RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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C'mon, I don't think (though I may be wrong...) that paizo headquarters are located in Canada, so why be Canadian in your rules? I mean, "Don't be a jerk?" Is this seriously what you want to be known for? Do you seriously want to be known as the forum whose rules include "Don't be a jerk?" As far as I know, Paizo headquarters is in the USA, so be an american company, americans are jerks; and nerds, as we all are, should be mature enough to take some meanie-head vocally disagreeing with them. Hell, as nerds, I'm sure we all faced enough crap in grade school that we can take a bit of criticism and "jerkitude".
Canadians can be jerked. How dare you imply that we can't! I demand an apology. ;-)
Prak, the question isn't whether we can "take crap from meanie-heads." The question is whether we have to. I objected to moderation earlier because most of the moderated gamer boards I'd visited had more ridiculous unnecessary insults and high drama than Paizo's unmoderated one. That changed.
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Lich-Loved, I am in awe of your pariah status among the den-izens. I mean, sure, I've gotten a few angry people to swear blood vengeance against me and generally curse my name, but you've got an entire fan club dedicated to singing your praises. Well played.
I just don't get it. I post, they post quoting me, and then some strange chemical reaction occurs and they spontaneously combust (Just look at Prak's post above this one). It is the oddest thing and really something I wish I could control....for the good of all, naturally.
I am starting to think I am some sort of metaphysical catalyst, providing the needed impetus for bizarre exothermic emotional (over)reactions.
I don't do it on purpose. Really. I am not that clever ;>
Senior Software Developer
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Prak_Anima, I'm willing to cut a bit more slack on the "don't be a jerk" thing here in the Website Feedback forum, mainly because I think moderation policy is a touchy topic for people. And a lot of people have had bad experiences elsewhere and think that's how we're going to be here.
But your posts aren't really making any sense, unless I put on my "ohhh, he's trying to see how much of a jerk it takes to get suspended" glasses. But they're kinda smudgy so it's hard for me to tell right now.
Lich-Loved, I am in awe of your pariah status among the den-izens. I mean, sure, I've gotten a few angry people to swear blood vengeance against me and generally curse my name, but you've got an entire fan club dedicated to singing your praises. Well played.I just don't get it. I post, they post quoting me, and then some strange chemical reaction occurs and they spontaneously combust (Just look at Prak's post above this one). It is the oddest thing and really something I wish I could control....for the good of all, naturally.
I am starting to think I am some sort of metaphysical catalyst, providing the needed impetus for bizarre exothermic emotional (over)reactions.
I don't do it on purpose. Really. I am not that clever ;>
really it's the fact that you have no clue about what you're talking about in most debates against denizens, or at least what we're talking about, and refuse to even try and figure it out. and you were after frank's nuts at every turn, and I happen to like frank. even the people at the den that don't feel any particular way about him will probably defend him out a sense of society.
Prak_Anima, I'm willing to cut a bit more slack on the "don't be a jerk" thing here in the Website Feedback forum, mainly because I think moderation policy is a touchy topic for people. And a lot of people have had bad experiences elsewhere and think that's how we're going to be here.
But your posts aren't really making any sense, unless I put on my "ohhh, he's trying to see how much of a jerk it takes to get suspended" glasses. But they're kinda smudgy so it's hard for me to tell right now.
what's not making sense? I don't claim to always be comprehensible, so I can try and sort out what's confusing you and try to make my self make sense.
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Senior Software Developer
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what's not making sense?
Ohh, I dunno. Random personal insults against "moderators"? How is that helping you make whatever case you're trying to make?
The only way those insults make sense is if you're trying to provoke us into suspending you so you get to a) make your point about thuggish moderation, and b) get bragging rights. I don't think I want to play that game at the moment.
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Really it's the fact that you have no clue about what you're talking about in most debates against denizens, or at least what we're talking about, and refuse to even try and figure it out. and you were after frank's nuts at every turn, and I happen to like frank. even the people at the den that don't feel any particular way about him will probably defend him out a sense of society.
I also like Frank. He is a smart guy. I just disagree with him on various points 'tis all. And I actually read the Den daily and have since before the PFRPG, hence I knew what this fine board was in for when the Invasion occurred. Sadly you all have managed to commit suicide of one form or another because you didn't understand the landscape once you arrived. It is a shame, actually, but I can't say that it is unexpected.
