Director of Game Design
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Hi there all,
I have been working for a while on a number of upgrades to the paladin. Below is our current draft of these upgrades. These changes do not affect the paladin chart in any way save one. The paladin currently is upgraded to "good" Will saves, meaning that her Will saves match her Fortitude saves.
I would like to take this incrementally. Although I am not convinced that this solves all of the paladin's issues, I do not want to overshoot (hence the absence of brand new abilities). Lets take a look at these and see where they lead us. There is still plenty of time to get this right.
Now for some questions. Do these upgrades, especially those made to smite evil, help to level the playing field for a paladin in melee? (Note that the paladin should not, generally speaking, equal the fighter unless the circumstances are favorable to the paladin). Does the change to lay on hands and channel energy allow the paladin to be a capable healer without overshadowing the cleric? Considering the rules from the [Design Focus] Animal Companion thread, do the rules for a paladin's bonded mount provide a suitable mount across all levels? Do you prefer the current version of the rules (where the mount stays on your plane and can teleported to your location) or the old version (where the mount roams the celestial realms to be called by you)?
Other thoughts?
Enjoy
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Class Features
The following class features of the paladin have been changed from those in the Beta edition of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning its strength as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. This ability is activated as a swift action and lasts for 1 round. When smiting evil, a paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) on her attack rolls and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level whenever she attacks an evil creature. If the creature hit by a paladin using smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype or undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to 1d6 points of damage per two levels the paladin possesses (minimum +1d6) and the damage automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by evil creatures. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, she does not gain any bonuses on attack or damage rolls, but she retains the AC bonus against evil creatures.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of the smite increases by 1 round, to a total of 3 rounds at 16th level.
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma bonus. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin target’s herself, in which case it is a swift action. As a paladin gains levels, she can use this ability to create other effects. The DC for any of these abilities is based off the paladin’s Charisma. Using any other ability is a standard action, regardless of the target.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
Channel Positive Energy (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to channel positive energy as a cleric. Using this ability consumes two use of her lay on hands ability. A paladin uses her level as her effective cleric level when channeling positive energy.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms.
The first bond allows her to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. These bonuses do not stack with any properties the weapon already has. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin, but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
If a weapon bearing a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
The second bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount to her side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.
At 11th level, a paladin’s mount gains the celestial template. At 15th level, a paladin’s mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin’s level +11.
Should the paladin’s mount die, the paladin may not summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.
Ooh! A usable Detect Evil, channelling on par with a cleric's, improved smiting and even a good Will save. Excellent!
I think the new Lay On Hands mechanic and having it tied into the Channel Positive Energy is a great step in the right direction. The swift healing for Paladins is a really nice ability; they definitely have more staying power in combat.
I'm looking forward to trying out the changes.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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My favorite change is actually to detect evil. Love it.
Smite: I like it. It's an improvement. I like that it's both offensive and defensive and lasts for a full round. Love the beats all DR.
I will like it even more if Smite-related feats are available that can add bonus effects to the smite (as has been much discussed), or if there is a feat along the lines of, say:
Extend Smite:
Benefit: When you smite evil, you gain the benefits for one additional round.
Requirement: Cha 13+, paladin level 5th
Special: You may take this feat more than once. The effects stack. You must have at least 5 paladin levels for each time you take this feat (once at 5th, once at 10th, etc.)
Or an Extra Smiting feat giving a couple of extra uses per day and that you could take multiple times. That might be the ticket right there, rather than a kludgy extending feats like I lamely proposed above... :)
Lay on hands: I like it. It's an improvement.
Channel energy: I like it. It ties off of the LOH subsystem, which is good. The fact that it takes effect at full cleric level is good. My only thought here is that if there is an Extra Turning or Extra Channeling or similar feat, you should spell out how that interacts with a paladin's channeling, since it doesn't run off of "uses per day" (or, it could provide N amount of uses per day that just don't cost LOH attempts).
I think it would be neat if the paladin's channel energy (or even all channel positive energy) zapped evil outsiders (and neg energy zapped good outsiders) like it does undead, but take that for what it's worth.
Divine bond: I like it. The only point of clarification I would add is making more clear whether adding +1 as an enhancement bonus (not a special power) adds +1 on top of whatever enhancement bonus it already has. The other powers don't stack, that's fine - no keen on top of keen, holy on top of holy, whatever. But if my sword is +1, can I make it +2 - more to the point, does that cost one or two pluses?
