Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Why dont we give the Fighter one of these abilities
*Morning training- after resting, the Fighter may reassign any one feat at first level after 30 minutes of practice. The Feat stays fixed until he reassigns it (as per gaining it), he gains the ability to do this for two feats at 10th level and three at 20th
This is actually a very interesting ability, because it neatly balances the fact that casters get to reconfigure their class abilities (i.e., spells) every day with 1 hour of preparation time in the morning.
Why shouldn't the fighter be able to do that too?
Honestly, is this going to break something?
I understand that feats represent a certain level of tricks and special skills that you have learned, and there is a certain logic to "you trained in THIS, and so THIS is the thing you know." But by that logic all spellcasters should be sorcerers/favored souls with a very narrow spell list, because that is all they trained in.
So, for the fighter, he couldn't retrain all of his feats, but why not let a fighter reassign his [Combat] feats at the beginning of each day?
Heck, try this on for a class ability:
Martial training (Ex): Fighters are masters of many forms of combat and gain one bonus feat with the [Combat] descriptor at first level, plus another [Combat] feat at every even-numbered level. These feats are chosen with level advancement, but each day, a fighter may spend one hour of combat practice and exchange one or more [Combat] feats he has selected from martial training for different [Combat] feats for which he meets the prerequisites. A fighter may exchange a number of feats equal to his Intelligence bonus (to a minimum of 1) plus one for every 5 fighter levels.
In addition, a fighter can spontaneously exchange one [Combat] feat as a swift action. This ability can be used once per day per 5 fighter levels.
I really like this idea for several reasons:
1. It helps to get around the one-trick-pony nature of many fighter builds, because you can CHANGE the build. You're going to be out riding the range, exchange for some mounted feats. Going to be fighting a bunch of mooks, pick up Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack (along with the prereqs). Monsters with reach, go Spring Attack. Flying enemies, go for ranged combat feats. Find yourself stranded and robbed of your equipment, go for unarmed combat.
Casters can already do this by preparing spells focused on the targets they intend to fight. Why not open this up to fighters?
2. It opens up the presupposition that the fighter is a master warrior. It's assumed that a fighter has already practiced ALL of the standard suite of combat skills. He has certain favorites that he practices all the time, and those are his usual feats. With some time and effort, though, he can sharpen his skills in other areas he hasn't used in a while and lets the feats he doesn't need at the moment lag a bit.
3. It also helps us avoid the "ooh, we just found a really neato super magic weapon/armor/dingus but my character will never use it because he's uber-specialized only in Mondavian dire scythe. Off to the grinder with you!" phenomenon. You find an awesome new toy, the fighter practices a day or three to readjust his feats and now he's really good at the new thing too.
3a. An objection here could be the tight association of weapon and identity (I'm a dwarf and I use an axe!). Well, nothing is forcing anyone to change their feats. If you have a build you love, stick with it.
3b. Another object could be that "fighters train all their lives to be masters of the Mondavian death scythe! This ability would let any fighter be just as good as them in a couple of days."
And your point is?
A wizard could come across a spellbook he's never seen, find a new spell he's never cast before, nor even heard of, read magic, prepare it, and cast it just as well as the mage who INVENTED the spell and has been casting it for years. A new splatbook can come out and a cleric can whistle up a new spell that previously didn't exist in the game world, and it works just as well as the SRD standards that have been there all along.
Again, here is the essential distinction between the Fighter and the Warrior NPC class:
The Warrior is the NPC mook who has trained in a SOME forms of combat skills and can be reasonably effective at them.
A Fighter is the badass PC master of the battlefield who has studied and practiced ALL forms of fighting. The ones he continues to practice (maintain as feats), he excels at, but he has a high enough baseline level of skill that he can focus his attention at brushing up and bringing up to speed other fighting skills to where he can use them at peak effectiveness (exchanging feats).
Thoughts?
My name is Grognar Ork Slayer and I support this idea.
Excellent idea here both the original thought, and your expansion of it Jason. At first glance it looks like it would make for characters that change all the time but I like your analogy with the wizards and clerics.
Things like weapon focus become more transitory... which is actually fairly realistic. Keep in mind that the fighter's Weapon Training will mean that he is still better within a specific class of weapon than other weapons but he can transfer his expertise in the longsword to the bastard sword or vice versa.
Very cool idea. I like it a lot.
Neat in theory, unlikely in practice.
I wouldn't mind seeing a feat exchange akin to sorcerer's spells known exchange, but I don't really dig the swift action "I'm forgetting something in combat to learn something else." It's illogical.
I'd be all for a "temporary feat" power for fighters, such as a feat that allows you to use any combat feat you meet the requirements for for 1 round 1/day.
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I disagree with even that, although I did like the original ideaNeat in theory, unlikely in practice.
I wouldn't mind seeing a feat exchange akin to sorcerer's spells known exchange, but I don't really dig the swift action "I'm forgetting something in combat to learn something else." It's illogical.
I'd be all for a "temporary feat" power for fighters, such as a feat that allows you to use any combat feat you meet the requirements for for 1 round 1/day.
Why dont we give the Fighter one of these abilities
*Morning training- after resting, the Fighter may reassign any one feat at first level after 30 minutes of practice. The Feat stays fixed until he reassigns it (as per gaining it), he gains the ability to do this for two feats at 10th level and three at 20th
I could get behind the ability to train for an hour in the morning and switch one feat out for another. Keep in mind if you want to rebuild completely all you have to do is take a few days worth of training, which makes more sense while still giving the fighter more options to find what works best for him. Also allowing him to get cool new weapons from BBEG and not be worthless with them because he never got feats for a sythe, or dire flail etc.