Every board has it's rules and its Kings. The Den has theirs, Paizo has theirs (and in no manner do I put myself anywhere near one of the leaders here, just to be clear). I am just a humble poster, nothing more, though I think we can both agree I can be effective. I mean, when getting my point across, of course.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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really it's the fact that you have no clue about what you're talking about in most debates against denizens, or at least what we're talking about, and refuse to even try and figure it out. and you were after frank's nuts at every turn, and I happen to like frank. even the people at the den that don't feel any particular way about him will probably defend him out a sense of society.
I missed where that happened in this thread - can you point it out? Or should we just generally scorn and attack Lich-Loved because he disagreed with Frank at some point in the past and it got heated on both sides? Is he ever permitted to post anything here on Paizo, or does the wrongness of his actions forever taint him and require that we challenge everything he might say?
what's not making sense?Ohh, I dunno. Random personal insults against "moderators"? How is that helping you make whatever case you're trying to make?
The only way those insults make sense is if you're trying to provoke us into suspending you so you get to a) make your point about thuggish moderation, and b) get bragging rights. I don't think I want to play that game at the moment.
Oh, well what about put into the context of "I have a low opinion of most moderators, especially when I know people who have been banned because the mod had a personal vendetta?"
ok, scratch that... Roy wasn't banned by a mod, iirc, he was banned by a developer... but I don't know for certain...
but seriously, it's not me trying to get banned to become a martyr or for bragging rights, I just have a low opinion of mods, and I've become accustomed to a forum where I don't need to censor myself.
Lich*- alright, this is true, every board is a different landscape, and the den just happens to be somewhere between Acheron and Ysgard, while Paizo is, well, bytopia.
and yes, Lich, you are a Paizoan king, at least as much as Frank is a "king" at the den.
I missed where that happened in this thread - can you point it out? Or should we just generally scorn and attack Lich-Loved because he disagreed with Frank at some point in the past and it got heated on both sides? Is he ever permitted to post anything here on Paizo, or does the wrongness of his actions forever taint him?
See, there are these funny things known as reputations and memories, so it really doesn't matter that it didn't happen on this thread, it matters that it happened at all, and that I'm a denizen first, and a Paizoan a hell of a lot further down the list, just above "queen of england".
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I missed where that happened in this thread - can you point it out? Or should we just generally scorn and attack Lich-Loved because he disagreed with Frank at some point in the past and it got heated on both sides? Is he ever permitted to post anything here on Paizo, or does the wrongness of his actions forever taint him and require that we challenge everything he might say?
really it's the fact that you have no clue about what you're talking about in most debates against denizens, or at least what we're talking about, and refuse to even try and figure it out. and you were after frank's nuts at every turn, and I happen to like frank. even the people at the den that don't feel any particular way about him will probably defend him out a sense of society.
Yes. The same way you must be challenged at all turns. Your illusionary reign of lawful terror is over! ;)
Prak: ...so I don't get it, why rail against moderation on a board you have, by your own admission above, no investment in?
What the hell is the Den and/or den-izens? I guess I'm just not savvy enough to know.
Contextually, it sounds like gulag for trolls.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I missed where that happened in this thread - can you point it out? Or should we just generally scorn and attack Lich-Loved because he disagreed with Frank at some point in the past and it got heated on both sides? Is he ever permitted to post anything here on Paizo, or does the wrongness of his actions forever taint him?See, there are these funny things known as reputations and memories, so it really doesn't matter that it didn't happen on this thread, it matters that it happened at all, and that I'm a denizen first, and a Paizoan a hell of a lot further down the list, just above "queen of england".
Ahhh...I see. So, it's a vendetta/personal grudge. How cute! I bet he rues the day he tangled with the den.
And how odd that you and the den-izens find hostility here. It's almost as if those reputations and memories run both ways. Interesting. Perhaps there's some causal relationship between these two sets of interactions...
If only there were a way to put aside that crap and just have an intelligent and civil discussion. Oh well, I'm sure one side will sufficiently prove their absolute correctness and everyone will acknowledge it, thus ending any conflict.
