Director of Games
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Hi there Everybody,
As of late, there have been a wide variety of discussions about barbarian rage, both for and against the current system. As such, I have a few proposals for all of you to mull over. Please do not discuss the individual rage powers in this thread, as I am hoping to take a closer look at their balance next week. Instead, lets focus on the overall rage and rage powers system.
Of the following choices, which one do you prefer and why? Which one seems the simplest to use as a player? As a GM? Which one seems to over the most flexibility? Which one seems the most fun?
Option 1: The current system.
Keep rage points and powers working pretty much as they currently work. Adjust some of the rage powers for balance and add a few to round out the system. Add some simple guidelines in the NPC section for GMs to use Barbarian characters quickly and easily.
Option 2: Modified Rage Powers.
Keep rage points, but only use them to track rounds of rage. Modify the number of rage points to equal 4+Con bonus at 1st level, +2 per barbarian level after 1st (do not add Con bonus for later levels). Ditch the increased cost for higher level rages. All rage powers can now be used once per rage and no more than one per round. Some rage powers get level limits that say when they can be chosen. Others get slight adjustments to work in the new system.
Option 2a: Suboption of 2
As option 2, but rage powers can be used as often as you like while rage, but no more than one per round. Some powers would need a bit more modification to make them work with this, more open system.
Option 3: Rages Per Day
Go back to the old system of rages per day, but increase the number of them that you get. Some rage powers can be used once per rage while others are always on (this might be a possibility for all of the options) so long as you are raging. A few rage powers might actually use up one of your rages per day, but these would be higher level.
You will notice that changing the rage powers into feats is not really listed in any of the options. This is done for two reasons. First, I do not want to clutter the feats chapter with feats that only one class can take (since most would certainly have Rage as a prereq). Second, making them barbarian only feats just means that we are shifting away a class feature and making it a price to pay using feats. This works for the fighter, as feats are part of their basic class structure, but not for the barbarian. This is an area that I am not to interested in exploring just yet, as it tramples on the fighter's niche.
So... take a look at these ideas and let me know what you think.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I actually like the Rage system as it stands (Option 1) though there definitely needs to be some rework on the cost of the powers, especially in comparison to 'always active' benefits to other classes that don't run out of time in a given day of usage/benefit. Even moreso with other abilities that don't come into play unless you're rageing.
Though I can see where some do not like the added layer of management.
Option 2 would work I think rather well, with as you said some tweakings.
Basically, I like the options that the Rage system gives you.
I prefer option 1 with power reworks (though 2 would be the next acceptability).. the management isn't that bad from a GM point of view, especially if you give some pointers/guidelines for making barbarians quicker and easier. Hell, do what 90% of GM's do with casters "Hmm, this spell would be useful right now.. guess he has it".
From a player point of view, .... I'm sorry, it really isn't that much work to keep track of that shit.... if you're lost, write it out on an Index card.
Option 3: Rages Per Day
Go back to the old system of rages per day, but increase the number of them that you get. Some rage powers can be used once per rage while others are always on (this might be a possibility for all of the options) so long as you are raging. A few rage powers might actually use up one of your rages per day, but these would be higher level.
I like this option. It is the simplest of the three options in ease of use and book-keeping, the fastest, and the most backwards compatible.
With this option though, I think you would need a "clause" in the rules that allows you to gain the benefits of your rage in certain situations outside of combat that wouldn't necessarily expend one of your daily uses of rage. For instance, the oft mentioned "I get mad & smash in the door," scenario.
Perhaps something like: You gain the benefits of your rage for a number of rounds = your Con modifier when performing "x" actions, without expending the use of a daily rage, where "x" actions are out of combat actions.
With that said, option 2a would be my second choice.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I vastly prefer the current system. (Option 1) Individual powers might be a little hard to track, but as long as the player has some handy representation (coins, poker chips, ...), it really becomes not so much of an issue.
