[Design Focus] Paladin Upgrade


Classes: Cleric, Druid, and Paladin

401 to 450 of 1,070 << first < prev | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | next > last >>
Scarab Sages

minkscooter wrote:

Restrictions that give the paladin some latitude in how they are satisfied ought to be encouraged over restrictions that turn the paladin into a bot. For example, the shortest path restriction could be tweaked as follows:

When choosing a path to the enemy, the paladin may not choose a path that incurs fewer attacks of opportunity than the shortest path.

In other words, you can choose a longer path, but not for the purpose of avoiding attacks of opportunity.

Yes; I'd like to hope I could be allowed to run to the bridge, rather than take a running jump across a chasm...


Snorter wrote:
minkscooter wrote:

Restrictions that give the paladin some latitude in how they are satisfied ought to be encouraged over restrictions that turn the paladin into a bot. For example, the shortest path restriction could be tweaked as follows:

When choosing a path to the enemy, the paladin may not choose a path that incurs fewer attacks of opportunity than the shortest path.

In other words, you can choose a longer path, but not for the purpose of avoiding attacks of opportunity.

Yes; I'd like to hope I could be allowed to run to the bridge, rather than take a running jump across a chasm...

I thought that part was obvious enough that it didn't need to be said :-) Although now that you mention it, it might actually make sense to add that the paladin must attempt anything with a reasonable DC (anything the paladin could accomplish by taking 10) that would shorten the path in the same or less time (digging through solid rock would not qualify). Using the second revision:

"minkscooter wrote:


When choosing a path to the enemy, the paladin takes -1 to the bonus conferred by the oath for every attack of opportunity avoided on the chosen path that would have been incurred on the shortest path.

A chasm that could be reasonably jumped (but nevertheless entailing some risk) would reduce the paladin's bonus by 1 if she chose to take the bridge instead.

Scarab Sages

minkscooter wrote:
A chasm that could be reasonably jumped (but nevertheless entailing some risk) would reduce the paladin's bonus by 1 if she chose to take the bridge instead.

"My name is Inigo Montoya, and you killed my father."

"Prepare to dieeee
e
e
e
a
a
a
a
a
r
r
g
g
h
h
.
.
. .


Snorter wrote:
minkscooter wrote:
A chasm that could be reasonably jumped (but nevertheless entailing some risk) would reduce the paladin's bonus by 1 if she chose to take the bridge instead.

"My name is Inigo Montoya, and you killed my father."

"Prepare to dieeee
e
e
e
a
a
a
a
a
r
r
g
g
h
h
.
.
. .

Exactly what I was saying about role-playing opportunities! ;-)

Sovereign Court

eldrwyrm wrote:


Spontaneous casting is the providence of Sorc's and Bards. Leave it to them. In order for Paladins to be able to spontaneous cast, each would have to further narrow an already narrow selection to just a couple of viable spells. guess what, everybody will take the same spells and paladins will still be carbon copies. Only now they won't have any flexibility to change as the situation changes. I say leave the spell casting alone since it is comparable to other secondary caster classes and let's focus on the area where Paladins really need help.

Okay sorry to bring up something when we've moved on (the joys of having no internet at home so you can only post at work *rolls eyes*), but the bolded part makes absolutely no sense to me, what spells on the paladins spell list are so powerful that the list needs to be shortened. When classes like warmage get every spell on their list when they hit a new level of spells and they have a longer list, why can't the same be done for a paladin.

And as for rangers (the only other comparable half-caster) I've suggested improvements to their spellcasting as well. The only time I ever see either of these classes casting, was when they were casting splatbook spells or swift action spells. Other than a buff spell or two that the paladin would memorize anyways, I can't see a single spell on their list that would break the game or make the paladin too good. Their limited # of daily slots means that having access to their entire spell list (ala pre-existing classes) would only make their spellcasting more useful then the oft forgotten other than to cast bless weapon or a similar buff class feature it is now.

Guess what, if a paladin when needed could cast lesser restoration, or delay poison they'll get more utility out of the feature. I've never suggested giving them a limited spells known list, they should get access to all of their spells since their list has very few really worthwile spells that they are already memorizing. Then their casting would be worthwile.

There is no reason to limit a paladins spell list or give him fewer spells known. If they had a more powerful spell list, maybe, but since everyone seems to say they need better spells in their list that says to me they don't they just need to be able to cast those less useful spells WHEN THEY'D ACTUALLY BE USEFUL, where right now they might as well not be on the list.

If you can point out one spell on the paladins list that they aren't memorizing already but that would be too good for them if they were able to cast spontaneously, I'll drop this arguement.

Sovereign Court

As a side note, a cleric will be joining my game this monday. I've never played a class before the paladin that I have dreaded another class coming in before. I am sitting here typing depressed, because I know exactly what is going to happen, I'm about to become the reliquary character. In fighting I know (unless this guy intentionally doesn't do it) the cleric can outdo me. In spellcasting it never was even in doubt, but i'd like to at least think my spellcasting was useful for something other than saving the cleric from having to cast a buff spell on me (although I would be better off getting the cleric to do it since his will last longer and be stronger if based on level divine favor I'm looking at you and your +2 at level 12). So I've got nothing since our campaign has had so far not a single demon/undead. I'll still have a blast roleplaying my character, I have since the begining, but I'm dreading feeling mechanically second string.

Sovereign Court

Jason Nelson wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Fine then level 4 is crap. spontaneous casting and making channel energy its own ability again fixes the problem. wow that was a lot of arguing on your part to change nothing about what I said.

As for spontaneous casting, do you think it will fix the problem of 4th level. At best it's one spell. Handy, but not much to write home about. I could see spontaneous casting being very nice starting around 7th or 8th level, when you actually have a couple of spell slots to play with, but I don't see it helping much at 4th.

Yeah its one spell, but then if it's spontaneous casting, you get a lot more bang for your buck.

Take for example my last fight (also the first fight I had spellcasting). I originally memorized bless weapon having misread it and thinking it provided a +1 enhancement vs. evil creature (it doesn't it just act as if it did i.e. the weapon is magic for bypassing DR) I knew what we were going to fight didn't have DR so that would have been a wasted spell if my DM hadn't allowed me to change it since I misread it. Instead I memorized divine favor.