I have to say I think this is an awesome idea.
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I agree, it is a neat idea. You can ignore it and play the fighter as built (read: simple) or really get some bang for your class levels.
There should definitely be a level-based mechanic, perhaps something along the lines of changing 1 feat per 4 fighter levels. And make it clear they can only swap out fighter bonus feats.
I get a real "Wheel of Time" vibe from this. Lan is always practicing different styles.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Neat in theory, unlikely in practice.
I wouldn't mind seeing a feat exchange akin to sorcerer's spells known exchange, but I don't really dig the swift action "I'm forgetting something in combat to learn something else." It's illogical.
Eh, call me 'gamist' on this if you must. I like it as a resource exchange and don't worry too much about whether it's logical. The idea is just for the fighter to be able to respond to an unexpected situation.
The 'sorcerer's exchange' could work as well in terms of a gradual rebuild, in a specific direction, but I think it accomplishes fewer of the desired goals of flexibility and adaptability. YMMV.
I'd be all for a "temporary feat" power for fighters, such as a feat that allows you to use any combat feat you meet the requirements for for 1 round 1/day.
I think that could work as well. I'd probably allow more uses per day as you went up in levels, with the additional note that you could in theory spend several uses at once to get a feat with prereqs. Still only lasts a round, but if you want to spend 3 uses to get PA-Cleave-Great Cleve or Mounted-Ride-by-Spirited Charge or whatever combo for 1 round, I think that is all to the good.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I agree, it is a neat idea. You can ignore it and play the fighter as built (read: simple) or really get some bang for your class levels.
There should definitely be a level-based mechanic, perhaps something along the lines of changing 1 feat per 4 fighter levels. And make it clear they can only swap out fighter bonus feats.
I had it as Int bonus (min 1) + 1/5 levels, and did stipulate it was ONLY for exchanging [Combat] feats. In fact, I actually went a little further, stipulating that it was only [Combat] feats FROM the "martial training" class ability, which in this case would be the name of the fighter class ability that gives the bonus fighter feats at 1st level and every even level.
So, it's not just that fighters get "bonus feats." The bonus feats are PART OF a class ability (like a ranger's combat style). If for some reason they take [Combat] feats with their regular slots, those ones would be hard-wired just like everybody else's and not part of the "martial training" exchange.
I could see both sides on it, and just making it ANY [Combat] feat would be easier, but I was trying to be specific and explicit in designing the class ability.
I get a real "Wheel of Time" vibe from this. Lan is always practicing different styles.
Ooh, nice reference. I hadn't thought of that but it fits perfectly with the concept. Guess I need to practice a little "Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose" and "River Undercuts the Bank" today... ")
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I understand where you guys are going with this, however I honestly think that the first idea was the one that would appeal to the highest majority of players (i don't think the simulationists would be too happy with the fighter gaining any once per day powers although technically even the first suggestion is a once per day, but is worded in a way that it makes sense.
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Martial training (Ex): Fighters are masters of many forms of combat and gain one bonus feat with the [Combat] descriptor at first level, plus another [Combat] feat at every even-numbered level. These feats are chosen with level advancement, but each day, a fighter may spend one hour of combat practice and exchange one or more [Combat] feats he has selected from martial training for different [Combat] feats for which he meets the prerequisites. A fighter may exchange a number of feats equal to his Intelligence bonus (to a minimum of 1) plus one for every 5 fighter levels.
In addition, a fighter can spontaneously exchange one [Combat] feat as a swift action. This ability can be used once per day per 5 fighter levels.
Great idea, Jason!
Although I really don't like the spontaneous switching of feats. Call me a "simulationist", but that stretches believability too much, IMO. And it then it raises the question of why can't everybody (besides clerics & druids) spontaneously switch class abilities (and even the cleric & druid can only spontaneously switch to one type of spell, not a whole list of them).
I understand your reasons for including that part of the ability, but if something like that were to be adopted, I'd like to see some sort of limitation. Like, for example, (off the top of my head) the fighter can pick one feat per level that he may spontaneously switch to. This limits the number of "spontaneous" feats he has access to, but still allows him to do something, and he gets more "somethings" the more skilled he is. It's more complicated, but it does make the fighter's choices more important.
And a swift action seems kinda quick to me. Why not a move, a standard, or even a full-round action?
Other than those quibbles, I'm behind this idea (almost) 100%!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I understand where you guys are going with this, however I honestly think that the first idea was the one that would appeal to the highest majority of players (i don't think the simulationists would be too happy with the fighter gaining any once per day powers although technically even the first suggestion is a once per day, but is worded in a way that it makes sense.
Are there any "once per day" fighter feats any more? I'm not able to think of any in the SRD, but I should recheck the PF feats cuz I'm not sure.
And, as an aside to lastknight left, Rob, and any others who didn't really like that part of the idea: The 'spontaneous swap' idea was kind of an add on. I like it, but it's peripheral to the core idea.
The key thing is the fighter being able to change one or a few fighter feats per day, in order to be able to tailor their capabilities to the foes and challenges expected to be faced, much as casters are able to do.
THAT is the part that I would love to see incorporated as a fighter class ability.
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I agree, it is a neat idea. You can ignore it and play the fighter as built (read: simple) or really get some bang for your class levels.
There should definitely be a level-based mechanic, perhaps something along the lines of changing 1 feat per 4 fighter levels. And make it clear they can only swap out fighter bonus feats.
I had it as Int bonus (min 1) + 1/5 levels, and did stipulate it was ONLY for exchanging [Combat] feats. In fact, I actually went a little further, stipulating that it was only [Combat] feats FROM the "martial training" class ability, which in this case would be the name of the fighter class ability that gives the bonus fighter feats at 1st level and every even level.
