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I was just wondering if for the final release Pathfinder could actually include CLOTH as armor capable of being enchanted, or at least put a rule some where that it could be. As it stands now as an example, a wizard has to wear bracers to get an ac bonus or buy robes that do so. Also they have to buy/find/make robes that have other bonuses on them though they don't really get the same options as someone wearing armor.
Why is it you can have a +1 Ghostouch Chainshirt but you can't have +1 Ghosttouch Shirt (chains sold seperately).
I know some people might say "Well you can, just house rule it," but I don't see an issue if instead of robes, if the wizard/sorcerer/monk/whatever else wants to be able to have enchanted options like those wearing armor. They wear armor for the heavier AC after all and I can't see why a wizard can enchant a slender piece of leather armor and not some cloth pants and shirt to the same effect.
Thoughts? Am I missing something?
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I was just wondering if for the final release Pathfinder could actually include CLOTH as armor capable of being enchanted, or at least put a rule some where that it could be. As it stands now as an example, a wizard has to wear bracers to get an ac bonus or buy robes that do so. Also they have to buy/find/make robes that have other bonuses on them though they don't really get the same options as someone wearing armor.
Why is it you can have a +1 Ghostouch Chainshirt but you can't have +1 Ghosttouch Shirt (chains sold seperately).
I know some people might say "Well you can, just house rule it," but I don't see an issue if instead of robes, if the wizard/sorcerer/monk/whatever else wants to be able to have enchanted options like those wearing armor. They wear armor for the heavier AC after all and I can't see why a wizard can enchant a slender piece of leather armor and not some cloth pants and shirt to the same effect.
Thoughts? Am I missing something?
Cloth armor is padded armor.
yep padded is cloth armor
I know that I have seen somwhere, in the "official" rules (possibly under magic vestment) that cloth is effectively Armor Bonus +0, just like skin is Natural Armor Bonus +0, and that those are the effective foundations that enhancement bonuses go from, such as barkskin and such.
I will check some sources and edit/post if I can verify.
Edit: Verified!
Go here for validation for the foundation of your idea.
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I know that I have seen somwhere, in the "official" rules (possibly under magic vestment) that cloth is effectively Armor Bonus +0, just like skin is Natural Armor Bonus +0, and that those are the effective foundations that enhancement bonuses go from, such as barkskin and such.
I will check some sources and edit/post if I can verify.
Edit: Verified!
Go here for validation for the foundation of your idea.
Thanks a lot! This does indeed help out a great deal :D
The Eberron setting introduced Glamerweave and Darkweave as clothing properties (+1 Diplomacy and Hide respectively)...
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The problem I have is it excludes players who choose like a Monk from getting a very nice armor property since they can't wear armor.
Example, Soulfire from book of exalted. Immunity from negative energy and death spells. Its a pretty awesome property to get, but monks are SOL.
Wizards too, and sorcerers. Would you then put the propety on bracers of armor instead? Or do they just not get the goods.
The problem I have is it excludes players who choose like a Monk from getting a very nice armor property since they can't wear armor.
Example, Soulfire from book of exalted. Immunity from negative energy and death spells. Its a pretty awesome property to get, but monks are SOL.
Wizards too, and sorcerers. Would you then put the propety on bracers of armor instead? Or do they just not get the goods.
FYI, there were rules for enchanting armor properties into bracers in the Arms and Equipment Guide. 3.0, not 3.5, but worked well enough. Got expensive at the end, though: bracers +8 with heavy fortification (or other powers with a +5 adjustment) ran you 169K.
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FYI, there were rules for enchanting armor properties into bracers in the Arms and Equipment Guide. 3.0, not 3.5, but worked well enough. Got expensive at the end, though: bracers +8 with heavy fortification (or other powers with a +5 adjustment) ran you 169K.The problem I have is it excludes players who choose like a Monk from getting a very nice armor property since they can't wear armor.
Example, Soulfire from book of exalted. Immunity from negative energy and death spells. Its a pretty awesome property to get, but monks are SOL.
Wizards too, and sorcerers. Would you then put the propety on bracers of armor instead? Or do they just not get the goods.
Yeah, wizard and monk "armor" is bracers, but there are rules for enchanting items that have "unusual spot limitation", if you want to make a robe of armor instead of bracers, or a belt of natural armor this costs 1.5 times more gold. So according to the rules as they are written a "cloth shirt +2" would be 6300 (or you can get bracers for 4000). The robe of the archmagi is the only robe that grants AC, but costs 75000gp. You could easily make a robe of armor for 37500gp (or buy bracers for 25000gp). The only places where cloth is considered armor is in MMOs and 4E.
