Anything the Paladin can do, the Cleric can do better. That seems to be the general consensus and I agree. I think a simple fix to help distinguish the Paladin as more the holy warrior and the cleric less so would be to make the clerics armor proficiency limited to medium armor. While obviously not everything that needs to be done, it would further emphasize the Martial aspect of the Paladin and bring the Cleric closer to other spell casters. The Druid is alread limited to Medium armor, why should a cleric be able to wear heavy armor?
I agree on the loss of heavy armor.
At least somebody agrees with me. I dont seem to get many replies on this forum. It just seems to me that at least in my play group, there is always one martial cleric. But only once someone has taken the mantle of Paladin, and they were disappointed when they did so. Taking the cleric to medium armor is a small step, and then improving the Paladin as suggested in other threads, by improving smite evil, and maybe combining their lay on hands with their channel energy ability, seems all steps in the correct direction.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Anything the Paladin can do, the Cleric can do better. That seems to be the general consensus and I agree. I think a simple fix to help distinguish the Paladin as more the holy warrior and the cleric less so would be to make the clerics armor proficiency limited to medium armor. While obviously not everything that needs to be done, it would further emphasize the Martial aspect of the Paladin and bring the Cleric closer to other spell casters. The Druid is alread limited to Medium armor, why should a cleric be able to wear heavy armor?
Yup, I'm in the bag for cleric = medium armor.
I'm in with the cleric becoming less of a martial powerhouse, it seems like anything anyone can do the cleric can do better. They can out fight fighters, they can out paladin paladins, and they can do all this while wearing heavy armor, and casting more spells. No they don't have quite as many offensive options as wizards, or sorcerers, but they still have some and these options are generally good. Taking heavy armor off their list isn't that big of a deal (they can always pay the feat tax and get it back) and would start to help pull them back a little.
I'm not a big fan of taking stuff away from classes over all I've just felt that since 1st edition that clerics had it better than anyone else. I truthfully always liked the cloistered cleric that was presented in Unearthed Arcana and thought it was a slightly better way to go then the normal cleric was.
I can definitely support this idea.
Although I seriously doubt it will happen, I'll put my vote in for this. Honestly I wouldn't care if Clerics went down to friggin light armor, they'd still buff themselves into powerhouses, but I know most people wouldn't go for that
But at least they would have to expend some additional resources to buff themselves into powerhouses. Or they could just take the feats but again that means spending resources.
On another thread we talked about making exchanging Heavy and/ or Medium armor proficiency for a domain which I also like.
It would be really nice to see the cleric defined as the healer buffer type and the paladin the fighting evil in the streets guy.
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Although I seriously doubt it will happen, I'll put my vote in for this. Honestly I wouldn't care if Clerics went down to friggin light armor, they'd still buff themselves into powerhouses, but I know most people wouldn't go for thatBut at least they would have to expend some additional resources to buff themselves into powerhouses. Or they could just take the feats but again that means spending resources.
On another thread we talked about making exchanging Heavy and/ or Medium armor proficiency for a domain which I also like.
It would be really nice to see the cleric defined as the healer buffer type and the paladin the fighting evil in the streets guy.
Exactly, which is why I could care less if they got dropped down to light armor, stay with me here Ogre you're having a slow day :P
Exactly, which is why I could care less if they got dropped down to light armor, stay with me here Ogre you're having a slow day :P
Man you're bein' mean today. I was agreeing with you. *snif*
I don't think that this is the right way to distinguish them, as I don't think that the cleric's defensive abilities are the part that should be reduced.
If anything, the cleric's offensive martial abilities should be toned down. And with the changes to divine power, that has already started.
In fact, there's people complaining that the new divine power is too weak.
I don't think that this is the right way to distinguish them, as I don't think that the cleric's defensive abilities are the part that should be reduced.
If anything, the cleric's offensive martial abilities should be toned down. And with the changes to divine power, that has already started.
In fact, there's people complaining that the new divine power is too weak.