Maybe balance the powers a little more, and provide a solid "fallback power" that is useful, but simple enough for use with a large number of mook NPCs. Something that is not spectacular, but an easy 1 Point / round boost.
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Me and my players prefer Option 1 (the current system) -- it is simple to track and gives you a lot of freedom with your tactical options.
I would prefer *all* the classes working through Divine/Arcane/Nature/Rage/Adrenaline point pools (and to hell with backwards compatibility! ;), but maybe that's just me. :)
I have to mention (again) that some of the Rage Powers seem thematically a bit odd (e.g. 'Elemental rage') or mechanically perhaps too powerful, or stepping on the fighter's or rogue's toes (abilities to get +10 to either your AC, attacks or damage).
I like the rage points idea. I think a number of rounds per level would be good. That way if a barbarian needs to rage to smash a door down he can without having to waste an entire class ability use, and if he's multiclass he can stop raging to do something else with no penalty.
I would get rid of the fatigue after a rage as well. I've never actually seen it come up in play anyway.
The player I had that ran a barbarian did so because rage points added the option of being able to do some wild stuff in combat on the fly. Option two and three limit this greatly, and he never had any complaints over the point system, so I'm sure he would be on board for keeping what we have (albeit with some cost balancing and a few more options).
Personally, I like the current system as is, again, with some tweaks to cost and a few extras, etc.
I like the current system, but change is needed - option 1.
The basic idea is a good one, its just the the costs need to be rebalanced (lessened) and the levels of rage made to cost the same, rather than getting larger (which defeats the point of progression).
As it stands, barbarians are like economists, carefully planning out their points use, because rage is too precious a resource in the current setup.
This can be stressful and i am sure that many barbarians are choosing not to rage, for fear of spending their points at the wrong time.
Can we also do something about those "pretend temporary hit points". Managing those (especially when they vanish) is a real brain-strainer.
I would vote either for 1 (also ditching 'optional' Greater Rage), or 2a.
I think Rage Points add so much vs. Rages/Day, it's not worth going back.
That said, a major simplification I'd like to see would be with the Greater Rage/ Standard Rage at high levels.
Tracking two possible modifiers on your Character Sheet is just too much of a chore, and the "value" of having both options (cheaper/powerful) just seems too marginal, especially when Rage POWERS are so much more expensive, "economizing" on your base Rage is just superfluous. The 3.5 Barb gained it's Greater Rage "for free", and dont' really feel that would be "over-powering" at the level by which you gain it.
I agree with the small side-bar to give guidelines to DMs running them. Plenty of people WOULDN'T have any problem streamlining this for mass combat, but some DMs WOULD feel conflicted, especially if they feel they are obligated to run their game RAW, like for Pathfinder Organized Play. This would probably go in the DM section, and could also cover how other classes are best run as NPCs.
As for the Rage Powers themselves, if the Rage Powers are to be distinguished from Rage Points, I'd vote for something like 2a: I don't really see the logic in saying you can't use Animal Fury multiple rounds in a Rage (say, you're in a huge multi-round Grapple), while it's fine to use Animal Fury, Elemental Rage, Sudden Strike, Strength Surge... A more rational way to achieve that would be to limit the use of Powers per Rage, based on Level, but even that seems un-wieldy: I'd just prefer option 2a. I suppose one way to "balance" the powers more for that type of model, would be to introduce "penalties" you suffer for the Round you use the Power.
The big difference I see in separating Rage Powers from Points usage, is that currently after using a few Rage Powers in a Rage, the Barbarian would be Fatigued FOR QUITE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME. If they don't cost points any more, the formula pretty much reverts to 2 X(# of Rounds). I don't know if that's good or bad.
About the Rage bonus HPs, I've already posted two separate "fix" ideas, but I can say that switching to "official" Temporary Hitpoints is some-what over-powering, even without active exploit attempts like re-entering Rage as often as possible. Some-one in another thread, whose group was using Rage HPs as Temporary HPs, figured their Barbarian was getting OVER 300 hps a day this way. I haven't seen much response when I've posted about this, but I invite everyone to get involved with this subject...