Also, given PF is supposing that a high enhancement bonus will beat various DRs with higher bonuses, a clarification of whether this divine bond increase to the weapon's enhancement bonus would affect that (like a permanent enchantment) or not (like GrtMgcWpn).
As for the mount, I like it a lot. I will like it even more if paladins have an improved mount feat to get tooty-frooty mounts (pegasi, unicorns, griffons, dragons, etc.), but you've indicated they probably will, so I'm good with that.
Holy champion: I like it except for one thing: I would rather the paladin get DR 10/- VERSUS evil (so that evil outsiders and unholy weapons and such CAN'T get through it) rather than DR 10/evil (which means that evil outsiders and unholy weapons are the ONLY thing that can get through it). DR/evil essentially makes them more vulnerable vs. their greatest foes, not less.
All in all to the good. Now I'll have to actually take it around the block for a spin and see how I like the way it plays.
Thanks for doing the update.
These changes reconcile all of the issues I had with the Paladin class since the beginning of 3rd edition. I heartily approve of this.
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Ok my only real issue is that as a fighter the paladin is still very much a warrior below level 5. Maybe allowing the lay on hands to be channeled through a weapon strike to tag that damage on for when fighting undead gives a very specific niche that doesn't step elsewhere a sort of mini smite if you will.
The channeling and Layon Hands changes seem to be much what the docter ordered for these abilities.
Jason Buhlman, very nice job here.
I second Jason Nelson with respect to Holy Champion. Paladin's DR should be versus evil.
I like, though I still think they should get Mettle around level 12. Also, I think it would be ok for them to be able to cast all their spells spontaneously (though you could remove Remove Disease and the ilk, since LoH already takes care of that).
Ok, let me start with what I like:
I like the improvements to smite across the board, it really lets the paladin shine the way he should when fighting undead and evil outsiders. The increase to AC from the use of smite, and the lingering effect of smite at higher levels are also quite appropriate.
I like the combination of LoH and CE, especially the ability of the paladin to use the LoH ability as a swift action when he uses it on himself. I also like the fact that CE requires him to use 2 LoH uses. The paladin really should not be focused on healing others in combat, and the swift action use of LoH makes it similar to a limited-use fast-healing ability, which I always felt the paladin should have.
I like the change to Detect Evil. Being able to use it as a move action really allows for decisive action in combat, which I feel is the hallmark of the paladin. Also the limitation of it to a single target I feel is absolutely appropriate, as an at-will ability that takes a lesser action-type than the equivalent spell.
I like the improvement to will saves, I think it is entirely appropriate since wisdom is no longer a primary stat for the paladin.
Now one thing I think needs a little clarification:
The divine bond ability which allows for adding enhancement bonus to the paladin's weapon plus other specific enchantments appropriate to his purpose: Do these bonuses stack? IE, if the paladin chooses to use it on a +2 longsword, can he make it +3? If not, can he make it a +2 axiomatic longsword (keeping in mind that it was a +2 longsword to begin with), or does he need to use up one of his levels of enhancement to make it +1 (non-stacking) before adding effects like axiomatic or holy? Can he choose to take a mundane weapon, such as a masterwork longsword, and make it holy, without first adding a +1 enhancement bonus, or does it suffer from the restriction on creating magic items, where you may not add effects to a weapon until you first give it an enhancement bonus?
Something which I think needs to be fixed:
Divine champion. Rather weak for a capstone ability. DR 10/Evil simply is pointless and redundant at 20th level. First off, most paladins are going to have armor, items and spells cast upon them that give equivalent or better benefit at 20th level, second, most opponents the paladin is going to face at 20th level are going to do evil damage, so pretty much ineffectual. Also, we need a clarification for the banishment effect. The paladin uses his paladin level as the caster level, but is the spell level that of the spell banishment, and what stat is used to determine DC? I assume charisma, but the description of the ability does not say.
Finally, I think that the paladin is still falling behind the fighter in combat prowess in general. The fighter by 20th level will have a cumulative +4 to attack and damage rolls, untyped, from weapon training, not to mention the effects of the weapon specialization feat tree. adding that in, the fighter is ahead of the paladin by +6 on attack and +8 on damage on every swing of his weapon. Perhaps this will be fixed when you focus on feats in the play test, by allowing the paladin access to the weapon specialization feat tree, and if that is the case, I retract this criticism. But if not, even if the paladin has an 18 charisma and eagle's splendor cast on him, he is only going to be equal to the fighter on attack rolls against evil when he is smiting. If you do not intend to open up the weapon specialization feat tree to the paladin, then I suggest you add an always-on bonus to attack (and perhaps damage) when the paladin is fighting evil of any kind, perhaps +1 per 5 levels starting at 5th, thus capping at +4 at 20th level. This should either be untyped, holy or luck bonus (so it does not stack with divine favor).
