the problem would be self correcting, as monsters/players would still be able to be effective instead of irrelevant.
The other part of the problem is that Attack/Damage for higher CR monsters do not scale with protections such as AC, saves, etc. Because of this, PC's must come up with creative (stacking different bonuses) ways to get their AC, saves, etc up high enough to be effective at higher levels. This is compounded with Save or Die effects (Paralysis, Slay Living, Flesh to Stone, Feeblemind, etc) which means one failed save = you are dead. All those SoD spells/Su/Sp need to be molded after the Hold Person spells with ongoing saves to break the effect.
I don't think you can really fix the high CR attack scaling problem without a massive non-backwards compatible rewrite of all the high CR monsters. Even if you did, it doesn't cover non PF monsters.
If you limit the number of buffs (or change the way that stacking bonuses work) you are making those same high CR monsters even tougher for PC's to defeat.
Completely off topic, but this thread has been derailed so many times already I don't feel bad :D
Samuel Weiss wrote:
The beholder was at 12 hp at the time while the monk had taken no damage.
The beholder was at -2 to hit because of being shaken.
And of course, it was a monk with monk saves and touch AC.
Monks are the ultimate Beholder killers, as their base saves at 12th level are +8 and with stats and magic items usually end up around +14 or so.... Against the Beholders DC 17 eye rays. And if the Monk could fly, that would eliminate the one escape/move advantage the Beholder has.
Beholders are a trap -- they look totally dangerous on paper, but are super easy if you have a party with optimized saves (ie, Paladin, Wizard, Cleric, Druid or Monk). They do make fun BBEG's though as every one I've played with has an almost innate fear of them
Ask anyone to rank the classes from most powerful to least powerful and Wizard will always be either #1 or #2.
Why?
Because of their spell lists.
Those who have looked at the numbers also know it's because of their Save or Die spells that they are really #1 on the list and not #2 or #3.
Hold Person was a perfect example of how a 3.0 SoD spell was toned back to be appropriate for it's level in 3.5 by simply adding a new save against the spell each round.
Baleful Polymorph is an example of a spell that was toned down in PF to more appropriate for it's level (now as Beast Shape III and allows 2 saves)
I think the same needs to be done for all the SoD spells. Flesh to Stone should take 2-3 rounds, 1st round failed save = slowed, 2nd round failed save = paralyzed, 3rd round failed save = stone. Feeblemind should gain a saving throw each round to reverse the effects.
All the spells that are combat ending need to have these same things done to them (Wizard, Cleric, etc) and it will bring those classes back into power levels with other "I kill by attrition" classes.
If you spend half of your overall wealth on one type of defense when many different types exist your capabilities in that field should be unsurpassed as you are a focused specialist.
A very good point and one that bears repeating. If you spend over half your entire wealth on AC, then it should be more than 30-40% effective against the same CR as your level melee brute.
Which means the average Melee attack at CR 20 is 37... Considering that AC tops out around 40-45 or so for a melee type, that "average" melee attack is hitting 60% to 80% of the time.
The problem is that it's pretty much the same numbers game starting at level 7 or so. I've already run through the numbers in my post here
While the average is closing to 65% hit rate, that's still pretty darn bad considering we are comparing spending 1/2 of all your wealth on AC vs a "average" melee attack.
I think making armor cheaper would help out as it would probably drop the average hit rate closer to 40-50% which is where it really should be for a "tank" character.
I have to agree with most of what has been posted, but have to stress that most of it revolves around combat:
- Critters are lethal at higher levels. Just one failed save can often leave a hole in the party which leads to a TPK.
- Published adventures often assume a certain mix of classes or level of player expertise, which will kill a group who is unprepared, inexperienced or just not paying attention.
- Class power levels get way, way out of wack in the teen levels. Thus creating the "I'm a spell caster and you are now all just henchmen" effect which can get quite boring for anyone not a mage/cleric/druid.
- Critters have just too darn many abilities. Unprepared DM's don't use them, which makes all the combats easy = boring. Prepared DM's use them all which means combats take hours of real time to resolve 30 seconds of game time.
With all that said, I've found with a half prepared DM, high level play can be really, really fun.