So... option 2a keeps all the flexibility of the Beta system, but cuts down on bookkeeping? That sounds like a winner... I'd like to hear more.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Option 2a: Suboption of 2
As option 2, but rage powers can be used as often as you like while rage, but no more than one per round. Some powers would need a bit more modification to make them work with this, more open system.
I like 2a.
The work you've done here adds so much choice to the barbarian. A modification that reduces the bookkeeping just a little would be great.
MORE CHOICE + LESS PAIN = GREAT FUN
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I prefer the Option 3, for easy of bookkeeping and backwards compatibility. I haven't been a fan of Rage points, and my players find the extra math intimidating compared to the Fighter's "always on" feat approach. In playtesting, we used the following to incorporate Rage Powers (which we did like), though it could use some tweaking.
Looking over the Ranger Combat Styles, I had a thought on how to make Rage powers work with the “X/day” mechanic.
Rage
A barbarian can call on inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting him additional combat prowess. At 1st level, a barbarian can enter a rage 1/day. A barbarian gains an additional use of this ability every time he gains a Rage power. A Rage lasts 3 rounds + an additional round based on the barbarian’s base Constitution modifier. Afterwards, a barbarian is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to twice the rounds spent in rage.
Rage Powers
At 2nd level, and every other level after (4th, 6th, 8th, etc), a barbarian gains a Rage Power. These abilities are activated as a swift action. Only one rage power can be active in any round. Using a rage power increases the amount of time a barbarian spends fatigued by +1 round for every round a Rage Power is used.
At 2nd level, a barbarian can choose from the following rage powers: Animal Fury, Guarded Stance, Low-Light Vision, Rolling Dodge, Strength Surge, and Swift Foot (+10 feet). At 4th level, the additional powers can be chosen: Increased Damage Reduction (1/-), Intimidating Glare, Knockback, Moment of Clarity, Night Sight, Powerful Blow, Quick Reflexes, Roused Anger, Surprise Accuracy, and Swift Foot (+20 feet). At 6th level, the following powers can be gained: Clear Mind, Renewed Vigor, and Swift Foot (+30 feet). At 8th level, the barbarian can add the following: Increased Damage Reduction (2/-), Elemental Rage, Mighty Swing, Terrifying Howl, and Unexpected Strike. At 12th level the following can be chosen: Increased damage Reduction (3/-).
I personally think that a Rage Point sidebar (or vice versa) would go a long way toward putting this issue to rest.
Arnim: But how would an option like 2a be MORE math than 3.5's Rages/day?
3.5 still had to count # of rounds in rage to determine the length of the fatigue afterward.
Keep the current system my vote is 1.
rage powers need some work but are well loved. option 2 is ok I like 1 better
please by all that's holy don't go back to x/day...just ugh
I'd say option 1 or option 2a. The new barbarian has gotten some attention in my Beta playtest so far. The player likes it, and everyone else started flipping through the book to read up on the rules when Animal Fury first came into play.
Rage powers are not backwards compatible to the extent that you have to pick rage powers for barbarians, but that's the extent that I see a compatability issue. And with option 2a, generally all you need is to pick one rage power - the highest-level one. Maybe I'm missing something.
If I may add option 3a: Rage Powers/day
Give Barbarian more rage/day than 3.5 (perhaps 1/2 level + CON bonus to tie with the paladin?)
Rage / Greater Rage / Mighty Rage all cost 1 rage/day to initiate.
Rage last until encounter is over, or player terminates/forced to terminate. No count-down calculation.
Rage powers cost rage/day. Some possibly more than 1 use, depending on how "powerful" they are.
'findel
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Option 2a: Suboption of 2
As option 2, but rage powers can be used as often as you like while rage, but no more than one per round. Some powers would need a bit more modification to make them work with this, more open system.