Combining the sub-systems for Channel Positive Energy and Lay on Hands is an excellent change. It does, however, raise several issues:
1) The interaction between Cleric's and Paladin's Channel Positive Energy needs to be determined and codified. Paladin's and Cleric's levels can, and indeed should, stack for the purposes of the effectiveness of Channel Positive Energy, but there is still the question of how many times per day it can be used. A player could end up with two sub-systems for determining how often to use Channel Positive Energy. Alternatively, it would be possible to state that Cleric's Channel Positive Energy uses turn into a double that number of Lay on Hands uses when the Cleric multiclasses with the Paladin.
2) There now needs to be a solution to how feats and other abilities interact with both sub-systems for Channeling energy. Does Extra Turning (Extra Channeling) now give the Paladin extra uses of the Lay on Hands ability or does it only add extra Channeling per day? I would say the latter, but the system could get a little bit messy - now the Paladin has both Lay on Hands uses to fuel the ability and separate Channeling uses. An alternative could be to simply bar the Paladin from taking feats that cause such problems and perhaps have separate feats for the Paladin. The Paladin thus could not take "Extra Channeling", but would be able to take a feat called "Extra Lay on Hands" or something to that effect. I suppose we could simply let "Extra Channeling" give the Paladin more uses of "Lay on Hands" (2x the bonus Channels it gives) per day.
Clearly, these issues are solvable and I definitely like the new system more than having the two abilities separate. The system would have probably been a bit less messy if it were Channel Energy that fueled Lay on Hands rather than the other way around.
As to the Paladin now overshadowing the Cleric in healing, I doubt this will be an issue. If anything most Clerics will be grateful that Paladin is now a relatively viable healer too, so that they don't have to shoulder the burden alone.
I like all of the changes you have made, especially the good will save and Detect evil changes.
LoH and Channel are good changes as well, I like that it lets the paladin do some effective healing that does not completely waste actions.
Divine bond is well done.
Holy Champion: I really like it, though I suppose I would agree that it should be DR 10/-. Just let it work against everything, by that point the paladin is the living embodiment of his deity (or the values he chooses to uphold).
Things I would add...
Please give paladins Mettle or some form of it. Possibly even some ability that lets them protect their party members. Like a successful save stops the effect in a cone behind the paladin. Or at a certain level the effect covers a 5 or 10 foot area. The paladin has other abilities that help his group if they are so close to him, they should not suffer if an AOE is dropped on his head because they stood by him to gain his bonuses. That is if he makes his save. Then you could add, the subject can defer to the paladin's save and mettle ability or they can choose to make their own save.
Also please PLEASE! give the paladin some form of always active hit/damage bonus. I honestly do not care what form this takes. I would prefer that it was some divine ability but if it was just his martial prowess that would work as well. As others have said, the fighter (even barbarian and rogue) are going to out damage him almost ALWAYS unless he gets some good roles on his smites. I mean the changes to smite are great but even at lvl 8 the paladin will get a TOTAL of 4 uses of the ability a day (if against evil). This bonus should still only work against evil but it should be consistent. I would be happy with a +1/+1 every 4 levels, usable against evil. This really should be addressed though, please.
Then there is caster level. To tell you the truth so many of his other abilities work off of character level, why not just give him full caster level once he can cast spells and then you can do away with all that other text. Also I have noticed that if you want to make magical items as a paladin you can not do it as well as other classes. I would love to pick of craft arms and armor with my paladin but the way it works I would never be able to create anything above a +3, this is a waste of a feat so I will not take it. Just give them full caster level after they gain spells, this does not break the game.
Thats all I can think of for now, quick recap.
All the changes listed are GREAT.
Please add, Mettle, some form of always on hit/damage, and full caster level.
With your changes and those the paladin will be who he should be!
Also, thank you very much for the time you have spent with this class. I really appreciate that the paladin is getting an honest look.
Looking over the paladin's Auras again I really like them...but it reinforces the idea of Mettle and it being an area around the paladin.
I mean a lot of the paladin's abilities ask that the group "clump up" around the paladin. This could be abused by the DM to the point that no one wants to take advantage of the aura's because that next fireball attack is going to slaughter us.