I missed where that happened in this thread - can you point it out? Or should we just generally scorn and attack Lich-Loved because he disagreed with Frank at some point in the past and it got heated on both sides? Is he ever permitted to post anything here on Paizo, or does the wrongness of his actions forever taint him and require that we challenge everything he might say?
really it's the fact that you have no clue about what you're talking about in most debates against denizens, or at least what we're talking about, and refuse to even try and figure it out. and you were after frank's nuts at every turn, and I happen to like frank. even the people at the den that don't feel any particular way about him will probably defend him out a sense of society.
Yes. The same way you must be challenged at all turns. Your illusionary reign of lawful terror is over! ;)
Prak: ...so I don't get it, why rail against moderation on a board you have, by your own admission above, no investment in?
because I was trying to help by pointing out the stupidity of this new rule(silly me, trying to help paizo... I should know better by know) and because this is getting fun...
the den is the Gaming Den, a much more loose forum where we don't really need to censor ourselves too much... it's not a gulag for trolls, we denizens just have a reaction to the magical radiation of bytopia that causes us to polymorph when too much of it builds up in our systems...
Ahhh...I see. So, it's a vendetta/personal grudge. How cute! I bet he rues the day he tangled with the den.
the point of this post was? I mean, other than being a jerk... :)
So is it just me or do these so-called den-izens take turns coming over here and throwing down gauntlets? If the den is so much better why go anywhere else? Especially here.
Because you like the attention and we're lemmings enough to give it to you. Silly us.
I know it's hard...but if Sebastian et.al. would stop responding they'd just go away.
So is it just me or do these so-called den-izens take turns coming over here and throwing down gauntlets? If the den is so much better why go anywhere else? Especially here.
Because you like the attention and we're lemmings enough to give it to you. Silly us.
I know it's hard...but if Sebastian et.al. would stop responding they'e just go away.
honestly, this is true, the other denizens have forsaken this place. I said my peace trying to help, now I'm just checking the responses to my posts because this is fun.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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debate will inevitably escalate, especially on "teh intarwebs," so if you don't want people being jerks, preclude debate, it's simple and looks a hell of a lot better.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
Debate only escalates into jerkitude if the people debating aren't intelligent or mature enough to debate without being jerks.
On usenet, BBs, BBSes, and intarwebs from the 80s to today, some debates turn into jerk-fests, and some debates turn into... advanced, intelligent, mature, deeply probing, insightful... debates! Check out any National Forensic Society competition sometime for an example, or head down to your local courthouse. It seems that some people have mastered the fine art of arguing very different interpretations of facts, rules, laws, and ideas without devolving into jerks.
There is nothing inevitable at all about jerkitude. Debates can escalate in depth, rigor, seriousness, creativity, and even passion quite easily without jerkification. Jerkiness is entirely orthogonal to debate, and in fact wholly unrelated to it. There is no necessary correlation between the two, however common it may be in some circles.
(P.S. If anyone thinks gamer websites are bad for jerks, check out the messageboards on a sports website some time, geez!)
You must be rapid-tapping the refresh button because you quoted me before I could correct the damn spelling error.
Don't you have anything better to do that's actually game-related?
Damn. I'm a lemming.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So is it just me or do these so-called den-izens take turns coming over here and throwing down gauntlets? If the den is so much better why go anywhere else? Especially here.
Because you like the attention and we're lemmings enough to give it to you. Silly us.
I know it's hard...but if Sebastian et.al. would stop responding they'd just go away.
But then no one would be proven wrong, and that's the whole point of this. It must be established, absolutely and completely, who was at fault, why they were at fault, and the degree to which they were at fault so that appropriate internet scorn and anger can be directed at the guilty/foolish parties.
Or, to take out an old chestnut from 300:
So is it just me or do these so-called den-izens take turns coming over here and throwing down gauntlets? If the den is so much better why go anywhere else? Especially here.
Because you like the attention and we're lemmings enough to give it to you. Silly us.
I know it's hard...but if Sebastian et.al. would stop responding they'd just go away.
But then no one would be proven wrong, and that's the whole point of this. It must be established, absolutely and completely, who was at fault, why they were at fault, and the degree to which they were at fault so that appropriate internet scorn and anger can be directed at the guilty/foolish parties.