This would be my preference. Bear in mind that although I wouldn't enjoy tracking rage points (as they exist now) as a player, I can understand why some people would. Accordingly, my major issue with the rage point system (tracking points) is coming from me as a DM.
As minor issues:
(1) I'd like to see Pathfinder keep the introduction of new subsystems to a minimum.
(2) I'm sure I'll get booed out of the park for this, but I like a little symmetry in the way classes work. Although I think the rogue went overboard in power, I like Rogue Talents, and would like to see them (meaning "a similar mechanic") for barbarians.
(3) Especially consider the role a typical player is looking for when redesigning classes. When I play a barbarian, it's because I want to hit things. Hard. I want to jump and climb. The last thing I want to do every round before I reach for my d20 is figure out how many points I can afford to spend to do these things.
As an aside, Jason, so far my group owns three print copies of Pathfinder Beta. Two of us subscribe to at least two Pathfinder lines. At this point, we're in it at least as much to support Paizo as we are to see the new D&D we'd have wanted. I can only imagine how ego-punishing an open playtest must be, no matter how good someone is at taking constructive criticism, so here's one voice helping you keep in mind that you've got thousands of people out here getting your back.
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If not option 1, I like this one:
Option 2: Modified Rage Powers.
Keep rage points, but only use them to track rounds of rage. Modify the number of rage points to equal 4+Con bonus at 1st level, +2 per barbarian level after 1st (do not add Con bonus for later levels). Ditch the increased cost for higher level rages. All rage powers can now be used once per rage and no more than one per round. Some rage powers get level limits that say when they can be chosen. Others get slight adjustments to work in the new system.
It becomes much more simple for players and DM alike. :-)
I am all in for 2a. Mostly as a DM, but even if I played a barbarian character I would prefer it.
If costs and effects of rage powers undergo a severe balancing revision, I'm in favour of the current system. Most of the options are available from the beginning but the effects are level dependant (so it would be quite useless to take just one barbarian level). It's a good compromise between flexibility and level dependant power.
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Option 1: The current system.
Keep rage points and powers working pretty much as they currently work. Adjust some of the rage powers for balance and add a few to round out the system. Add some simple guidelines in the NPC section for GMs to use Barbarian characters quickly and easily.
This option is preferred by both myself and my players though the costs do need tweaking a bit.
I must say that I never had the chance to playtest the Pathfinder Barbarian. But still I prefer option 2a over option 1. You've done a great job adding flexibility to the rage system, but written as it is, it feel a little bit too complicated to keep track.
Option 2a offer the same versality without too much book keeping. You'll need to set minimum level for somme abilities, but otherwise it looks great.
As for for Greater Rage and Mighty Rage, have them replace the effect from the precedent and keep the point cost the same as normal rage. Also have Greater rage reduce the fatigue time to 1x rage point spent while raging. I'm not sure about getting rid of tireless rage to incorporate it into Mighty rage as this one is a 20th level ability, and 17th might be to soon for Mighty Rage.
Yes, whatever we do, PLEASE make Greater Rage supercede the "regular" rage, and so on. Tracking 4 different sets of stats for high-level barbarian PCs (normal, raging, greater raging, mighty raging -- all with different 1.5x Str bonuses to damage and different Power Attack values due to varying Str scores) is WAY more headache than anyone needs.
So... option 2a keeps all the flexibility of the Beta system, but cuts down on bookkeeping? That sounds like a winner... I'd like to hear more.
I agree with this. If the point system is kept, I think option 2a simplifies it.
I still like option 3 the best if there is an additional rule that allows for gaining the benefits of a rage in certain situations without using one of your daily uses. (i.e. smashing open a chest/door, holding a portcullis up long enough for companions to get through, etc.).
Essentially, some of the rage powers change to always on while you rage (example: increased DR), while others change to being used on a round-to-round basis (example: Knockback one round, Mighty Swing the next), while still others can be used when triggered (example: Clear Mind, Mighty Swing).