Now I actually had a lot of different choices that I knew might come in handy, these things had poison, so lesser restoration could've been handy, protection from evil if the big ones turned out to have a higher attack bonus and could reliably hit me. But if neither of us got poisoned (we both have very high forts) or if my AC was enough (which it turned out to be) then those spells would've sat unused. Therefor I just went and memorized the buff and cast it first round. Had I been able to cast spontaneously I might have held that spellslot to see how things went in combat, It may not seem like much, but that ability to choose would have felt like a big difference, even if I wound up just casting divine favor anyways. It wouldn't have given me any huge boost in power that I can see. and would differentiate my spellcasting from a clerics.

Maybe feeling like I have that kind of choice means more to me than it does to others, but I think it would've been great and I can't really think of any real reason not to have it. Can you? I don't really think it puts that much more emphasis on his spellcasting.

Either way it either needs to be changed to full spellcasters level or spellcasters level - 3. This half caster level stuff makes them too weak in the long run.

Sovereign Court

lastknightleft wrote:
eldrwyrm wrote:


Spontaneous casting is the providence of Sorc's and Bards. Leave it to them. In order for Paladins to be able to spontaneous cast, each would have to further narrow an already narrow selection to just a couple of viable spells. guess what, everybody will take the same spells and paladins will still be carbon copies. Only now they won't have any flexibility to change as the situation changes. I say leave the spell casting alone since it is comparable to other secondary caster classes and let's focus on the area where Paladins really need help.

Okay sorry to bring up something when we've moved on (the joys of having no internet at home so you can only post at work *rolls eyes*), but the bolded part makes absolutely no sense to me, what spells on the paladins spell list are so powerful that the list needs to be shortened. When classes like warmage get every spell on their list when they hit a new level of spells and they have a longer list, why can't the same be done for a paladin.

And as for rangers (the only other comparable half-caster) I've suggested improvements to their spellcasting as well. The only time I ever see either of these classes casting, was when they were casting splatbook spells or swift action spells. Other than a buff spell or two that the paladin would memorize anyways, I can't see a single spell on their list that would break the game or make the paladin too good. Their limited # of daily slots means that having access to their entire spell list (ala pre-existing classes) would only make their spellcasting more useful then the oft forgotten other than to cast bless weapon or a similar buff class feature it is now.

Guess what, if a paladin when needed could cast lesser restoration, or delay poison they'll get more utility out of the feature. I've never suggested giving them a limited spells known list, they should get access to all of their spells since their list has very few really worthwile spells that they are already memorizing. Then...

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

lastknightleft wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Fine then level 4 is crap. spontaneous casting and making channel energy its own ability again fixes the problem. wow that was a lot of arguing on your part to change nothing about what I said.

As for spontaneous casting, do you think it will fix the problem of 4th level. At best it's one spell. Handy, but not much to write home about. I could see spontaneous casting being very nice starting around 7th or 8th level, when you actually have a couple of spell slots to play with, but I don't see it helping much at 4th.

Yeah its one spell, but then if it's spontaneous casting, you get a lot more bang for your buck.

Take for example my last fight (also the first fight I had spellcasting). I originally memorized bless weapon having misread it and thinking it provided a +1 enhancement vs. evil creature (it doesn't it just act as if it did i.e. the weapon is magic for bypassing DR) I knew what we were going to fight didn't have DR so that would have been a wasted spell if my DM hadn't allowed me to change it since I misread it. Instead I memorized divine favor.

Now I actually had a lot of different choices that I knew might come in handy, these things had poison, so lesser restoration could've been handy, protection from evil if the big ones turned out to have a higher attack bonus and could reliably hit me. But if neither of us got poisoned (we both have very high forts) or if my AC was enough (which it turned out to be) then those spells would've sat unused. Therefor I just went and memorized the buff and cast it first round. Had I been able to cast spontaneously I might have held that spellslot to see how things went in combat, It may not seem like much, but that ability to choose would have felt like a big difference, even if I wound up just casting divine favor anyways. It wouldn't have given me any huge boost in power that I can see. and would differentiate my spellcasting from a clerics.

Fair enough.

The gross utility of the feature is more with more slots, but the feeling of utility is actually the opposite, and it feels more critically important to the usefulness of your casting ability when you have fewer slots.

Sovereign Court

Jason Nelson wrote:

Fair enough.

The gross utility of the feature is more with more slots, but the feeling of utility is actually the opposite, and it feels more critically important to the usefulness of your casting ability when you have fewer slots.

I'm glad we moved past that argument, We both agree he needs boosting, getting caught up in the semantics of why was just hurting the already long discussion. Just so you know, the reason I was getting so frustrated is because I know you think the class needs boosting, so having an argument as to why was bothering me when we could have spent that time discussing how. Now that it's all past I understood where you were coming from, it was just bothering me because I didn't see a point to the argument in the first place.

And thank you for saying that because it really is exactly what I was trying to say quite succinctly. because I do agree that it does make more difference when you do have more to throw around.

Anywho, I know you're not a big fan of the idea, but I haven't seen you try to make any counterpoints to the idea of it being overpowered or putting too much emphasis on the paladins spellcasting. Do you have any or do you agree with me that it doesn't but that it's just not what you want for the paladin?


Hi guys, I hate to interrupt, but nobody answered me earlier.

What's the trouble with Targets/Day on smite? It seems like a pretty good solution to me in play.


I would prefer Targets/day.
The problem could be solved by only using a Usage when a Smite HITS,
but that necessitates tracking Rounds. Targets/day feel simpler.

BTW, does anybody know when the actual changes to the Classes will be released?
When ALL the Classes are done & before the Combat Chapters are seen to?
That would seem preferable, so that Combat & Feats can be reviewed with the actual classes in mind...?

Sovereign Court

I've said that there wasn't a problem with it, I just don't like the feel of it. I want smites to be a round of wailing on one guy for big damage, that's how I envision smites. Mechanically I have no qualms, it would work, just not what I want, I won't fight against it though if that's where jason goes, I'll just keep making my suggestions.