So, it's not just that fighters get "bonus feats." The bonus feats are PART OF a class ability (like a ranger's combat style). If for some reason they take [Combat] feats with their regular slots, those ones would be hard-wired just like everybody else's and not part of the "martial training" exchange.
I could see both sides on it, and just making it ANY [Combat] feat would be easier, but I was trying to be specific and explicit in designing the class ability.
I get a real "Wheel of Time" vibe from this. Lan is always practicing different styles.Ooh, nice reference. I hadn't thought of that but it fits perfectly with the concept. Guess I need to practice a little "Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose" and "River Undercuts the Bank" today... ")
Ah, once again I fall victim to not being able to read the OP while responding. I had the original quote in mind when posting, which wasn't actually your system, just the inspiration for it.
I'm not sure about tying the mechanic into an ability score. Like some others, I'm not exactly keen on the "swift exchange" feature, but it isn't horrible either.
Director of Games
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
And a swift action seems kinda quick to me. Why not a move, a standard, or even a full-round action?
I'm kind of with Rob on this. In fact I think I would just stick with 1 retrain with 1 hour practice idea. Retraining on a daily basis works for me but instant knowledge is a bit contrived,
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm kinda torn on this. I do like the idea that it adds more flexibility to the fighter, but I'm not as keen that a fighter could swap out weapon focus (long spear) one day for blind fight the next, and vital srike the following day, etc.
Also, would this add to the complexity of the class, and eliminate the "simple to play fighter" class.
An alternative to this would be allowing fighters to have any feats that apply to a specific weapon (weapon focus, improved critical, etc.) instead apply to weapon groups. This would give more flexibility to the fighter, without breaking the realism for some.
I'd also support a sorcerer like mechanic of swapping a combat feat out every few levels.
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Number 1 is probably the biggest improvement. Fighting thieves? Grab Improved Initiative! Fighting dragons? Maybe Far Shot! This option creates a daily balance, and eliminates odd situations where the fighter sits and twiddles his thumbs because he doesn't have ranged combat ability. It achieves some of the proposed system above, without "adding" anything to the class. Pre-built Fighters can just be assumed to have spent their open feat on one in their stat block.
Would the fighter still have to meet prerequisites, including feats?
Number 2 is a bit more difficult to book-keep, and might lead to confusion with prerequisites. This option is more useful over the course of a characters career, but as a one-off ability it has less value. If you make a 15th level character, the ability to swap out feats becomes moot as you do not worry about going through each level under threat of death.
Although I would prefer 1, the second option does have some value in allowing the fighter to stay alive at low levels, and then take more viable feats at high levels.
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I could work with #2. But I think that you are asking for trouble. Not all players are going to be responsible enough to track whether or not a pre-req is going to be dropped. Especially if the first option is used.
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Keep in mind if you want to rebuild completely all you have to do is take a few days worth of training, which makes more sense while still giving the fighter more options to find what works best for him. Also allowing him to get cool new weapons from BBEG and not be worthless with them because he never got feats for a sythe, or dire flail etc.
I have to say I think this is an awesome idea.
Wait a minute! Where does a fighter get to rebuild? Did I miss that? PLEASE tell me this is new to Pathfinder.
The ideas about switching a Feat as a Swift or 1 round action, or having a "mutable" Feat that has the same effect, seem a bit too much. A Wizard knows all his spells for the day ahead of time. Same with a Sorceror (for an entire level or 2, at least). You should not be able to switch out one of your Feats for the (potentially) THOUSANDS that exist in the heat of Battle. Allowing Fighters to do so would mean that some Figher Players would actually be keping track of 10, 20, 100 extra Feats that might be useful in some situations. Is a DM supposed to "pre-approve" each "possible" Feat a Fighter MIGHT want to switch into on the spur of the moment?
That said, I would be happy to see something more like the Sorceror "re-learning" for Spells, where as they rise in Level, they can replace one Feat with another one. This lets the Fighter not worry as much how their Feat selection NOW will effect their build LATER, just like the Sorceror can switch out their lower level spells at later points in the game, when they might prefer to have their lower level spells be more utility spells or buffs.
I would say that for every EVEN Fighter Level (every other level- this limits the exploitability of "dipping"), one Combat Feat can be replaced by another that you otherwise qualify for. About the Pre-Requisite Feats, I'm actually inclined to a different view, especially if this is more limited opportunity... (i.e., 1 Feat Re-Training every 2 levels):
It might be interesting to say that you can "un-learn" these Feats, and still retain the "higher" Feat: i.e., the Fighter takes Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack, then decides to "un-learn" Dodge, for example. Because you still need the pre-requisite Feats in order to take the "higher" Feat, you can't learn any Feat particularly EARLIER than you could otherwise (Spring-Attack, for example). Since the "Feat Re-Training" occurs at level-up, when you gain your new Feat, you can't Re-Train out of the pre-requisite at the same time you gain the higher Feat.
Although this would somewhat limit the power of Re-Training, if you drop a pre-requisite, you could say that the Feat Chain becomes "dead", since the HIGHER Feats still require the bottom ones, i.e. Dodge AND Mobility for all higher ones - Thus you couldn't "advance" any further in the Chain, you can only use the Re-Trained Feats for other purposes, not to switch out a "bottom" Feat for the next "highest" Feat in the chain, if that makes sense... This sort of limit on Re-Training can actually be implemented specifically to each Feat-Chain, with some "higher" Feats require ALL prerequisite Feats, while others might only require the "previous" Feat (so as long as you have the single previous Feat, the "higher" Feats would still be available).