I understand your point, but I think this will tone down their martial abilities. While it doesn't handicap their BAB it does reduce their effectiveness slightly as they will be less likely to wade into combat. If he would want to be as effective in combat as he was before, he'd have to expend a feat, or use a spell slot to cast a buff on themselves. Its the only way to directly effect their martial effectiveness without reducing their BAB which I think is fine where it stands. As far as reducing their diving power thats a different argument. I'm mostly ok with where they are at.
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Although I seriously doubt it will happen, I'll put my vote in for this. Honestly I wouldn't care if Clerics went down to friggin light armor, they'd still buff themselves into powerhouses, but I know most people wouldn't go for thatBut at least they would have to expend some additional resources to buff themselves into powerhouses. Or they could just take the feats but again that means spending resources.
On another thread we talked about making exchanging Heavy and/ or Medium armor proficiency for a domain which I also like.
It would be really nice to see the cleric defined as the healer buffer type and the paladin the fighting evil in the streets guy.
again i would have to begin :P
while i accept the idea of medium armor... i do like when people think on the cleric as nothing but a healbot
what about the evil gods without paladins? how they fight good?
or the neutral ones?
the Paladin is a holy warrior... but it should be something unique, powerful, yet restrictive... a friend of mine uploaded a prestigue class which i find its quite good... and no its not overpowereded... the assasin can do Death attacks all day long an no one complains...
In fact, there's people complaining that the new divine power is too weak.
that is why use the one from 3.0 :P
I understand your point, but I think this will tone down their martial abilities. While it doesn't handicap their BAB it does reduce their effectiveness slightly as they will be less likely to wade into combat. If he would want to be as effective in combat as he was before, he'd have to expend a feat, or use a spell slot to cast a buff on themselves. Its the only way to directly effect their martial effectiveness without reducing their BAB which I think is fine where it stands. As far as reducing their diving power thats a different argument. I'm mostly ok with where they are at.
i do must remembers you that when the fighter is down (andyou can't heal him at a distance) the one who needs to go forward to bring him back or patch him up is the cleric (even if i don't like healbots)
it would be fun to hear the fighter call for "mediiiccc!! i mean Cleriiiicccc!!!!" and the cleric answering "sorry pal, juststay there until the fight is over... the moment i go in there i will be mashed potatoes... i am no help being in little pieces, you know?"
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Exactly, which is why I could care less if they got dropped down to light armor, stay with me here Ogre you're having a slow day :PMan you're bein' mean today. I was agreeing with you. *snif*
I know that, but it sounded like you were explaining why it's a good thing too me, I know that's just the forum making it difficult to understand intent. Here, have a donut. I know you didn't get one earlier for the +2 to smite blunder. Does that make you feel better? Now run along you scamp.
while i accept the idea of medium armor... i do like when people think on the cleric as nothing but a healbot
I did say healer/ buffer but in general horrible use of words and assumption on my part.
Clerics have plenty of things they can do besides run around healing everyone, even without heavy armor they have plenty they can do with their arsenal of spells. In general clerics spellcasting power is in Buffing, Protection, and Healing and to a lesser extent: Summoning, Battlefield Control and Utility. They also have those awesome anti-undead/ healing powers.
I just think clerics should be casters first and auxiliary warriors... and paladins the other way around. Having paladins that are weak warriors and clerics that are moderately weaker but can self buff (mostly with minutes or hours/ level spells) to be much better in melee is IMO a poor structure.
the Paladin is a holy warrior... but it should be something unique, powerful, yet restrictive... a friend of mine uploaded a prestigue class which i find its quite good... and no its not overpowereded... the assasin can do Death attacks all day long an no one complains...