Or, to take out an old chestnut from 300:
~looks at Sebastian and licks my lips~ Alright! I get to put the Horsey into Arby's Horsey Sauce! Come here you delicious looking equine!
I suppose...but how can I seriously get into it when there are Bella Sara ponies all over the place.
Worse than the [bleep!]ing Smurfs!
~pulls out the meat cleaver~ Come here Sebastian! I promise not to hurt you.
much.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I went to my first gaming/sci-fi con 2 months ago with Clinton Boomer for a little Superstar party up in Vancouver, BC. While there, I bought myself a refrigerator magnet with the following lovely chestnut:
It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I explain where you're wrong, you are suppose to become enlightened and change your mind. Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional.
Just kind of thinking of that as this discussion went along...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Bring it, you nickel-plated lizard. As you may know, I was already declared the winner of every fight ever in the history of these boards. When I'm finished with you, you'll be crying in the shower wondering why the lavendar scent won't wash away from your skin and considering how exactly you will explain the horseshoe shaped scars all over your body.
Bring it, you nickel-plated lizard. As you may know, I was already declared the winner of every fight ever in the history of these boards. When I'm finished with you, you'll be crying in the shower wondering why the lavendar scent won't wash away from your skin and considering how exactly you will explain the horseshoe shaped scars all over your body.
Bring it, you nickel-plated lizard. As you may know, I was already declared the winner of every fight ever in the history of these boards. When I'm finished with you, you'll be crying in the shower wondering why the lavendar scent won't wash away from your skin and considering how exactly you will explain the horseshoe shaped scars all over your body.
I give you the Seal of Approval.
The last thing in the world Paizo cares about is what folks are doing on other boards. Inter-board politics--don't care. Intra-board politics--vested interest.
There are other messageboards?
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The last thing in the world Paizo cares about is what folks are doing on other boards. Inter-board politics--don't care. Intra-board politics--vested interest.
Really, that's the last thing? What about an obscure cult devoted to spreading the use of liverwurst as an alternative to honey? Or the record for collecting human navel lint?
I kid because I love, because seriously let's keep our fun here and everyone else can have fun elsewhere.
This rule, albeit a bit vague, helps us to better correct the style of poster who doesn't necessarily violate our TOS but pushes the boundaries a lot with a passive-aggressive, mean-spirited, and habitually angry posting style. Our messageboards aren't therapy--you're not going to work anything out here by being aggressive and angry with the other denizens. People can disagree with us, with each other, with the world and do it politely. Inability to disagree with someone politely, as the children like to say, is epic fail.
I find that when I'm trying to train my students to take on certain writing habits, providing several model papers--both good and bad--is a good way to demonstrate what I mean clearly. I usually know exactly what I want or can recognize a good new approach when I see it; of course, what's clear in my head may not be clearly expressed.
What a "jerk" is may be clear in your offices right now, or to posters on various threads, but having a few examples of model and out-of-bounds responses—real or faked—would prove helpful as a guide, I'm guessing.
Also, the qualifier "habitual" SHOULD be in your POS if it's as important as one poster made it out to be. That undercuts a lot of issues.
Actually, people have been debating for a long time about things far more important than gaming without resorting to an escalating situation resulting in vitriolic attacks. However, participating calmly in debate takes maturity and restraint. I see no reason why those that have such traits should be precluded from carrying on intelligent debate simply because the Internet came along and gave those not worthy a microphone and a stage.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
OT: Obviously, a number of RL agitators used what their society would have termed calculated rudeness to promote important social changes: Mother Jones and Rosa Parks spring immediately to mind. /OT
Sadly, some people's fun begins where other's fun ends.
Sad, and rather sick and pitiful.
Except for borderline cases, I bet that being a jerk is a lot like the infamous definition of porn: most of us know it when we see it, most of the time.|
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OT: Obviously, a number of RL agitators used what their society would have termed calculated rudeness to promote important social changes: Mother Jones and Rosa Parks spring immediately to mind. /OT
I am quite certain, though, that you are not claiming that anyone that has been recently banned or suspended from these boards is on the same plane as Rosa Parks or Mother Teresa...um...are you?