Dark Archive

lastknightleft wrote:
Okay sorry to bring up something when we've moved on (the joys of having no internet at home so you can only post at work *rolls eyes*), but the bolded part makes absolutely no sense to me, what spells on the paladins spell list are so powerful that the list needs to be shortened. When classes like warmage get every spell on their list when they hit a new level of spells and they have a longer list, why can't the same be done for a paladin.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The way the spontaneous casting rules are written, the caster has to choose just a few spells that they can cast from the overall list. I'm not talking about shrinking the list, I'm talking about the fact that Paladins would have to select 4 or 5 spells/level from the available list. It's a pretty fair bet that every Paladin will take Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, and Lesser Restoration for 1st level spells. Thus, every paladin ends up taking the most broadly useful spells, and loses access to the little bit of utility they do have.


toyrobots wrote:
Hi guys, I hate to interrupt, but nobody answered me earlier.

Read.

toyrobots wrote:


What's the trouble with Targets/Day on smite? It seems like a pretty good solution to me in play.

What trouble are you referring to? There are other things to fix besides smite.

Scarab Sages

eldrwyrm wrote:
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The way the spontaneous casting rules are written, the caster has to choose just a few spells that they can cast from the overall list. I'm not talking about shrinking the list, I'm talking about the fact that Paladins would have to select 4 or 5 spells/level from the available list.

That's the way bards and sorcerors work, but it doesn't have to be the only way spontaneous casters work.

The fact that those are arcane casters means their spells are deemed more powerful than divine casters. There's also the issue that bards are supposed to be 'dabblers', and have other areas of interest (BAB, high skill points and bardic music), so limiting their spells known is required.

Clerics and Druids use spontaneous casting (albeit one spell of each level), and have full access to their whole list, these lists being far longer than the Paladin list.

If full spontaneity feels like too much, how about a half-way system, like the Cleric or Druid, in which the paladin prepares as normal, from the full list, but at each gain of a new spell level, he picks several spells of that level (maybe=non-buffed Cha bonus?), that he can always default to, just like clerics and druids do with cure/inflict/summon nature's ally? And maybe allow a re-shuffle of lower-level defaults whenever a higher level of spells is gained?


Man this has turned into a good discussion! I think the people left here who actually care about the paladin are almost all on the same page or close to it! Isnt this the last day that Jason will be viewing these boards? I just want to compile a short list of what I have been reading.

Good Will Save: Absolutely no arguments here, this choice was meant to be!

Channel energy: Jason Nelson proposed a GREAT idea about this one (could someone link, my computer skill is no good!). I like that one a lot and would love to see the change made. A few also want it to be separate from LoH.

Lay on Hands: I think everyone likes this except for the ones who want it separate from CE.

Spells and caster level: If CL was made paladin lvl -3 and he gained spontaneous casting from the whole list, I think the argument would be done here.

Smite Evil: Just make this paladin level X2 or make it paladin lvl x1 +1D6 per 2 levels. Then leave everything the same or do the targeting idea of Robert Brambley (I like this idea now). But yes, take away the "bonus" to damage against undead and evil outsiders, lump it all into one.

Mettle: I just had to plug this again. Yes (Jason Nelson im looking at you) I have not read "Mettle" from some splat book, but the concept is what I am going for and that seems to be the name everyone knows it by. Something like the monk's or rogue's evasion that uses the paladin's will save. Makes so much thematic sense...i just cant explain.

Bonded Weapon/Shield: This is another of Jason Nelson's ideas and I love it, please make this happen in some form. And I think it should be a combination of both.

Always on: Okay, MANY MANY of us want this in some form. At this point I dont care if it is Lightbringer (what I mentioned on the first day of the paladin debate) or Divine Might (Robert Brambley's idea) Or the new proposal I made of +1/+1 for each remaining smite of the day (I really like this one too) or even the Oath idea. Something along these lines needs to happen, I think 99% of the posters here want it, and it is not overpowered...to many play tests have supported this.

Ok, thoughts? If you like how I have summed something up please just list the name and say "Yes please Jason, this does it! this makes us happy and fixes the paladin!" HAH, or just yes :) If I said something wrong or forgot something please add it guys.


minkscooter wrote:


What trouble are you referring to? There are other things to fix besides smite.

Oh, thanks minkscooter. I missed that, obviously.


Taking a step back: Last session the paladin player gave the new rules a run through, but the only thing that really came up (given that he missed on his smite and only has one attack) is that his AC was boosted by +3 due to his charisma, which was a factor in his foe missing him on his foe's turn.

His first comment was that at least he didn't feel like the smite was a total waste.

He was also very fond of the move action detect evil. He was just concerned because he wanted to make sure he still had access to the "standard" detect evil beyond the quick version. He said it felt much more useful to not have to stare at someone and give them the creeps for three rounds, even outside of combat.

Sovereign Court

eldrwyrm wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
Okay sorry to bring up something when we've moved on (the joys of having no internet at home so you can only post at work *rolls eyes*), but the bolded part makes absolutely no sense to me, what spells on the paladins spell list are so powerful that the list needs to be shortened. When classes like warmage get every spell on their list when they hit a new level of spells and they have a longer list, why can't the same be done for a paladin.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The way the spontaneous casting rules are written, the caster has to choose just a few spells that they can cast from the overall list. I'm not talking about shrinking the list, I'm talking about the fact that Paladins would have to select 4 or 5 spells/level from the available list. It's a pretty fair bet that every Paladin will take Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, and Lesser Restoration for 1st level spells. Thus, every paladin ends up taking the most broadly useful spells, and loses access to the little bit of utility they do have.

Um there are no rules as written for spontaneous casters, there are examples from other classes, the sorcerer and bard, but then there are examples from other sources also in 3.5 that we can also follow. Warmage, and a few others, I don't have my books with me. I agree that if we make his spellcasting like the bards or the sorcerers that nothing would change, my argument is that I want his spellcasting to reflect the later classes (after all, pathfinder is supposed to make it possible to run the core classes alongside them and not be underpowered) and be like the warmages, when he gets access to a new level of spells, he has available every spell on his list to cast. That's actually the beauty of the paladin's increadably limited spell list, is that it makes that possible and opens up absolutely no chance for abuse.

Scarab Sages

Or for those who balk at full spontaneity, see my suggestion, four posts up...^


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hi there all,

I have been working for a while on a number of upgrades to the paladin.