What can Pathfinder do to help fix some of the problems?
1) Try to balance spell casters vs non-casters. Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Monks and Paladins fall squarely into the "henchmen" category when it comes to high level combat. Yes, you can create specific builds which are one-shot cannons which can kill 90% of the critters in the MM in 2 rounds, but most of the time F/B/R/M/P's try and block the path to the casters, till the casters have disabled or blasted them to death.
2) More "Here is how you run this monster" type of text for higher CR critters. In addition, Published Adventures should have combat play blocks which list how an encounter should play out from the critters side. How they co-operate, what spells/abilities would work well against what class types, etc.
I don't think game designers spend much time on high level play because few people ever reach that point. And those who do are experienced enough that they work with the DM to patch up all the holes.
As has already been stated here, most monsters that need it already have Pounce (charge + Full attack), so why not also give that to Fighter types?
There are enough restrictions to charge (straight line, no difficult terrain, not through opponents) that having Pounce as a feat is not unbalanced.
Expanding Readied Actions to allow Full round actions like a Charge attack would also greatly help out battlefield control. Or perhaps allow a Charge as a special exception of the single Standard or Move restrictions for Readied Actions.
I also really like the feat that allows you to give up an iterative attack in exchange for additional movement. It also fits well with the intent of other feats that have been added to PFRPG.
All that said, it also enforces the failings of Medium and Heavy armor restrictions to movement.
Summary: At levels above 7th, investing money into AC is a TRAP!
However, at lower levels, Heavy armor (and Medium for that matter) is a life saver. It's required to balance out the low number of HP front line fighters have compared to the damage critters can do.
At 1st level, wearing Full Plate, Heavy Shield and +1 Dex mod your AC will be 21
Here is the average Melee attack from levels 1-3 for critters in SRD and MM1-4:
At 10th level and 28 AC, your average monster will hit you 65% of the time.
So let's say by 15th level you are rolling in money so you've upgraded to +2 ring prot, +3 amulet NA and +5 armor and shield. Your heavy AC is now 35 -- you should be safe and sound, eh?
Damage Reduction at 7th level of 1/-, 13th of 2/-, 16th of 3/- and 19th of 4/- is vastly underpowered.
Trap Sense is also underpowered, as it's a very situational bonus.
I'd like to see Trap Sense done away with and replaced by Damage Reduction starting at 3rd level and following the same progression: 1/- at 3rd and increasing every 3 levels.
Everyone at my table is amazed at how much better the ranger can track, and our ranger hasn't even tracked yet. I love the new track rules. Don't mess with them please. They are wonderful as written.
Firm ground DC is 15 (most normal outdoor surfaces) and Hard Ground is DC 20
A level 1 Ranger probably has +6 to Survival, which means he has a 55% chance to track a critter in the forest and a 30% chance indoors or over hard ground. Anyone with Survival as a class skill can have the same.
A level 6 Ranger has a +14 vs other classes at +11. So ranger tracks outdoors at 95% and indoors at 70%, vs other classes who track outdoors at 80% and indoors at 55%
At level 10+ they even out for the base check, as Ranger is at +20 and other classes are at +15, so both have 95% in Forest, with Ranger at 95% indoors vs 75% for other classes.
Of course there are situational modifiers such as time since tracks were made, size of creature, raining, etc which can make these checks much harder.
All that said, I think I've actually used track about 3 times in the 20+ years I've been playing DnD. I love it, think it's cool, but it just doesn't come up that often... especially at higher levels where a Ranger's Track bonus would really kick in. By that point it's all Find the Path, Locate Object and such spells.
Ya know the fighter could stay as is. They just need to add some rules that allow him more movement and maneuverability.
I agree and in addition they really need more battlefield control type feats.
The reason that Spiked Chain + Trip based builds are so desirable is that they make it hard to ignore the fighter. With a 10' reach (15' in most optimized builds) and the ability to knock down (ie STOP) critters who try to get around them to the crunchy casters, they suddenly became a force to be reckoned with instead of bypassed/ignored.