If the paladin were given Mettle, initially only working for him and then eventually it becomes an aura as well this would help fix that problem.
"Stand with me friends, I will help you in your struggle and protect you from harm!"
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Jason in general i like the changes on the palladin, the will was not only necesary, butlogic, SmiteEvil now feels more like smite evil and not "annoy evil a bit"
but i must be with Jason Nelson, the paladin is most vulnerable versus its greatest enemies... i too sai it should be 10/-, they actually go out of their way to fight evil, they need to be resistant against it to survive for another day
(this would explain why everywhere paladins save the day in Golarion, no paladin survives :P)
and yes like Vult i would like to see their aura of protection reinforced, similar to what it was in 2nd Edition
NYC Russ:
Does an effect that lasts 1minute/level really need to be a swift action? You can't sacrifice a single round in combat to make your weapon ultra-brutal for the rest of the combat?
In addition to the (awesome!) changes listed above....
Bonus Feats: The paladin gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 4th level and then every 4 levels there after. These feats can be used to select any divine feat (hopefully the new ones created) or the weapon focus/spec feat chain. This satisfies my desire for an always on effect and allows the paladin to focus on martial combat if he wants.
Mettle: At 6th level a paladin can make a will save throw for half damage against any spell that a rogue could make a reflex save against for half damage. At 8th level this ability surrounds a 10 foot area. At 10th level the paladin and anyone within his area of protection takes no damage on a successful save and no damage on a failed save.
Then of course full caster level :)
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Hi Jason, these are great improvements. I do have a few suggestions.
Smite Evil (Su): ...If the creature hit by a paladin using smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype or undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to 1d6 points of damage per two levels the paladin possesses (minimum +1d6) and the damage automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess...Rather than the 1d6 per two levels, how about just increasing then bonus damage from 1hp per level to 2hp per level? This should keep the game moving along faster.
i do like it more the +1d6 per 2 levels, the paladin has not thatmuch smite evils per day to really slow the game... andi know my players would prefer to roll damage
i agree with Mabven, the ability last long enougt be really need to be a swift action
Many good things.
It is very good to see feedback, as a I have a paladin in my playtest. We will test this out.
My one regret is that the Smite can still miss and be wasted entirely at low levels. This is just too ignominious for a class ability in my opinion, when certain touch spells allow you to retain the charge.
I will be allowing the pally to hold the charge in my playtest (if they take no other action), but I will also be adopting the all the other changes here.
I especially like how Lay on Hands seems like an up-close Channeling. Maybe the rule could emphasize that it also damages undead (good for newbies) and that it is basically a melee channeling. (and maybe consider the suggestion below of letting LoH work in place of a channeling attempt for feats that power off of channeling) That makes clear the paladin's role as part fighter, part cleric. Awesome stuff.
Keep up the good work!
PS—
Holy champion: I like it except for one thing: I would rather the paladin get DR 10/- VERSUS evil (so that evil outsiders and unholy weapons and such CAN'T get through it) rather than DR 10/evil (which means that evil outsiders and unholy weapons are the ONLY thing that can get through it). DR/evil essentially makes them more vulnerable vs. their greatest foes, not less.All in all to the good. Now I'll have to actually take it around the block for a spin and see how I like the way it plays.
Thanks for doing the update.
QFT. Lest the Holy Champion should need a bastion against the fearsome and neutral Tojanida...
First of all I want to say thank you. Letting us know the current thoughts of the designers makes me really feel like we are a part of the process.
Overall- I like it A LOT! I think the paladin needed the most adjustment and is getting very close to perfect.
My comments: There are a number of divine feats that power off of channeling. Could we get some wording added that would allow LoH to be substituted for a channeling attempt?(for the use of those feats)
Please add an extra smiting feat.
I don't care for a permanent +x/+x to a paladin's hit/dmg as has been suggested, it takes away from the fighter too much.
DR/evil- maybe the DR rules need a bit more adjustment to make them work as intended.
divine bond- I really don't care for the weapon aspect of this in its current form. The paladin is primarily a fighter and will be upgrading his/her weapon as they can. If these weapon enhancements don't stack, they would not seem to be very useful. Maybe the weapon could be upgraded in different ways?
What about giving some of the traditional 'holy sword' powers? Temporary Spell resistance, ability to dispel magic, that sort of thing.