Other thoughts?

Please Give him an always on AC boost. Perhaps a sacred Bonus based on 1/2 his Charisma. Perhaps at level 4 or 5. (since he has to boost both strength and Charisma there's not much left to boost the dex...or int).

And give him bonus feats like the Ranger at level 2, 6 & 14.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


If the creature hit by a paladin using smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype or undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to 1d6 points of damage per two levels the paladin possesses (minimum +1d6) and the damage automatically bypasses any DR the creature might possess.

I love this It makes sence. But a level 5 ranger / level + fighter with Favored Enemies undead and evil outsider would actualy be better att kicking Undead and evil outsider than a Paladin and the ranger would have his bonus to attack and damage always on"

Also the AC Bonus the Paladin get when smiting should be sacred.

But I really love the new Paladin... Yes give him (and the ranger) spontaneous Casting, and a casterlevel at Paladin level -3.

Sovereign Court

TomJohn wrote:


But I really love the new Paladin... Yes give him (and the ranger) spontaneous Casting, and a casterlevel at Paladin level -3.

Actually I would prefer the ranger stay memorization (they're wis based) but have an ability that shortens the casting time of their spells by an action. i.e. full round becomes standard, standard becomes swift, swift becomes immediate. Then each caster feels different, has their own niche, and matches the spellcasting-stat used paradigm.


lastknightleft wrote:
TomJohn wrote:


But I really love the new Paladin... Yes give him (and the ranger) spontaneous Casting, and a casterlevel at Paladin level -3.

Actually I would prefer the ranger stay memorization (they're wis based) but have an ability that shortens the casting time of their spells by an action. i.e. full round becomes standard, standard becomes swift, swift becomes immediate. Then each caster feels different, has their own niche, and matches the spellcasting-stat used paradigm.

Nice Point

:-)


And make the caster level paladin level -3 (same for Rangers).
a) the Paldin (and Ranger) needs it.
b) I just hate it when another class pick one level paladin (or ranger) just to get access to wands. If it's Class level -3 then the paladin (or ranger) don't get acess to the spell list until level 4.
I'm I wrong here?


Asgetrion wrote:


At 20th level, the paladin with 22 CHA can (in theory) heal 960 (!!!) HPs per day, or deal the same amount as damage to undead. Comparing to 3E, that’s a *HUGE* boost, and I’m not sure I like it, because to me it feels like an overkill.

Is this a joke?

Comparing a 20 lvl Palidin to a 20 lvl Cleric is like comparing a 20 level warrior to Fighter.
A 20 level can cast at least 4 mass heal / day. IN a party of 6 players he would heal 1500 HP per rounds. In 4 rounds he would heal 6 000 HP. In a party of 10 it would add up to 10 000 HP.
And with a wisdom score at 28 and the healing domain....hey it's 6 mass heal / day.

And sniffin a little Incense of Meditation he would the continue to cast his level 8 spells, Cure Critical Wounds, Mass. In a 6 people party that's 52 HP * 6 Each round = 320 HP / round.
...and then the level 7 spells
And then the level 6 spells
and then......

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

toyrobots wrote:

Hi guys, I hate to interrupt, but nobody answered me earlier.

What's the trouble with Targets/Day on smite? It seems like a pretty good solution to me in play.

I've come around to being okay with it, though I still don't love it. My reservation is more around the paladin not being as good at cleaning up armies of evil mooks, or even groups of evil tough guys.

Targets/day works fine when you fight one or a handful of evil leader-type guys each day.

Targets/day doesn't work so well when you have to mow through a half-dozen minotaur barbarians in your first encounter, then a trio of vrocks in your next, then then a glabrezu with pack of fiendish megaraptor "watchdogs," and then another half-dozen minotaur barbarians led by a minotaur blackguard riding a half-fiend gorgon, all BEFORE you finally get to the minotaur lich and his marilith consort at the end of the adventure.

You do targets per day, and not only do you never smite the rabble, but you also never smite the modestly tough mid-level antagonists, and you may even avoid smiting the tough lieutenants, cuz you're saving your smite for the REAL big bad guys.

So if you are a 12th level paladin with 4 smites a day, whom do you smite in the above? Obviously you hope to have saved two smites to use on the final two bosses, but what about the rest of the evil meat in between? That's a lot of hacking.

Plus, here's the unspoken problem I have with targets/day: What if somebody else kills your target?

I'm a paladin, I declare smite on the glabrezu. Does that mean everybody else should back off and concentrate on the fiendish megaraptors so I can get the most out of my smite?

Say I declare smite on the glab and charge him and get in one good attack. Then one of my allies charges in and with spell, sword, or whatever wipes him out. Or even several of my allies. Clearly the glabrezu is the most dangerous threat of the monsters in that encounter; everyone else in the party would be tactically smart to gang up on him, and by the time it's my turn again my smite is over cuz my targeted enemy has already been toasted.

That's my concern about the problem with targets/day of smite.

The solution I proposed was to have two kinds of smite, one of which gave you a level-based bonus to attack/damage that lasted for a minute, so you could use that to clean up on large groups.

The second was the focused smite that you could use to whale on one particular tough leader-type.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Snorter wrote:
eldrwyrm wrote:
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The way the spontaneous casting rules are written, the caster has to choose just a few spells that they can cast from the overall list. I'm not talking about shrinking the list, I'm talking about the fact that Paladins would have to select 4 or 5 spells/level from the available list.

That's the way bards and sorcerors work, but it doesn't have to be the only way spontaneous casters work.

The fact that those are arcane casters means their spells are deemed more powerful than divine casters. There's also the issue that bards are supposed to be 'dabblers', and have other areas of interest (BAB, high skill points and bardic music), so limiting their spells known is required.

Clerics and Druids use spontaneous casting (albeit one spell of each level), and have full access to their whole list, these lists being far longer than the Paladin list.

If full spontaneity feels like too much, how about a half-way system, like the Cleric or Druid, in which the paladin prepares as normal, from the full list, but at each gain of a new spell level, he picks several spells of that level (maybe=non-buffed Cha bonus?), that he can always default to, just like clerics and druids do with cure/inflict/summon nature's ally? And maybe allow a re-shuffle of lower-level defaults whenever a higher level of spells is gained?

