Director of Games
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Welcome to the Errata and Typos thread for the Bard, Monk, and Rogue portions of the classes chaper. If you spot any typos or rules that need errata in this section, please post them to this thread. Note that this is not a thread for discussing rules changes, only obvious mistakes or unclear rules. We have done our best to make these chapters as clean as possible, but 10,000 eyes are better than 12. Thanks for your help.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
pg 39: Rogue Talent
Clarification is probably required on Combat Trick,
"Combat Trick: A rogue may gain a combat feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent."
I can see three ways of interpreting it.
The correct, I assume, way is that you gain one Combat Feat when you select that talent, and as a talent it can only be selected once.
However the phrasing of "in place of" makes it seem this option might be able to be taken more than once.
Another reading is that this Talent give you the ability to substitute Combat feats for all subsequent Talents
If it is supposed to be either of the last two options, then I'd sugest restricting the list of feats else you're cutting too much into the purview of the fighter.
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Hi! Still need a bit of clarification on rogue sneak attack (pg 38 and 40).
1. Does cover preclude sneak attack in the same manner as concealment?
2. The snaek attack description (pg 38)mentions not being able to strike an opposing creature’s limbs – does this just refer to attacking limbs? I guess the question I am asking here is would a halfling rogue (with no alternate methods of movement and no reach or ranged weapon) be unable to sneak attack a creature whose core body is out of reach, say a storm giant?
3. With the expanded sneak attack, the list of creature types immune to sneak attack appears to be: incorporeal undead, elementals (all types), oozes, and any other creature with homogeneous construction. That last item might cause a bit of consternation, as it can be interpreted very differently by different people. You could easily say that a flesh golem has vitals (of sorts) that a rogue could take advantage of, but does this apply to all golems? Does a stone golem have weak spots, or is it a homogeneous mass of animated stone? I could see both interpretations for a stone golem. Some guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading.
Sneak Attack could be clarified, as mentioned.
The "some Undead" isn't really very clear, thoug I take to mean NON-Corporeal Undead are immune.
As well, I surmise that the clarification of Sneak Attack is really pertaining to ALL Precision Damage, i.e. including Critical Hits. If so, this information should probably be given larger context in a Precision Damage sub-section of the Combat Chapter, rather than being a side-bar in the Rogue Class.
Sneak Attack could be clarified, as mentioned.
The "some Undead" isn't really very clear, thoug I take to mean NON-Corporeal Undead are immune.As well, I surmise that the clarification of Sneak Attack is really pertaining to ALL Precision Damage, i.e. including Critical Hits. If so, this information should probably be given larger context in a Precision Damage sub-section of the Combat Chapter, rather than being a side-bar in the Rogue Class.
I also interpret it as undead without intelligence like zombies and skeletons.
I thought that the new idea for Pathfinder was if it was amorphous (elemental/ooze) or incorporeal, it was immune. I don't think that intelligence (or lack thereof) has any part in it.
I thought that the new idea for Pathfinder was if it was amorphous (elemental/ooze) or incorporeal, it was immune. I don't think that intelligence (or lack thereof) has any part in it.
You are right, I just read it as undead without intelligence do not care where you stab them, they do not feel pain or slow down.
On the other hand a Vampire losing his hand or getting stabbed into the brain would care.
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Some of the class descriptions under "Class Features" say "The following are class features of the ___." and some say "All of the following are class features of the ___." That probably should be made consistent.
Bard
Page 16. Should Bardic Knowledge be identified as "Ex"?
Page 17. In Table 4-3, some of the Bardic Performance abilities are italicized; probably none of them should be unless they're actually spell-like abilities.
Monk
Page 28. I think there may be an extra space between the comma and "and spear" under Weapon and Armor Proficiencies.
Rogue
Page 39. The first sentence of the Evasion description features some nice flavor language omitted from the description of Evasion under monk on page 29. I like the flavor, and suggest it be added to Evasion under monk.
pg 39: Rogue Talent
Clarification is probably required on Combat Trick,
"Combat Trick: A rogue may gain a combat feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent."
I can see three ways of interpreting it.
The correct, I assume, way is that you gain one Combat Feat when you select that talent, and as a talent it can only be selected once.
However the phrasing of "in place of" makes it seem this option might be able to be taken more than once.