If every Feat were equally "good", there probably wouldn't be as much demand for something like this. A system like this makes it so even if "equality" isn't 100% achievable, a Fighter can still make the optimum use of his Feats. I like it. I'm really surprised at what a great idea this is to improve the Fighter. Two Thumbs Up!!!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Thoughts?
I don't like that idea (nor do I like the feat swapping in the first place.)
If you are to allow feat swapping, there is a lot of language that should be in place. Language that requires the new feat to be take at the level the original feat was taken with the features your character had at the time.
For example, a Cleric that leveled from 1st to 3rd, then took 17 levels of Fighter could not swap his 1st level feat out for a feat that has a +1 BAB requirement. He could not do so because at 1st level he was a 1st level Cleric with +0 BAB and didn't qualify for the +1 BAB pre-req of the feat.
An alternate method to accomplish this is to allow feats like this:
Low Meditation [GENERAL]
Fighter 3rd level
Choose two fighter feats. You gain each feat, but only one at any given point in time. Each day you can choose to change your focus between the two chosen fighter feats. You may use these feats as pre-reqs, but if you do so and you change focus away from a required feat, then you lose access to the feat, class, feature that required the feat and anything else built on top of that feat.
Medium Meditation [GENERAL]
Fighter 9th level
Choose four fighter feats. You gain these feats under the same rules as Low Meditation.
High Meditation [GENERAL]
Fighter 15th level
Choose six fighter feats. You gain these feats under the same rules as Low Meditation.
For example:
A 3rd level Fighter with a 3rd level General feat of Low Meditation can choose Weapon Focus Longsword and Weapon Focus Longbow. Each morning he can choose to have either Longsword or Longbow focus, but never both. He is considered to have the feat for all pre-reqs of the chosen focus feat until he changes his focus.
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm going to go with #1, #2 is an option that already exists as retraining and even if they don't have a ph2 is easy enough to houserule in. Plus as a mechanic I much prefer #1. Question, will you need to meet the prereqs of a feat to put it in your swapable feat slot.
As a side note I'd go with one every 4 levels starting at 4th and ending at 20th.
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Wait a minute! Where does a fighter get to rebuild? Did I miss that? PLEASE tell me this is new to Pathfinder.
Keep in mind if you want to rebuild completely all you have to do is take a few days worth of training, which makes more sense while still giving the fighter more options to find what works best for him. Also allowing him to get cool new weapons from BBEG and not be worthless with them because he never got feats for a sythe, or dire flail etc.
I have to say I think this is an awesome idea.
Heh sorry, I was talking about "if this ability is added to the game then keep in mind..."
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Glad you liked the ideas. As to your question... I actually could see doing both. The two abilities actually serve very different functions that don't really overlap:
Option #1 is an adaptability power. It lets the fighter tailor, to some extent, what he can do each day.
Option #2 is a career-shift power, where as circumstances in the campaign change or the player reconceives what he wants a character to be at baseline.
I have a two concerns about prereqs, though, when we have what is a much slower rate of change for these options than the notion I proposed.
For your option #1:
I like the idea of dedicated 'exchange' slots. It satisfies the need for simplicity - if you like what you have, just keep it. Just as a wizard can prepare magic missile and mage armor every day (just as a general example), you can keep your same feats every day. You only change them when and IF you want them.
It also provides a certain cap on how many you can be swapping around.
I'm less sure about the inability to involve prereqs. I agree that you shouldn't be able to use exchange feats as prereqs for hardwired feats. I would, however, like to see you be able to use exchange feats as prereqs for other exchange feats.
So, if you have 3 exchange slots, you could train Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack today and PB Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot the next day or whatever. But, you couldn't prepare to use Dodge/Mob/SA and then use that as a prereq to get Whirlwind Attack as a hardwired feat.
Unless we greatly condense the fighter feat lists, to where each feat does more stuff (which some on the board have done, and I think I lean that way as well), this ability won't be as meaningful if all you can use it for is basic tricks. Just PA or just Combat Expertise. Handy, yes. But not what it could be.
So, I mostly agree with you here, with the caveat I'd really like to see the exchange feats themelves be able to do feat chains/trees. Not prereqs for anything else, but prereqs for other exchange feats.
(Note: A fighter could help 'enable' this option anyway by using hardwired feats to take a bunch of entry-level feats so they could more easily build off of them, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable tax for the fighter. It's a thought.)
For your option #2:
Let's say a fighter has Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Weapon Specialization (greatsword).
Now the fighter, in the course of his career, finds this really neat magic falchion and decides to use his class ability to rejigger his feats. So, he changes WF (GS) into WF (falchion).
What happens to WpnSpec (GS)?
1. He no longer qualifies to the feat, so he can't have it; but,
2. He can only change one feat at a time, so he can't change it.
Does he just have an "inactive" feat until the next time he gets a "feat swap" class ability (every other level, like sorcerers I suppose).
Or, does he have to, say, spend a hard-wired feat to take WF (falchion) as a new feat first, then swap WS (GS) for WS (falchion), and then work his way back down and later on swap WF (GS) for something else?
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For your option #1:
I like the idea of dedicated 'exchange' slots. It satisfies the need for simplicity - if you like what you have, just keep it. Just as a wizard can prepare magic missile and mage armor every day (just as a general example), you can keep your same feats every day. You only change them when and IF you want them.
It also provides a certain cap on how many you can be swapping around.
I'm less sure about the inability to involve prereqs. I agree that you shouldn't be able to use exchange feats as prereqs for hardwired feats. I would, however, like to see you be able to use exchange feats as prereqs for other exchange feats.