More feats like Hold the Line are needed. In addition, the Improved XYZ feats (Trip, Bull Rush, etc) need to be changed so that they provide scaling bonuses along the lines of 4 + x/level
1. Being unable to disrupt spellcasting (caster just moves away and casts);
2. Being unable to guard his friends (people just walk around him); and
3. Being unable to act in response to what's going on around him.
If he could trade attacks for movement, and hold attacks and movement for use as immediate actions later on in the round, those would address his core deficiencies better than giving him extra attacks as part of the full attack action he hardly ever gets to use.
100% agreement here. Fighter does not need more ways to deal more damage, he needs more options for battlefield control.
First off the Bard needs more daily uses of Bardic Performance at lower levels... Perhaps level + Cha mod per day?
Countersong: 1 rank
-- It's effectiveness is very situational, but when it's used it almost always works. That said, I have never used it, half because I simply forget it's there and half because I'm usually already playing another song (inspire courage). In addition, requiring a specific type of Perform skill effectively cuts this ability off of a Bard who has not chosen one of those skills.
* Remove performance restrictions and combine with Distraction song
Distraction: 1 rank
-- Same as above, but even worse... Act, Comedy, Dance or Oratory? Really?
Fascinate: 1 rank
-- Sounds like a cool song, but once again very situational. Plus you can already cast this spell (Charm Person). The restriction of 1 target + 1/per 3 levels makes this song almost worthless considering all the other restrictions about nearby combat, threatening, spell casting, etc.
* Bump the # of targets to 1 + Cha Mod per level.
Inspire Courage: 1 rank
-- The signature song of the bard... So good that most Bards don't do anything else while in combat. Those that do kick it off on round 1 and hope the +5 rounds is enough, while they switch to another song or cast a spell.
* No suggestions to change, seems good the way it is.
Inspire Courage: 3 ranks (and 3rd level)
-- Umm, this is just Aid another without having to roll higher than a 10. Sure, it's a nice free boost, but mostly a waste of a Bardic Music use.
* It should at least scale with level/perform skill
Suggestion: 6 ranks (and 6th level)
-- Free Suggestion spell to anyone who is under the Bards Fascinate song? Only limit is how long I can sing and how many rounds I can burn? Sign me up! Oh wait, it's only against those who have already failed the saving throw against Fascinate and by this level, the Wizard already has Fireball to take care of the mooks who are going to fail TWO saving throws...
* Make it automagic, with a save at the end of each round
Dirge of Doom: 8 ranks (and 8th level)
-- Shaken and -2 to saves, attacks, etc with no save? At last, something for the Bard to do besides Inspire Courage. At 8th level, this is perfect, but by 15th, it's sorta weak and by 20th it's lame. Mostly because of the 30' range restriction, but also because it doesn't scale.
* I'd suggest making it scale with level and increase the range by 10' every 5 levels.
Discordant Performance: 8 ranks (and 8th level)
-- Confused sounds good, but then you look at the range and line of sight requirement. And they get another will save every round!
* Remove the line of sight, extend range out to 60'
Inspire Greatness: 9 ranks (and 9th level)
-- The 2nd always used song while in combat.
* Looks good as is
Song of Freedom: 12 ranks (and 12th level)
-- Break Enchantment spell... which the Bard has had access to since 10th level, but this one takes 1 minute to "cast" and requires a use of Bardic music.
* Shorten the time to 1 full round to at least make it useful in combat.
Soothing Performance: 12 ranks (and 12th level)
-- Finally access to a spell before you are allowed to cast it... Oh, but the Cleric has been doing this since level 1 and his "ability" is now up to 5d6 of healing?
** Drop this to 1 rank (level 1) and make it scale just the same as the Cleric Channel Energy ability. Add the removes extra stuff (fatigued, sickened, etc) at higher ranks. **
Frightening Tune: 14 ranks (and 14th level)
-- Yay, make all the mooks run away in fear! Your average CR 14 critter will fail this will save about 50% of the time... If they aren't already immune to fear.
* Seems pretty balanced, but might drop this down to 10th level, where it would be more effective.
Paralyzing Show: 14 ranks (and 14th level)
-- Like mass hold monster, except for the range limit and the WTF? performance requirements.