This I believe would preserve the versatility that rage powers bring the rage ability, and virtually eliminate all book-keeping during combat (which is a good thing). The only book-keeping involved is: how many rages per day do I have left, and how long does my rage last? It would keep it simple for the GM as well.
BTW, math is virtually eliminated as well.
P.S. I must say that I see things almost exclusively from a GM's perspective as I mostly run games and rarely am I a player.
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Hi there Everybody,
Option 1: The current system.
Keep rage points and powers working pretty much as they currently work. Adjust some of the rage powers for balance and add a few to round out the system. Add some simple guidelines in the NPC section for GMs to use Barbarian characters quickly and easily.
I am for this too. I am currently adding all the rage powers into a program I use to run, and love the versatality and my players love the options. I do agree though, that the higher levels of rage should not come at a higher cost, but that the bonuses should just increase as you go up in level. It makes bookeeping much easier.
I vote for Option 1. My experience playing a 7th level barbarian and watching my son play a 12th level one leads me to believe there is nothing too complicated about the current system. The only problem we have found is a need to adjust some of the point costs and some of the effects. As an example Strenght Surge just makes the barbarian a grapple monster.
Doug
The Rage points mechanism is great, I like that it gives plenty of options for the player and the fact that powers expend your rage points makes it a self limiting system. So Option 1 is by far my first choice. The downside to this choice is it is more complicated for DMs and new players.
I think a hybrid of Option 2 and 2a would be a great compromise of flexibility and simplification. Ideally most powers would be always (or situationally) available but a few would be available once per encounter. I also like that both these methods ditch the variable rage options at higher levels.
Option 3, the 3.5 system of rages/day is awful. It's a big reason I've never cared for the 3.5 barbarian.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I can see good points of all 3 choices, but I think overall I prefer option 3, primarily because I really like the idea of 'always on' rage abilities that trigger whenever you rage (esp. increased DR, elemental rage, LLV, night sight, swift foot) and having some others that you can trigger once during your rage. Really, though, THAT feature is what I want to see in the rage system, regardless of whether it is keyed off of rages per day or rage points per round, or rounds of rage, or any other feature.
Similarly, from option #2, I give a hearty endorsement to the "greater/mighty rage should NOT cost more" principle. These are your class abilities, they should get BETTER as you go up in level. Spells do. Sneak attack does. Favored enemy does. Rage should too.
Rages per day is simple, but so is rounds of rage per day. I think the variable costing of rage powers leads some odd min-maxing of effect to value and complexity without necessarily a lot of gain in fun value. Of the listed options, I'd vote for option #2 or #3.
WHAT I REALLY WANT:
For the rage powers to not just last one round.
Some of them, that works fine, and you can invoke them once during the rage. The 1/round rule for that is superfluous because they are activated as swift actions, and you only get one of those per round anyway. Simplicity. For others, they should last as long as you keep raging. You drop the rage, they go away. You start up a new rage, they kick back in.
What I really didn't like about option #1 is this: The fact that all of them last only a round basically prevents you from using more than one ability at a time. Perhaps this was intentional, but it makes the barbarians self-buffs from rage much less useful than any number of spell buffs. We don't make the cleric re-cast the same buff spell every round to keep it going, or force him to forego his previous buff to put on a new one. We shouldn't make the barbarian do it either.
Right... except my 1st level Barbarian with 16 CON has 7 Rage Points, and would have 12 Points at 2nd level (which 6 sec X 12 = 1 min. 12 seconds) Seriously, if you don't use any Rage Powers, YOU WILL HAVE ZERO PROBLEM Raging in every single encounter. Most encounters do not last more than 5 or 6 rounds.