So, if you have 3 exchange slots, you could train Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack today and PB Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot the next day or whatever. But, you couldn't prepare to use Dodge/Mob/SA and then use that as a prereq to get Whirlwind Attack as a hardwired feat.
Unless we greatly condense the fighter feat lists, to where each feat does more stuff (which some on the board have done, and I think I lean that way as well), this ability won't be as meaningful if all you can use it for is basic tricks. Just PA or just Combat Expertise. Handy, yes. But not what it could be.
So, I mostly agree with you here, with the caveat I'd really like to see the exchange feats themelves be able to do feat chains/trees. Not prereqs for anything else, but prereqs for other exchange feats.
(Note: A fighter could help 'enable' this option anyway by using hardwired feats to take a bunch of entry-level feats so they could more easily build off of them, but I'm not sure if that's a reasonable tax for the fighter. It's a thought.)
Okay Mr. Bulman this is actually a perfect solution for my question and I am behind this 100%. Thank you for the idea Mr. Nelson (since I can't call either of you Jason, that would just get confusing)
Edit: also a caveat that you can use hardwire feats as pre-reqs for swapable feats, just not vise versa
Wow I'm already thinking of all the cool ways I can put that to work, OMG I didn't think any suggested idea would get me this excited about the fighter (which I already love as a class)
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1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingGlad you liked the ideas. As to your question... I actually could see doing both. The two abilities actually serve very different functions that don't really overlap:
Option #1 is an adaptability power. It lets the fighter tailor, to some extent, what he can do each day.
Option #2 is a career-shift power, where as circumstances in the campaign change or the player reconceives what he wants a character to be at baseline.
What Jason (Nelson) said. I think they're both good options, but they do serve different functions. It all depends on what sort of ability you want to give the fighter.
I personally lean more towards #2, because it's not a new mechanic (the sorcerer uses the same mechanics to switch out old spells), and I'm a fan of parallel design. If you can use the same mechanic for two different things, then do it - more simplicity, less rules to to learn.
But Jason (Nelson again) brought up a very good point about #2 - feats that are chained as prerequisites. His example is a good one. I'd like to think there's some way to get around that. I'll need more time to think it through to see if I can come up with a solution, but I think it does need to be addressed.
I really like option 1, Jason (the second options probably should be used as well, but less often than a sorcerer of course) I would love to see a bit more strategy with what is supposed to be the most tactically cunning of the martial classes and I think this would most assuredly do so.
Thanks you OP for approval ^^
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's really hard to wrap one's mind around the idea that we consciously decide to forget something learnt and learn something new.
Sorcerers may be capable of realigning spell patterns burnt into their minds. Wizards could choose not to store power in magical incantations. Clerics could fail to fulfil prerequisites for various spells. And so, selective amnesia on demand for fighters does not seem feasible.
Or you could say Sor/Wiz/Clr just forgot how to cast sleep or find traps. You are using your creativity to come up with reasons why the Sor/Wiz/Clr (and really, it's ONLY the Sor/Brd - there is no mechanic for Wiz/Clr to 'forget' spells that I recall).
I don't think I'd qualify it as forgetting anything, really.
Begin with the assumption that the fighter knows the basic method of HOW to do every fighter feat out there. They know how to do ranged combat, they know how to do mounted combat, TWF, THF, SAB, unarmed, and every other kind of thing you can imagine.
BUT...
In order to gain the game-mechanical benefit of a certain set of feats they need to PRACTICE them that day. Refresh their memory, hone their skills, whatever, because only when you are regularly practicing does your skill in those tricks rise to the level of "gains the benefit of a feat."
Add another layer:
1. A fighter's permanent feats are the things he has absolutely stone-cold mastered.
2. A fighter's 'exchange feats' are things he knows how to do but is generally out of practice on them and so has to spend an hour re-familiarizing himself with the skills in order to use them that day.
But even with #1, you could let a skill lapse. Some things you put down and you can pick back up again. Other things you can't.
Ever open your mouth to sing a song you thought you knew, but you can't remember all the words halfway through, or you have the words but can't quite remember the nodes or the rhythm? I've sung with numerous choirs over the last 20 years, and I've had that happen lots of times, and I have a pretty good memory for music. Those would be songs I thought I had cold, so like #1 above.
Other songs, ones that I mostly know and could buff up and sing with a little preparation, would be like #2. They're not ones that I know Know KNOW, but I could get them into shape well enough to sing them with some effort, but unless I kept up with them regularly (practicing each day) I wouldn't hold onto them.
Consider a fighter's repertoire like a singer's then, and see if that feels better to your logical mind.
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At the risk of being a wet blanket, I'll say that I'm against all of the above options, because a) I don't think they're necessary; b) it violates my tender simulationist tendencies; and c) I think they over-complicate the fighter, which has, and I think should continue to be, an option for player's who prefer a simple character class.
I'll hit c) first, because I think that's the most important:
I have two players running fighters in my playtest campaign. As it is, both agonize over feats at every level-up -- I shudder to think about going through that process every session, or multiple times per session. For both of these players, the simplicity (both in tactics and character abilities) of the fighter is part of the attraction (that, and being able to actively beat the @#$% out of baddies and creepy crawlies with lengths of bloody steel). I have another player who prefers the more complex tactics of a wizard -- he's mastered the spell list and handles the choices involved in relatively short order. The fact that classes exist to appeal to either of those play styles is a feature worth keeping, IMHO.
In reference to a), I think something like (as has been suggested elsewhere) allowing fighters to apply weapon-specific feats (Focus, Spec., etc.) to entire weapon groups they have Training in is a more elegant, simple choice for expanding the Fighter's breadth of combat knowledge and adaptability to changing resources (ie. magic lootz).
