Given that all the casters get at-will cantrips, I'd be in favor of letting the Rogue's Minor Magic give him a cantrip at will. (Though in this case, Major Magic should probably jump to 3 times per day, if not 4, since it's only technically worth 720 gp according to the item creation guidelines vs the at-will-cantrip's 900).
The difference is that the rogue isn't a caster. If he wants at-will cantrips, he can easily take a level of spell-caster. The limited cantrips are a talent, not a whole class ability.
The difference is that the rogue isn't a caster. If he wants at-will cantrips, he can easily take a level of spell-caster. The limited cantrips are a talent, not a whole class ability.
Obviously, he's not a caster. That's not my point. My point is that the casters have devalued having cantrips as per-day resources.
If he's not a caster, then he shouldn't be able to choose Minor Magic at all. But since it was decided that he's enough of one to do so, then it should be at the same value as any other caster (at-will). Casters start off with three of them anyway, and their real power is in 1st level spells anyway.
Giving a class the option to either improve their class features or set it on fire is creating a trap for inexperienced players to make even more subpar characters that will make them sad in gameplay.
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If he's not a caster, then he shouldn't be able to choose Minor Magic at all. But since it was decided that he's enough of one to do so, then it should be at the same value as any other caster (at-will). Casters start off with three of them anyway, and their real power is in 1st level spells anyway.
Giving a class the option to either improve their class features or set it on fire is creating a trap for inexperienced players to make even more subpar characters that will make them sad in gameplay.
I'm still very much in favor of removing these magic talents from the class altogether. As many have said, the Rogue is NOT a spell caster and should not be casting spells period. That said, if the magic talents must remain as an option, then I certainly am against making them at will!
If he's not a caster, then he shouldn't be able to choose Minor Magic at all. But since it was decided that he's enough of one to do so, then it should be at the same value as any other caster (at-will). Casters start off with three of them anyway, and their real power is in 1st level spells anyway.
Giving a class the option to either improve their class features or set it on fire is creating a trap for inexperienced players to make even more subpar characters that will make them sad in gameplay.
This is pretty much my point. None of the 0-level spells are worth having two uses per day of.
@Matthew Morris:
That it's only one cantrip makes it enough of a parlor trick. Starting Wizards get three, and they can change them each day, in addition to their 1st level spells.
I would point out that minor and major arcane do NOT let you cast spells...
They do give you a SPELL-LIKE ability to use some spells a limited number of times per day.
If use magic device is going to stick around I don't think these talents are over the top and they have some precedent from 2ed "player's options: Skills and Powers".
However I'm all for them staying limited use powers, they aren't casters, they are people with a 'knack' or a interesting one time "I pulled a rabbit out of my hat" thing. It should be an item on their utility belt, not a major tool in hand all the time.
I would love to have prestidigitation 2 times per day personally, that spell is useful at all times.
First, a single 0-level spell at-will is still never going to be anything other than a knack.
Second, why shouldn't it be a major tool if the rogue wants it to be? What's wrong with a rogue wanting to make a name for himself as that guy who sneak-attacks people with ray of frost? He doesn't want to be a caster, so a dip isn't really appropriate. He just wants this one particular thing he can do. Twice per day, in addition to being very underpowered (according to the Item Creation guidelines, it's worth ~360 gp, half that if he's got a caster with Craft Wondrous Items in the party), means he can't do what he wants to be known for whenever he might want to be known for it.
Full agreement with Blaine. "They are not casters" is a pure flavour excuse, and nothing to do with power. A single cantrip a caster does not make.
I don't think cantrips in an of themselves are too powerful, but I worry about taking this talent for say acid splash and having a touch attack vehicle to carry sneak attack without even having to multiclass for it -- in effect creating a bizzare warlock like character out of a rogue. Now it is possible the player will have a great story fluff yada yada yada but it still strikes me a little uneasy.
*cough* acid flask *cough*
not the same, party becuase of it's cost. Personally I would like to see alchemy items require a proficincy to use them without a -4 penalty. But that's another issue.