Another reading is that this Talent give you the ability to substitute Combat feats for all subsequent Talents
If it is supposed to be either of the last two options, then I'd sugest restricting the list of feats else you're cutting too much into the purview of the fighter.
This are my very same thoughts. The Combat Trick rogue talent, if it could be taken more than once, would render the talents Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training redundant - not counting, rendering the Fighter nearly useless.
I truly hope it's only a matter of misleading phrasing.|
Director of Games
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pg 39: Rogue Talent
Clarification is probably required on Combat Trick,
"Combat Trick: A rogue may gain a combat feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent."
I can see three ways of interpreting it.
The correct, I assume, way is that you gain one Combat Feat when you select that talent, and as a talent it can only be selected once.
However the phrasing of "in place of" makes it seem this option might be able to be taken more than once.
Another reading is that this Talent give you the ability to substitute Combat feats for all subsequent Talents
If it is supposed to be either of the last two options, then I'd sugest restricting the list of feats else you're cutting too much into the purview of the fighter.
This are my very same thoughts. The Combat Trick rogue talent, if it could be taken more than once, would render the talents Finesse Rogue and Weapon Training redundant - not counting, rendering the Fighter nearly useless.
I truly hope it's only a matter of misleading phrasing.
You can only take this once. I will clarify the wording.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The Bard's inspire competence refers to music, even though it is usable with all kinds of performance.
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You can only take this once. I will clarify the wording.pg 39: Rogue Talent
Clarification is probably required on Combat Trick,
"Combat Trick: A rogue may gain a combat feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent."
The correct, I assume, way is that you gain one Combat Feat when you select that talent, and as a talent it can only be selected once.
Excellent clarification. Now the presence of things like Weapon Finesse as possible talents doesn't seem redundant with Combat Trick. Thanks.
A bard can
cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield
without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance .
Like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or
heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell
failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
That needs fixed too as it says both they can and no they can't.
Under Fascinate (Sp) it says the bard can "use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him." Later, under Suggestion (Sp) it says that "A bard can use this bardic performance ability utilizing any type of Perform." Since suggestion only works on a creature that the bard has already fascinated, the bard is really continuing the same performance to add an additional effect. The allowed Perform skills should therefore be the same for both effects. (Why would you switch in the middle?) I assume that "any type of Perform" is correct for both effects. For example, it certainly makes sense for dance to fascinate a creature, not just music or poetics.
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p16, Bardic Knowledge - "He gains 1 bonus skill point to place in that Knowledge skill and an additional skill point every time he gains a level." It should probably read "... every time he gains a bard level." A little redundant, but a lot more clear. That seems to be how other classes like monk phrase things as well.
Page 39 Table 4-11 Lists "Advanced Talent" and "Rogue Talent" at 10th level which seems to imply that you get both a rogue talent and an advanced talent. The actual rule is pretty clear in the text but the wording in the table is pretty confusing.
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p39, Table 4-11
The text on p.40 under Advanced talents is clear:
At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.
The table, however, is confusing. At 10th level it looks like a rogue gets both a regular talent and an advanced talent, and then at 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20, just regular talents again.
Maybe the table should read "Rogue talent or advanced talent" or something like that at 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20. Or maybe it should just read "Advanced talent" and the note under the advanced talents entry should be that you can take a regular talent in place of an advanced talent, rather than the current you can take an advanced talent if you want to. Just semantics, I realize, but the current text makes it seem like taking regular talents should be the norm when I assume folks will mostly take advanced talents once they can.
EDIT: Damn! Ogre beat me to it!
On page 82 in the feats section, it states under the Armor Proficiency Medium that:
"Barbarian, BARDS, clerics, druids, fighters and paladins automatically have Medium Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat."
I believe that bards only get Light Armor Proficiency
I would imagine that any amorphous or incorporeal being is immune to sneak attacks, however temporary that existence may be. A vampire could assume mistform to evade the sneaky rogue and his nasty dagger, but he may well be better off remaining corporeal and lamping the tricky bugger first!
You are right, I just read it as undead without intelligence do not care where you stab them, they do not feel pain or slow down.
On the other hand a Vampire losing his hand or getting stabbed into the brain would care.
Mindless un-dead probably don't care if you hit/stab them ANYWHERE.
Think of Star Wars, Luke's attack run on the "sensitive" part of the Death Star.
