There's no such thing as a potion of See Invisible.
I also think it's dumb to use a half-orc unless you really, really like wandering around in pitch darkness (and not using your cohort's Light cantrip).
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Ouch a 5 INT... dumb as a box of rocks. good thing this is only a thought experiment otherwise the cohort would have to do all his thinking.
As Hogarth pointed out, but should be reiterated as I see this a lot, Personal Only spells cannot be made into potions. See invisibility can be had with the Hand of Glory or if you need a good scout the Onyx dog...
Pathfinder beta isn't especially clear about what potions exist. In fact, according to the description of potions, any spell that "targets one or more creatures" is valid. Now, 'target: you' is targeting one creature (you), and the potion treats the imbiber as the caster of the spell, so it seems to be a valid potion under 3.P beta.
Well, I'd interpret it differently, but YMMV.
Half-Orcs happen to have a number of useful features (like +2 str/wis, and Orc Ferocity), but Dark Vision is useful.
I'd rather have the extra feat and a halfway decent intelligence. I also find low-light vision better than darkvision (for range) as long as you have a light source (just don't stand in the light; have an unseen servant carry your light source, or use dancing lights).
My major comment is that (in my experience) an optimized "solo" fighter involves staying as far away from your enemies as possible (just like your "solo" wizard did). That usually involves archery. I'd also max out Use Magic Device and take a wizard cohort instead of a cleric cohort.
But then we would get into the exact same discussion that we had when you were running "barbarian vs. wizard" comparisons: in your comparisons, it seems that the fighter is constrained to be an "iconic" melee fighter, whereas the wizard is free to optimize in various weird and wonderful ways that aren't "iconic" at all (ring gates, simulacra, running away and using a bow, etc.). I'll just agree to disagree on that point.
I'm not clear on one thing: where is the cohort's wealth coming from? Normally it would be a share of the leader's, reducing his total wealth accordingly. Although cohorts do get free xp -- that apparently appears out of the ether and not out of the pool of earned xp for an adventure -- I don't believe their gold appears likewise.
This generally isn't a problem as most adventures in my experience hand out more treasure than they're supposed to anyway unless the DM is being very careful to regularly audit and track party wealth.
Amen to that, brother. Even after paying for multiple resurrection costs, most prewritten APs have more than enough loot for PCs and cohorts alike.
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Contributor
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Isn't there a provision in Pathfinder point buy that prevents you from reducing a stat below seven even including the racial modifier?
I don't have my book in front of me.
EDIT: Otherwise, interesting build. I totally agree with your assessment of light pick as a good weapons choice. As a DM, I probably wouldn't give as much leeway in some of the decisions you've mad as you have, but for the purposes of this thought experiment, I understand the value of giving more lee-way to the class you expect to have a poorer performance, to err on the side of overpowering him than underpowering him.
I look forward to your results.
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Great work on this Squirrelloid. A few things I thought were missing from the build:
(1) Either a Lavender and green ioun stone or a Rod of Absorption (at 40k each, this will absorb 50 spells levels each, he should have at least one of these two items)
(2) He should have a custom "silence" item - either added to a ring or some other item
(3) He should have "speed" added to his boots.
I would sacrifice the fortification armor to help pay for this but of course that is not enough. Are there reasons why you didn't include some of these items?
The build looks good to me from a RAW standpoint, but I can't help thinking there is something missing (read as a trick or two to pull). I can't my finger on it now; maybe I will post again when I come up with it.
Again, thanks for this effort.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's because of a combo of not wanting to get into custom items which might get him shot down for that reason, and not having enough cash to cover his bases even with an item factory on his side, and other intelligent resource use such as GMW/Magic Vestment instead of blowing more cash on plain bonuses.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's because of a combo of not wanting to get into custom items which might get him shot down for that reason, and not having enough cash to cover his bases even with an item factory on his side, and other intelligent resource use such as GMW/Magic Vestment instead of blowing more cash on plain bonuses.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's because (a) he's not as used to equipping high-level fighters compared to high-level wizards and (b) he has some idea in mind of an "iconic" fighter which doesn't involve a sack full of potions/wands/scrolls/magic arrows of 50 different types/etc.
For what it's worth (not much), when I did some playtesting with a "solo" level 7 barbarian (in Alpha), I had the following stuff:
- tanglefoot bags
- potions of Prot from Evil
- potions of Invisibility
- potions of Enlarge Person
- oils of Bless Weapon
- oils of Curse Weapon
- potions of Delay Poison
- a potion of Fly
- oils of Silence
And that's just for level 7.
Another major omission is a mount (an obsidian steed is particularly nice).
The cleric cohort saves on bags of overpriced consumables. The steed is a normal heavy warhorse in terms of durability, aka a single hit kills it.