* Remove performance requirements and increase the range and also limit the number of targets to Bard level/2 or something
Inspire Heroics: 15 ranks (and 15th level)
-- +4 to saves and +4 to AC... Um, how does more AC and better saves make someone more Heroic? By this level, you either already have an insane AC or you don't care about your AC at all. And another target every 3 levels past 15th? Why not just say 15th and 18th level? Targets of this spell are usually melee/front line types, who are going to be farther than 30' away after you finish your FULL ROUND of singing to get this started.
* Remove the 30' range, add another target every 2 levels beyond 15th and add +4 to attack and damage.
Mass Suggestion: 18 ranks (18th level)
-- Must have already failed one will save to even be effected and now you want to add another one for it to work? At 18th level? Really? If they fail the Fascinate save, then an 18th level Bard should be able to command them as he wishes. There are already a ton of restrictions on the Fascinate song (no threatening, no spell casting, etc, etc)
* Remove the 2nd will save, make it automatic.
Deadly Performance: 20 ranks (and 20th level)
-- They die if they have a low will save, stunned for 1d4 rounds if they do save. Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held,
can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). How did the Bard suddenly get a power that ends all BBEG fights as soon has he gets within 30'?
* Not sure how to fix this... I've never used it so not sure how it's balanced against other classes at 20th level.
No one has ever said the Bard is over powered and I think adding additional restrictions to their their iconic class ability only takes away from that.
The number one thing I'd like to see is to move the Soothing Performance to 1st level and make it scale much like the Clerics Channel Energy ability for healing. Perhaps restrict it to 1 + # of additional targets per level.
First off the Bard needs more daily uses of Bardic Performance at lower levels... Perhaps level + Cha mod per day?
Countersong: 1 rank
-- It's effectiveness is very situational, but when it's used it almost always works. That said, I have never used it, half because I simply forget it's there and half because I'm usually already playing another song (inspire courage). In addition, requiring a specific type of Perform skill effectively cuts this ability off of a Bard who has not chosen one of those skills.
* Remove performance restrictions and combine with Distraction song
Distraction: 1 rank
-- Same as above, but even worse... Act, Comedy, Dance or Oratory? Really?
Fascinate: 1 rank
-- Sounds like a cool song, but once again very situational. When you get a chance to use it, you feel like a hero... Until you look at the DC. Everything else is based on your awesome perform skill, but not this one: 10 + 1/2 bard's level + bards Cha mod. Plus you can already cast this spell (Charm Person).
* Change DC to use the Perform check just like all the other songs
Inspire Courage: 1 rank
-- The signature song of the bard... So good that most Bards don't do anything else while in combat. Those that do kick it off on round 1 and hope the +5 rounds is enough, while they switch to another song or cast a spell.
* No suggestions to change, seems good the way it is.
Inspire Courage: 3 ranks (and 3rd level)
-- Umm, this is just Aid another without having to roll higher than a 10. Sure, it's a nice free boost, but mostly a waste of a Bardic Music use.
* It should at least scale with level/perform skill
Suggestion: 6 ranks (and 6th level)
-- Free Suggestion spell to anyone who is under the Bards Fascinate song? Only limit is how long I can sing and how many rounds I can burn? Sign me up! Oh wait, it's only against those who have already failed the saving throw against Fascinate and by this level, the Wizard already has Fireball to take care of the mooks who are going to fail TWO saving throws...
* Same as Fascinate, change the DC to use Perform check. At least the Bard will have a chance of it working at higher levels then.
Dirge of Doom: 8 ranks (and 8th level)
-- Shaken and -2 to saves, attacks, etc with no save? At last, something for the Bard to do besides Inspire Courage. At 8th level, this is perfect, but by 15th, it's sorta weak and by 20th it's lame. Mostly because of the 30' range restriction, but also because it doesn't scale.
* I'd suggest making it scale with level and increase the range by 10' every 5 levels.
Discordant Performance: 8 ranks (and 8th level)
-- Confused sounds good, but then you look at the range and line of sight requirement. And they get another will save every round!
* Remove the line of sight, extend range out to 60'
Inspire Greatness: 9 ranks (and 9th level)
-- The 2nd always used song while in combat.