The Death Star is not sentient or itself CARES about being attacked there,
it's just MATERIALLY a more effective place to strike it. (= Bonus Damage for being "more effective" Damage)
Not the right place, but there's a silly typo in the feats section, improved unarmed strike. p.89 (in bold):
Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—
you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from
armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.
(You might consider setting up typo and errata threads for all subjects now. )
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That needs fixed too as it says both they can and no they can't.
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance .
Like any other arcane spell-caster, a bard wearing medium or
heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell
failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
My personal judgment is that the word or should actually be the word and so that it reads :
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.Like any other arcane spell caster, a bard wearing medium or
heavy armor and using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell
failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
I would also add to this, and this is just what my group decided is that it should also include a restriction requiring that the bard does have spell failure chance with heavy shields.
Under the description of the rogue ability "Surprise Attacks", it states "Opponents who cannot be caught flat-footed (such as through improved uncanny dodge) are immune." Uncanny Dodge (and Improved Uncanny Dodge) does not prevent you from being flat-footed; it just allows you to retain your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed.
unify: durations and range of performances to better be able to memorize them
p16 contradiction: Bard, Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, "...can cast spells when wearing light armor and using a shield..." and later "... or using a shield incurs a chance of spell failure..."
p31 possible error: Monk, Abundant Step: caster level = class level
p31 unify: Diamond Body and Druid's Venom Immunity should have the same names since they actually do the same
Page 30: Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s gains a pool of ki,...
Should be just "a monk gains".
unify: durations and range of performances to better be able to memorize them
p16 contradiction: Bard, Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, "...can cast spells when wearing light armor and using a shield..." and later "... or using a shield incurs a chance of spell failure..."
In addition: what about tower shields in regard to this rule?
the only issue i've had with the rogue talents is there should be more. the advanced talents are very limited, sure everyone'll take improved evasion but more is always good.
[...] If you spot any typos or rules that need errata in this section, please post them to this thread.
Page 18. Fascinate
"Fascinate (Sp): [...] (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. [...] Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result ....the new perform check?
Is the DC vs a perform check or vs 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier?
One more question.
Should we just post questions/observations related to obvious flaws or will you (or anyone at Paizo answer)?
I know this last 'question' might bring down your wrath on me but it's a valid question. Our Ranger is still waiting for her combat feats and the Bard don't know if he can or ca't cast spells when using a shiled.
We should all playtest the same game right? That would help you, Paizo and all players. I know you and Paizo can't be active in all threads but the all erata threds are importent.
/Zark aka TomJohn
[...] Perfect Self
The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.
My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic. [...]
Yes I agree, but I think the 20th level monk ability still needs a boost even if the DR grants 10/chaotic.
I picked this from another thread. It's a good point I think
You can only take a single talent once, so there is no issue anyway.
Usually, yes; the problem is that the text says
"Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent."
Reading this text, it's not really clear if you can choose to take a Feat instead of a Rogue Talent ANY time you could choose an Advanced Talent.
I remember Jason saying that Combat Trick, being a Talent, can be chosen only once; I'm not aware if this is the case of Feat, too
(previously, in 3.x, a Rogue could choose a Feat instead of a Special Ability any time he could take them, at 10th, 13th, 16, and 19th...)
The rules for Abundant Step are not very clear.
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is 1/2 his monk level." (page 31)
- Since Dimension Door (the ability on which Abundant Step is based) says that "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.", does this include Abundant Step as well ?
(I hope not, or the ability to make Abundant Step as a move action i useful only if this is the LAST action you make in the round... useful for fleeing from an enemy, not for approaching it).
- Since Dimension Door allows the caster to bring other creatures with him, does Abundant Step include this feature, too ?
(I think this is a 'personal only' Monk ability, but in either case, this should be specified).
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The rules for Abundant Step are not very clear.
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is 1/2 his monk level." (page 31)- Since Dimension Door (the ability on which Abundant Step is based) says that "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.", does this include Abundant Step as well ?
(I hope not, or the ability to make Abundant Step as a move action i useful only if this is the LAST action you make in the round... useful for fleeing from an enemy, not for approaching it).- Since Dimension Door allows the caster to bring other creatures with him, does Abundant Step include this feature, too ?
(I think this is a 'personal only' Monk ability, but in either case, this should be specified).
Definitely need some clarification on this. Is it meant to be a get-away ability, or a combat ability...monks are already hamstringed enough without making this a worthless ability.
I believe it should be self-only, move action, act afterwards.