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Some quick thoughts:
Detect Evil: This helps the paladin not to smite non-evil beings so often in combat, and I can see why it’s a move-equivalent action (which at first glance felt a bit odd). If anything, Detect Evil will be more useful now, but I’d still like it not being “automatic”, i.e. perhaps there should a Perception check involved? Otherwise it may be abused quite easily…
Lay on Hands: I liked the Beta version more, since it felt thematically more appropriate for the paladin. At 20th level, the paladin with 22 CHA can (in theory) heal 960 (!!!) HPs per day, or deal the same amount as damage to undead. Comparing to 3E, that’s a *HUGE* boost, and I’m not sure I like it, because to me it feels like an overkill.
Smite Evil: I like that it’s a swift action, and the extended duration is probably a good idea. However, I’d personally like to see the bonus damage to undead and outsiders being Feats rather than an automatic feature of this ability. Does the paladin get his level to damage as well, or is the “static” damage “upgraded” to dice against these monster types?
* * *
Some suggestions:
Detect Evil: I’d make it a Perception vs. Bluff check – that way there’s at least a chance that the paladin isn’t running around and exposing evil NPCs everywhere (which might very easily destroy any intrigue-laden campaign).
Lay on Hands: I’d retain the Beta version of this ability, but include the possibility to use all your healing energy in one “burst”. If that is not possible, why not tone down the amount of healing? I would be fine with 1D8 + paladin level per use of this ability, but 60 HPs about twenty times a day seems like a lot (even for 20th level). I’d make it a move-equivalent action to encourage its use on allies in melee, and that way the paladin couldn’t full-attack during the same round (which feels a bit cheesy).
Smite Evil: Instead of a boost to AC, I’d like smite evil to be “reliable” in the sense that you don’t lose it if you miss with your attack. Of course, if the extended duration will make it to the rules, it compensates for this pretty well. Still, I’d prefer smite evil working just like Rage Powers, with different kinds of “rider” effects that are utilized with “Smite Points”. That would be mechanically more consistent, instead of the abilities of each class working on its own “subset” of game mechanics. IMO point pools are more elegant and easier to keep track of than tracking uses per day on your character sheet, but maybe that’s just me?
I suggest that the CHA bonus to AC when smiting is “cut”, and the bonus dice X half your level as you smite applies against *ALL* evil beings, but it progresses slower than Sneak Attack (i.e. +1D6 per every four levels you possess). Against evil undead and outsiders this damage could simply be maximized?
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Smite Evil (Su): ... Rather than the 1d6 per two levels, how about just increasing then bonus damage from 1hp per level to 2hp per level? This should keep the game moving along faster.
Despite what I just spoted above, I have to agree that it is actually better and faster than any "+X dice"-type of mechanic...
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Director of Game Design
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These changes do not affect the paladin chart in any way save one. The paladin currently is upgraded to "good" Will saves, meaning that her Will saves match her Fortitude saves.Hmm... So it's acceptable to increase one progression on the paladin chart...
Don't get your hopes up too high on this one.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I don't care for a permanent +x/+x to a paladin's hit/dmg as has been suggested, it takes away from the fighter too much.
I really want to be civil but this argument has been played out! The fighter is getting his fixes and they are GOOD! Even with a small bonus to hit/dam for a paladin this does not at all hinder the fighter. He will still be the man when it comes to consistent damage and AC. The paladin even with smites is not going to be able to touch him!
The paladin needs some form of slight hit/dam boost throughout his fighting day. Currently his martial side is not displayed with anything but smite. Though the changes to smite are GREAT! It is still only a VERY few times a day.
So please stop using the poor poor fighter excuse. he is a bad ass! Yea there are some things he can not do but when it comes to combat, he is still the man! I just want to be able to say, when it comes to fighting evil, the paladin is the man! Right now, yea he is good at it (MUCH better with these changes) but only a couple times a day.
We who want an always on mechanic are not asking for the baseline +6+8 that fighters can get ALL THE TIME! We just want something close to equivalent against evil. Im sorry, but that is not to much to ask.
I also love these changes to the Paladin's abilities; the Detect Evil upgrade is fantastic, and the Smite Evil giving both offensive and defensive bonuses, in addition to doing improved damage against undead and outsiders, is awesome.
I do, however, also agree with those who say that a lv. 20 Paladin's DR should work against evil. By the time a Paladin gets that high a level, most of the things it should be fighting against will be evil, and it kinda negates the purpose of it. I think that making the DR apply against ONLY evil creatures would be a great way to solve that.