* Looks good as is
Song of Freedom: 12 ranks (and 12th level)
-- Break Enchantment spell... which the Bard has had access to since 10th level, but this one takes 1 minute to "cast" and requires a use of Bardic music.
* Shorten the time to 1 full round to at least make it useful in combat.
Soothing Performance: 12 ranks (and 12th level)
-- Finally access to a spell before you are allowed to cast it... Oh, but the Cleric has been doing this since level 1 and his "ability" is now up to 5d6 of healing?
** Drop this to 1 rank (level 1) and make it scale just the same as the Cleric Channel Energy ability. Add the removes extra stuff (fatigued, sickened, etc) at higher ranks. **
Frightening Tune: 14 ranks (and 14th level)
-- Yay, make all the mooks run away in fear! Your average CR 14 critter will fail this will save about 50% of the time... If they aren't already immune to fear.
* Seems pretty balanced, but might drop this down to 10th level, where it would be more effective.
Paralyzing Show: 14 ranks (and 14th level)
-- Like mass hold monster, except for the range limit and the WTF? performance requirements.
* Remove performance requirements and increase the range and also limit the number of targets to Bard level/2 or something
Inspire Heroics: 15 ranks (and 15th level)
-- +4 to saves and +4 to AC... Um, how does more AC and better saves make someone more Heroic? By this level, you either already have an insane AC or you don't care about your AC at all. And another target every 3 levels past 15th? Why not just say 15th and 18th level? Targets of this spell are usually melee/front line types, who are going to be farther than 30' away after you finish your FULL ROUND of singing to get this started.
* Remove the 30' range, add another target every 2 levels beyond 15th and add +4 to attack and damage.
Mass Suggestion: 18 ranks (18th level)
-- Must have already failed one will save to even be effected and now you want to add another one for it to work? At 18th level? Really? If they fail the Fascinate save, then an 18th level Bard should be able to command them as he wishes. There are already a ton of restrictions on the Fascinate song (no threatening, no spell casting, etc, etc)
* Remove the 2nd will save, make it automatic.
Deadly Performance: 20 ranks (and 20th level)
-- They die if they have a low will save, stunned for 1d4 rounds if they do save. Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held,
can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). How did the Bard suddenly get a power that ends all BBEG fights as soon has he gets within 30'?
* Not sure how to fix this... I've never used it so not sure how it's balanced against other classes at 20th level.
No one has ever said the Bard is over powered and I think adding additional restrictions to their their iconic class ability only takes away from that.
The number one thing I'd like to see is to move the Soothing Performance to 1st level and make it scale much like the Clerics [i]Channel Energy[/b] ability for healing. Perhaps restrict it to 1 + # of additional targets per level.
So far this has mostly been a discussion about in combat healing (and healing at range) which should be the Cleric's forte.
That said, Channel Energy is most efficient when used out of combat (especially as the end of a combat has the highest chance of multiple party members needing healing) and it thus gives a party with a Cleric "free" healing that is very effective.
I say free because there is no spell slot or gold cost to this healing vs a party that must use spell slots (Druid, Ranger, etc) or cost gold (Wands of CLW, etc) to heal up.
For example a 5th level Cleric with a 14 Cha will be able to channel 3d6 x 5 times per day. As a burst, it will heal all your party members (usually 3-4 depending on party size), so you are getting 135-180 points of free healing per day. That is the equivalent of 1/2 of a wand of CLW.
I've found that at levels 1-5 a wand of CLW will last a long time, but you start to burn through them fast at levels 6-10 and after 10th level you can burn through one after a single big fight. While 750gp at 10th level isn't much compared to total loot, it starts to add up, plus having to procure and carry all those wands is kinda ... irritating.
I'd like to have some other classes gain an out of combat healing ability which could supplement the CLW/spells of a group that does not have a Cleric in the party.
Looks like the Paladin will get that starting at 4th level.
I'd also like to see other classes gain some sort of mass out of combat heal. Bard could have a healing song, Monk could have some Ki or meditation ability to heal party damage similar to Channel Energy. The more classes that have these types of abilities the better, as healing out of combat is boring and does nothing but slow down the fun parts of adventuring. Make them take 1 minute or 5 minutes, etc so they can only be used out of combat.