I love that a rogue can pick up these magic talents. There is quite a lot of flavor there. Having a single 0-level and a single 1st level spell-like ability a limited number of times a day is not a big deal. Rogues, IMHO, are dabblers. Why not let them dabble with magic? It's not like they can't utilize far more potent magic in the form of UMD, right?
Keep the minor and major talent.
I don't think cantrips in an of themselves are too powerful, but I worry about taking this talent for say acid splash and having a touch attack vehicle to carry sneak attack without even having to multiclass for it -- in effect creating a bizzare warlock like character out of a rogue. Now it is possible the player will have a great story fluff yada yada yada but it still strikes me a little uneasy.
It's not functionally much better than sneak-attacking with a shortbow. Touch attack, yes, but it's always only once per round, and he can't even use Shot on the Run with it. Plus, he had to spend a Talent on it.
It's not functionally much better than sneak-attacking with a shortbow. Touch attack, yes, but it's always only once per round, and he can't even use Shot on the Run with it. Plus, he had to spend a Talent on it.
Touch AC versus normal AC is huge for some creatures. The difference between a near guaranteed acid splash versus 3 potential misses with a shortbow is pretty significant. Being able to sneak attack against somethings touch AC of 8-12 versus a 25 AC+ for animals/ dragons or large creatures is huge.
While it's only once per round it's a near guaranteed hit.
It is functionally much better than sneak attacking with a short bow.
That said, easy enough fix, just make sneak attack not work with spells.
It is functionally much better than sneak attacking with a short bow.
Under certain circumstances, yes, it's better.
But remember, the rogue could spend a mere 900 gp and get Ray of Frost at will. A wand is a mere 375 gp (and is he really going to need to use it more than 50 times during a given campaign?). Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
No; I'm perfectly happy with having rogue talents be weak but mildly flavourful. If you want something as good as a feat of your choice, that's a place for advanced rogue talents.
It is functionally much better than sneak attacking with a short bow.Under certain circumstances, yes, it's better.
But remember, the rogue could spend a mere 900 gp and get Ray of Frost at will. A wand is a mere 375 gp (and is he really going to need to use it more than 50 times during a given campaign?). Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
Many rogues in my games use ray wands as means to hit big opponents with sneak attacks. It's a great part of the class and makes them useful against big, armored baddies who can't see them. Talents don't overbalance this, even if the Minor Talent is at will (Major Talents should not be at will, they are more powerful).
Wands do require use magic device; but these ranks let a rogue use nearly ANY magic device (high-level Wands of Scorching Ray are lethal in the right rogue's hands). The talent grants a single spell. Not every monster will be affected by acid or fire or whichever element the rogue is slinging. A clever DM is going to find monsters that challenge his or her specific party.
Plus, you can't flank with wands and spells. So if there's nowhere to hide, there won't be sneak attacks. This isn't the end of the rogue using rapiers or shortbows with mad enchantments. It means that some rogues will throw magic instead of arrows.
If he's not a caster, then he shouldn't be able to choose Minor Magic at all. But since it was decided that he's enough of one to do so, then it should be at the same value as any other caster (at-will).
Pathfinder makes it clear there are different values of casters. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, Wizards and all their various splat book PrCs. Just because a Rogue may get the ability to pop off a copy of a spell naturally doesn’t mean he should be able to do it as well as a true caster.
Second, why shouldn't it be a major tool if the rogue wants it to be? What's wrong with a rogue wanting to make a name for himself as that guy who sneak-attacks people with ray of frost?
Absolutely nothing.
He doesn't want to be a caster, so a dip isn't really appropriate.
Then he must not want the name bad enough. No snark intended. But you want your cake and eat it too. Of course you already offer a valid solution. He can just go buy wand after wand of whatever minor spell he wants to be known for. The movies make us believe that’s what other assassins do. They use the same signature weapon. I’m sure they break or have to be destroyed or left behind sometimes. So your signature Ray of Frost sneak attacking rogue will just need to find a good supplier. Heck, his party member can even do it for him, at a cost savings.
Rogues, IMHO, are dabblers.
I always thought the Bards were the dabblers. That’s probably why they already get to cast spells innately and the Rogues have to settle for use magical device and Ray of Frost wands.
Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
I’d like to think so too. But reading the Cleric, Druid, Paladin forum it seems many groups replace the Cleric with a wand of cure light wounds pretty quick. Was does one of those bad boys cost? What ends up being the cost of replacing one of the primary roles of the Cleric class? And if you get one from China or Taiwan it probably costs half the usual price!
If Minor Magic, Major Magic, and Dispelling attack are going to stay (and I honestly don’t think they should) they should stay at the ‘flavor’ level (which makes me think Dispelling attack should have a limited number of uses per day if it stays in the game). They should be a gee whiz, occasionally useful sort of thing. The classical Rogue is about skullduggery, intelligent maneuvers, and deftly sliding a blade into the right place.
Other Rogues may have done things before, during or after their skullduggery careers and so won’t end up able to do everything a classical Rogue can do but they will have their own specialties to make up for it.
Leave the Rogue the way he is and just multi-class in the flavor stuff you want for your character concept.
Cheers
It is functionally much better than sneak attacking with a short bow.Under certain circumstances, yes, it's better.
But remember, the rogue could spend a mere 900 gp and get Ray of Frost at will. A wand is a mere 375 gp (and is he really going to need to use it more than 50 times during a given campaign?). Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
UMD roll at 2nd level (when this is first available) if you optimize for UMD is
Skill Focus: +3Magical Aptitude: +2
Charisma: +4
Ranks: 2
Class Skill bonus: 3
So +15 or a 30% chance of failure for a rogue who has invested 2 feats plus totally boosted CHA to take advantage of this. The typical rogue is going to have a much lower chance... probably less than a 50% chance.
So 375 gold plus 2 feats and boosting an attribute buys you a 70% chance.
Humans are the only ones who would be able to invest the two feats at second level. By 5th level the chance of failure is much lower but again you have a huge investment in addition to your 375GP. By 10th level UMD is gravy, 11th you can take the skill mastery talent and take 10.
So how about:
Minor Arcana = 1 cantrip 2/ day + 1 1st level spell
Major arcana would be an advanced talent.
Major Arcana = 2 cantrips, unlimited use + a 2nd 1st level spell (maybe multiple uses?)
This would move dispelling attack back so you wouldn't be able to take it until 13th level.
It is functionally much better than sneak attacking with a short bow.Under certain circumstances, yes, it's better.
But remember, the rogue could spend a mere 900 gp and get Ray of Frost at will. A wand is a mere 375 gp (and is he really going to need to use it more than 50 times during a given campaign?). Surely a rogue talent should be harder to duplicate than a mere 375 gp?
Let me rephrase my previous answer. You are comparing an ability with no prerequisites that a rogue can get at second level to an ability (UMD) which the rogue doesn't have reliably until 10th level or so and even then only if he invests resources into that ability (UMD skill ranks plus possible feats and CHA).
No; I'm perfectly happy with having rogue talents be weak but mildly flavourful. If you want something as good as a feat of your choice, that's a place for advanced rogue talents.
But that's not what they are. You can get Weapon Finesse (something almost every melee rogue wants anyway), Weapon Focus, and one other combat feat with your Rogue Talents, so everything else should be worth about a feat so they're all on the same level.
Then he must not want the name bad enough.
My point isn't that he doesn't want to dip because it's too much of an investment, but because it's not what he's looking for. He doesn't want to be a caster who happens to use Ray of Frost a lot. He wants to be that rogue who knows a nasty trick. 2/day doesn't cut it for that. "So, show us that trick you're famous for." "Sorry, can't." Not exactly all that compelling a trick if you can't use it much.
I’d like to think so too. But reading the Cleric, Druid, Paladin forum it seems many groups replace the Cleric with a wand of cure light wounds pretty quick.
The cleric is more than healing, even if the average player doesn't give them more credit than that.
My point isn't that he doesn't want to dip because it's too much of an investment, but because it's not what he's looking for. He doesn't want to be a caster who happens to use Ray of Frost a lot. He wants to be that rogue who knows a nasty trick.
I doubt anyone would confuse a character with a single level (or even 2) of an INT caster along with nearly 20 levels of rogue as a caster.
Most would see him as a rogue that dabbled in magic at some point. And that's exactly the image I thought you're player was looking for. A rogue with a neat (and maybe nasty) magic trick.