The cleric cohort saves on bags of overpriced consumables. The steed is a normal heavy warhorse in terms of durability, aka a single hit kills it.
But until then, it's a 24-hour Ethereal Jaunt spell.
Isn't there a provision in Pathfinder point buy that prevents you from reducing a stat below seven even including the racial modifier?
That is a rule for Pathfinder Society character creation.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Isn't there a provision in Pathfinder point buy that prevents you from reducing a stat below seven even including the racial modifier?That is a rule for Pathfinder Society character creation.That may be the stupidest rule I've ever heard of...
(Ok, I exaggerate, but why would you possibly implement such a thing? '6' is a common stat for races with a -2 penalty ('5' in 3.P), and it should be. Stat minimums mean that races which are supposed to be exceptionally bad at a particular attribute aren't, because they've got the same minimum as everyone else)
It's to make well balanced characters. You don't have to crank your primary stat as high as possible at creation. Sure some people might say you'd be dumb not to, but I imagine the average player would rather have a bonus over more stats than one really high one, I do.
As you can't train the Obsidian Steed, it can't air walk. (Only specially trained mounts can air walk.)
It's not for flying around on, it's for being ethereal as much as you like all day.
You could still fly using Overland Flight, though. (Presumably you could come up with some bizarre argument that it can't fly even though it has the ability to use Overland Flight, but that would be just perverse.) Not to mention that having a mount gives you the equivalent of the Shot on the Run feat (sort of).
Isn't there a provision in Pathfinder point buy that prevents you from reducing a stat below seven even including the racial modifier?That is a rule for Pathfinder Society character creation.That may be the stupidest rule I've ever heard of...
(Ok, I exaggerate, but why would you possibly implement such a thing? '6' is a common stat for races with a -2 penalty ('5' in 3.P), and it should be. Stat minimums mean that races which are supposed to be exceptionally bad at a particular attribute aren't, because they've got the same minimum as everyone else)
It may be to avoid people ignoring the penalty to less necessary ability scores while getting as many points as they can to increase their other ability scores.
However, I do not see the same rule in the Beta and so it only applies to those who make characters for organized play.
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wrote an explanation of why he chose what he did
I understand your points, thanks for the response. I was just wondering if you considered the items. I tried to see what I would give up for the items I suggested and it always came down to the scarab and the fortification, and I can see why you chose those items.
Let the playtest begin!
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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As you can't train the Obsidian Steed, it can't air walk. (Only specially trained mounts can air walk.)
Why couldn't you train it? It's treated as a heavy warhorse, which you can train; ipso facto, you can train it. Sure, it would take time, but we are creating a high-level character; just as your cleric cohort has infinite time to craft magic items, your PC has infinite time to train his warhorse.
I'd also recommend having a weapon that can sunder (since we all know that in D&D a metal pick can't break through a stone wall, but a wooden club can :-).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Squirrelloid:
Any exotic materials used for the melee weapons or arrows?
Or any Silversheen carried?
Edit:
Silversheen being a wondrous item with no pre-requisites other than the CWI Feat and the cash to craft it.Don't need exotic materials for the most part - +3 enhancement automatically qualifies as most materials for the beta iirc. Someone tell me if I'm wrong, because I was assuming that when writing up the character, and I forget where in the beta I saw that.
One of the picks does acid damage and sonic damage on a critical - I'm pretty sure that makes for a great tunneling implement. And as to picks not being able to break down a wall... *scratch head*... wtf?
I'd also recommend having a weapon that can sunder (since we all know that in D&D a metal pick can't break through a stone wall, but a wooden club can :-).
The idea there is that a pick doesn't do enough damage on its own to get over the wall's hardness. You can get around it with Power Attack, of course, and I seem to recall seeing a rule someplace (though I can't find it now that I'm looking for it) in the SRD or PF that states that specific weapons are particularly good for attacking certain kinds of objects (and names axes vs. wooden doors and picks vs. stone walls as specific examples) and ignore hardness.
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You make the Obsidian Steed sound very appealing. I'll take a look. Etherealness is cool. Where am I supposed to get Overland Flight from with a Cleric cohort, however? (Reasonably sure its just a S/W spell).
Don't need OF to craft the item. Here are the prereqs from the SRD:
Strong conjuration and transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects, etherealness, fly, plane shift; Price 28,500 gp.
Looks like regular fly is your tougher nut to crack. You could buy scrolls of it and UMD, or you could pay an NPC caster to assist by casting the spell.
Or you could bite the bullet and just buy the darn thing straight up.
One of the picks does acid damage and sonic damage on a critical - I'm pretty sure that makes for a great tunneling implement. And as to picks not being able to break down a wall... *scratch head*... wtf?
I'd also recommend having a weapon that can sunder (since we all know that in D&D a metal pick can't break through a stone wall, but a wooden club can :-).