I am for the idea of cloth being enchantable. Just from a logic standpoint it makes sense. If the added AC is purely from magic it is no different than a ring that protects or bracers. It would add alot of depth to the arsenal of monks and casters, wouldnt be game breaking, and would allow some of the classes that travel light like rouge and barbarian another set of options at higher levels to overcome armor check pentalty. If this doesnt catch on as a good idea, I would say its definitley worth bringing to your group as a potential house rule. My only concern would be how certain combos might interact with the monk, but a little play testing to ban certain specific enchantments or prohibition of synergies would probably be all the tweak you need to get it up and running in a balanced fashion.
Cloth cannot be enchanted because cloth is mindless -- "enchantment" is a school of magic, all of the spells of which are mind-affecting.
That said, one sees no logical reason that normal clothing could not be magically enhanced, or imbued with magical properties.
Don't stand
Don't stand
Don't stand so cloth to me
/hides
You're wrong. Cloth cannot be "enchanted" becouse it's an object, not a creature. It can't even be targeted. :P
Unless of course the cloth is a "ragamoffyn" monster!
The Beta rules do allow for enhancing Bracers of Armor with special properties, just like regular armor. (p.369-370) That should allow what you're looking for.
Huh...I didn't notice that.
The Beta rules do allow for enhancing Bracers of Armor with special properties, just like regular armor. (p.369-370) That should allow what you're looking for.
A Robe of Armor following the same rules would sure be a nice option to have too! House-rule or official.
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The Beta rules do allow for enhancing Bracers of Armor with special properties, just like regular armor. (p.369-370) That should allow what you're looking for.A Robe of Armor following the same rules would sure be a nice option to have too! House-rule or official.
You can it just falls under the uncustomary space limitation so it costs 1.5 times more.
Yeah! I allow it house rule, make it core!
You can it just falls under the uncustomary space limitation so it costs 1.5 times more.The Beta rules do allow for enhancing Bracers of Armor with special properties, just like regular armor. (p.369-370) That should allow what you're looking for.A Robe of Armor following the same rules would sure be a nice option to have too! House-rule or official.
If I remember correcly, a robe occupies the same space as an armor so I wouldn't call it an uncustomary space. It may not be RAW but I feel it makes sense at the same price as bracers.
I'd be sure to enforce that bracers (armor bonus to AC) + robe (enhancement bonus to armor) don't stack, in that case.
I'd be sure to enforce that bracers (armor bonus to AC) + robe (enhancement bonus to armor) don't stack, in that case.
They wouldn't anyway. Bracers provide an armor bonus. Regular armor getting enhanced gets an enhancement bonus added to the armor bonus of the armor itself, and then the two together are considered an armor bonus. The only thing cloth armor would do is this:
+2 (enhancement bonus) + 0 (armor bonus) = +2 armor bonus
They wouldn't anyway. Bracers provide an armor bonus. Regular armor getting enhanced gets an enhancement bonus added to the armor bonus of the armor itself, and then the two together are considered an armor bonus. The only thing cloth armor would do is this: +2 (enhancement bonus) + 0 (armor bonus) = +2 armor bonus
You and I understand that, but I've seen any number of "optimizers" claim that bracers of armor +8 stack with a cloth shirt +5, "because enhancement bonuses stack with armor bonuses!" No amount of argument to the contrary will convince them that:
Shirt: {+0 armor bonus, +5 enhancement to armor bonus} = +5 total.
Bracers: {+8 armor bonus, +0 enhancement bonus to armor bonus} = +8 total.
The bracers win; the guy wearing all that stuff gets a +8 armor bonus to AC, and the enhancement on the shirt does nothing unless the bracers get removed or dispelled or disjoined.
I'll just throw in a "me too" here, but I agree that enhancing regular clothes, or at the very least robes would be a great addition/clarification. Armor bonus isn't that big of a deal, but the armor special properties would be nice to allow.
Kind of odd as well that there can be special magical robes and clothes, but you can't just have fire resistance (or at least it isn't clear that you can with the rules as written). So you can make a Vest of Escape, a Robe of the Archmagi(/Useful Items/etc.), but you can't just add Silent Moves armor ability. Yet, if those same clothes are padded up a bit, you suddenly can since the stuff you are wearing isn't "clothes", it's now "armor".
Plus I think it can add a lot of flavor to the game with little to no balance issues.
Doesn't that EN Publishing Chainmail Bikini supplement have enchanted undies?
Yep - and it's a fairly balanced supplement, too (on top of being funny). :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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Doesn't that EN Publishing Chainmail Bikini supplement have enchanted undies?Yep - and it's a fairly balanced supplement, too (on top of being funny). :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Oh yeah! I've used its material (and aspects from that naughty book Mrs Kestrel published) in a serious game with great results.
Oh yeah! I've used its material (and aspects from that naughty book Mrs Kestrel published) in a serious game with great results.Doesn't that EN Publishing Chainmail Bikini supplement have enchanted undies?Yep - and it's a fairly balanced supplement, too (on top of being funny). :)
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
I'm very happy someone (else!) brought it up, I had actualy pre-edited the bikini part out of my original Robe of armor sugestion post!