Magic tricks don't just happen (well I guess they do for bards and sorcerers but that's not the point of this thread) they take some training.
And yes, some of the rogue talents are better than others. Some are equal to a full-fledge feat. But that is true of rage powers and domain powers and even the feat system in general.
If you want Pathfinder THAT balanced then it won't be backwards compatible. And actually a game that balanced already exists. The Hero System is probably the most balanced game out there. I even played Fantasy Hero several years ago (many more than I care to think about actually).
Cheers
Well if he takes the 1 level of wizard he complete loses the Master strike of a rogue at level 20 and I'm fairly sure that's something he wants to avoid at all costs.
All in all I wouldn't mind seeing a few more uses out of these talents, I just don't think it should be at will or very often. Maybe a somehow scaling max of 3~4 times a day at most.
Most would see him as a rogue that dabbled in magic at some point. And that's exactly the image I thought you're player was looking for. A rogue with a neat (and maybe nasty) magic trick.
That's not what one level of wizard gives you. It gives you a bevy of options, and the level of expertise that that brings. It's much much more than "a neat trick."
And yes, some of the rogue talents are better than others. Some are equal to a full-fledge feat. But that is true of rage powers and domain powers and even the feat system in general.
That doesn't mean we should totally give up. If we can make something balanced, we should.
That doesn't mean we should totally give up. If we can make something balanced, we should.
That's what WotC did with 4E. They balanced the h*ll out of it... and largely eliminated much of the flavour of the game. People are going to play the classes they want to be, regardless of minor imbalances. I hope anyway. Too much time spent balancing the game takes it to the "game" side and away from the "simulation" side. My players adventure in a world, not a rules set. Personally, although I can understand a bit of minor magic for rogues, I think unlimited casting of cantrips is too much of a good thing for what is not, after all, really a class of casters. If you want that much magic it's time to take a level of wizard or sorceror. My 2cp.
I don't think it would be too powerful to make it available at will. We're talking about mere cantrips, after all.
If you think a rogue with unlimited acid splashes is going to be an unstoppable force, remember that a rogue won't give up that much if he got a single level wizard or sorcerer.
If he does that, he can still turn into that unstoppable force - and now he doesn't have to bother with use magic device to get a wand of improved evasion. In fact, he can gorget the weak acid splash and get a an elemental ray instead. That one's supernatural.
Or wait, let's get a level of cleric, for some extra HP, a couple of healing spells, some elemental ray, and a swift 10 foot teleport.
I don't think the lost rogue level will cripple that character.
And if it did, you could still commission a simple magic item that lets you use acid splash at will with a command word, with no class levels or use magic device needed. The Hand of the Mage sets a precedence for this.
But I don't think that it's that much of an issue, as there are limitations:
I think those limitations make it very hard to create a rogue character relying solely on his at will cantrip to do all his damage and seriously outclass rogues with weapons, not to mention fighters. And if they don't, not granting a rogue at will cantrips won't prevent it from happening. Not if you can get the same effect with a single level in another class, or alternately 900gp for an item that virtually every wizard with a craft wondrous item feat would create in a day.
So the question boils down to: Should the rogue have to take a level in a magic user class to have access to really weak magic on a regular basis?
With equal answers no and yes on both sides I'm going to say give the option and keep it just an option. The rogue would still have to contend with spell resistance with ray of frost, and they may end up just taking other spells instead anyways.
At will wouldn't make me throw my hands up and never play pathfinder again and if it would bring enjoyment to someone that wants a d3 ranged touch attack I don't feel my character (whichever type I play) is threatened by this minor ability.
It's not like either combat level 0 spell are the most useful ones on the list for a rogue anyways and there are plenty of ways to get the rest of the level 0's at will through items, multiclassing etc. That if joe the rogue wants to spend a talent on a single cantrip at will I'll just shake my head at his poor choice from an optimization stand point and might applaud his choice if it is in character for his character.
So the question boils down to: Should the rogue have to take a level in a magic user class to have access to really weak magic on a regular basis?
I think either a level dip or move the talent up to a higher level.