Hmmmm... that's an interesting notion.

Sort of a "prayer mastery" type of ability. You prepare as normal, but every level gain some that are defaultable.

OR, you could just establish a set list of spells that all paladins can default to (1st level probably bless weapon & divine favor), so you could prepare other spells but you could always swap them out for the spells that you most commonly would use.

Another possibility is to use the "spirit shaman" system, wherein you have access to the whole list potentially, but each day you select a handful of the spells on your list from each level, and you can spontaneously cast from that mini-list that day. The next day when you prepare, you can shuffle your mini-list. Today my mini-list is bless wpn, div favor, endure elements, and lesser restoration, tomorrow it's Prot-evil, detect poison, detect undead, and CLW.

I dunno, I could get with spontaneous casting as I've said before, cuz I don't think any of the paladin's spells are so gamebreaking and because the paladin gets so few spells and at such a relatively high level before he gets them. I don't know if it's critically necessary but it would help. Ditto for the ranger.

Here's another notion to consider:

By spending a channel energy attempt (or an LOH attempt if you prefer), a paladin can spontaneously cast a spell. The economy of that is generally a bad deal in the current model of 1 CE costs 2 LOH, but it would set a simple economy for swapping spells.

Sovereign Court

They are good ideas, I still think the simplest easiest to implement is to just give him full access spontaneous casting though. Second to that would be the spirit shaman idea.

I'm not a fan of adding yet another thing that burns your channel energy uses, I'm pretty sure if jason re-splits them they'll be back at 1+cha mod again and thus to terribly limited a resource to want to have yet another power fueled on them.


Snorter wrote:
If full spontaneity feels like too much, how about a half-way system, like the Cleric or Druid, in which the paladin prepares as normal, from the full list, but at each gain of a new spell level, he picks several spells of that level (maybe=non-buffed Cha bonus?), that he can always default to, just like clerics and druids do with cure/inflict/summon nature's ally? And maybe allow a re-shuffle of lower-level defaults whenever a higher level of spells is gained?

Snorter, I think this is a cool idea but....

IMO the spellcasting system is complex enough without creating a hybrid spontaneous/ memorized system. I deal primarily with a group of players who are new to the game and this sort of system would really F* with their heads.

Memorized plus spontaneous XXX where XXX is one single effect is reasonably easy to lay down to them. Your hybrid system would be cool if the game were all advanced players but... lets have a little mercy on the new guys :)

I would much prefer the Paladin just became a sort of divine sorcerer where he picks a set of spells or just casts from the whole list and goes from there.


Jason Nelson wrote:

The solution I proposed was to have two kinds of smite, one of which gave you a level-based bonus to attack/damage that lasted for a minute, so you could use that to clean up on large groups.

The second was the focused smite that you could use to whale on one particular tough leader-type.

I don't follow the paladin stuff closely because it's not something I play much... so I missed when you first mentioned this. That said, this is a cool idea. Burn 1 smite to smack the daylights out of 1 evil dude *or* burn 1 smite to gain a smaller bonus against a herd of evil dudes. Very cool idea.

Liberty's Edge

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:

The solution I proposed was to have two kinds of smite, one of which gave you a level-based bonus to attack/damage that lasted for a minute, so you could use that to clean up on large groups.

The second was the focused smite that you could use to whale on one particular tough leader-type.

I don't follow the paladin stuff closely because it's not something I play much... so I missed when you first mentioned this. That said, this is a cool idea. Burn 1 smite to smack the daylights out of 1 evil dude *or* burn 1 smite to gain a smaller bonus against a herd of evil dudes. Very cool idea.

I must have missed this, too, Jason. Sorry for that.

I digress - this is a great idea the more I think of it.

The only mechanical difference I would prefer seeing is for the "duration" smite to be:

1 Round + 1 round per CHA mod (as opposed to a minute), providing +CHA mod to hit, Paladin level to damage, and CHA Mod to AC as deflection or sacred bonus.

Then using smite as a one time attack - which can be done in conjunction with the duration or not, doing an additional +1 and +1/3 levels after 1st (4th, 7th, 10th) to hit, and 1d6/2 paladin levels of holy damage.

The last part of this would have to be a greater pool of daily smites, like 1+CHA mod at first level and 1 addtional per three levels after 1st (as the progression on the chart).

The latter mechanic is definitely "Smite Evil" and you can call the previous function: "Holy Avenger" "Divine Might" "Heroic Stand" or something to that effect - it just USES one of the daily smites to enter that duration - the change of the name only for the purpose of not confusing players and DMs when you say, "I'm smiting evil" (hmmm....which version do you mean...?)

Robert

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Jason Nelson wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hmmm.. the opponent based smite is interesting to me, and it certainly extends the paladin's ability, even at low levels. The one thing I am trying to avoid here is the obvious level dip, but with abilities based off the paladin's level, that should not be a problem.

I am going to give this some serious thought.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Count me among those who at first really did not like the "smite vs. opponent" concept, but I have warmed up to it as I've thought more about it.

"Have at the, Smaug the Mighty, today thou shalt taste the righteous wrath of Iomedae! One shall stand and one shall fall! Chaaaarge!"

It certainly brings home the model of the paladin being the sworn foe of mighty dragons, evil high priests, and any number of other bad guys out there.

It has a downside in being far less useful when you're up against a gaggle of smaller foes, or even just a squad of equally tough bad guys.

Perhaps this is the happy medium: Smite Evil should give you a choice of one of two effects:

A. A sacred bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and AC vs. all evil foes. The smite lasts 1 minute and gives you a +1 bonus, +1/5 levels.

This would be your go-to smite when you are up against a gaggle of evil mooks or a group of relatively equal-toughness baddies.

B. Get your CHA bonus to AC and attack rolls and damage bonus of 1d6/2 levels (min 1d6) vs. one designated foe. Smite could last 1 minute, or until you defeat that enemy (or next sunrise or some other thematic expiration if you like).

This is your "nail the BBEG" smite of choice.

You could have them overlap, or you could have them stack, but I doubt that either is going to be juicy enough at levels 1-3 to have any drawing power whatsoever as a dip.

I can see the notion of not having one class ability that does two different things, but just call it a different application of the same. A focused smite vs. a general smite or some such.