And I do think it should be specified as providing an "armor bonus
of +1 to +8, just as though he were wearing armor" to avoid confusion/arguments/etc.
You and I understand that, but I've seen any number of "optimizers" claim that bracers of armor +8 stack with a cloth shirt +5, "because enhancement bonuses stack with armor bonuses!" No amount of argument to the contrary will convince them that:
Shirt: {+0 armor bonus, +5 enhancement to armor bonus} = +5 total.
Bracers: {+8 armor bonus, +0 enhancement bonus to armor bonus} = +8 total.
The bracers win; the guy wearing all that stuff gets a +8 armor bonus to AC, and the enhancement on the shirt does nothing unless the bracers get removed or dispelled or disjoined.
Note that there are still cases where you can save money using bracers + armor, though. For instance, a +5 chain shirt and "light fortification bracers of armor +1" would cost ~29,000 gp and a "light fortification chain shirt +5" would cost ~36,000 gp.
Note that there are still cases where you can save money using bracers + armor, though. For instance, a +5 chain shirt and "light fortification bracers of armor +1" would cost ~29,000 gp and a "light fortification chain shirt +5" would cost ~36,000 gp.You and I understand that, but I've seen any number of "optimizers" claim that bracers of armor +8 stack with a cloth shirt +5, "because enhancement bonuses stack with armor bonuses!" No amount of argument to the contrary will convince them that:
Shirt: {+0 armor bonus, +5 enhancement to armor bonus} = +5 total.
Bracers: {+8 armor bonus, +0 enhancement bonus to armor bonus} = +8 total.
The bracers win; the guy wearing all that stuff gets a +8 armor bonus to AC, and the enhancement on the shirt does nothing unless the bracers get removed or dispelled or disjoined.
This falls back to the problem of the enhanceable armored kilt issue. Once we get a definitive ruling on what stacks and what doesn't, we can explore this route.
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I guess I'm more trying to say that normal clothes.
Monks can't wear any armor but they're NOT naked. Why can't their clothes be enchanted?
Because that is armor, just because its soft and flexible it still counts as armour. Not by the rules, but by the definition of armor.
armor[ahr-mer]
–noun 1. any covering worn as a defense against weapons.
I guess I'm more trying to say that normal clothes.
Monks can't wear any armor but they're NOT naked. Why can't their clothes be enchanted?
Because that is armor, just because its soft and flexible it still counts as armour. Not by the rules, but by the definition of armor.
armor[ahr-mer]
–noun 1. any covering worn as a defense against weapons.
Normal clothing is not worn as a defense against weapons, the enchantement is the defense. Same as bracers.
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[b]Normal clothing[b] is not worn as a defense against weapons, the enchantement is the defense. Same as bracers.I guess I'm more trying to say that normal clothes.
Monks can't wear any armor but they're NOT naked. Why can't their clothes be enchanted?
Because that is armor, just because its soft and flexible it still counts as armour. Not by the rules, but by the definition of armor.
armor[ahr-mer]
–noun 1. any covering worn as a defense against weapons.
right NORMAL clothing isn't worn as a defense against weapons, but the enhancement turns cloth into a defense. Me personally I see a monk wearing bracers of armor as violating the spirit of the rules as well. I understand by the rules it isn't, but armor is something you wear as a defense against weapons. and the monk is supposed to get his AC bonus when un-armored, not when not using mundane gear to defend against weapons but magic is okay. besides, it's allready been pointed out that you can enchant your clothing using the rules. So I was just pointing out that it's a silly argument to say that a monk can't wear armor, but they can be in armor. I know that this is GAME TERMS armor not the idea of armor. but since he already can do it in the game rules I'm just going to point out the silly contradiction of the argument.
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Yeah, wizard and monk "armor" is bracers, but there are rules for enchanting items that have "unusual spot limitation", if you want to make a robe of armor instead of bracers, or a belt of natural armor this costs 1.5 times more gold. So according to the rules as they are written a "cloth shirt +2" would be 6300 (or you can get bracers for 4000). The robe of the archmagi is the only robe that grants AC, but costs 75000gp. You could easily make a robe of armor for 37500gp (or buy bracers for 25000gp). The only places where cloth is considered armor is in MMOs and 4E.FYI, there were rules for enchanting armor properties into bracers in the Arms and Equipment Guide. 3.0, not 3.5, but worked well enough. Got expensive at the end, though: bracers +8 with heavy fortification (or other powers with a +5 adjustment) ran you 169K.The problem I have is it excludes players who choose like a Monk from getting a very nice armor property since they can't wear armor.
Example, Soulfire from book of exalted. Immunity from negative energy and death spells. Its a pretty awesome property to get, but monks are SOL.
Wizards too, and sorcerers. Would you then put the propety on bracers of armor instead? Or do they just not get the goods.
right here