In addition, I think a permanent +x/+x thing to a Paladin's to-hit versus evil would be a great change also. As the above poster pointed out, while the Fighter is supposed to be, and SHOULD be, the go-to man for the everyday combat situation, the Paladin is supposed to be the end-all, be-all when it comes to going toe-to-toe with undead and outsiders. A permanent to-hit/damage bonus vs. those creatures would be a very good step in making him exactly that.
Finally, those arguments in favor of a Paladin getting Mettle have a lot of merit, I think. Just as classes like the Rogue are the embodiment of agility, the Paladin is the embodiment of a person with absolute, unshakable faith, so I think giving them a class ability like Mettle is a fantastic reflection of that.
Overall, though, this is great! Has me itching to play a Paladin more than I ever did before.
I'm not offended. I never took part or read too much of those earlier discussions on this. I am hopefully not using what you call the poor fighter excuse.
I agree there could be something else available other than smite to aid in combat. I think the spells could fill this role. Don't remember if divine favor is on the paladin spell list, but a +3/+3 from a spell like that would go a long way here. Do you agree?
Love most of the changes, and the few things I might quibble over (such as the interaction between clerical channel energy and paladin channel energy) are minor, and have already been gone over by others. Since I already made one for the alternate rage and alternate animal companions, I threw together a PDF for the new paladin. Should make it easier to use without having to cross reference between Pathfinder, the SRD, and the new rules presented here.
The PDF for the new paladin can be found here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152853507/Paladin.pdf.html)
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I'm not offended. I never took part or read too much of those earlier discussions on this. I am hopefully not using what you call the poor fighter excuse.
I agree there could be something else available other than smite to aid in combat. I think the spells could fill this role. Don't remember if divine favor is on the paladin spell list, but a +3/+3 from a spell like that would go a long way here. Do you agree?
Another Standard Action and it's only +3/+3 after level 18 and easily dispelled...
At 20th level, the paladin with 22 CHA can (in theory) heal 960 (!!!) HPs per day, or deal the same amount as damage to undead. Comparing to 3E, that’s a *HUGE* boost, and I’m not sure I like it, because to me it feels like an overkill.
I feel the need to address this, since it is somewhat deceptive. In theory, you are indeed correct that a 20th level Paladin with 22 CHA (that's a rather high CHA though...) could heal 960 hit points per day, but that's assuming that he would roll all 6s on all his rolls. This is so incredibly unlikely as to be practically impossible. The probability of that happening is 1 in 6^160 which equals approximately 1 in 3.193 x 10^124 !! Yes, that's a more than 3 with 124 zeroes after it. Just for the sake of comparison, the observable universe is estimated to have approximately 10^80 atoms in it in total, which is many orders of magnitudes less than 3.193 x 10^124. We can safely say that a Paladin healing 960 hit points, even at 20th level and even with 22 Charisma, is impossible for all practical intents and purposes.
But here is the bonus: Even if it were somehow possible, it wouldn't be disastrous. Why? Because a typical 4-member 20th level party will have around 600 hit points (and that's assuming much, much lower Constitution scores than your assumption for the Paladin's Charisma), so the Paladin will not even be able to heal the party twice to full from a highly beaten-up state (and as I pointed out in the paragraph above, such amount of healing is practically impossible to achieve in practice).
One more thing to add: The total amount of healing per day only matters for the purposes of the length of the adventuring day of the party. The real place where healing can actually be broken is not total healing per day, but rather the amount of damage healed per round, since that matters in combat. In this regard, I think Channel Positive Energy (though not necessarily Lay on Hands) is indeed overpowered due to healing multiple targets at levels where it is not appropriate and have suggested depowering it to something more akin to "Cure ... Wounds" spells. That, however, is for another discussion. If you are interested in that: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/design/clericDruidPaladin/channelPositiveNegativeEnergyMoreUsesPerDayBut WeakerEffectPerUse
/hug roman
I have been trying to make the case for the over-powered nature of channel energy for quite a while now. It is heartening to see that I am not alone in the universe on this matter. Quite honestly, I have been feeling quite alone, as my thread on the subject has been less a considered discussion on the matter, and more a series of tirades by people making personal insults against me. Please take into consideration that I am currently playing a 9th level cleric with extra turning and selective channeling. I am generally as apt to err on the side of my own benefit as anyone else, but the magnitude of the power increase for clerics from channel energy has pushed me past my normal propensity for self-delusion where personal benefit is involved.
And I also completely agree with you that the paladin's LoH is far from over-powered, especially considering that the paladin has somehow fallen into the role of the second-best healer in PFRPG.
And I also completely agree with you that the paladin's LoH is far from over-powered, especially considering that the paladin has somehow fallen into the role of the second-best healer in PFRPG.