This exchange (during a civilized debate no less) comes to mind:
Quayle: Three times that I've had this question — and I will try to answer it again for you, as clearly as I can, because the question you are asking is, "What kind of qualifications does Dan Quayle have to be president," "What kind of qualifications do I have," and "What would I do in this kind of a situation?" And what would I do in this situation? [...] I have far more experience than many others that sought the office of vice president of this country. I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency. I will be prepared to deal with the people in the Bush administration, if that unfortunate event would ever occur.
Judy Woodruff: Senator [Bentsen]?
Bentsen: Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.
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OT: Obviously, a number of RL agitators used what their society would have termed calculated rudeness to promote important social changes: Mother Jones and Rosa Parks spring immediately to mind. /OTActually, people have been debating for a long time about things far more important than gaming without resorting to an escalating situation resulting in vitriolic attacks. However, participating calmly in debate takes maturity and restraint. I see no reason why those that have such traits should be precluded from carrying on intelligent debate simply because the Internet came along and gave those not worthy a microphone and a stage.One can debate politely, in a civilized manner.
"Don't be a jerk" doesn't preclude intelligent debate unless one or more of the debaters is incapable of being polite and civilized.
Rosa Parks wasn't rude. She wouldn't give up her seat for a man.
He was the ass. The collective entity that was our society was the ass.She stood up to bullies. Or sat down, as it were.
Comparing her to rude brats who need lessons in how to talk to people is pretty shaky.
It's not a court of law. They're not being thrown in prison, they're being asked to leave for being asses. It's a value judgment, true, but I think you actually do them a favor by refusing to put up with their nonsense.
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Rosa Parks wasn't rude. She wouldn't give up her seat for a man.
He was the ass. The collective entity that was our society was the ass.
She stood up to bullies. Or sat down, as it were.
Comparing her to rude brats who need lessons in how to talk to people is pretty shaky.
It's not a court of law. They're not being thrown in prison, they're being asked to leave for being asses. It's a value judgment, true, but I think you actually do them a favor by refusing to put up with their nonsense.
Well said.
Nods. And while value judgments are always disputable and sometimes controversial, it is impossible to live without them.
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These couple of posts that ask for definition or examples of what is a jerk, or complain that the phrase “don’t be a jerk” is too vague or whatever … frankly, they seem … a bit silly.
Because:
A – the Paizo messageboards are not run as a democracy. If Paizo sees fit to set a rule, well, that’s really their call.
B – recent history has shown that the moderators here are almost always fair and reasonable, and tend to err on the side of not disciplining posters.
C – c’mon … 99% of the time, if you’re being a jerk, you know it.
D – if you’re really not sure … if you really think something you post might be taken as jerky when you don’t think it is … maybe just re-think posting it anyway. ‘Cos if you think it might be jerky, chances are it is.
E – the jerk clause is meant to be sort of catch all; you’d think all the other rules would stop 100% of anti-social posts, but some people like to skirt close to the edge, or observe the letter but not the spirit of the rules. The jerk clause is for them. If you define it too explicitly, it kind of defeats the purpose.
F – if you still really need a definition of the word … look it up. It’s a real word, Paizo didn’t make it up to trick you. (Mind you, there are a lot of ways to define the word – steer clear of any and all of them and you should be right).
All this talk of jerking and porn....I'll be back in 7 minutes
All this talk of jerking and porn....I'll be back in 7 minutes
It's going to take you 7 minutes?
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Director of Narrative
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Edit: Mothman, you, as usual, are so right.
For anyone not actively trying out their douchbag training wheels who might feel like they are treading into the Realm of Jerk and have concerns, here’s some advice. (Or at least what I do when I’m all rev’d up.)
Open a program that you can type text into (Word, notepad, etc) and write out your post.
Re-read it. (This also allows you to find mistakes in your post.)
Consider it.
Copy/Paste.
(Refresh for good measure to see if anyone beat you to your point.)
Hit ‘Reply’, then ‘Submit’. (This also helps defeat the messageboard monster.)
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Senior Software Developer
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Mothman pretty much nails it. It's not so much that we needed a New Rule in our Official Terms of Service, as that we wanted to make crystal clear in an obvious place like the messageboards FAQ something that's been true here since we launched our messageboards. If you look back you'll see plenty of occasions where we've said that the number one rule here is to not be a jerk.
And Daigle, you're spot on as well. I can't count the number of public posts I have successfully reconsidered posting. :-)
<Slinks away.>