Although I stated that I could go with 2a, I do want to say that keeping it mostly the same (option 1, but collapsing the Rage/Greater Rage) would be my preference. I love how using your Powers more often is a trade-off against the time you can Rage. They're easy to track, though I feel a suggestion that some people like to use physical tokens would probably be helpful for alot of people. I liked what someone else said in another thread:
Since tracking Rounds of Rage was necessary in any scenario, might as well integrate it into the entire mechanism...
This I believe would preserve the versatility that rage powers bring the rage ability, and virtually eliminate all book-keeping during combat (which is a good thing). The only book-keeping involved is: how many rages per day do I have left, and how long does my rage last? It would keep it simple for the GM as well.
BTW, math is virtually eliminated as well.
P.S. I must say that I see things almost exclusively from a GM's perspective as I mostly run games and rarely am I a player.
One of the most annoying things for a DM is keeping track of the duration of the effects, especially when there are many of them. With a point system, each round is independent from the others. You have to keep track only of rage points (just one thing), instead of rages per day and duration (two things).
How is Option 1 more versatile than Option 2a? Option 2a lets you pick rage powers just like Option 1, plus it lets you use them as often as you want while raging! How is being able to use rage powers without having to worry about expending resources less versatile than having to spend resources to use them?
With option 1 you can rage longer if you do not select a power.
Someone mentioned Strength Surge as being "uber" in Grapples.
And sure, that's a major thing it's good for.
But because you can only use it ONCE per Round, and it only applies to ONE Strength check/CMB,
if you use to grab some-one, they will be able to escape easily, and if you use it to escape somebody, you won't be able to pin them back easily yourself. So it's self-limiting, while defintely being situationally useful.
I like it most for it's NON-Combat applications, busting down a gate/wall, ripping down a tree, etc... :-)
(btw, does anybody know when to expect Casmaron to be detailed more? it sounds totally Conan!)
One of the most annoying things for a DM is keeping track of the duration of the effects, especially when there are many of them. With a point system, each round is independent from the others. You have to keep track only of rage points (just one thing), instead of rages per day and duration (two things).
I only see this coming up if the GM is running an NPC that is traveling with the PCs, not foes that the PCs are fighting. In running a typical barbarian NPC against the party, you would not have to keep track of the rages per day unless the barbarian survived the PCs' onslaught (and even then, only if the NPC battled the PCs multiple times that day).
As far as duration goes, I can only speak for myself: I would rather keep track of duration rather than have yet another set of points (in effect each barbarian in combat would have 2 sets of points... hp and rp to keep track of). Duration of anything becomes easy to track if you have a combat matrix.. again, no math is involved. If an NPC barbarian begins its rage on round 2, and it lasts for 7 rounds, I simply note on my battle matrix for round 9: rage ends. But again, that is just me.
Duration of anything becomes easy to track if you have a combat matrix.. again, no math is involved. If an NPC barbarian begins its rage on round 2, and it lasts for 7 rounds, I simply note on my battle matrix for round 9: rage ends. But again, that is just me.
I'm familiar with the combat matrix instrument, but when you have lots of spells and effects with a duration to track, it's a real mess.
I'm familiar with the combat matrix instrument, but when you have lots of spells and effects with a duration to track, it's a real mess.
Agreed. That is a problem that a GM will always be grappling with.
Hi there. Just to stand up and be counted, I vastly prefer option 1. I really enjoy the system of rage powers and have no problem with the accounting, even at high levels and for hordes of mooks (where I admittedly simplify things as mentioned in other posts) or even the PC's followers should it come to that.
That being said, would it be over complicating matters to suggest making rage powers the "specializing" version? This would give people who didn't want to use rage powers a "generalist" barbarian type bonus whereby they got a small allowance of extra rage points (or lingering rage: get a free round of rage for every three spent in rage...)or something. I wouldn't necessarily prefer this system but it might placate some of the more traditionalist Barbarian players out there, while allowing others to retain the flexibility and usefulness of rage powers.
That being said 2 is pretty attractive as well, and would be my second choice.