Not an attack on ya or anything, but why is this wrong? Paladins fit the healer role better then any class but a cleric, so I fail to see the issue.
I just want to say thank you Jason for all the time you are spending on each class to try and get them just right.
I like the changes presented here. I would prefer that the Mount still be summoned from somewhere else.
The two things I don't like about paladin right now are the caster level issue (and others have mentioned this already), and the weapon bond.
I would suggest changing the weapon bond to a full round SU action to use that can be used for paladin level rounds per day, with the ability to break those rounds up into increments as small as 1 round at a time. With it costing a full round action the paladin won't use it everytime or friously , however because he doesn't have to worry about getting the most out of it the once or twice he gets to use it he can use it more often.
Considering how long the mount sticks around and the fact he can buy a magic weapon already I don't see the weapon bond being that useful as is.
Jason, thank you so much for all your hard work on this game. On the whole it is wonderful.
That said, I have to go against the crowd and say I am not very satisfied with these changes. I had the misfortune of posting about this only two hours before you, so no one saw it. I think the paladin should be the hero who just refuses to lay down and die.
1. I too support Mettle.
2. I like the improvement to Lay on Hands, but I don't think it's right yet. I like the idea of tying it to channeling energy, but that seems to have created a lot of issues. I suggest reversing the relationship. Instead of spending LoH to channel, have each LoH heal more damage (d10's maybe?) and spend a Channel Energy use. Then the additional healing powers use up half the amount of Channel Energy uses as they have been LoH uses. That fixes the interoperability problems between paladin and cleric.
3. If smite is going to stay, PLEASE don't make it only truly effective against fiends and undead. It's tantamount to dictating what the paladin has to do with his career. Don't continue to trap paladins in the ghetto of demons and vampires. There are so many, many other iniquities in the world! I would much rather see something like a +1/+1 every four levels vs. evil.
4. Please fix the poor Paladin's spell power. In 2nd edition, he was actually a pretty effective divine caster. Fix his CL, and give him a better spell list. Let him have his spells sooner, or use them as swift actions. Something.
5. I agree with everyone that the damage resistance doesn't work. I would much rather see something like a divine armor bonus or slight damage resistance spread out over his levels like the fighter or barbarian. If it remains the same, it should be 10/good. That way evil has a harder time hurting him, but he has no special protection from the forces of heaven. (He shouldn't be fighting angels!)
And as far as another posters concerns about limiting the enhanced smite to undead and evil outsiders, it would be simplicity itself to create a "Dragon Slayer" feat, for example, that uses the enhanced version of the smite against dragons to create specialized paladins. Which is actually pretty cool.
You've got something there.
I think that any base Smite Evil ability needs to be equally effective across the board. Doomsday cult leaders, Unseelie faeries, orcish tyrants, and red dragons shouldn't get a break from the wrath of the righteous. If smite evil is only really good against undead and fiends, it's kind of like writing the ranger so her Favored Enemy HAS to be orcs. A ranger who wants to fight giants will always be at a disadvantage.
But add-on feats that enhance Smite against specific archetypal foes would be really great. They wouldn't even have to be about more damage. They could give useful secondary effects (like lower spell resistance) tailored to the type of foe. Turning Smite is a perfect example. It's a feat that enhances Smite with a secondary effect specifically tailored to undead.
Not an attack on ya or anything, but why is this wrong? Paladins fit the healer role better then any class but a cleric, so I fail to see the issue.
And I also completely agree with you that the paladin's LoH is far from over-powered, especially considering that the paladin has somehow fallen into the role of the second-best healer in PFRPG.
Because above all else the paladin should be the scourge of all that is impure, the nightmare of all things of our nightmares, the vanguard in the fight against great evil, not the rearguard in the fight against mediocre evil. But with the changes that Jason has outlined here, and maybe a tweak or 2 to them, I am fairly happy with the paladin at this point. Let him be the second-best healer in the game, as long as he is the absolute pinnacle of offense against evil. Why not, in 3.5e the druid was the 2nd best healer in the game, while at the same time being the pinnacle of summoning, a master of animal companions, beasts and plants, the second-best damage-dealing caster, and quite an effective melee combatant in his own right.
In other words, I am quite satisfied with the level of paladin healing as it stands, especially since he is more adept at healing himself in combat than at any other healing task, as it should be. A slight bit of catch-up in offensive power, and he will be perfect.