To be honest I didn't really read much of your friends paladin PrC because Jason and James have made it very clear that the 11 core classes are here to stay so there is no point in debating a dead topic IMO. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but personally I'm here to talk about the beta and where it's going and I know for a fact that it isn't going to have a PrC paladin.
while i accept the idea of medium armor... i do like when people think on the cleric as nothing but a healbotit would be fun to hear the fighter call for "mediiiccc!! i mean Cleriiiicccc!!!!" and the cleric answering "sorry pal, juststay there until the fight is over... the moment i go in there i will be mashed potatoes... i am no help being in little pieces, you know?"
So are you for or against the change in armor proficiency? I personally think their is enough mass healing/channel energy to heal a fighter screaming medic! although it would make for an interesting situation. But honestly, medium armor wont be so hindering as to stop a Cleric from participating in melee, they just wont be super fighter, and super spellcaster. Im hoping at least Jason maybe considers making a change as I would really like to see a firmer line drawn between which class is actually the martial and which is more the divine side of the holy warrior.
The similarities between the Paladin are mostly flavor. Sure, both classes wear heavy armor. And both classes have positive energy and spells. But said similarities peter out pretty quickly after that.
Paladins are built to focus on their mount or their weapon bond to hold at the front lines. They have a higher BAB (which means more attacks), better HP, and smite abilities. They bolster allies with Auras. A Paladin's healing is used as a secondary boost, not as their primary purpose, except in extraordinary situations.
Clerics have a much larger spell list of buff spells and healing. They channel positive energy more efficiently. They can be built to be front-line fighters, but are never going to match well-built Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins in this endeavour. They have lower BABs and HPs. Their special abilities are tied into their domains.
Reducing the cleric's armor capacity would simply make clerics easier to hit. They'd be required to put more of their healing capacity to keep themselves standing. With their lower BABs and HPs, they're already not going as effective in defending against combat manuevers or resisting attacks. Why make this even more pronounced?
If a Cleric is required to use feats to overcome this weakness, it means they have even fewer feats to use to focus on weapons and defenses. Martial clerics would be far too costly and rarely seen. Instead, Clerics would be reduced to the MMO model of sole support casters.
I appreciate that Paladins are meant to be holy warriors and Clerics are meant to be priests. But limiting their abilities to fit with the flavor notions also limits the possibilities available to unique character models and builds.
The problem is that this opens a whole can of worms, as this works for the Lawful Good types but then you have no martial option for all the other alignments/gods, unless you turn the paladin into a Holy Warrior class that's genericized for any alignment. (Which might be a good idea, I'm just saying, that's a big change that would have to be made if you make the cleric less martial).
I think that another possible option is to really stress the Lawful Good and the restrictions, and make the paladin a lot better on paper. It does kinda suck compared to the cleric now. But it should be *better* than the cleric, with all those old harsh restrictions on no evil acts ever, poverty, etc. added back in.
I'd like to see a paladin that in terms of the power of his abilities is clearly the most powerful class, but all that comes at the cost of being a real goody two-shoes. Dust off the 1e and 2e pally restrictions. No more than 10 magic items, tithe, lose your powers temporarily for chaotic acts and permanently for evil acts, have to atone even if you did evil when enchanted. You get loads of power but are such a wiener you can't use it all the time.
I really cant agree with this one. While the idea is sound it is the same problem all over again. To make the paladin "look" better we make another class weak? I dont like that idea. To make the paladin better we should just make the paladin better.
This is what a lot of people have been doing within the paladin changes they present. A lot of people want to give up melee ability for more casting, that is wrong too! The paladin already gives up enough, let him stand on his own.
So while I agree maybe Clerics should not have heavy armor, I dont like the idea that we have to balance the playing field by making clerics weaker (even though it is a very slight change).