This is your "nail the BBEG" smite of choice.

You could have them overlap, or you could have them stack, but I doubt that either is going to be juicy enough at levels 1-3 to have any drawing power whatsoever as a dip.

I can see the notion of not having one class ability that does two different things, but just call it a different application of the same. A focused smite vs. a general smite or some such.

By the way, for giggles, one simple alternate-smite mechanic, if anyone cares to bother reading yet one more:

Spoiler:
A notion that just occurred to me was a fairly simple one:

1. Smite gives no bonus to hit.

2. You declare smite on a successful hit, so it NEVER fizzles (unless your target turns out not to be evil).

3. Bonus damage is equal to paladin level, doubled vs. anything with an aura of evil (evil clerics, evil outsiders).

4. Use it 1+CHA at 1st level.

Of course, this is only "alternate smite system #2,735" so feel free to ignore.


Here was the suggestion I was talking about that got buried back on page 5 (around post #210 or so of this thread), just FYI for anyone who's interested.

I like the idea of the smite having a static duration of 1 minute, whether it's the "vs. everybody" or "vs. one BBEG" version. CHA already is fueling your attack roll bonus (and under some varieties # of times per day). It doesn't need to affect every part of the power. On top of that, decoupling the ability from a stat makes it more reliably useful as a class ability at 1st-3rd levels, the trouble spot for paladins.

A similar idea I dropped about 50-some posts later, for those who think 1 minute as a flat duration is too long, was this:

Add bonus to damage = channel energy dice (i.e., 1d6/2 levels, min 1d6) to evil creatures for a number of consecutive ATTACKS equal to your CHA bonus, damage doubled vs. creatures with [evil] subtype (which is pretty much evil outsiders, evil clerics, and blackguards). If you miss, boo hoo, you got plenty of chances, EVEN AT LOW LEVEL.

b. Add sacred bonus of +1 to attack/dmg/AC vs. evil (+1/5 levels) for ROUNDS = CHA bonus.

And yes, you can use both kinds of smite at the same time. And yes, they are sacred and inspire courage is morale so you can triple-dip, and you can use the morale vs. anybody not just vs. evil.


Jason Nelson wrote:
toyrobots wrote:

What's the trouble with Targets/Day on smite?

I've come around to being okay with it, though I still don't love it. My reservation is more around the paladin not being as good at cleaning up armies of evil mooks, or even groups of evil tough guys.

<snip>

Plus, here's the unspoken problem I have with targets/day: What if somebody else kills your target?

<snip>

The solution I proposed was to have two kinds of smite, one of which gave you a level-based bonus to attack/damage that lasted for a minute, so you could use that to clean up on large groups.

The second was the focused smite that you could use to whale on one particular tough leader-type.

Since smite originally applied only to a single hit, the targets/day idea doesn't make it any worse against groups. I'm used to the idea of declaring a smite just before rolling to hit, so the extra juice when the target fails to drop just felt like bonus to me. I think the idea of smite lasting a whole round (and two or three at higher levels) was simply to give you multiple chances to hit, mitigating the whiff problem that so many were complaining about. (That might have been solved by making smite hold the charge until the first hit, but then the "charge" feels more like a spell than a smite.) The chance to hit more than once is just that extra bit of fan service I think, although I'm not sure it was intended to widen the scope of the smite. The alternate usage you're suggesting feels more like a spell.

So the targets/day idea feels more right to me (as long as it's not implemented as a day-long grudge), because it's closer to the original idea (a single hit), and I still declare the smite just before I roll to hit, with only the target of that hit in mind.


Some quick questions folks - I think I got lost in the 'fast-and-heavy' on the last page. =)

I've downloaded the paladin upgrade PDF and read through it, and gone over it with my lone paladin player... who had a question or two that I can't answer (and don't see answers to in the thread here after some looking), so, in the time-honored tradition of seeing what others think....

1) The revision states that the paladin's mount can be 'called to them' once a day. Where is it outside of that? The revision doesn't state, so it could be anyplace from wherever it was last left to a celestial plane. Is there some hint of designer intent that I've missed in reading?

2) Can they send it back when they're done, or is it now stuck wherever they are until called again? Can they, at 9th level, use their second daily summons to send it back, or is the transport one-way only?

3) Would it be possible to put some thought into mounts suitable for urban paladins? Warhorses are all well and good, but they don't do much for you in a back alley in Absalom, or a crowded street where they're not even going to fit. I'm not sure what can be done about it to be honest - at least not for human-sized characters, anyway, although I can see several possibilities for, say, halfling, dwarf, or gnome paladins beyond the boar and dog listed just on the animal companion revision list.

Thanks!


Wow. I step away from the boards for a couple of days to clear my head and this discussion explodes. I just have a few quick comments.

Vult, while I haven't been in favor of the always on smite I do like your +1 hit/dam per remaining unused smite, especially if it is limited to evil opponents. I think its the fact that it works off of the existing smite ability that sells me on it.

As for targeted smites, I suggested something like that somewhere in one of these threads. The chance of the target getting dropped by the rest of the party after the Paladin lands one good hit is no worse than the chances of the only/last evil opponent in the fight getting dropped right after the Paladin activates one of their daily uses of the current smite or not being able to get into position to capitalize on it after the first target drops.

As for spontaneous casting, the only issue I have (and discussed in the thread about this subject) is the number of additional non-core spells. There really should be a limit to the number they have "readied" for spontaneous casting each day, even if it is the current number of Paladin spells in core.

Divine Bond extending to shield I love. It reminds me of the Champion class from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.


One question:
Would new smite evil work with ranged and melee touch attacks?


lastknightleft wrote:


Okay sorry to bring up something when we've moved on (the joys of having no internet at home so you can only post at work *rolls eyes*),

Okay sorry to bring up something when some of you moved on (the joys of having a life and a family *rolls eyes*)

;-)

eldrwyrm wrote:


Spontaneous casting is the providence of Sorc's and Bards. Leave it to them. In order for Paladins to be able to spontaneous cast, each would have to further narrow an already narrow selection to just a couple of viable spells.

No, the Paladin would not have to further narrow an already narrow selection. You can't compare the paladin to the bard, or the Sorcerer, nor can you compare him to the Warmage or the Beguiler.