Couple of comments:
Detect Evil: Good change
Smite: Good change mechanically, but I would get rid of the offensive bonus, since smite ought to be offensive thematically.
Divine Bond/Mount: Excellent change - I have been houseruling away pokemounts for a long time now and it is good to see this in the core. I would recommend getting rid of the teleportation too, but it is in any case far better than the extradimensional horse of 3.X edition Paladins.
That said, I think Mount is the better choice of the Divine Bond pair, so the weapon could stand to be upgraded. Maybe, making it stackable with existing magical bonuses of a weapon would help. I would also suggest that the weapon be used as a conduit for the aggresive version of the Lay on Hands ability, as sort of an extension of the Paladin. Hence, a Paladin could hit with the weapon and expend a swift action to deal extra damage to undead. To prevent abuse, we could make this use of Lay on Hands (we can call it something else, say Holy Strike) cost two normal uses.
Alternate Paladin path: There is a very positive trend of giving classes at least two 'paths' along which they can advance. The Ranger can become the super-archer, or the super-dual-wielder, Sorcerers can chose bloodlines that differentiate them, Paladins have such a huge feat selection that they have effectively multi-path development and so on. One of the exceptions is the Paladin.
I think a similar approach would work well for the Paladin too. The Paladin is particularly tied to two social roles, that of the holy warrior and that of the mounted warrior (knight). At the moment, the Paladin is mechanically geared to being the holy warrior, but apart from the mount, does not receive any actual abilities that would help him in mounted combat.
Personally, I would welcome it if Paladin did receive such abilities. Since, gaining holy and mounted abilities might overpower him, it could be a better approach to let him have a choice of abilities at given levels, with some geared towards mounted combat and others towards holy combat. These need not be set path that are impossible to switch between once the Paladin choses one - he could just as easily be allowed mix and match the abilities depending on what he choses at what level. This kind of approach would, among other things, also help to differentiate Paladins of a given level from one another.
Please don't take the suggestions/criticisms to indicate I prefer the old rules, since that is not the case. Overall, I must say: Great stuff!
Demons have DR /Good. Yes this means that their biggest antagonists can get through it, but that's because their primary antagonists are the only ones motivated enough. It would be like complaining than werewolves who are fighting a werewolf-hunting cadre are gimped because said cadre has lots of silver bullets.
This is just how alignment-based DR works. Deal with it.
/hug roman
I have been trying to make the case for the over-powered nature of channel energy for quite a while now. It is heartening to see that I am not alone in the universe on this matter. Quite honestly, I have been feeling quite alone, as my thread on the subject has been less a considered discussion on the matter, and more a series of tirades by people making personal insults against me. Please take into consideration that I am currently playing a 9th level cleric with extra turning and selective channeling. I am generally as apt to err on the side of my own benefit as anyone else, but the magnitude of the power increase for clerics from channel energy has pushed me past my normal propensity for self-delusion where personal benefit is involved.
And I also completely agree with you that the paladin's LoH is far from over-powered, especially considering that the paladin has somehow fallen into the role of the second-best healer in PFRPG.
/hugs mbaven back
I was not aware of your attempts to correct channel energy's power level and have been trying to lead a lonely paladin-like crusade on this matter too. The distinction between healing per day and healing per round is the key issue there for me. I guess we can agree... to agree. :)
Note: Were Channel Energy to be depowered but usable more times per day, it would also open up the possibility of Channeling being a move action instead of a standard action (either as a default rule or as a feat), so that a Cleric (or perhaps even a Paladin) would be able to do other things then healing on his turn. This is something, however, that I would not be willing to grant unless Channel Energy was indeed depowered.
In any case, I too prefer the new Paladin presented herein to the old Paladin in the Beta rules.
I think the new Paladin rules as presented here will bring a new life to a class that was somewhat mired in mediocrity up until now, especially ironic as mediocre is the last thing a Paladin should be. My first reaction was a Paris-esque "that's hot!"
I agree with many of the points presented here and look forward to seeing what happens with this upgrade. It looks like a lot of fun. For one thing, I am sure I will see more Paladins around my table in the next few months than I have in the last couple of years.
Edit: Never mind I was simply being obtuse.. hehe
Smite: I like it. It's an improvement. I like that it's both offensive and defensive and lasts for a full round. Love the beats all DR.
Just in case anyone missed it:
At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of the smite increases by 1 round, to a total of 3 rounds at 16th level.
I assume the proposed Extend Smite or Extra Smiting feats are on top of that. Do you think such a feat could hold the charge when the smite misses, as others have proposed the paladin get for free?