You can only sunder with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. Actually, Pathfinder says "Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon", so you're probably safe for wall-excavation duty. But it doesn't help with the sunder combat maneuver.
The idea of having a thundering light pick seems bizarre to me. A 1/10 chance of doing 3d8 damage? Whoopee. I'd still go with a two-handed weapon + armor spikes if you want to do TWF.
You make the Obsidian Steed sound very appealing. I'll take a look. Etherealness is cool. Where am I supposed to get Overland Flight from with a Cleric cohort, however? (Reasonably sure its just a S/W spell).
That's one of the abilities of an Obsidian Steed.
Don't need exotic materials for the most part - +3 enhancement automatically qualifies as most materials for the beta iirc. Someone tell me if I'm wrong, because I was assuming that when writing up the character, and I forget where in the beta I saw that.
Greater Magic Weapon specifically doesn't count towards breaching DR, though.
[analysis snipped] Ie, if there's any weapon its worth putting on, this is one of them.
My point is that it's not worth it. I'd rather have Spell Storing or Merciful (say).
And sundering in combat is bad tactics - you're destroying treasure that you would otherwise gain at the end of the combat. Furthermore, you have to pass a CMB check, which is stupidly hard because it uses 15+CMB as its DC, not 10+CMB like it should. Thanks, but no thanks.
Sundering expensive treasure is bad tactics. Summoning spell component pouches, holy symbols, backpacks, quivers of arrows, scrolls, potions, etc. has worked well for me in the past, though.
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[analysis snipped] Ie, if there's any weapon its worth putting on, this is one of them.My point is that it's not worth it. I'd rather have Spell Storing or Merciful (say).
And sundering in combat is bad tactics - you're destroying treasure that you would otherwise gain at the end of the combat. Furthermore, you have to pass a CMB check, which is stupidly hard because it uses 15+CMB as its DC, not 10+CMB like it should. Thanks, but no thanks.Sundering expensive treasure is bad tactics. Summoning spell component pouches, holy symbols, backpacks, quivers of arrows, scrolls, potions, etc. has worked well for me in the past, though.
And to point this out again, mending will allow your cleric cohort to fix most items that haven't been destroyed. Sunder also allows you to inflict the "broken" condition.
The cheap items could easily exist in multiples which just makes attacking them a waste of an action.
If the item is damaged but not destroyed, what was the point of wasting actions attacking it, and not sundering the enemies' face?
Anyways, I'd personally take something like Vicious, since I have a Cleric following me around anyways eating 1d6 to self isn't so bad (and almost certainly less than the enemy is doing).
And to point this out again, mending will allow your cleric cohort to fix most items that haven't been destroyed. Sunder also allows you to inflict the "broken" condition.
Yes, but the broken condition is not really that debilitating, IMO (except maybe for armor).
The cheap items could easily exist in multiples which just makes attacking them a waste of an action.
That makes about as much sense as saying "the enemy you're casting a spell at could be an illusion, so you should never cast spells".
Where is this hardness ignoring rule? The closest rule I can find only says that sonic & acid attacks deal normal damage to objects, which is not the same as ignoring hardness.
Sonic damage doesn't bypass hardness in general (at least in 3.5 it doesn't), although there are a few specific psionic powers that can do sonic damage that bypasses hardness.
Incorrect. If the enemy has multiple pouches, it will be obvious by looking at them. Seeing as spending a few dozen gold to counter something like that is trivial, there is no reason why everyone wouldn't counter it if it were an option at all.
If the enemy is an illusion, and you know it, that's a waste of actions as well. In order for your example to be valid, the extra pouches or whatever would have to be invisible so that you did not have prior awareness of them. Even then, as long as you have a rare chance to swing at them you're better off sundering their face.
I don't want to clog up this thread any more than it is, but just for kicks, here's my version of an "optimized" fighter:
Feats:
Skill Focus (Use Magic Device) [racial]
Improved Unarmed Strike [1st]
Two-Weapon Fighting [fighter 1]
Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) [fighter 2]
Intimidating Prowess [3rd]
Blindfight [fighter 4]
Dazzling Display [5th]
Stunning Defense [fighter 6]
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [7th]
Scorpion Style [fighter 8]
Leadership [9th] ==> wizard sidekick
Gorgon's Fist [fighter 10]
Medusa's Wrath [11th]
Vital Strike [fighter 12]
WF (Bow) [13th]
GWF (Bow) [fighter 14]
Deadly Stroke [15th]
Stats: S 15+3+6, D 15+6, C 13+6, I 12+2, W 10+2, C 10+2 [15 pt buy]
Saves: +17/+14/+10
Skills: Intimidate +26 [15 ranks, +7 str, +3 class skill, +1 cha], Perception +18/20 [15 ranks, +1 wis, +2 see/hear], Use Magic Device +19 [15 ranks, +3 feat, +1 cha], Stealth +20 [15 ranks, +5 dex]
Items: Amulet of wounding merciful spell-storing ghost touch mighty fists +0 [5K gp base + 60K in additions], Headband of int/wis/cha +2 [5K gp], Belt of str/dex/con +6 [45K], Bow of distance +1 [4K], permanent Greater Magic Fang +4 on unarmed strike [~10K?], wand of beast shape II [10.5K], obsidian steed [28.5K], golembane scarab [2.5K], cloak of resistance +4 [8K], handy haversack [1K], various scrolls (mirror image, invisibility, see invisibility, silence, shield, etc.), cold iron gauntlet, silver gauntlet, various wands (CLW, mirror image, shield, true strike, etc.)