The Paladin needs all his spells and he needs to cast 'em spontaneous. He uses charisma to cast spells so spontaneous casting makes sence.
.....well make sense or not. Tha class needs it (just as the ranger need some change).

lastknightleft wrote:


Guess what, if a paladin when needed could cast lesser restoration, or delay poison they'll get more utility out of the feature. I've never suggested giving them a limited spells known list, they should get access to all of their spells since their list has very few really worthwile spells.

yes, yes, yes. :-)

And make the caster level equal paladin level or paladin level - 3. A Resist Energy at level 10 with a caster level of 5 really suck. But caster level 10 would be nice and a cater level of 7 would be OK.


Freesword wrote:

Wow. I step away from the boards for a couple of days to clear my head and this discussion explodes. I just have a few quick comments.

Vult, while I haven't been in favor of the always on smite I do like your +1 hit/dam per remaining unused smite, especially if it is limited to evil opponents. I think its the fact that it works off of the existing smite ability that sells me on it.

As for targeted smites, I suggested something like that somewhere in one of these threads. The chance of the target getting dropped by the rest of the party after the Paladin lands one good hit is no worse than the chances of the only/last evil opponent in the fight getting dropped right after the Paladin activates one of their daily uses of the current smite or not being able to get into position to capitalize on it after the first target drops.

As for spontaneous casting, the only issue I have (and discussed in the thread about this subject) is the number of additional non-core spells. There really should be a limit to the number they have "readied" for spontaneous casting each day, even if it is the current number of Paladin spells in core.

Thanx for coming back Freesword. I think the +1/+1 for every remaining smite is really the way to go. Some do not like the flavor of it but it really is the simplest way and does give a pretty good advantage.

I like the targeted smite for the fluff that "you can run but you can not hide!" So just because I missed you 20 times, you are still there so I am still going to crush you when I stop rolling 2's and 3's! I think this target thing should definitely be added and it should last either till the end of combat, or I prefer, till the end of the day.

With spontaneous casting I see no reason to lower the paladin spell list or number of spells per day more. He already has a SMALL list and a FEW spells per day. What is it like 4 or 5 per spell level a day with a high Charisma? And none of these spells are game breakers. Just make it spontaneous casting from the whole list and be done with it, its simple and it works.

Thats all ive gotta say. I hope Jason really gave this thread a good read. I know I have read every post and I think we have come up with some amazing solutions. Solutions that could make us all happy and in th end really resolve the paladin issues that have been around since they tried (and failed) to balance the classes (this I know from reading the histories others have posted).


Mum-Rob the Ever-Living wrote:
Some quick questions....

Sorry you didn't get an answer to your question earlier, but you should avoid re-posting.

Mum-Rob the Ever-Living wrote:


1) The revision states that the paladin's mount can be 'called to them' once a day. Where is it outside of that? The revision doesn't state, so it could be anyplace from wherever it was last left to a celestial plane. Is there some hint of designer intent that I've missed in reading?

My understanding is that the mount's location obeys the laws of nature except when the paladin summons the mount. The point is that the mount no longer disappears after the summoning timer expires, so there's no need to summon it again unless the paladin leaves it somewhere.

Mum-Rob the Ever-Living wrote:


2) Can they send it back when they're done, or is it now stuck wherever they are until called again? Can they, at 9th level, use their second daily summons to send it back, or is the transport one-way only?

No, you can't send it back (if I understand correctly). I expect you can tell it to run off. I can imagine cases where you might want to send it back. That's an advantage of the celestial mount.

Mum-Rob the Ever-Living wrote:


3) Would it be possible to put some thought into mounts suitable for urban paladins?

I thought horses fit. Anyway, the upgraded version sounds flexible enough to do what you want.

I assume you read the original post, which gives good clues to the designer intent. Here were some other reactions in this thread:

Jason Nelson wrote:
As for the mount, I like it a lot. I will like it even more if paladins have an improved mount feat to get tooty-frooty mounts (pegasi, unicorns, griffons, dragons, etc.), but you've indicated they probably will, so I'm good with that.
lastknightleft wrote:


I like it, I also love that you can summon it more than once per day. I can't wait to see what feats you have for improving mounts
Abraham spalding wrote:
I like the changes presented here. I would prefer that the Mount still be summoned from somewhere else.
Phouka wrote:
In particular, I like the new mount rules. It has never made sense to me for a Paladin special mount to be some temporary thing that shows up for a few hours a day and then vanishes until some time the next day. For that reason, I have never considered taking a mount. Implementing the new rules would make me reconsider that.
Lord Aerthos Pendragon wrote:
As far as the mount, I think it makes sense to have it roaming the celetial planes. If the weapon bond is a celestial spirit, why wouldn't the mount be celestial as well? Just seems to make sense for me.
Velderan wrote:
As for the steed, please keep it the way it is. We really really don't need the pokemount back.

Scarab Sages

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Snorter, I think this is a cool idea but....

IMO the spellcasting system is complex enough without creating a hybrid spontaneous/ memorized system. I deal primarily with a group of players who are new to the game and this sort of system would really F* with their heads.

Memorized plus spontaneous XXX where XXX is one single effect is reasonably easy to lay down to them. Your hybrid system would be cool if the game were all advanced players but... lets have a little mercy on the new guys :)

LOL

Yeah; I've had players like that...

I agree, I'm OK with them being spontaneous casters, using the full list. That suggestion above was a possible compromise, to throw a bone to those who would have an aneurysm at the thought of paladins not setting their spells in stone at the crack of dawn.

It further rewards the character for having high Cha. Using that variant, not only do they get bonus spells, but a more flexible list. There comes a point at which the stat gives diminishing returns. An 18 Cha gives you all the bonus spells you'll ever get, most of the spells are buffs or cures, so increasing the save DC is not as relevant. You're making your saves on 2+. Social skills get better, but paladins don't get the skill points to abuse the game, like a Diplomancer Bard/Rogue. By contrast, a melee-type with less M.A.D. could have maxed his Str, and get a pay-off round after round.

Scarab Sages

I'm more and more on board with the paladin being a spontaneous caster, and not just because Cha is now the casting stat, like Bard or Sorceror.