Finally, as for b), while I can grasp and appreciate Jason's explanation above, I think that, in practice, the suggested options will be used for more drastic swings in combat style. I'm ok with a fighter gradually re-aligning his focus from the longsword to the rapier, or whatever, but I'm just not down with a greatsword wielding, Power Attacking dude waking up in the morning, polishing off his shield and becoming a sword-and-boarder. Or "forgetting" Toughness and Iron Will in favor of Lightning Reflexes and Blind-Fight on the eve of a trap-filled dungeon crawl.
All that said, I could live with an option for occasional re-training of feats (similar to the Sor/Bard re-training spells). But why restrict that to Fighters?
I would have to say option 1. this is a good fit maybe gain one evry 3 or 4 levels.
I like both of the Jasons' ideas. With regards to Bulmahns suggestions I would like to see them both adopted. The floating feats you can retrain daily are an excellent way for fighters to gain some much needed flexibility. I've had a long standing policy in my group to allow retraining every 5 levels, generally the retraining I allow is more flexible. I would actually suggest opening the feat retraining up to all classes (maybe once every 4 levels) and leaving the floating feats to the fighter only.
I think they over-complicate the fighter, which has, and I think should continue to be, an option for player's who prefer a simple character class.
I can sympathize with this. On the other hand, the idea of retraining after a certain amount of time is fairly simple and offers the most benefits to beginning players looking for a 'simple' class. Generally these are the players who 'oops' when they are building their characters and later realize they took poor feats or didn't take the feats they wanted to qualify for XXX.
The feat pool is a little trickier. You can clearly just have beginning players stick with one feat and never rotate the feat out. This is likely what most players will do unless they come across a situation where they would need to adjust due to a weapon change or some new situation.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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At the risk of being a wet blanket, I'll say that I'm against all of the above options, because a) I don't think they're necessary; b) it violates my tender simulationist tendencies; and c) I think they over-complicate the fighter, which has, and I think should continue to be, an option for player's who prefer a simple character class.
I'll hit c) first, because I think that's the most important:
I have two players running fighters in my playtest campaign. As it is, both agonize over feats at every level-up -- I shudder to think about going through that process every session, or multiple times per session. For both of these players, the simplicity (both in tactics and character abilities) of the fighter is part of the attraction (that, and being able to actively beat the @#$% out of baddies and creepy crawlies with lengths of bloody steel). I have another player who prefers the more complex tactics of a wizard -- he's mastered the spell list and handles the choices involved in relatively short order. The fact that classes exist to appeal to either of those play styles is a feature worth keeping, IMHO.
All good points, but on this issue consider the following counters:
1. The fighter is no more complicated with such a class feature unless you want him to be. Take those 'exchange feat' slots, use them to take the feats you want, and never look back. Your feats are always the same, every day.
2. The usefulness of a system like this is precisely so that your players DON'T have to "agonize over feats at every level-up." I've played plenty of fighter-types, and you do agonize over those feats because you don't want to get one wrong. You worry that you'll take the wrong feat, or it won't turn out to be as useful as you'd hoped, or that you won't run into the wrong kind of foes.
Putting in this kind of ability takes a lot of the agony OUT of the level-up process, because you are not locked in to one choice. You CAN be if you want! You can build and stack your super-charger or TWF-maestro or whatever build and rock with your [xxx] out. But you won't have to worry about the fact that your particular build ends up being weak for the foes you fight.
In reference to a), I think something like (as has been suggested elsewhere) allowing fighters to apply weapon-specific feats (Focus, Spec., etc.) to entire weapon groups they have Training in is a more elegant, simple choice for expanding the Fighter's breadth of combat knowledge and adaptability to changing resources (ie. magic lootz).
I think this is also a good idea.
Finally, as for b), while I can grasp and appreciate Jason's explanation above, I think that, in practice, the suggested options will be used for more drastic swings in combat style. I'm ok with a fighter gradually re-aligning his focus from the longsword to the rapier, or whatever, but I'm just not down with a greatsword wielding, Power Attacking dude waking up in the morning, polishing off his shield and becoming a sword-and-boarder. Or "forgetting" Toughness and Iron Will in favor of Lightning Reflexes and Blind-Fight on the eve of a trap-filled dungeon crawl.
YMMV. I like it for the idea of a fighter being versatile, with an assumed level of mastery of the tricks of the trade in combat, or at least not being stuck with just one build. That's been my experience with fighters - you can build up to be really good at one thing, but if that one thing doesn't work for your situation... ouch.
I know you aren't quite buying my analogy before, and that's fine, but here's a different question for you, in counterpoint:
Do you have an issue with a wizard who usually uses one set of spells suddenly up and running with a new batch and being just as good at them as the spells they've been using all along?
[obviously this change is so vast it's never going to happen, but... ]
Should we require spellcasters to spend feats to improve their spells?
You learn a new spell, or perhaps a new type of magic/category of spells, you learn it at a base level. You wants its effects to improve, you have to spend a feat, or even several feats. Sure, some basic and important elements of your magic will improve, but to really juice your spells to their optimal level, you need to focus on them, perhaps to the exclusion of being very good at other forms.
Given the simulationist precept of the game-world, should we require spellcasters to invest resources in training particular magical forms individually (and groups) and independently of level advancement? It hardly makes sense for a devious necromancer to be just as good at blasting fire and lightning from his hands as the majority of wizards who haven't spent so much time and effort mastering the spells of necromancy (not super-specialists in blasting, but other wizards). Why should clerics be equally good at the vast and disparate array of magical tasks that they do? It doesn't really make sense, does it?