With equal answers no and yes on both sides I'm going to say give the option and keep it just an option. The rogue would still have to contend with spell resistance with ray of frost, and they may end up just taking other spells instead anyways.
Again, my issue is at lower levels. At levels 1-8 SR is rarely an issue. Move the power up to a higher level (maybe 6th?) and it wouldn't bother me as much.
Thrown Splash Weapons, pg 152, 1st Paragraph, Last Sentence.Fixed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingAs an aside, I am still considering this issue. There seem to be a lot of folks on both sides of the minor and major magic talents.
That isn't fixed (needs to be broken first). That's just changed.
Rogue's Minor Magic
I just want to know one thing: the rogue, in choosing this talent, must choose one and ONLY one spell not per day, but for all the time, isn't it?
I hope (and assume) that the spell is static once chosen and can't be changed.
However, the text isn't clear. It doesn't mention it one way or another.
-S
I just want to know one thing: the rogue, in choosing this talent, must choose one and ONLY one spell not per day, but for all the time, isn't it?
Rogue's Minor Magic
Yup... and you can't take it a second time.
If a rogue can eventually cast Wish or Miracle (by reading a scroll with Use Magic Device), I don't see how being able to cast a cantrip without a scroll is completely out of character.
It should be a number of times equal to Intelligence Modifier.
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I'd like to put in another vote for Minor and Major Magic- mostly for the fun a rogue can have with Prestidig, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, and Message. not to mention the 1st levels, particularly some of the Spell Compendium ones.
However, I do agree that it could use a bit of a power boost; hells, Id be satisfied with 3/day (3 is always a better number).
Why would anyone pick ray of frost for a rogue? Like I said, its the lovely little utility spells that a rogue gets the most use out of. Keep 'em.
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If he's not a caster, then he shouldn't be able to choose Minor Magic at all. But since it was decided that he's enough of one to do so, then it should be at the same value as any other caster (at-will). Casters start off with three of them anyway, and their real power is in 1st level spells anyway.
Giving a class the option to either improve their class features or set it on fire is creating a trap for inexperienced players to make even more subpar characters that will make them sad in gameplay.
I'm an experienced player, my favorite combo for this rogue talent is...Detect Magic for minor magic...goes perfect with the appraise class skill..and then major magic True Strike...
As a GM I think it works fine as written. 3/day would be the only change I'd make as well.
Ray of Frost, nice way to deliver a sneak attack, unarmed...and touch...nasty...allowing it to be at will would be a bit...much I think.
Ray of Frost, nice way to deliver a sneak attack, unarmed...and touch...nasty...allowing it to be at will would be a bit...much I think.
It's not as if the rogue couldn't get there relatively easily:
You could get a Rod of Frost or something like that, a magic item that shoots rays of frost on command. You can create one of those so it works at will, and works for everyone.
And even if you don't allow this, all it takes for the rogue to pull it off right now is one level of wizard or sorcerer. In fact, forget ray of frost or acid splash. They're weaksauce. Become an evoker and get yourself energy ray. That one's supernatural and you can choose the energy type, and it's 1d6.
And lagging behind one level in the rogue class isn't that much really. If such a spell sneak were that powerful, we'd see few rogues without a level of evoker.
I play rogues because I don't know nor care to know what a cantrip is.
It's someone who's willing and able to travel, of course.
Mild form of a willtrip.
No; I'm perfectly happy with having rogue talents be weak but mildly flavourful. If you want something as good as a feat of your choice, that's a place for advanced rogue talents.
That might be interesting as a advanced rogue talent.
Improved Minor Magic
Pick a spell gained with Minor magic, this spell is now a at will power. Minor magic is a prerequisite for this Talent.
I am against the at will path, I think, for no other reason than it feels wrong. Don't know if it will be too much if it were, but I say leave it be as is or as some people suggested, either 3/day or 1+int mod or some such.
I'm just putting the finishing touches on a rogue with minor and major magic talents. I Chose Mage Hand and Shield, and twice a day seems fine to me. And the Mage Hand gives the rogue a certain Jedi feel... :-P
Yeah... and I do intend to get the dispelling talent as soon as possible (playing the City of the SpiderQueen, might be useful there)