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So are you for or against the change in armor proficiency? I personally think their is enough mass healing/channel energy to heal a fighter screaming medic! although it would make for an interesting situation. But honestly, medium armor wont be so hindering as to stop a Cleric from participating in melee, they just wont be super fighter, and super spellcaster. Im hoping at least Jason maybe considers making a change as I would really like to see a firmer line drawn between which class is actually the martial and which is more the divine side of the holy warrior.
while i accept the idea of medium armor... i don't like when people think on the cleric as nothing but a healbotit would be fun to hear the fighter call for "mediiiccc!! i mean Cleriiiicccc!!!!" and the cleric answering "sorry pal, juststay there until the fight is over... the moment i go in there i will be mashed potatoes... i am no help being in little pieces, you know?"
i know :P
i was exagerating, my cleric has scale mail and she is the 1st one in the line of combat... in part because her goddess say so (Iomedae) also because besides her the only melee combatants are the Paladin and the Wizard (yes wizard with necromancy as his specialty, good dex, shield and quite decent touch attacks)but aye at least me i will be happy up to Breastplate... i know Gorum cleric's would not be happy since their ceremonial garb is black plate armor with spikes
I did say healer/ buffer but in general horrible use of words and assumption on my part.
Clerics have plenty of things they can do besides run around healing everyone, even without heavy armor they have plenty they can do with their arsenal of spells. In general clerics spellcasting power is in Buffing, Protection, and Healing and to a lesser extent: Summoning, Battlefield Control and Utility. They also have those awesome anti-undead/ healing powers.
I just think clerics should be casters first and auxiliary warriors... and paladins the other way around. Having paladins that are weak warriors and clerics that are moderately weaker but can self buff (mostly with minutes or hours/ level spells) to be much better in melee is IMO a poor structure.
no worries, i understand, just to much people viewing the cleric as the healbot makes me cranky... just not having coffee in the mornings :P
the Paladin is a holy warrior... but it should be something unique, powerful, yet restrictive... a friend of mine uploaded a prestigue class which i find its quite good... and no its not overpowereded... the assasin can do Death attacks all day long an no one complains...To be honest I didn't really read much of your friends paladin PrC because Jason and James have made it very clear that the 11 core classes are here to stay so there is no point in debating a dead topic IMO. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but personally I'm here to talk about the beta and where it's going and I know for a fact that it isn't going to have a PrC paladin.
yeah i do understand that part...
i am a bit sure theywill move it to 3.5 offopics one of this days...still we think that the paladin deserves a bit more respect, and the feeling of him being special... not just rank and file, like you could muster armies of paladins in few days...
i know players classes are supposed to be uncommon... but they are sometimes too common.... asn as someone mentioned... the paladin is degraded to be 'not as good' as the fighter or 'inferior' as the cleric
benefits they are secundary healer, being able at will to heal wounds for a while (lay on hands and later... a lot later channel positive energy) and heal alots of diseases...
they fight betterthan the cleric but doesn't have the featsto do the most of it... and his abilities versus "evil" are just lacking...
i know they are working in it... i just miss the old paladin (2nd edition) when the paladin could say he was 'special' not only because of his powers and restrictions (it was one of the most powerful classes) but because not everyone could get the requisites...
once i played as one, i also had one paladin player...
it was fun and cool
now everyone could be a paladin, they just aren't because is suboptimal :S, not just the alignment restriction
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just because it will be to long to answer each individual message
Brother Willi
Ernest Mueller
Vult Wrathblades
i agree with the 3 of you
the Paladin needs to be made better, without taking the hit in other classes, as someone mentioned the cleric needs protection because he needs to be moving around enemies to do his/her job, some gods may ask towield different kind of armor, but we can just do that by rules in the base book.
still Jason promised to have a re-writen version of the paladin... lets see what he does of him...
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!
Having Seen the new Paladin (which I mostly like) it still does no change my opinion on what the Cleric should be capable off. The Cleric should be a capable melee combatant but a master healer. I do not think that he should be stuck only healing but I don't see why a cleric who is not a dedicated fighter should wonder around in Plate mail. Since I read that Jason was still going to review this area of playtest for a week this is my last push to get this change. I think the motivation behind this idea was misinterpreted. While it was designed to distinguish the Paladin and Cleric it wasnt as much the Paladin was weaker as it was the Cleric is to strong compared to other classes.