How would you resolve the comparative conundrum here of making the spellcasting classes obey the simulationist maxim that "you must study and focus to be good at a thing, and doing so necessarily precludes being as good at other things" that the fighter must live by?
Not trying to be snarky, cheeky, argumentative, or anything like that. I'm just very interested in your thoughts on the matter.
For your option #2:
Let's say a fighter has Weapon Focus (greatsword) and Weapon Specialization (greatsword).
I think a better 'fix' for this would be for feats like Weapon Focus to scale :)
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2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Yes, to the above! That's a great idea.
Another option. How about a 'feat surge'? A fighter could 1/day (or more, scaled by level), assume they have a feat they don't have for 1 round or more. Sort of like the 'heroism' spell or what you can do with Action Points.
There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly? It kind of sounds like, if you add these in, that the fighter is kind of getting a mish mash of "lets try this" abilities. To me, it feels kind of tacked on and clunky, and I really don't like the idea of "unlearning" something for something else more optimized.
Plus it reminds me too much of the Warblade from the Book of Nine Swords being able to switch his specialization around, which made no sense to me other than its more handy from a metagame standpoint.
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There are two proposals here that I find interesting. Although I do not think that allowing fighters to freely swap their feats each day is the right way to go, there is a way to make that work. Here are the proposals that I see as possibilities.
1. The fighter gets a special feat slot every couple levels (replacing his normal bonus feat). The feat in this slot can be swapped out in the morning, allowing the fighter to customize his package a bit. This feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for other feats or pclasses.
2. The fighter can swap a feat every few levels, like a sorcerer can with his spells. The feat that is replaced cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for a feat or pclass.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingHonestly? It kind of sounds like, if you add these in, that the fighter is kind of getting a mish mash of "lets try this" abilities. To me, it feels kind of tacked on and clunky, and I really don't like the idea of "unlearning" something for something else more optimized.
Plus it reminds me too much of the Warblade from the Book of Nine Swords being able to switch his specialization around, which made no sense to me other than its more handy from a metagame standpoint.
I felt the same way when I heard that in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 you gain proficiency in every single weapon at first level, I was like "why? that's rediculous". In the end, if you say that as part of his training he mastered all of those weapons, then why not as part of his training did he not learn to wield them well? and another example, why is it okay for the warmage to get his entire spell list the second he levels every time, when he doesn't have to learn and memorize the spells, and why can't that same explanation apply to the fighter. Don't get me wrong I lean to the simulationist side. But speaking from that side, this ability makes as much sense as having every weapon proficiency, so why not?
Well, except for exotic weapons, which he still has to burn a feat to learn how to use.
Also, the ability to swap feats doesn't just let him know a wide range of things, it also makes him "forget" the feat that he used to know. That's a little hard for me to reconcile.
On the other hand, I'm not really trying to change anyone's opinion of how this works, I'm just trying to state, as clearly as I can, why it doesn't work for me.
At the risk of being a wet blanket, I'll say that I'm against all of the above options, because a) I don't think they're necessary; b) it violates my tender simulationist tendencies; and c) I think they over-complicate the fighter
I don't have a lot to say on this, as it has already been said and I'm going to struggle to justify my opinion quite as logically as some here. :D But I basically agree with the stuff I put in the quote above.
There are better ways to boost the fighter (extra AoO with each iterative attack, focus applying to weapon groups etc.), this feels very clunky mechanically. Usually my players have a list of feats, they don't know which level they gained what and having to track that is going to be a pain in a$$. Also, the fighter doesn't feel as 'special' to me anymore, if these rules are used. The class goes from highly trained combat dude with a role the player chose, to 'access all feat areas' book keeping nightmare.
Frankly, if you spent years perfecting the art of swordplay, you're not going to be as great with an axe. This makes sense and other factors (high strength, full BAB, feats to be gained on your next level up) means the fighter can still do okay with their new magic lewtz. Oh, and just a quick mention of character specific treasure too - it can be cruel to give the sword fighter a magic axe, I agree, so why not just give them a magic sword from the start? That was what the 2nd Ed DMG suggested.
Peace
tfad
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At the risk of being a wet blanket, I'll say that I'm against all of the above options, because a) I don't think they're necessary; b) it violates my tender simulationist tendencies; and c) I think they over-complicate the fighter
As with tallforadwarf above, I completely agree with tribeof1 for the reasons already stated.
I can't add much to this, but thought I needed to add my vote, as the concept seemed to be gaining momentum, but try as I might, I just can't see it as a good idea.
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Well, except for exotic weapons, which he still has to burn a feat to learn how to use.
Also, the ability to swap feats doesn't just let him know a wide range of things, it also makes him "forget" the feat that he used to know. That's a little hard for me to reconcile.
On the other hand, I'm not really trying to change anyone's opinion of how this works, I'm just trying to state, as clearly as I can, why it doesn't work for me.
I don't see it as forgetting, he can get it back with a little practice the next day and it's not with every feat. I understand where you are coming from... and exotic weapons are silly to begin with, only about half of the weapons that are exotic should be. I'm a simulationist too, but the fact is the game broke with true simulation a long time ago, and if I spent an hour in the morning looking over a piano and sheet music, I could play again. but if you get me to a keyboard right now I'm going to be bad as all get out. in the meantime if I spend all morning tommorow focusing on playing the piano, I know that if I take a pop quiz on the law class I just studied for tonight, I'll probably fail because I split my darn focus, but I'll be able to play again at least halfway decently, 10 years of piano lessons do that. I see those few feats that way. they aren't the normal things he does so regularly that they are like muscle memory (although if a fighter wants them to be they can, he never has to switch feats ever) the switchable feats are the ones the things he studied and knew, but doesn't necessarily remember without practice.