Attacks:
Giant octopus form -- 3 unarmed strikes +24/+19/+14 [+15 BAB, +1 WF, +3 training, -2 TWF, +7 str, -1 size, +4 enh] plus 2 unarmed strikes +24/+19 [ditto] plus 8 tentacles +14 [+15 BAB, -2 TWF, +7 str, -1 size, -5 secondary] OR 8 tentacles +21
Leopard form (pouncing from surprise) -- 5 unarmed strikes +25/+25/+25/+20/+15 plus 2 unarmed strikes +25/+20 plus 2 claws +15 plus 1 bite +15
Regular form -- 3 unarmed strikes +25/+20/+15 plus 2 unarmed strikes +25/+20
Notes:
-Deadly Stroke + bow are used for long-distance sniping
-uses Mirror Image for defense instead of bothering with trying to get a high AC
-uses a wizard cohort (+ cohort's simulacrum) instead of a cleric cohort
-uses polymorph spells to maximize number of natural attacks (to get maximum benefit out of Amulet of Mighty Fists)
-Scorpion Style and Gorgon's Fist are complete wastes of feats, only taken for access to Medusa's Wrath
What purpose does the unarmed focus and half elf race serve?
What purpose does the unarmed focus and half elf race serve?
Half-elf is because I wanted Skill Focus anyway, and you get some other things on top of that (better senses, bonus to save vs. enchantment, elven secret door radar).
Weapon Focus (unarmed) is because I might want to use Dazzling Display when not holding a bow.
I also forgot to include another maxed-out skill (for favored class) -- add 15 ranks in Acrobatics.
You've seriously undercosted some items (even assuming crafting, +6 to 3 stats costs 72k (144k base cost). Even if you could buy 3 separate items without slot overlap it would be 54k to craft. You have it listed as 45k...)
Yes, I got those prices completely wrong. I got confused by names like "Belt of Awesome Physicality +6" vs. "Belt of Supreme Athleticism +6" (or whatever the hell they're called).
Amulet of Mighty Fists +0? What the heck - you can't do that with weapons.
Yup, pretty silly if you ask me.
Feats:
Medusa's Wrath + Stunning Defense is cute. I'm not convinced you wouldn't do better as a monk, however.
You could certainly do better with a little bit of monk, but the point was to build a 15th level fighter (only).
Is it just me, or is this turning into a race to the bottom to see who can become the most like a caster without actually being a caster. Why not just play a F/W/EK and get it over with already.
Well, we had this discussion before. A viable solo fighter-type character has to be a bit of a spellcaster because there are things that only a spellcaster can do; you can shore up some of those weaknesses with potions and wondrous items, but not all of them. My conclusion is not that non-spellcasters are useless, but rather that solo comparisons are kind of dumb (no offense).
The wizard playtest had some merit because it showed that Leadership is a silly feat (I'd like to turf it and replace it with general rules for hiring henchmen and attracting followers a la AD&D) and that Simulacrum is a goofy spell (please, let's get rid of the idea that HD is a good indicator of power level) and that you can do some kooky things with Ring Gates.
BTW, are you sure Beastshape II actually gives you the animal's attack forms? The spell description doesn't say you gain those. (At least PAO would work because you actually become the new creature).
It's in the boilerplate for Polymorph subschool spells.
Best way to get off the ground is Wind Walk, off the cleric list.
Don't overlook summoning a Djinn either. With the one summon spell, you can get two plane shifts, and a wind walk for remaining duration, which will put you anywhere on the Material Plane in ~15 rounds.
For the record, I'm doing this mostly because I was asked to in the wizard thread for comparison purposes.
Understood.
People who asked Squirreloid to build a "one-man band" fighter:
- That request doesn't really make sense. The only way to be an "army of one" is to be a spellcaster (or to fake it via UMD, cohorts, etc.). And the point is that having a single character capable of being an "army of one" is a bad thing, not a good thing that all classes should aspire too.
- (My personal opinion, of course.)