It's a given that the only way to ensure a decent score in Str and Cha (in point-buy) is to dump something else. He will have to keep Dex and Con high (or at least average), so that only leaves Int and Wis.
Much as it's a cliche to have the 'Dudley Do-Right' paladin, or the 'unthinking zealot', it's just unavoidable that most will not be overly studious, and are unlikely to have maxed out their Spellcraft.

As such, I think it's wrong to expect them to understand the nature of their spell-casting, or plan what they will need for the coming day. They are less likely to view their spell-slots like a wizard, as complex jigsaw pieces that fit a grand plan, but rather as a finite amount of 'favours' that they feel confident in calling in, trusting to their divine patron/cosmic force/celestial guardian to pick the appropriate effect for the current situation.

Sovereign Court

Snorter wrote:

I'm more and more on board with the paladin being a spontaneous caster, and not just because Cha is now the casting stat, like Bard or Sorceror.

It's a given that the only way to ensure a decent score in Str and Cha (in point-buy) is to dump something else. He will have to keep Dex and Con high (or at least average), so that only leaves Int and Wis.
Much as it's a cliche to have the 'Dudley Do-Right' paladin, or the 'unthinking zealot', it's just unavoidable that most will not be overly studious, and are unlikely to have maxed out their Spellcraft.

As such, I think it's wrong to expect them to understand the nature of their spell-casting, or plan what they will need for the coming day. They are less likely to view their spell-slots like a wizard, as complex jigsaw pieces that fit a grand plan, but rather as a finite amount of 'favours' that they feel confident in calling in, trusting to their divine patron/cosmic force/celestial guardian to pick the appropriate effect for the current situation.

Thanks snorter that is a very succinct way of putting it.


Snorter wrote:

I'm more and more on board with the paladin being a spontaneous caster, and not just because Cha is now the casting stat, like Bard or Sorceror.

It's a given that the only way to ensure a decent score in Str and Cha (in point-buy) is to dump something else. He will have to keep Dex and Con high (or at least average), so that only leaves Int and Wis.
Much as it's a cliche to have the 'Dudley Do-Right' paladin, or the 'unthinking zealot', it's just unavoidable that most will not be overly studious, and are unlikely to have maxed out their Spellcraft.

As such, I think it's wrong to expect them to understand the nature of their spell-casting, or plan what they will need for the coming day. They are less likely to view their spell-slots like a wizard, as complex jigsaw pieces that fit a grand plan, but rather as a finite amount of 'favours' that they feel confident in calling in, trusting to their divine patron/cosmic force/celestial guardian to pick the appropriate effect for the current situation.

I didn't care either way, however that's the best argument for it I have ever seen

Scarab Sages

<glee>


Snorter wrote:

I'm more and more on board with the paladin being a spontaneous caster, and not just because Cha is now the casting stat, like Bard or Sorceror.

It's a given that the only way to ensure a decent score in Str and Cha (in point-buy) is to dump something else. He will have to keep Dex and Con high (or at least average), so that only leaves Int and Wis.
Much as it's a cliche to have the 'Dudley Do-Right' paladin, or the 'unthinking zealot', it's just unavoidable that most will not be overly studious, and are unlikely to have maxed out their Spellcraft.

As such, I think it's wrong to expect them to understand the nature of their spell-casting, or plan what they will need for the coming day. They are less likely to view their spell-slots like a wizard, as complex jigsaw pieces that fit a grand plan, but rather as a finite amount of 'favours' that they feel confident in calling in, trusting to their divine patron/cosmic force/celestial guardian to pick the appropriate effect for the current situation.

You know, I was pretty dubious about Paladin's getting spontaneous casting before, but I have to admit, that's a really good argument for it. It just.. fits.

Scarab Sages

<double-glee>


Snorter wrote:

I'm more and more on board with the paladin being a spontaneous caster, and not just because Cha is now the casting stat, like Bard or Sorceror.

It's a given that the only way to ensure a decent score in Str and Cha (in point-buy) is to dump something else. He will have to keep Dex and Con high (or at least average), so that only leaves Int and Wis.
Much as it's a cliche to have the 'Dudley Do-Right' paladin, or the 'unthinking zealot', it's just unavoidable that most will not be overly studious, and are unlikely to have maxed out their Spellcraft.

As such, I think it's wrong to expect them to understand the nature of their spell-casting, or plan what they will need for the coming day. They are less likely to view their spell-slots like a wizard, as complex jigsaw pieces that fit a grand plan, but rather as a finite amount of 'favours' that they feel confident in calling in, trusting to their divine patron/cosmic force/celestial guardian to pick the appropriate effect for the current situation.

Another "at-a-boy" for this post. Damn fine job good sir!

Sovereign Court

I'm waiting for snorter to have a gleeslposion now

*sits and watches in case Snorter Gleeslpodes*

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Freesword wrote:

Wow. I step away from the boards for a couple of days to clear my head and this discussion explodes. I just have a few quick comments.

Vult, while I haven't been in favor of the always on smite I do like your +1 hit/dam per remaining unused smite, especially if it is limited to evil opponents. I think its the fact that it works off of the existing smite ability that sells me on it.

As for targeted smites, I suggested something like that somewhere in one of these threads. The chance of the target getting dropped by the rest of the party after the Paladin lands one good hit is no worse than the chances of the only/last evil opponent in the fight getting dropped right after the Paladin activates one of their daily uses of the current smite or not being able to get into position to capitalize on it after the first target drops.

I would disagree with this, to the extent that if you have multiple bad guys out there and you activate the current "paladin upgrade" smite (lasting 1-3 rounds), then even if your allies whack the guy you intending to smite, you can still attack the other bad guys on the board. If there is only one target, then naturally there is no real difference.

The targeted smite is no real come-down from the old 3.0/3.5/original Beta smite (1 smite = 1 attack on 1 target), cuz there was no duration to speak of, but I think the direction of smite is going towards it having some kind of duration, and that is what provoked my concern about the targeted smite's duration becoming a nonfactor if the target gets whacked.

401 to 450 of 1,070 << first < prev | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / Design Forums / Classes: Cleric, Druid, and Paladin / [Design Focus] Paladin Upgrade All Messageboards