The method listed by the OP sounds interesting [to me] from a gamist standpoint, but it really clashes with my sense of logic. If feats represent training and learning, then why would we be swapping them out every day? (I dislike 4E's "martial" power source for a similar reason.)
With that said, I could see fighters being able to take on different stances that might allow them to access different suites of combat feats. In this instance, I'd say the notion of having an expanding "feat pool" has a bit more verisimilitude. However, in that case, an 8-hour rest wouldn't be appropriate for changing styles — more like spending a full-round action to leave and re-enter the initiative order or something.
As for Buhlman's ideas, I think Option 2 (feat retraining) probably needs to be considered after some fashion.
I like the idea of a fighter being able to refocus their fighter bonus feats at level-up the way a bard/sorcerer can replace a spell known. However, I would say that it should be no more than 1 feat per level.
With regards to feats that are prerequisites for other feats, I'd say there is some need for flexibility in replacing feats that are lower on a chain. The main examples I can think of a retraining in a new favorite weapon. At low-level, a fighter may gain focus in the longsword, but by higher levels, they want to start replacing their focus, specialization, improved critical, etc. with the feats for their shiny new exotic weapon... I think there needs to be a way to facilitate this.
Someone else mentioned the idea of retraining Dodge, but still keeping Mobility and Spring Attack, while losing the ability to take Whirlwind Attack since they no longer meet all the prerequisites. While I'm sure there are some big exploits that could exist with this, provided the retraining is limited to 1 feat per level, I actually kind of like this idea (though as DM I'd want to retain veto-power).
In this way, a fighter could pickup exotic weapon proficiency at level 10 and replace their longsword focus while still keeping longsword specialization and improved crit. Then at level 9, they switch specialization to their exotic weapon, and at level 10 they switch improved critical over. In the course of a character's career, I'd say that's an appropriate rate for having to relearn such abilities.
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I disagree that this is illogical. (way less illogical and unwieldy than say, spellcasting ) it gives some of the good tactical flavor that wizards and clerics have, but MUCH more simplified. Fighters would get a number of feats that they could refocus every morning to better deal with that days challenges....simple. if this is too difficult...dont move the feats around. as jason said, it is very in tune with backwards compatibility (dont change a thing, its what the bad guy trained in for the day)
I would like to see some Fighter only feats that expounded upon AoO mastery, but I dont know if that is the way to go with the base abilities for the Fighter (a little too specific)
PLEASE make the Fighter SOMEHOW geared towards tactical thinkers, and more than sitting down for a half an hour, plan all twenty levels worth of feat expenditures, and then go brain dead and play the prescribed build for the next year.
how is the Barbarian NOT the class to play if you want a simple martial character...Im almost insulted that the Barbarian has more involvement to their combat to combat, round to round tactics.
Overall, this sounds like a cool idea, and something specific to the fighter (hell, I'd up the number to 4 or 5). I see no problem with it being 'illogical', what with magic and kung fu men outrunning cheetahs and nerds making fire with words.
I have played (over the course of a 20 level 3.5 game) to allow anyone to swap one feat whenever they get a feat (fighter or not- obviously it works better for fighters). It worked well. It allowed people who had made poor choices some recovery.
If you swapped out a prerequisite feat you could no longer use the other feat (ie if you had power attack & cleave and you swapped out power attack we made it you couldn't use cleave) so no-one did this.
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This has been brought up in Monte Cook's BoXM2, for the record. I think this would be an excellent change to the fighter class that would both expand it's capability, and maintain simplicity. Use it if you are comfortable, or just leave it alone.
I feel that it should be only for fighter bonus feats. Your standard character feats represent what you've learned in life. Fighter bonus feats represent the variety of skills you've learned as a fighter. Why not say he's learned a wide variety, and what occupies his bonus feat slots is just the style his is focusing on that day?
This has been brought up in Monte Cook's BoXM2, for the record.
Could you go into how Monte implemented it? (If it's Open-gaming content you could probably just copy/paste.)
I disagree that this is illogical. (way less illogical and unwieldy than say, spellcasting )
I probably should have said "immersion" earlier instead of "logic". Much like a lot of the features in 4E that are great for balance and gameplay, as presented, this idea just takes an adamantine hammer to my willing suspension of disbelief.
I think that it's overly contrived for a Fighter to "pick what they know" every morning as if their martial routines were spells. I don't think I've ever seen a basis for such a thing in any work of fiction except where it's a gish of some sort selection their "magical loadout" — not their extraordinary abilities.
Now if the Fighter was shifting between stances/styles by refocusing in combat, or after perhaps making a check to discern their opponents' abilities, that I might be sold on. However, something like that shouldn't have some sort of artificial limit on it beyond the brief period needed to adjust.
An appropriate fix should not break something as important as the sense of immersion. I'm pretty certain that I'm not the only person here who is sticking with 3.x rather than 4E for this very reason.
I'm still writing up a suggestion of my own...
Swapping feats daily is not logical at all ... there is no relation with wizards spell .. wizard has to know the spell and they chose just because they cannot prepare infinite spell ... fighters can use all their feats anytime without memory limit ... so they would excange feats for whic ones ... feats they never had got?
Find a strange exotical weapon and suddenly learn how to master it and unlearn at the same moment how to use the weapon they used till few hours ago?
Permanently 'unlearning' a feat for a new one every five level .. like a sorcerer, is just a little more logical, even if strange.
Besides, as a DM, i fear the confusion given by players changing their weapon attack stats every day ...